| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
DarkEnergy
Netherlands542 Posts
On October 06 2011 23:42 Drakeblitz wrote: Does anybody understands that difficulty has nothing to do with effectiveness?... On October 06 2011 23:59 Superneenja wrote: What if its difficult to be effective? hahaha ow u made me smile  I agree on the pols actually, I am plat zerg. | ||
|
ggYouWinLOL
3 Posts
Many people here wish to make the distinction between a race being "hard to play" and "hard to win with", but how can you really do this when the two must by nature be intertwined. If we absolutely do not care at all about whether games are won or lost, then all races are equally easy to play across all leagues. Don't believe me? well next time you start up a game and the screen is loading, try this strategy.. Walk away from your computer, watch a movie, come back and see how you did. Unless your opponent was using this same strategy, you probably lost. Was it difficult to play this way? no. It requires 0 apm. Any race can do this. It is only when you attribute a certain metric to be achieved that you can compare how difficult it is and get any meaningful information. Some examples: "How much player skill is required for each race to get to 50/100/200 supply?" "How much player skill is required for each race to get to 2/3/4 bases?" or the most obvious one: "How much player skill is required for each race to win?" This still doesn't give the whole picture for GM level players as it is not known (and may not be possible to know) whether it is a players skill level or a races abilities which are the limitations on a player reaching targets. Protoss in 1.3 for example were considered the weakest, and this was shown through many tournaments. Does this mean that the Protoss race was definitely weakest, or is it just that the limitations of current players (300-400apm) was not enough to get the most out of them. If people could play at 3000apm for example, would we see a stronger Protoss? This is of course entirely theoretical and as mentioned earlier, we probably would never know such things. To summarise.. whilst people claim that Terran/Zerg have more things to do, and I would agree.. this does not alone make them hardest to play. It may just be that Protoss have more things to do, but are so hard to play that people can't achieve it. Each race more or less has the same functions - ground armies that need micro, drop ship style attacks, scouting units, detecting units etc. and hence have the same difficulties. The fact that players don't use all of these functions indicates a game/race balance issue rather than a limitation in the options available. | ||
|
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On October 07 2011 02:23 ggYouWinLOL wrote: This Poll is interesting, yet at the same time, the failure to define "Hardest to play" makes the results quite meaningless. Many people here wish to make the distinction between a race being "hard to play" and "hard to win with", but how can you really do this when the two must by nature be intertwined. If we absolutely do not care at all about whether games are won or lost, then all races are equally easy to play across all leagues. Don't believe me? well next time you start up a game and the screen is loading, try this strategy.. Walk away from your computer, watch a movie, come back and see how you did. Unless your opponent was using this same strategy, you probably lost. Was it difficult to play this way? no. It requires 0 apm. Any race can do this. It is only when you attribute a certain metric to be achieved that you can compare how difficult it is and get any meaningful information. Some examples: "How much player skill is required for each race to get to 50/100/200 supply?" "How much player skill is required for each race to get to 2/3/4 bases?" or the most obvious one: "How much player skill is required for each race to win?" This still doesn't give the whole picture for GM level players as it is not known (and may not be possible to know) whether it is a players skill level or a races abilities which are the limitations on a player reaching targets. Protoss in 1.3 for example were considered the weakest, and this was shown through many tournaments. Does this mean that the Protoss race was definitely weakest, or is it just that the limitations of current players (300-400apm) was not enough to get the most out of them. If people could play at 3000apm for example, would we see a stronger Protoss? This is of course entirely theoretical and as mentioned earlier, we probably would never know such things. To summarise.. whilst people claim that Terran/Zerg have more things to do, and I would agree.. this does not alone make them hardest to play. It may just be that Protoss have more things to do, but are so hard to play that people can't achieve it. Each race more or less has the same functions - ground armies that need micro, drop ship style attacks, scouting units, detecting units etc. and hence have the same difficulties. The fact that players don't use all of these functions indicates a game/race balance issue rather than a limitation in the options available. I assume you play protoss? Cause it seems like you're trying to avoid the fact toss is easier to play. I don't get what your trying to say about walking away either...When I look at this discussion I think of people who have very little to medium amount of RTS experiece. I think the mechanics or zerg/toss make it easier to for someone to win with minimal experience or skill. Currently I'm a top ~15 diamond Terran, and I do have a zerg acct and play toss sometimes when I random, and I find that micro/macro mechanics of them are alot easier to get a hold of and alot more forgiving than terran. I'm curious is there any pros out there that switch from zerg/toss to terran and were successful at it? I know Morrow did it the other way around, and I think the amount of skill taken to use T made him successful at Z. Ofcourse this is all IMO | ||
|
ggYouWinLOL
3 Posts
