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On October 03 2011 06:50 Catchafire2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 06:35 ZiegFeld wrote:
Being a GM Terran last season, I'd have to say Terran.
As a Terran, the ball is ALWAYS in your court, and it's up to you to execute plays in order to win. The longer the game drags on where the Zerg or Protoss can up their tech, the more likely Terran is to lose. So being the dictator of the game makes it harder for you??? Gee, wish I had that problem. While i'm sure you are a good player to be in GM, have you tried ALL the races? Read my post. When It's up to the Terran to execute plays, the are ALREADY playing in a reactionary manner. How does that put me in a dictating role?
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On October 04 2011 02:10 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 06:50 Catchafire2000 wrote:On October 03 2011 06:35 ZiegFeld wrote:
Being a GM Terran last season, I'd have to say Terran.
As a Terran, the ball is ALWAYS in your court, and it's up to you to execute plays in order to win. The longer the game drags on where the Zerg or Protoss can up their tech, the more likely Terran is to lose. So being the dictator of the game makes it harder for you??? Gee, wish I had that problem. While i'm sure you are a good player to be in GM, have you tried ALL the races? Read my post. When It's up to the Terran to execute plays, the are ALREADY playing in a reactionary manner. How does that put me in a dictating role?
...I'm pretty sure that's not what reactionary means. Especially in the context of TvZ.
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Platinum Terrans are pretty horrible, I beat them 90% of the time regardless of race. Protoss and Zerg in Platinum do okay in comparison.
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As a Platinum in Random, the hardest race i find to play is Terran , there's just so much you have to do and i don't have the apm to do it...
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On October 02 2011 20:11 aksfjh wrote:
I too think a lot of people are misunderstanding the premise behind the poll, especially the last one. The conversation needs to stem from "how hard is it to make it to get promoted from _______ level of play" and not "who does the worst at _______ level." The latter is more of a balance discussion about the meta game, while the former is more of a general design perspective.
agreed except I edited it a little bit.
For me that would be
Z
T
Z
P
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There's too many "X can do Y cheese to Z league" posts. You can 6 pool, 4 gate, 3 rax to any league depending on your execution. It really just should be based around "standard" play.
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Terran #1 ez until Diamond. then you start having to micro. And then its suppposedly easier in Masters. w/e
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On October 03 2011 22:25 o)_Saurus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 20:56 sCuMBaG wrote:On October 03 2011 13:30 Black Gun wrote:On October 03 2011 13:07 Supamang wrote:
This is why I dont understand how Terran is harder at Diamond/Master level. Everyone says "Oh well its because Zerg mechanics are hard to learn early on but everyones used to it by Diamond/Masters." How the hell does that not apply to Terran micro? Ive said so numerous times, but I started out playing Terran. I was stutter stepping in beta and marine splitting by GSL2. In Diamond/Masters, yea most Zergs are good enough to have their macro mechanics down to a decent level. At the same time most Terrans should have their micro mechanics down to a decent level as well. With that in mind, why would Terrans micro somehow make them the hardest race to play in Diamond/Masters? its not only that the mechanical requirements increase drastically as a terran hits diamond/masters league, its that their whole playstyle becomes much less forgiving. terran units allow for the most amount of micro and they are very versatile. this means that given abundant apm/multitasking, terran has a very high potential. this is reflected by terran being the dominant race at the very top end of the skill spectrum. the downside of this, however, is that terran units have to be relatively weak if their micro- and multitasking-abilities are not used. because terran is gosu in the hands of mvp, bomber or mma, they must necessarily suck in the hands of a skillless casual noob who only knows how to 1a. or to put the same issue from a different perspective: terran armies are by far the weakest in high tech high food count ball vs ball battles. mules are very useful for players with macro deficiencies and the early game strength of terran means that the opposing player needs a certain treshold amount of skill to not die or fall behind massively against early game terran aggression. this is why terran is certainly not the hardest race on bronze to platinum level. once the majority of opponents has passed the skill treshold to enter the mid- to lategame relatively unscathed though, the lack of "raw muscle" of terran armies starts to become a huge issue. an issue that has to be circumvented by splitting armies, doing drops, multi-pronged attacks, micro like a champ in the big engagements and so on. this critical skill treshold currently lies somewhere around the diamond- to masters-level. the opponents start to have good enough scouting, game-knowledge and macro to enter a long macro game against terran on a regular basis, forcing the terran to actually showcase all the micro, apm and multitasking that their race allows for. forced to have and use the skill that, up to this point, wasnt necessary for terran to win games. suddenly they cant lean back anymore, they cant engage directly anymore. their whole tactical approach to any game that goes longer than 10 