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On October 08 2011 01:48 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 01:42 windsupernova wrote:I don't really get it. Seriously what games are being taken into account here? According to this: http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=71.4 ZvT is roughly at 50%, P is suffering but its not as bad as people make it seem. 1.3 http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=4Is pretty similar with all races being at roughly 50%(yeah some are doing worse, some are doing better but lets be honest we have at least take into account current strategies) According to Gom in the current GSL(but oh well to be honest they are less games here so data may seem more extreme) http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=2011&leaguetype=20&leagueid=24377&gamever=0&mapid=0ZvT is currently at 52% PvT is at 33.3% PvZ at 39% In GSTL(which if we want to assume that korean Skill level is the highest skill level) PvZ is at 50% PvT is at 51% ZvT is at 55% I seriously don't understand which extra games are included in your stats to make it seem that ZvT is so high in favour of Terran when all those other statistics show that its evenish. And oh well thanks to the person who posted the BW stats. We can't really say too much about Balance when strategies are constantly evolving. And even if we take this stats as the ture ones why does it means that T is OP? In the ilovoov era IIRC ZvT hit 30% favouring T but strategies evolved and the MU was fixed. I am getting kinda tired with all the race whine tbqh. But I really want to know what makes the OP win% seem kinda different from the ones I posted? They're TLPD stats. So, it includes GSL, but also NASL, IPL, MLG, and other foreign tournaments. Unlike SC2charts, it doesn't include ladder games.
SC2charts doesn't include ladder.
From their main page
2. Why does the database not include laddergames?
The main reason is that progamers don't take it serious. The Battle.net Ladder is where they train their strategies, play for fun and try new things. Ladder doesn't really matter all that much and we wanted to focus on the competitive aspect which is why we limit the database to tournaments and leagues (as well as showmatches, koth and whatever there is).
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Well, I still think using your brain > any stat. I don't think TvZ favours Terran that much and I think PvZ favours Protoss.
But even if you only look at stats it's not that bad, people overreact as usual.
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Sad zealot 
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On October 08 2011 01:56 MilesTeg wrote:
Well, I still think using your brain > any stat. I don't think TvZ favours Terran that much and I think PvZ favours Protoss.
But even if you only look at stats it's not that bad, people overreact as usual.
At lower levels I imagine what you say is true, but at the top level, (THIS IS ALL JUST GUESSING WITH NO STATISTICAL EVIDENCE)
TvZ
Multi-pronged drops are just so strong against zerg
Faster reaction time to muta harass = less damage
Better marine splits - zergs do need to micro lings/blings but not as much as tank target-firing and marine splitting and whatnot
With ZvP
Protoss can deathball it up, but as level gets higher zerg can engage more counterattacks, harassment, etc. at the same time
Zerg can split army better, use nydus/drops/etc. to prevent toss from moving out
So I think as the players get more experienced, the game balances in a different way. IMO Protoss is by far the easiest to play at a Bronze/Silver level, because you just keep your army together and 1A into your opponent. As players get more experienced... yeah.
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On October 08 2011 01:56 MilesTeg wrote:
Well, I still think using your brain > any stat. I don't think TvZ favours Terran that much and I think PvZ favours Protoss.
But even if you only look at stats it's not that bad, people overreact as usual.
Well duh, actually watching the games and thinking about the games is better. Haha I guess you are right, people see numbers and form conclusions without giving it much thought. And yeah people tend to overreact a lot but it kinda bothers me because they discredit the play of the progamers "T/Z/P only wins because OP" "Z/TP only lost because UP" is such a crap mentality to support progamers.
At this rate we won't get legends like Savior, ilovoov, Nada, Boxer, Garimto, Reach, Nal Ra..etc, because when someone makes a strategy shift people only think now "hmmm is that OP? He won because of his race obv."
Such a BS way of thinking. Hahaha sorry for venting
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A lot of people are in denial that a problem exists. It is not a coincidence that Terran has been on top for 12 months, with over 10 thousand games a month factored in. Both Protoss and Zerg have spent a lot of time below 45% in some match ups, Terran has never even come close to that.
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Am I reading it wrong or is this international data only? (aka not Korea)
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Well.. I don't see how you could change this. If you nerf terran too much, only korean terran could win with them. But if you don't nerf them enough, korean terran will still dominate other races.
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On October 08 2011 02:02 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 01:56 MilesTeg wrote:
Well, I still think using your brain > any stat. I don't think TvZ favours Terran that much and I think PvZ favours Protoss.
But even if you only look at stats it's not that bad, people overreact as usual. Well duh, actually watching the games and thinking about the games is better. Haha I guess you are right, people see numbers and form conclusions without giving it much thought. And yeah people tend to overreact a lot but it kinda bothers me because they discredit the play of the progamers "T/Z/P only wins because OP" "Z/TP only lost because UP" is such a crap mentality to support progamers. At this rate we won't get legends like Savior, ilovoov, Nada, Boxer, Garimto, Reach, Nal Ra..etc, because when someone makes a strategy shift people only think now "hmmm is that OP? He won because of his race obv." Such a BS way of thinking. Hahaha sorry for venting
No one's saying that MVP and Nestea aren't dominant. The fact is regardless of balance these two are exceptional.
They're, however, considered outliers. When you look at the average Korean pro and realize that the Terrans are hugely outperforming the Protoss ones (and, to a lesser extent, the Zergs) you realize there's a problem. Even discounting MVP/Nestea I bet you'd still see huge discrepancies that are statistically significant.