On October 07 2011 05:07 Superneenja wrote: I assume you play protoss? Cause it seems like you're trying to avoid the fact toss is easier to play. I don't get what your trying to say about walking away either...When I look at this discussion I think of people who have very little to medium amount of RTS experiece. I think the mechanics or zerg/toss make it easier to for someone to win with minimal experience or skill. Currently I'm a top ~15 diamond Terran, and I do have a zerg acct and play toss sometimes when I random, and I find that micro/macro mechanics of them are alot easier to get a hold of and alot more forgiving than terran. I'm curious is there any pros out there that switch from zerg/toss to terran and were successful at it? I know Morrow did it the other way around, and I think the amount of skill taken to use T made him successful at Z. Ofcourse this is all IMO Correct, I do play protoss and hence this is the only race from which I feel validated to give a viewpoint. If you read my post, I am stating that "easier to play" is a phrase which means nothing without any metrics as to what it means to 'play'. If you mean that protoss are easiest to go from beginning a game to the end of the game, then read my point about how any race can do this without even pressing a key. If you mean that protoss can achieve a particular metric (e.g. winning) more easily than other races, then lets discuss that. Which mechanics make it easier for Z/P? One big argument in this direction which I have seen is that T have simultaneous drops which require more skill, however Zerg can also do drops and Toss can too - the ability to do simultaneous drops is not unique to Terran. The effectiveness of drops is however unique to Terran. All races can do the same thing, using the same amount of micro (hence equally difficult), but the risk/reward in choosing to do drops means that it is only really Terran who do this as the amount of work required for other races does not pay off as easily. This is why I refer to it as an indication of game/racial balance rather than difficulty. The fact is that most races can play the same way, but the way the units have been balanced means that it doesn't make sense for them to do so. So it comes back to the original question, if being difficult to play means being difficult to win, then lets just look at the rankings to determine which race is hardest. If being difficult to play means how hard is it to execute a particular strategy, then I would say that it is almost identical for all races to execute the same strategy, however some strategies are so weak for particular races (e.g. drop harass for Z) that they are not used in practice. | ||
|
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
| ||
|
Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On October 07 2011 05:48 Superneenja wrote: Obviously if we just look at ranking T will be up there alot, but its because the Korean T players have mastered the skill of Terran. Ofcourse all races can drop, but its ALMOST always essential that Terrans drop to win a game, especially TvZ. Also on the dropping aspect I think toss really should use warp prisms more, i mean its a mobile pylon...and if the opponents army is out of position can easily devastate their base. I won't even get into the warp mechanics lol. I just think generally that P/Z is alot more forgiving of someone's mistakes, T is just too fragile and without proper control you're more than likely going to lose. But in Korea, you just can't make mistakes period. LOL Yeah Terran you can make no mistakes but if your all-in fails(1/1/1) you can just do it again with success, but if a protoss screws up the defense against that he cannot defend again even on 2 bases. This has been shown in many GSL games, but yeah I guess you play Terran. | ||
|
perestain
Germany308 Posts
On October 07 2011 05:07 Superneenja wrote: I assume you play protoss? Cause it seems like you're trying to avoid the fact toss is easier to play. I don't get what your trying to say about walking away either...When I look at this discussion I think of people who have very little to medium amount of RTS experiece. I think the mechanics or zerg/toss make it easier to for someone to win with minimal experience or skill. Currently I'm a top ~15 diamond Terran, and I do have a zerg acct and play toss sometimes when I random, and I find that micro/macro mechanics of them are alot easier to get a hold of and alot more forgiving than terran. I'm curious is there any pros out there that switch from zerg/toss to terran and were successful at it? I know Morrow did it the other way around, and I think the amount of skill taken to use T made him successful at Z. Ofcourse this is all IMO Claiming that terran is harder to play while terran dominates across the board is just another way of saying that players who chose terran "naturally" are more skilled somehow. Whatever makes you feel better I guess... Logically, the phrase "easy to play" has to mean something along the lines of "easy to win a game" otherwise it completely lacks any semantics and just serves as an empty phrase for people bullshitting themselves. | ||
|
Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
| ||
|
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On October 07 2011 05:56 perestain wrote: Claiming that terran is harder to play while terran dominates across the board is just another way of saying that players who chose terran "naturally" are more skilled somehow. Whatever makes you feel better I guess... Logically, the phrase "easy to play" has to mean something along the lines of "easy to win a game" otherwise it completely lacks any semantics and just serves as an empty phrase for people bullshitting themselves. While I'm Terran and I believe this, there are alot of people who don't play Terran and agree, but I guess you're right whatever makes me feel better. I wouldn't say just picking T = you have more skill, its if you take the time to learn T then ya. I've seen pro T's go other races and be succesful, haven't seen it the other way around but I could be wrong. I think what it comes down to is the mechanics of the races but what do I know, oh except that Terran is the hardest to play /troll  | ||
|
FataLe
New Zealand4495 Posts
On October 04 2011 14:11 Kenpachi wrote: Terran #1 ez until Diamond. then you start having to micro. And then its suppposedly easier in Masters. w/e High Masters Protoss. I would have to say that Terran begins to be the hardest to play around Mid Diamond 'till Around High Masters. I understand it's no ez feat beating my army 1a a piece and thus the micro is a lot more intensive at that point in skill level. I give a lot of props to my opponents for things like blanket emping from a flank.. Sniping Collossi whilst keeping their bio out of range. Real good synergy between your units make the difference at this level I believe and that's where Terrans are strained the most imo. | ||