minutes has to change or else they are lost. and this new approach requires vastly more skill than what you could get away with against lower level opposition. this is the reason why, in my eyes, terran is the hardest to play on the (high) diamond - masters level. in my opinion, at the very top level, terran is the most demanding race, but also the strongest one. the terran race offers more things to put one's skill to use than the other races, so that terran is the strongest race at the top level. at the same time, you are forced to use at least some of the huge potential of the race to remain competitive. imho terran requires the most skill to reach its skill cap (as it is higher than that of the other races), but is also the easiest to win with IF you can come close to this skill cap. very well written. i totally agree. and that's the reason i switched to protoss. cause terran is SO DAM HARD TO PLAY -.- now i just have to survive ling enough and run over my opponents. up to top masters, there's nor much resistance in the ladder. so take i from someone who started as terran and switched to toss. after early game/early midgame toss is the easiest race to play (mid to high master). zerg is rather easy too as soon as you can wrap your head around the totally different macro mechanics (i play zerg in 2n2). You switched to Protoss but the last 12 (or even more, i just stopped counting) 1v1 matches on your profile were all terran ones. And how do you know you will make it to top master as protoss when you're still not master as terran? I'm not a stalker but you are in the division i'm playing with my offrace smurf and after reading so much sh** here i really had to look up your matchhistory. Just play Protoss and don't state so much ignorant lies here. Of course everyone wants his race to be the hardest to play in order to gain more respect for performing well with it but please stay calm and think before posting (and don't use wrong statements to underline your perspective).
Everything that he quoted was true. Terran is the hardest to play in masters because you need to be able to have high apm, multitask, and drop. However, this also makes terran the strongest race, because when controlled correctly, terran gains immensely.
If anything, I think you're the biased one here. Please follow your own advice and stay calm, no one likes little babies.
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On October 04 2011 14:35 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 22:25 o)_Saurus wrote:On October 03 2011 20:56 sCuMBaG wrote:On October 03 2011 13:30 Black Gun wrote:On October 03 2011 13:07 Supamang wrote:
This is why I dont understand how Terran is harder at Diamond/Master level. Everyone says "Oh well its because Zerg mechanics are hard to learn early on but everyones used to it by Diamond/Masters." How the hell does that not apply to Terran micro? Ive said so numerous times, but I started out playing Terran. I was stutter stepping in beta and marine splitting by GSL2. In Diamond/Masters, yea most Zergs are good enough to have their macro mechanics down to a decent level. At the same time most Terrans should have their micro mechanics down to a decent level as well. With that in mind, why would Terrans micro somehow make them the hardest race to play in Diamond/Masters? its not only that the mechanical requirements increase drastically as a terran hits diamond/masters league, its that their whole playstyle becomes much less forgiving. terran units allow for the most amount of micro and they are very versatile. this means that given abundant apm/multitasking, terran has a very high potential. this is reflected by terran being the dominant race at the very top end of the skill spectrum. the downside of this, however, is that terran units have to be relatively weak if their micro- and multitasking-abilities are not used. because terran is gosu in the hands of mvp, bomber or mma, they must necessarily suck in the hands of a skillless casual noob who only knows how to 1a. or to put the same issue from a different perspective: terran armies are by far the weakest in high tech high food count ball vs ball battles. mules are very useful for players with macro deficiencies and the early game strength of terran means that the opposing player needs a certain treshold amount of skill to not die or fall behind massively against early game terran aggression. this is why terran is certainly not the hardest race on bronze to platinum level. once the majority of opponents has passed the skill treshold to enter the mid- to lategame relatively unscathed though, the lack of "raw muscle" of terran armies starts to become a huge issue. an issue that has to be circumvented by splitting armies, doing drops, multi-pronged attacks, micro like a champ in the big engagements and so on. this critical skill treshold currently lies somewhere around the diamond- to masters-level. the opponents start to have good enough scouting, game-knowledge and macro to enter a long macro game against terran on a regular basis, forcing the terran to actually showcase all the micro, apm and multitasking that their race allows for. forced to have and use the skill that, up to this point, wasnt necessary for terran to win games. suddenly they cant lean back anymore, they cant engage directly anymore. their whole tactical approach to any game that goes longer than 10 minutes has to change or else they are lost. and this new approach requires vastly more skill than what you could get away with against lower level opposition. this is the reason why, in my eyes, terran is the hardest to play on the (high) diamond - masters level. in my opinion, at the very top level, terran is the most demanding race, but also the strongest one. the terran race offers more things to put one's skill to use than the other races, so that terran is the strongest race at the top level. at the same time, you are forced to use at least some of the huge potential of the race to remain competitive. imho terran requires the most skill to reach its skill cap (as it is higher than that of the other races), but is also the easiest to win with IF you can come close to this skill cap. very well written. i totally agree. and that's the reason i switched to protoss. cause terran is SO DAM HARD TO PLAY -.