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On October 23 2011 01:46 MrWhompWhomp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 23:13 Shel wrote:On October 22 2011 14:37 Scrimpton wrote:
That's just... not true GertHeart you must know... you must know that just isn't true.
I can throw around random anecdotes that may or may not be fabricated too, but it certainly won't add anything useful to the thread.
A girl does something, she gets praised whether she did a good job or not, cos hey she's hot right?
A guy does something, he's a useless nobody unless he comes first in a very major event.
Must agree with Moskau too, the chance to shine is already there.
Female teams and creating infrastructure is really cool.
"I prefer to learn and train in a predominantly female environment" - Can't complain
"I want to have access to much easier money because i'm not male" - Annoys people
I hope you can see the difference between the two. Especially in eSports. Megumi, a 1600 masters at best, plays all day long with Strifecro, Destiny, Major, Ret, and a number of others. She got work as an interviewer at IPL, getting flown out there and put up in a hotel. She regularly has 300-1000 viewers on her stream, depending on who is on it. She moves pros around like chess pieces, setting up show matches because she feels like watching two pros play each other. Why is she able to do all this? Because she has a webcam on her stream and is good looking. Anna Prosser, zero gaming pedigree, no passion at all in her interviews, a bronze level understanding of the game, on stage in a tiny ass cocktail dress at IPL asking guys "how do you feel right now?" Why? Because she's good looking. Seltzer, on stage doing these incredibly awkward interviews, acting in an aggressive manner, and making completely inappropriate comments to the players and casters. Does she lose her job? Nope, she's good looking. Pretty girls in esports are put on pedestals. They're paraded around in their cocktail dresses at IPL3 or their tiny ass jeans at NASL (lindsey sporrer anyone?). They're used for publicity and to make the crowds tune in. But we're not talking about pretty girls here. We're talking about female gamers. And there should ALWAYS be a difference between the two, even if the gamer is pretty, like a tossgirl. When the sport starts using women who are players the same way they use women who are SC2 celebrities, the sport as a whole has failed it's female gamers. And don't tell me that there is a difference in male to female brains. Of course there is, but that has nothing to do with video game skill. The reason that men are "more successful" then women at video games is because men play these games at a ratio of like 200-1 versus women. And men start playing at a younger age. Exceptions, like my clan mate PMS Flo, who have been playing games competitively for years and years (she was a CS pro before she switched over to SC2) are not only able to keep up with the boys but are able to crush almost all of them. Gender has nothing to do with the potential for skill. Try gettin laid brah. I think this is great, anything to get more females interested/playing the game is a positive.
So you tell him to "Try to get laid" and then turn around and beg more women to play this video game, by any means nessicary...
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On October 23 2011 01:46 MrWhompWhomp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 23:13 Shel wrote:On October 22 2011 14:37 Scrimpton wrote:
That's just... not true GertHeart you must know... you must know that just isn't true.
I can throw around random anecdotes that may or may not be fabricated too, but it certainly won't add anything useful to the thread.
A girl does something, she gets praised whether she did a good job or not, cos hey she's hot right?
A guy does something, he's a useless nobody unless he comes first in a very major event.
Must agree with Moskau too, the chance to shine is already there.
Female teams and creating infrastructure is really cool.
"I prefer to learn and train in a predominantly female environment" - Can't complain
"I want to have access to much easier money because i'm not male" - Annoys people
I hope you can see the difference between the two. Especially in eSports. Megumi, a 1600 masters at best, plays all day long with Strifecro, Destiny, Major, Ret, and a number of others. She got work as an interviewer at IPL, getting flown out there and put up in a hotel. She regularly has 300-1000 viewers on her stream, depending on who is on it. She moves pros around like chess pieces, setting up show matches because she feels like watching two pros play each other. Why is she able to do all this? Because she has a webcam on her stream and is good looking. Anna Prosser, zero gaming pedigree, no passion at all in her interviews, a bronze level understanding of the game, on stage in a tiny ass cocktail dress at IPL asking guys "how do you feel right now?" Why? Because she's good looking. Seltzer, on stage doing these incredibly awkward interviews, acting in an aggressive manner, and making completely inappropriate comments to the players and casters. Does she lose her job? Nope, she's good looking. Pretty girls in esports are put on pedestals. They're paraded around in their cocktail dresses at IPL3 or their tiny ass jeans at NASL (lindsey sporrer anyone?). They're used for publicity and to make the crowds tune in. But we're not talking about pretty girls here. We're talking about female gamers. And there should ALWAYS be a difference between the two, even if the gamer is pretty, like a tossgirl. When the sport starts using women who are players the same way they use women who are SC2 celebrities, the sport as a whole has failed it's female gamers. And don't tell me that there is a difference in male to female brains. Of course there is, but that has nothing to do with video game skill. The reason that men are "more successful" then women at video games is because men play these games at a ratio of like 200-1 versus women. And men start playing at a younger age. Exceptions, like my clan mate PMS Flo, who have been playing games competitively for years and years (she was a CS pro before she switched over to SC2) are not only able to keep up with the boys but are able to crush almost all of them. Gender has nothing to do with the potential for skill. Try gettin laid brah. I think this is great, anything to get more females interested/playing the game is a positive.