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On October 08 2011 01:52 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 01:48 -_- wrote:On October 08 2011 01:42 windsupernova wrote:I don't really get it. Seriously what games are being taken into account here? According to this: http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=71.4 ZvT is roughly at 50%, P is suffering but its not as bad as people make it seem. 1.3 http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=4Is pretty similar with all races being at roughly 50%(yeah some are doing worse, some are doing better but lets be honest we have at least take into account current strategies) According to Gom in the current GSL(but oh well to be honest they are less games here so data may seem more extreme) http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=2011&leaguetype=20&leagueid=24377&gamever=0&mapid=0ZvT is currently at 52% PvT is at 33.3% PvZ at 39% In GSTL(which if we want to assume that korean Skill level is the highest skill level) PvZ is at 50% PvT is at 51% ZvT is at 55% I seriously don't understand which extra games are included in your stats to make it seem that ZvT is so high in favour of Terran when all those other statistics show that its evenish. And oh well thanks to the person who posted the BW stats. We can't really say too much about Balance when strategies are constantly evolving. And even if we take this stats as the ture ones why does it means that T is OP? In the ilovoov era IIRC ZvT hit 30% favouring T but strategies evolved and the MU was fixed. I am getting kinda tired with all the race whine tbqh. But I really want to know what makes the OP win% seem kinda different from the ones I posted? They're TLPD stats. So, it includes GSL, but also NASL, IPL, MLG, and other foreign tournaments. Unlike SC2charts, it doesn't include ladder games. SC2charts doesn't include ladder. From their main page
2. Why does the database not include laddergames?
The main reason is that progamers don't take it serious. The Battle.net Ladder is where they train their strategies, play for fun and try new things. Ladder doesn't really matter all that much and we wanted to focus on the competitive aspect which is why we limit the database to tournaments and leagues (as well as showmatches, koth and whatever there is).
My mistake. I thought SC2charts was something like SC2ranks.
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On October 08 2011 01:56 MilesTeg wrote:
Well, I still think using your brain > any stat. I don't think TvZ favours Terran that much and I think PvZ favours Protoss.
But even if you only look at stats it's not that bad, people overreact as usual.
Tell me the race of the person likely to win IPL, MLG (top 3), and the next 2-3 GSLs (caveated if there's another patch).
Blizzcon too though I would be content with throwing that tournament out.
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theres only 900 games this month instead of the like 3k from the other months?
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Hey, I'm looking at the sc2 charts site and I can't for the life of me find their database. I want to look at the database so I can look at for example the last 100/200/1000 games put in. Could anybody help me find it?
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On October 08 2011 02:19 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 01:56 MilesTeg wrote:
Well, I still think using your brain > any stat. I don't think TvZ favours Terran that much and I think PvZ favours Protoss.
But even if you only look at stats it's not that bad, people overreact as usual. Tell me the race of the person likely to win IPL, MLG (top 3), and the next 2-3 GSLs (caveated if there's another patch). Blizzcon too though I would be content with throwing that tournament out.
terran, terran (top3), terran next 2-3 gsls (tvt finals)
blizzcon: terran
after that: bunker time increased by 5 seconds
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On October 08 2011 02:24 -_- wrote:
Hey, I'm looking at the sc2 charts site and I can't for the life of me find their database. I want to look at the database so I can look at for example the last 100/200/1000 games put in. Could anybody help me find it?
The database they use is TLPD, as they have written under the chart(s)
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On October 08 2011 02:28 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 02:24 -_- wrote:
Hey, I'm looking at the sc2 charts site and I can't for the life of me find their database. I want to look at the database so I can look at for example the last 100/200/1000 games put in. Could anybody help me find it? The database they use is TLPD, as they have written under the chart(s)
actually it says otherwise in their faq:
1. What are those rankings based on?
The ranking is based on the match database of MyStarCraft.de which is a german website. The database includes all sorts of tournaments and leagues, also weekly cups (quarterfinals onwards). Right now the database is even bigger than the one on TL itself (even though it's pretty close). And of course: as we are german we are reliable! 
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On October 08 2011 02:33 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 02:28 clusen wrote:On October 08 2011 02:24 -_- wrote:
Hey, I'm looking at the sc2 charts site and I can't for the life of me find their database. I want to look at the database so I can look at for example the last 100/200/1000 games put in. Could anybody help me find it? The database they use is TLPD, as they have written under the chart(s) actually it says otherwise in their faq: 1. What are those rankings based on? The ranking is based on the match database of MyStarCraft.de which is a german website. The database includes all sorts of tournaments and leagues, also weekly cups (quarterfinals onwards). Right now the database is even bigger than the one on TL itself (even though it's pretty close). And of course: as we are german we are reliable!
Ahh. So my guess is the difference between the TLPD and the German Database is that the german database includes more games, and most likely a slightly lower level of play. Thank you so much!
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On October 08 2011 02:37 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 02:33 Tsubbi wrote:On October 08 2011 02:28 clusen wrote:On October 08 2011 02:24 -_- wrote:
Hey, I'm looking at the sc2 charts site and I can't for the life of me find their database. I want to look at the database so I can look at for example the last 100/200/1000 games put in. Could anybody help me find it? The database they use is TLPD, as they have written under the chart(s) actually it says otherwise in their faq: 1. What are those rankings based on? The ranking is based on the match database of MyStarCraft.de which is a german website. The database includes all sorts of tournaments and leagues, also weekly cups (quarterfinals onwards). Right now the database is even bigger than the one on TL itself (even though it's pretty close). And of course: as we are german we are reliable! Ahh. So my guess is the difference between the TLPD and the German Database is that the german database includes more games, and most likely a slightly lower level of play. Thank you so much!
how dare you
more EUROPEAN tourneys included certainly leads to slightly higher skill level if anything
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ZvsT and ZvP seem to have changed as percentages. What happened?
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Downward slope = Sad Zealot.
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EPT