- now i just have to survive ling enough and run over my opponents. up to top masters, there's nor much resistance in the ladder. so take i from someone who started as terran and switched to toss. after early game/early midgame toss is the easiest race to play (mid to high master). zerg is rather easy too as soon as you can wrap your head around the totally different macro mechanics (i play zerg in 2n2). You switched to Protoss but the last 12 (or even more, i just stopped counting) 1v1 matches on your profile were all terran ones. And how do you know you will make it to top master as protoss when you're still not master as terran? I'm not a stalker but you are in the division i'm playing with my offrace smurf and after reading so much sh** here i really had to look up your matchhistory. Just play Protoss and don't state so much ignorant lies here. Of course everyone wants his race to be the hardest to play in order to gain more respect for performing well with it but please stay calm and think before posting (and don't use wrong statements to underline your perspective). Everything that he quoted was true. Terran is the hardest to play in masters because you need to be able to have high apm, multitask, and drop. However, this also makes terran the strongest race, because when controlled correctly, terran gains immensely. If anything, I think you're the biased one here. Please follow your own advice and stay calm, no one likes little babies.
Your right, but so many people blindly hate Terran and Terran players.
EDIT: Most of them also say "My Terran sucks though"
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In my opinion, zerg is the hardest to play until high diamond, and then terran becomes the hardest to play. That being said, being hardest to play doesn't equate to hardest to be successful with. Obviously, protoss is the hardest to be successful with at top levels right now. Maybe that will change soon though...
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The race I play! [Insert other race here] has it so easy, because [anecdotal 'evidence' here] and [Even worse argument here]! Also, my race doesn't have [Insert macro mechanic here] while [insert other race here] does!
People don't appreciate the micro I have to do just to stay even with [Insert other race here], and I feel like their T1/1.5 units are just too strong...
OT:
I feel like it's very dependent on the play style of the month. The game hasn't been fully explored yet and there's a lot lacking beyond the two-base timing pushes we're seeing now (one-base for Terran). I'm sure with Heart of the Swarm and more options being available, the game will regress for a few months while everybody tries the new tactics, before it becomes better than it is now.
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I'm actually surprised the amount of people who've admitted terran is really hard to play. Would've thought most would be like lolz noobrace just stim and amove gg.
Certainly at my level terran is fucking hard, like someone said above me, there's so much you need to do at once, and It's difficult to do it! Even at the top foreigner level, terran doesn't dominate, it's just the top top Korean levels, once they have the amazing micro and multitasking, that Terran shows its the strongest race overall.
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I'm curious what people find hardest about the various matchups in their respective leagues. As a diamond Z I find my multitasking tested everywhere, and a lot of losses come to unscouted/unexpected timing attacks. Macro slips a bit, but it isn't usually the biggest factor in a loss. Depending on the map I have trouble getting a 3rd base up in time to maintain an even economic footing as well. XNC, Shattered Temple, for example have destructible rocks that slow me down.
I'm interested in finding out what's hardest about, say, PvZ so I can lean on my opponents where it makes it hard to stay balanced. Been trying to keep very close tabs on the 3rd base locations to see that timing. Some wins have come from 16-20 ling backstabs that dart in if I see an opening as well.
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I can't comment on the others too much for lack of experience, But I definitely think Terran is the most difficult from Diamond to Masters.
Interesting note, I'm ranked 21st in my Diamond Division Meinhoff Eta, and I just happen to be the highest ranked Terran player in that Division :S
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cant understand cant really understand people vote for prolevel TERRAN since there is 90% terran in gsl code S xD
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On October 06 2011 23:07 CoR wrote:
cant understand cant really understand people vote for prolevel TERRAN since there is 90% terran in gsl code S xD
That argument makes no sense.
Consider this (completely hypothetical) option: Terran is the hardest to play but also strongest if mastered.
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On October 04 2011 06:27 Azaryah wrote:
Platinum Terrans are pretty horrible, I beat them 90% of the time regardless of race. Protoss and Zerg in Platinum do okay in comparison.
I resent that. (Although I am pretty horrible)
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Does anybody understands that difficulty has nothing to do with effectiveness?...
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What if its difficult to be effective?
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EPT
