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Poll: Hardest race to play at each level of SC2? - Page 26

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 24 25 26 All
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
October 15 2011 19:28 GMT
#501
On October 15 2011 21:27 ElBlanco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2011 14:57 aksfjh wrote:
Fact of the matter is, even if Terran has a lot tools, there is no defined goal in ANY matchup compared to Protoss and Zerg. There is no army composition or number of bases where a Terran spawns an "I win" button like there is for Protoss and Zerg. No damage done by the 3rd base for TvZ? Zerg is pretty much guaranteed the win. Same for TvP, except it's about them getting an unmanageable amount of colossi or HTs. Sure, Terran may have the Swiss army knife of SC2, but what good is that if you have to be a Ranger to use 90% of those tools effectively? It's pretty obvious (look at populations on SC2ranks.com) that below the APM spamming range, most people plain can't play Terran effectively because the requirements are too steep.


Where do people keep getting this from? I've read it quite a few times and it's just flat out wrong. Terran has good representation in GM and masters, struggles a bit in diamond/platinum (but still ok) and tends to dominate below that.

How the the hell does that show terrans below the 'APM spamming range' struggling.

Quite frankly the numbers simply don't agree with what you're saying. Just like the people you were complaining about you're just another player trying to make it sound like they have it harder than everyone else.

Show nested quote +
On October 15 2011 14:57 aksfjh wrote:Even then, however, it goes further beyond that. Look at the Pro players for SC2. Give me a list of Terran players with little to no RTS experience able to at least make it semi-pro. Tell me about the interview with a top Terran who claims he only practices 3-4 hours a day, like many top Protoss and Zerg have claimed in the past. The Terran dominating groups have been those like SlayerS, who boast that they practice more than anybody else, and yet people think Protoss is the hardest race to play at the top? Please.


I'm sorry but this is such absolute crap. The only protoss and zerg players you hear say that are non koreans which is irrelevant considering the standard of training for non korean players as well (although i'm pretty sure someone like MMA said they don't train much because of a wrist problem, don't remember who). What about someone like TLO who can't train much?

Also i would like you post a list of all these supposed top protoss and zerg players who claim they barely train. I doubt you could find many and i doubt they have much success.

In Korea (which is the main place people talk about balance) all the players train incredibly hard so your point doesn't mean much.

Seriously give me a list of any Korean players for any race with little RTS experience, what a silly point. Hell even outside of Korea you see very few players actually succeeding without an RTS background.



Divide regions up, and you'll see that below GM down to silver, Terran has the smallest representation on foreign servers. In the diamond range, Terran only makes up about a quarter of the league, which is quite abysmal in comparison. Meanwhile, in Korea, where many more players have apm intensive experience in BW, Terran representation is respectable and even quite large in the top leagues.

For the players claiming not to practice very much: Idra took a small break when he got back from Korea, Fruitdealer (who has somewhat faded from the scene), and Trickster. These are the main ones coming to mind, who are all Korean trained players. They maintained relatively successful results for quite a bit of time while claiming not to train very hard.

Also, I'm debating over a spectrum. The (semi)pro scene evolves much more beyond the walls of the GOMTV studio. Top levels of play must include quite a wide range to be statistically and logically reliable. From the semi-pro level, we get players like minigun and destiny who have had very strong showings at times. I know destiny has at least taken a series off of bomber.

If you want to argue ONLY over GSL Code S, then you don't even know how skill works. It should be said and understood that for a majority of those players, if they played another race, they would STILL be in Code S. There are no players who clearly shouldn't be there due to racial abuse.
Xenocryst
Profile Joined December 2010
United States521 Posts
October 15 2011 22:56 GMT
#502
completely agree with this
Fwiffo
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada57 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 02:18:52
October 17 2011 17:01 GMT
#503
Polt completely disagrees with this... and so do I.

On October 16 2011 04:28 aksfjh wrote:
If you want to argue ONLY over GSL Code S, then you don't even know how skill works. It should be said and understood that for a majority of those players, if they played another race, they would STILL be in Code S. There are no players who clearly shouldn't be there due to racial abuse.


Show nested quote +
On October 16 2011 04:28 aksfjh wrote:
On October 15 2011 21:27 ElBlanco wrote:
On October 15 2011 14:57 aksfjh wrote:
Fact of the matter is, even if Terran has a lot tools, there is no defined goal in ANY matchup compared to Protoss and Zerg. There is no army composition or number of bases where a Terran spawns an "I win" button like there is for Protoss and Zerg. No damage done by the 3rd base for TvZ? Zerg is pretty much guaranteed the win. Same for TvP, except it's about them getting an unmanageable amount of colossi or HTs. Sure, Terran may have the Swiss army knife of SC2, but what good is that if you have to be a Ranger to use 90% of those tools effectively? It's pretty obvious (look at populations on SC2ranks.com) that below the APM spamming range, most people plain can't play Terran effectively because the requirements are too steep.