I totally agree with this. If hosting a female only $5,000 event is what it takes to get a female gaming scene going, then im all for it! Why anyone would argue with this is beyond me. Some people just cant seem to get over it like its actually affecting them on a personal level. Just enjoy this event for what it is, and hopefully see it as a gateway for other female gamers to step up and start competing.
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On October 23 2011 02:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
So you tell him to "Try to get laid" and then turn around and beg more women to play this video game, by any means nessicary...
...
I didn't beg any women to play this video game. I simply believe that extending out to an under represented group of gamers (women) via a tournament is a positive thing for E-sports.
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Its really funny... Most well known girls are already out there have a name who can play well.. I am talking about Cadenza, Aurora and others.
One of the girls approached by this Hoax is a swedish girl who barely played the game.. one of her friends even approached me to help her out. No offense im all for helping out but why are they lying about putting up girls who are competitive when they barely know the game?
I wish they would clarify and tell us why they are sugar coating this when in fact girls participating is no one competitive and random girls who barely play the game or know about it.
I have been supporting the female community for a long time but this is simply outrageous and a hoax.
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On October 22 2011 11:03 seiplo wrote:
if i become a transvestite do i count as a girl?
Well... in Britain the answer to that question can be yes. Provided you've lived as a girl for 2 years (or can successfully lie that you have) and testify to a panel that you've had gender dysphoria (again, lie), then you'll be offically recognised as female, regardless of your actually biology.
Google Gender Recognition Act 2004 for more info. Not sure on the rulings in other countries althougth I expect most of western Europe is fairly liberal about these things.
On the actually tournament itself, I feel the intentions are noble (I hope they are) but the actual concept deplorable. Banning male players from competing is not the message you want. If you want to foster female talent then invest the money into getting some top female masters players into some decent coaching/team houses.
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Female tournaments are fine. Iron Lady's cup is a great example of that. But this tournament didn't have a qualifier. It's only 6 people. And it's 10,000 dollars. It is clearly a publicity stunt, not a competitive tournament. As such, it's using female gamers as tools and not treating them as skilled professionals.
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On October 23 2011 05:03 Shel wrote:
Female tournaments are fine. Iron Lady's cup is a great example of that. But this tournament didn't have a qualifier. It's only 6 people. And it's 10,000 dollars. It is clearly a publicity stunt, not a competitive tournament. As such, it's using female gamers as tools and not treating them as skilled professionals.
That is exactly what it is why do they claim otherwise?.. why a big facade when its clearly untrue.
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On October 21 2011 16:22 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote:
Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well! Well as you self say; We need to support woman into gaming and there is no argument to it, we can't get globally accepted with a demographic of 99% males. I don't enjoy most of the female clans/events being all pinkish and girly. My girlfriend hasn't joined any because, as you say, they're making a big deal about being female. People need to realize; There is a difference between supporting females in esports/gaming culture, and Making a big deal about females in esports/gaming or spoiling them. Supporting females is what Day9 does when he mentions that it isn't easy being a woman in esports. Making a big deal and ruining it for other woman is Kellymilkies dressing scandalous and talking shit about the esport scene, that doesn't support woman in any way other than making them into sex object and the "HEY LOOK I AM PRETTY BUT DONT KNOW ABOUT GAMIN"-myth that revolves around every woman ever in esports. I hope it turns out good ! Do wonder how they'll make sure people are female though as to stop smurfing by pro's.
Just one second there - KellyMilkies was approached by FHM Singapore, and that's why you saw those sexy pictures of her. Sorry that the outcomes wasn't what you wanted, but think about this for a second.
Think about how many women went to the "dark side". We're talking about women from just about every professional walk of life you can possibly think of. Tennis players, wrestlers, cooking show hosts...I can't possibly name them all. Yet these women have done modelling in some shape or form. Are you seeing these women differently due to these modelling gigs(in additional to their normal profession)?
If you are - let me ask you why you are not judging men this way. Come on, come on...you've seen the fragrance ads for men. Same thing. It's men who have modelling gigs on the side.
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On October 21 2011 20:49 Papulatus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 20:40 Morfildur wrote:On October 21 2011 20:32 Papulatus wrote:
Cool a sexist tournament.
What if a current tournament came along and said that only males are allowed?