|
SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 07 2011 06:02 Superneenja wrote: While I'm Terran and I believe this, there are alot of people who don't play Terran and agree I do believe that's called a baseless assertion. On October 07 2011 06:02 Superneenja wrote:I wouldn't say just picking T = you have more skill, its if you take the time to learn T then ya. Wait - what? If you take the time to learn T then you become a more skillful progamer than if you pick P or Z? Where on Earth did you get this from? There is literally no way to prove this with statistical evidence, or even to get a feel for it. On October 07 2011 06:02 Superneenja wrote: I've seen pro T's go other races and be succesful, haven't seen it the other way around but I could be wrong. MC dominates in practice as Terran, I know that much. | ||
|
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On October 07 2011 06:24 SeaSwift wrote: I do believe that's called a baseless assertion. Wait - what? If you take the time to learn T then you become a more skillful progamer than if you pick P or Z? Where on Earth did you get this from? There is literally no way to prove this with statistical evidence, or even to get a feel for it. MC dominates in practice as Terran, I know that much. A) I wasn't even talking about generally, just from what I read on this topic. B) I think if you learn all the mechanics of T and learn to play with precision (as I believe T does take) then you will encompass all the mechanics needed to be good with either of the other races. Again this is IMO and from what I see off racing when I don't play on my main. C) You're right I did briefly see MC smurfing T on Kr server on some stream and he was doing good. It would be interesting to see lets say MC switch to T and MMA switch to toss who would grasp the race faster. My moneys on MMA Ofcourse this is all my opinion, and I can understand how you'd be offended if you played P or Z. But I mean those with less skill always migrate to things that take less skill to play amirite? PS - /supertrolled PSS - I'm bored at work | ||
|
statikg
Canada930 Posts
1) Terran is the hardest to master (i think this only really comes out at the masters level) 2) Terran has the highest skill cap - thus at the pro level terran performs very well becuase with infintie skill terran is infinitely strong. (obviously not literally but thats the idea) | ||
|
kofman
Andorra698 Posts
To increase the skill caps of the other races to allow for better players to play better, blizz should get rid of microless units (ex- collosi) and replace it with something very powerful in the hands of the best players in the world, but very terrible with not so great players. This would allow all 3 races to have equal opportunity in microing, and I think would really help balance the game. | ||
|
Dice17
United States520 Posts
Another thing is something that could be super easy to one person could be super hard to another person. Its a good discussion thread but I question the level of quality these polls are actually giving out | ||
|
zanmat0
188 Posts
You can see that Zerg is the most played race for TLers from Bronze to Plat, and then most Diamond and Masters TLers play Terran. For GM, since there are likely very few GM TLers who voted in the poll, you can see that the posters are basing their opinion off winrates in tournaments; Protoss is doing poorly, therefore it is the hardest to play (but only at that level!). In any case, a very flawed and inaccurate poll. | ||
|
Dice17
United States520 Posts
On October 08 2011 15:01 zanmat0 wrote: Since pretty much no one here has experience playing all three races at each level, this poll is more a reflection of what race TL posters play. You can see that Zerg is the most played race for TLers from Bronze to Plat, and then most Diamond and Masters TLers play Terran. For GM, since there are likely very few GM TLers who voted in the poll, you can see that the posters are basing their opinion off winrates in tournaments; Protoss is doing poorly, therefore it is the hardest to play (but only at that level!). In any case, a very flawed and inaccurate poll. He just put what I said and made it much better haha | ||
|
DanceSC
United States751 Posts
Silver I think zerg have it the hardest, you try to venture away from the cheeses because your opponents adapt and learn how to defend it. adapting to the macro style of zerg is a little tricky and not like the other two races, reminder to constant inject and creep spread. Gold I think that terran have it the hardest, dealing with the ling-bling muta composition and protoss deathball. Plat/Diamond I think it is well balanced. Masters / GM this is bias opinion but I think that Protoss have it the hardest. Terran have solid builds, and solid units, there is never a composition or timing attack that they struggle against. Zerg are far past the 2 unit composition whine if I lose state of the game. Where protoss are forced to use their entire tech tree at every level of the game. (We joke about marines being tier 3 units, and the roach deathball is no differen't) | ||
|
shawster
Canada2485 Posts
z's stupidly easy once you get past gold. players don't know how to apply pressure effectively besides all ins. then when you hit masters people start doing gay stuff or they actually know how to siege there drop there spread units micro efficiently etcetc. of course before that making units vs making drones is the hardest acquired skill in the game for a new player. terran is hard until players learn how to macro. splitting rines, sieging properly and dropping efficiently are all required skills that players don't have effectively till masters. hardest race to play until masters if you play standard protoss is so easy before players learn how to pressure and hard after. then you learn how to properly play protoss defense and it becomes easier. idk about gm | ||
|
Dice17
United States520 Posts
On October 08 2011 15:11 shawster wrote: i play random Does this even need to be explained? | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Dota 2 League of Legends Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Heroes of the Storm Other Games |
|
Wardi Open
Replay Cast
WardiTV European League
PiGosaur Monday
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
Replay Cast
The PondCast
Replay Cast
Epic.LAN
CranKy Ducklings
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
