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Pro Gamers and Carpal Tunnel

Forum Index > SC2 General
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1 2 3 Next All
Silky
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States260 Posts
October 24 2011 05:11 GMT
#1
Hey everyone! I'm watching Hero's stream currently and am wondering why he (and other progamers) haven't developed some type of RSI or carpal tunnel. I mean, they play for about 12 hours a day maybe more at 300 APM! Shouldn't the way their body works prevent them from playing the game after a long time at it? I know a few like TLO have gotten it; but how come others don't? Is it specified to something specific that they do? Or is it luck? What are your thoughts?
Have a good life
SeanShepard
Profile Joined September 2010
United States48 Posts
October 24 2011 05:12 GMT
#2
Posture & playing position are key to preventing carpal tunnel problems.
Boblhead
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2577 Posts
October 24 2011 05:12 GMT
#3
this is why you hear pro players advocate working out or outside activities. Stretching inbetween games. etc etc. If you stay active off the PC your chances of being in better shape is a lot better.
Silky
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States260 Posts
October 24 2011 05:12 GMT
#4
Anyone have a diagram of this "posture"?
Have a good life
HarryDresden
Profile Joined August 2011
United States59 Posts
October 24 2011 05:15 GMT
#5
Yeah, i'd like to see if i need to make any changes. This interests me. what kind of stretches should we be doing too?
Misanthrope
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States924 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 05:17:39
October 24 2011 05:16 GMT
#6
SeanShepard is correct. Frequent rest periods and proper stretching are also necessary. Many progamers do actually suffer from RSI or carpal tunnel. Like you said, TLO is one, MVP is another. Recently FlaSh (BW god for the uninitiated), had to have sections of muscle removed from his right arm, as they were overdeveloped and putting too much pressure on the nerve.

For some it is also a matter of luck, Idra said on SotG that he's been really lucky as far as RSI/CT goes and has never had any issues at all. My doctor told me recently when I brought up this subject that some people are just lucky with their physiology and are highly unlikely to ever develop any problems.

Also, what are you lfg for?

EDIT: guys do a quick search RSI, Carpal Tunnel, and posture. There are a few threads that have popped up the last year or two with instructions about proper stretches, warm-ups, and desk posture from health majors.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. - Benjamin Franklin
nameless55
Profile Joined August 2010
United States68 Posts
October 24 2011 05:16 GMT
#7
On October 24 2011 14:12 Silky wrote:
Anyone have a diagram of this "posture"?

Your spine has natural curves in it. Sitting is not a natural position for the body to be in, so an 'ideal' sitting position is one that has the spine in a state similar to a person standing and straight and relaxed. Use the google, I'm sure you can easily find a plethora of information with little to no effort.
Silky
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States260 Posts
October 24 2011 05:18 GMT
#8
The reason I'm asking is i have a minor case of C and was wondering what I can do to improve my chances of when going back to playing, prevent it from coming up again.
Have a good life
Silky
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States260 Posts
October 24 2011 05:18 GMT
#9
CT*

User was warned for this post
Have a good life
babylon
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
8765 Posts
October 24 2011 05:20 GMT
#10
On October 24 2011 14:18 Silky wrote:
The reason I'm asking is i have a minor case of C and was wondering what I can do to improve my chances of when going back to playing, prevent it from coming up again.

You can search up "ergonomic posture" on Google and get a ton of results.
theBOOCH
Profile Joined November 2010
United States832 Posts
October 24 2011 05:22 GMT
#11
Well, I do know that it's a lot more about how you practice than just the fact that you do. I'm a musician and I play drums, guitar and SC2, and I've had issues with tendinitis to the point where I had to stop playing all three for a few days. Carpal tunnel is actually relatively uncommon, but other RSIs are pretty common in small amounts and usually aren't chronic, that is they'll go away if you stop doing what ever it is that bothers you. I think that playing games and using keyboard and the like are relatively low risk compared to other repetitive actions. For example I only get flames when I've been drumming and playing games because the drumming is high impact. Most people, and most gamers especially, have pretty good keyboarding technique. The worst action you're likely to do is stretch between the control and number keys, but that happens relatively infrequently. Most players spend most of their time twiddling between their index finger and another finger which is a highly efficient, low stress action. Also, gaming in the keyboard hand is fairly dynamic compared to say, typing in an office scenario, so the repetition that leads to tension isn't as big of an issue. In fact, mousing can be more risky because you generally use the same finger in quick succession and your hand never changes position. Thankfully, as opposed to FPS gaming, RTS gaming isn't as mouse intensive. The most important thing, though, is that most pros are fairly relaxed in the handular region. Being relaxed is absolutely the best way to do anything that requires dexterity, so it's very hard to play well with a lot of stress. Hope any of that makes sense :D
If all you're offering is Dos Equis, I will stay thirsty thank you very much.
Gixxasaurus
Profile Joined January 2011
United States17 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 05:31:36
October 24 2011 05:28 GMT
#12
I have RSI, or carpal tunnel. But it has gone.