I don't get the clear hypocrisy in modern society.... It's called "supporting the minority". Males are the majority, no special tournaments needed as they are almost all male-only anyways. Do you want all tournaments to stay that way or wouldn't you like to see some TossGirl mixing it up from time to time? That will only happen if we get enough women into SC2 so a big enough pool exists for some good enough female pros to spawn from it. That won't happen if we treat them poorly. Until there is a big pool of female players, they do need their own tournaments. Why do "we" have to force a large pool of females. Its cold fact that this tournament is sexist, and I find that repulsive. I would like to see TossGirl mix it up from time to time. Did I say anywhere that I'm against women competing with men? I really want to see that, but I don't see why aspiring females should get special treatment over males. If females want to compete with males, they need to put in the time and dedication like any other up-and-coming male has to. They then need to entire a tournament and get deep into it like any other male has too. I don't support clear sexism and hypocrisy.
You need to what understand that what YOU want, does not equal, what others want. That's a critical life skill that you'd best embrace immediately. I'll say it again:
It's not about what you want. It's about what others want.
And the sooner you realize this, and help others achieve their goals = helping yourself achieve your own personal goals.
You seem angry over double-standards...which are the norm in this lifetime. You are not saying nor suggesting that women start opening doors for men. You are not suggesting that all men stop being chivalrous, and suddenly devolve into horny ogres. Therefore, it's not a stretch for you to accept things as they are.
Why should women be forced to compete with men in an esport, when in "real" sports men and women are segregated as a matter of course. Well except for poker.
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On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote:
I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
yet there are many off-the-cuff tourneys that spring up, which involve bronze - plat players. you are not protesting the existence of those tourneys, right?
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On October 21 2011 22:33 whiteLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 22:05 TBone- wrote:On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote:
I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men? Well in sc2, men are practicing more, so naturally at the moment we are better. If you read the op it says the goal is to bring more women into esports gaming through a big prize pool. what stops females from practising more? so they can practice 2 hours a day get to masters, and have tournaments with 10k$ prize pools? lol
it's not money that your pocket will ever see - so why the objection?
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On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote:
Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
and how do YOU know, who should or shouldn't be invited? you're not running this tourney. holy sour grapes batman. just because your clanmates didn't get invited, you're all aggro'ed?
So you're effectively saying, no matter which girl wins this tourney, it means nothing? an all-female SC2 tourney and oh look, you're still pissed. Great show son
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On October 23 2011 03:02 VampireLady wrote:
Its really funny... Most well known girls are already out there have a name who can play well.. I am talking about Cadenza, Aurora and others.
One of the girls approached by this Hoax is a swedish girl who barely played the game.. one of her friends even approached me to help her out. No offense im all for helping out but why are they lying about putting up girls who are competitive when they barely know the game?
I wish they would clarify and tell us why they are sugar coating this when in fact girls participating is no one competitive and random girls who barely play the game or know about it.
I have been supporting the female community for a long time but this is simply outrageous and a hoax.
it's a real shame 
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Why should women be forced to compete with men in an esport, when in "real" sports men and women are segregated as a matter of course. Well except for poker.
Maybe because the physical limits of these sports make it impossible for the women to be competitive? The reason poker isn't segregated is the exact same reason Starcraft 2 shouldn't be as well, gender has nothing to do with the success of the player.
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On October 22 2011 16:03 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 15:52 GertHeart wrote:On October 22 2011 15:04 ampson wrote:On October 22 2011 14:27 GertHeart wrote:On October 22 2011 14:21 DaSakura wrote:On October 22 2011 14:06 Scrimpton wrote:On October 22 2011 12:59 DaSakura wrote:On October 22 2011 12:22 Bonkarooni wrote:On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote:
Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic. Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl. The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove" The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good. Go read some comments above, and after that you'll maybe understand my attitude: ''what a waste of money'', ''I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play?' By the way, I mentionned that I'm a girl just because I said that I'll participate in that tournament, so stop bming, I'm just trying to explain myself. Just ignore the guys like this :/, Having known a lot of gamer girls, they have a hard time online after guys realize they are actually girls quite often. Most guys treat guys differently, the moment you tell them they are a girl, the attitude changes towards you, they try to hook up with them, if rejected, then you are a shitty player and they call all your mistakes and count none of their own. I see bronze guys make fun of masters females saying they suck, yet they don't realize they are worse than the girls all the time. Here is some food for thought for you guys. If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, people are like "Cool, good for him that he is getting some modeling." if a Girl does it, it's "She's using her sex to get looks." Many guys fail to see the difference, because they were raised as "My daughter shouldn't have sex." while "Word, my