Where do people keep getting this from? I've read it quite a few times and it's just flat out wrong. Terran has good representation in GM and masters, struggles a bit in diamond/platinum (but still ok) and tends to dominate below that.

How the the hell does that show terrans below the 'APM spamming range' struggling.

Quite frankly the numbers simply don't agree with what you're saying. Just like the people you were complaining about you're just another player trying to make it sound like they have it harder than everyone else.

On October 15 2011 14:57 aksfjh wrote:Even then, however, it goes further beyond that. Look at the Pro players for SC2. Give me a list of Terran players with little to no RTS experience able to at least make it semi-pro. Tell me about the interview with a top Terran who claims he only practices 3-4 hours a day, like many top Protoss and Zerg have claimed in the past. The Terran dominating groups have been those like SlayerS, who boast that they practice more than anybody else, and yet people think Protoss is the hardest race to play at the top? Please.


I'm sorry but this is such absolute crap. The only protoss and zerg players you hear say that are non koreans which is irrelevant considering the standard of training for non korean players as well (although i'm pretty sure someone like MMA said they don't train much because of a wrist problem, don't remember who). What about someone like TLO who can't train much?

Also i would like you post a list of all these supposed top protoss and zerg players who claim they barely train. I doubt you could find many and i doubt they have much success.

In Korea (which is the main place people talk about balance) all the players train incredibly hard so your point doesn't mean much.

Seriously give me a list of any Korean players for any race with little RTS experience, what a silly point. Hell even outside of Korea you see very few players actually succeeding without an RTS background.



Divide regions up, and you'll see that below GM down to silver, Terran has the smallest representation on foreign servers. In the diamond range, Terran only makes up about a quarter of the league, which is quite abysmal in comparison. Meanwhile, in Korea, where many more players have apm intensive experience in BW, Terran representation is respectable and even quite large in the top leagues.

For the players claiming not to practice very much: Idra took a small break when he got back from Korea, Fruitdealer (who has somewhat faded from the scene), and Trickster. These are the main ones coming to mind, who are all Korean trained players. They maintained relatively successful results for quite a bit of time while claiming not to train very hard.

Also, I'm debating over a spectrum. The (semi)pro scene evolves much more beyond the walls of the GOMTV studio. Top levels of play must include quite a wide range to be statistically and logically reliable. From the semi-pro level, we get players like minigun and destiny who have had very strong showings at times. I know destiny has at least taken a series off of bomber.

If you want to argue ONLY over GSL Code S, then you don't even know how skill works. It should be said and understood that for a majority of those players, if they played another race, they would STILL be in Code S. There are no players who clearly shouldn't be there due to racial abuse.





And considering he's in Grand Masters, has a GSL Title under his belt and plays Terran, I think I'll take his word over yours if you don't mind. But I am impressed by your ability to spin it otherwise.
Edit: Did I say impressed? I meant disgusted.

I have to say I'm saddened on how Protoss players have been duped into thinking they've been playing the easy race for so long. This myth was perpetuated even for the top most level until recently. Only when Win Rate Graphs were released corroborated with statements from Blizzard, Code S players and the relatively polite vigilance of Toss fans pointing them out to their Terran & Zerg counterparts did this change. I suppose that's to be expected, since challenging false beliefs is the age old battle. For the longest time in spite of the evidence, the Earth was flat and at the center of the Universe. Just more of the same with SC2, albeit a little more trivial.
Jeeasper
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1 Post
June 01 2013 16:08 GMT
#504
Protoss. It is simply supported by the fact that barely any protoss make it to tournaments like GSL, and if they do, they have a lower win rate by far, in comparison to other races. It cannot be that they are bad, everyone that makes it to GSL has pretty much similar skill levels. I mean honestly, the cost in ratio of the efficiency of the troops is just seemingly low...
Why is MC by far the best protoss? He is the closest person to mastering the protoss race. Other zergs and terrans seem to struggle as to who is the best at their race. It is because they are all relatively easy to master, so the limit set upon who the best player on is nearly head to head with other terran/zerg players. Whereas for MC, he is ahead of the game by a long shot, only because all the other protoss are lacking something, and are continually struggling to master being a protoss.
Every race claims that they get punishes by small mistakes, but protoss by far gets punished the most. one wrong force field? It is over. Didn't command collesei to attack?
Over.
Didn't send zealots in first?
Over.
Also, protoss has the most micro skills in the book, by statistics. Every unit plays a crucial factor in micro battles.
And above all, Protoss can be read like a book.
Early twilight? Expect blink play.
6 Gateways by 6 minutes? Early harass.
Other races like terran and zerg have many varieties, and constant scouting must be needed to overcome this, which literally limits all options to phoenix hallucination, and an invisible detector that can only come halfway into the game, which travels a bit faster than an overlord...

Microing drops, timings, and larvae injects make Zerg and Terran the harder races to inexperienced players, but in the end, when every player knows their game, Protoss continually struggles with winning.
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