I played in Cal-Invite in CoD1 back in 2003-06 era. I played 80 hrs per week, basically nonstop 24/7 for two years. My right ring finger, and thumb from having a claw grip on the mouse (for precision aiming). I had to pick up MMO's (like Lineage, Aion, etc) because my passion for FPS made me not play very good with less finger strength to control the mouse super accurately and fast.

Now just by taking a break for 1-2 years of light MMO gaming, I'm back. But I've always struggled with it. Cuz I played TF2 at a pretty high level and started getting that weird finger nerve thing last year. So thats why I play this now. Got a new mouse (steelseries xai) that I think helps. IMO, the lightest mouse possible is better, so that it requires less energy to move it (pick it up, reposition it, etc). I'm 27 yrs old.

Two years ago playing TF2 my thumb was getting weak. So I quit playing as much (not 24/7); like 2 hours limit per day max. Then I notice my right thumb started occasionally twitching on its own very slightly. Kinda scary.


I type super fast (120-130wpm....same as Destiny) on a filco brown. And have used keyboard since age 17 heavily. So 10 years.
LazyScout
Profile Joined February 2010
United States223 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 05:37:37
October 24 2011 05:36 GMT
#13
On October 24 2011 14:16 Misanthrope wrote:
SeanShepard is correct. Frequent rest periods and proper stretching are also necessary. Many progamers do actually suffer from RSI or carpal tunnel. Like you said, TLO is one, MVP is another. Recently FlaSh (BW god for the uninitiated), had to have sections of muscle removed from his right arm, as they were overdeveloped and putting too much pressure on the nerve.

For some it is also a matter of luck, Idra said on SotG that he's been really lucky as far as RSI/CT goes and has never had any issues at all. My doctor told me recently when I brought up this subject that some people are just lucky with their physiology and are highly unlikely to ever develop any problems.

Also, what are you lfg for?

EDIT: guys do a quick search RSI, Carpal Tunnel, and posture. There are a few threads that have popped up the last year or two with instructions about proper stretches, warm-ups, and desk posture from health majors.

Idra is the player I always notice whose hands look so smooth and relaxed when he plays. He doesn't hold the mouse the mouse too tightly and presses the keys lightly and efficiently, so maybe this has something to do with it. I don't really think some people are just lucky.
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 05:38:31
October 24 2011 05:37 GMT
#14
On October 24 2011 14:16 nameless55 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2011 14:12 Silky wrote:
Anyone have a diagram of this "posture"?

Your spine has natural curves in it. Sitting is not a natural position for the body to be in, so an 'ideal' sitting position is one that has the spine in a state similar to a person standing and straight and relaxed. Use the google, I'm sure you can easily find a plethora of information with little to no effort.
Well I've sort of heard that a bit, but I've also heard another thing.

What you're talking about makes sense to use a kneeling chair, which is what I use (although it's not a very good one).

I've heard a fair bit that a chair where a person is sitting at 135° or so (as opposed to 90%) is an optimal ergonomic position. I would think it would be hard to get the screen aligned well with that position though.


With regards to the OP, a bit of it is genetics, a bit would be diet, and a lot of it is just proper excercising/breaks and of course proper posture. I hear women have a 3x higher risk of CTS than men.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Apus
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand74 Posts
October 24 2011 05:37 GMT
#15
Day9 spoke about some stretches you can do to help reduce the chances of picking up an RSI injury on daily #252 (fantastic daily for other things too).

Seems someone was nice enough to Youtube it as well: Here.
lastshadow
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States1372 Posts
October 24 2011 05:38 GMT
#16
A LOT of players get it, they just don't complain about it, and/or it goes unnoticed by the community if they ever do talk about it.
Patience is a small price to pay for perfection.
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
October 24 2011 05:45 GMT
#17
One of the biggest misconceptions in western medicine is this notion that carpal tunnel is actually caused by repetitive stress. It's a theory that, to be honest, does not have much of a medical basis at all. Truthfully, the most common cause for carpal tunnel is when a specific event like, a pressure fracture or stress fracture crowds or pinches the median nerve within the carpal tunnel. Surgically, you would have what is called a carpal tunnel release procedure, which basically just removes that pressure or crowding. After healing, it's not uncommon that it becomes crowded again in the future... this is where you hear about those unfortunate people who have their CT symptoms constantly returning.

I'm a doctor dealing with worker's compensation patients and a lot of people do try to make claims that typing has caused this, but you really have to be typing in a completely fucked up way to cause the kind of damage required to become afflicted with CTS. To be honest, riding motorcycles for long periods of time or performing construction work (like with jackhammers and similar things) is alot more likely to cause CTS than gaming or even being a stenographer for a courtroom.