son just got laid." Type of mind set. I was more raised by my sisters and my mother so I don't see this as much. What other people don't realize is, in business men will team up to destroy women first before they deal with each other, while women often don't team up with other women and try to fight everyone. The world is much more brutal for these female gamers. No matter what they do they are treated very different from guys. TL:DR A girl does something, she's bad. A guy does something, it's cool. Just felt like pointing out some logical inconsistancies here. Firstly, not all guys try to hook up with gamer girls upon realizing they are female.That is a sweeping generalization, and even the ones that do are usually idiots. Second, people make fun of more skilled players all the time, this is a product of general immaturity (EX: "Oh, Goody sucks with his 60apm" has been thrown around often by bronze leaguers.) Third: If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, he is NOT doing it to get fans. Nada has proven that he is a champion, repeatedly, and will have his reasons for taking off his shirt. If a girl does it and posts the pictures online, that is how she is selling herself (not as a gamer, but as a girl gamer). Nada doesn't need to take off his shirt to have fans. The business part is irrelevant and off-topic. (and are you shitting me? Groups of girls will absolutely wreck other girls psychologically for no good reason) The ONLY thing that could possibly make the world "brutal" for female gamers would be that they don't have any friends playing, but hey, I only have 1 starcraft friend and I don't consider it brutal. But hey, good for the girls in this tourney. While I wish it were an open tourney, I wish them the best of luck! And I hope they don't victimize themselves as much as you do for them, because with that attitude you can't be a winner. I find it silly that you are saying there are inconsistencies, when you yourself are showing exactly what I am talking about. It's her personality and she will get judged much more harshly for doing it. You yourself did it in the nada example the exact thing I said "Because he is a proven champion." It doesn't matter if he is or isn't. If you call one a whore for doing it, then call nada a whore too. I prefer to call both just being themselves and doing whatever they want. Also, girls enter open tournaments, just not many. But more and more will enter them because of events like this. It's a good start. What I don't get is, this doesn't hurt anyone and it helps to grow esports in another demographic but so many guys complain "It should be an open tournament." There are so many already, stop caring about that, 10k is a drop in the bucket compared to how much open tournaments have given out already. I wish you the best of luck and I really hope you see that you are possibly one of those guys who is "Tina, you have to be home by 7, son you can be home whenever." Types without possibly realizing it. The obvious discrepancy that you are ignoring is that famous girls in this community so far have an unfortunate track record of using their bodies to get fans and get some (usually short lived) e-fame, whereas a proven champion used their dedication and skill to get recognition. I hope you were ignoring the discrepancy in a vain attempt to make your viewpoint seem stronger, the alternative would be unfortunate!
you're not seeing the full picture.
If a female gamer is approached by a magazine to model for them, write an article about them - it gets them exposure. These women are not simply taking all their clothes off and posting pics all over TL forums.
If YOU were approached by magazine, and you claim that, you'd outright refuse, I see a liar.
In short, it's none of your your business how they claim their fame. They are here to play and that's that.
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i dont think its a great idee to make a female tournament
I dont think in gaming female are naturally disavantage compare to male..
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On October 23 2011 00:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
Oh.. and a question I was pondering in the last 'girl only event' thread.. maybe someone could answer it here..
"I just wonder (without any kind of hate - and it's sad that I have to even type this):
Are transgender girls (so the boy->girl kind) allowed to enter female only cups? I know, that such a person is banned from most competitive female only competitions - usually the athletic kind. To my knowledge, there is even a rudimentary test to spot women with an XY genotype even though they were never men, just because they unique hormonal situation gives them an edge over XX women."
i'm sorry, but this would be just complicating the situation. right now in esports you're either male or female. and please we really don't want to make the situation even more scandalous(remember that situation with that female runner who had to "prove" that's she's female via a humiliating genital examination).
So sorry but the only answer to your question, is a non-answer for now.
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On October 23 2011 09:22 Moskau wrote:Show nested quote +Why should women be forced to compete with men in an esport, when in "real" sports men and women are segregated as a matter of course. Well except for poker. Maybe because the physical limits of these sports make it impossible for the women to be competitive? The reason poker isn't segregated is the exact same reason Starcraft 2 shouldn't be as well, gender has nothing to do with the success of the player.
that's not strictly true, example, women's beach volleyball.
you can't be suggesting women to mix it up with men in hockey for example. Hockey is a violent sport by nature and pitting women in the ice with big, burly men is asking for trouble, not to mention the public outcry on seeing a male enforcer pummel a woman into oblivion would be sport-killing.
still, it's not a physical limit. and as for poker. google jennifer tilly. She has certain assets that she uses to her advantage to win tourneys.
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I'm predicting MKP will win this awesome sounding tourney.
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On October 23 2011 09:24 rza wrote:
i dont think its a great idee to make a female tournament
I dont think in gaming female are naturally disavantage compare to male..
but you don't mind female-only sports right, eg. women's beach volleyball, where no men are allowed(to play).
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EPT