Having said all that, some starcraft players are at a higher risk to develop CTS based on two major factors 1) unnatural movements. Some players will stretch out their hand way further to reach certain keys when they could realistically find a more convenient way to do things. 2) Diet. Having a poor diet for all intents and purposes weakens the tissue surrounding the carpal tunnel space putting you at much higher risk to be impacted by the pinching I described above.

At the end of the day, just know that 90% of the time when people say they have carpal tunnel syndrome... they don't. It is easily the most incorrectly diagnosed affliction out there... not counting psychological afflictions.
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
October 24 2011 05:48 GMT
#18
On October 24 2011 14:28 Gixxasaurus wrote:
I have RSI, or carpal tunnel. But it has gone.

I played in Cal-Invite in CoD1 back in 2003-06 era. I played 80 hrs per week, basically nonstop 24/7 for two years. My right ring finger, and thumb from having a claw grip on the mouse (for precision aiming). I had to pick up MMO's (like Lineage, Aion, etc) because my passion for FPS made me not play very good with less finger strength to control the mouse super accurately and fast.

Now just by taking a break for 1-2 years of light MMO gaming, I'm back. But I've always struggled with it. Cuz I played TF2 at a pretty high level and started getting that weird finger nerve thing last year. So thats why I play this now. Got a new mouse (steelseries xai) that I think helps. IMO, the lightest mouse possible is better, so that it requires less energy to move it (pick it up, reposition it, etc). I'm 27 yrs old.

Two years ago playing TF2 my thumb was getting weak. So I quit playing as much (not 24/7); like 2 hours limit per day max. Then I notice my right thumb started occasionally twitching on its own very slightly. Kinda scary.


I type super fast (120-130wpm....same as Destiny) on a filco brown. And have used keyboard since age 17 heavily. So 10 years.

Have you ever broken your hand before? If not, have you had your iron levels tested by your doctor? If its your thumb it is more likely that you are suffering from a recurrent pinched nerve
Meteora.GB
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2479 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 05:52:53
October 24 2011 05:50 GMT
#19
There's a lot of people and progamers who get RSI because no one is really educated very well on the risks of getting RSI/CST by having bad posturing on the computer. For the longest time in my life I had use my laptop at the edge of the desk with no place for my forearm to rest, among other bad habits. With my bad posturing throughout my life my wrist is starting to develop RSI. I just started feeling strange pain and weakness a week ago. You won't notice any syndromes until it hits you, then you need to either rest or see a doctor.

Some people just have either good posturing or take breaks during their practice session. Contrary to what people may think, progamers do not practice for 8 hours straight, balls to the walls without any breaks. Their session includes watching replays and observing/learning from other players as they play in team houses.

On October 24 2011 14:45 Jayrod wrote:
One of the biggest misconceptions in western medicine is this notion that carpal tunnel is actually caused by repetitive stress. It's a theory that, to be honest, does not have much of a medical basis at all. Truthfully, the most common cause for carpal tunnel is when a specific event like, a pressure fracture or stress fracture crowds or pinches the median nerve within the carpal tunnel. Surgically, you would have what is called a carpal tunnel release procedure, which basically just removes that pressure or crowding. After healing, it's not uncommon that it becomes crowded again in the future... this is where you hear about those unfortunate people who have their CT symptoms constantly returning.

I'm a doctor dealing with worker's compensation patients and a lot of people do try to make claims that typing has caused this, but you really have to be typing in a completely fucked up way to cause the kind of damage required to become afflicted with CTS. To be honest, riding motorcycles for long periods of time or performing construction work (like with jackhammers and similar things) is alot more likely to cause CTS than gaming or even being a stenographer for a courtroom.

Having said all that, some starcraft players are at a higher risk to develop CTS based on two major factors 1) unnatural movements. Some players will stretch out their hand way further to reach certain keys when they could realistically find a more convenient way to do things. 2) Diet. Having a poor diet for all intents and purposes weakens the tissue surrounding the carpal tunnel space putting you at much higher risk to be impacted by the pinching I described above.

At the end of the day, just know that 90% of the time when people say they have carpal tunnel syndrome... they don't. It is easily the most incorrectly diagnosed affliction out there... not counting psychological afflictions.


Interesting. I keep reading that RSI can naturally develop into CST if left unchecked, I didn't know that it was merely just a theory without any solid basis (or so I would presume). Thanks for the insight.
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
October 24 2011 05:54 GMT
#20
On October 24 2011 14:38 lastshadow wrote:
A LOT of players get it, they just don't complain about it, and/or it goes unnoticed by the community if they ever do talk about it.

It's not something negligible, though. MVP had trouble setting up his computer a while ago(forget if it was for GSL or MLG >_>) because of how bad the pain was, and I don't think it's gotten any better.


MMA's another person with wrist issues, but I forget if it was from a martial arts accident or from playing. I know he said during his GSL mini-doc that one of his hands become paralyzed if he plays for too long.
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