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On October 03 2011 15:06 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 14:57 tskarzyn wrote:
I interpret "difficult to play" as relating to the mechanics, strategy, game sense, and overall strength of player required to play a race. Therefore, T or Z are the most "difficult" races to play.
Given how so many Terrans and Zergs are very consistent, whereas Protoss players aren't at all, this would appear to be very false. Kinda amazing how long the "Protoss are the ez race" meme has stuck around. Crappy deathball play died so long ago (above gold anyways), and that's the only easy part of toss.
Or is it because protoss has been changed SO much lately? Do you listen to STOG? do you remember when Warp Gates were being nerfed and Tyler was talking about how it will change every opening protoss has? Ever since that patch protoss has been in a slump.
And I wouldn't attribute losses to mechanics, I'd attribute losses to Build Orders and strategy above all else. Protoss has a very difficult tech route compared to the other races which is why a lot of protoss is having trouble in Code S.
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for the bronze to platinum votes all being Zerg the hardest I'd think because people who play it think that (noobs) find this new game and being the 'humans' are cool, so they all start with Terran. they look at Protoss as cool looking aliens so they jump on that boat. No noobs would look at that creepy mud race and want to use them. This happens a lot in other games like WoW
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Wouldn't say one patch crippled toss, they all hurt. Wasn't talking about results really anyway, more the struggle for consistency that toss players have.
I'm just agreeing with the majority that toss is the most difficult at the top.
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I'd say following any chart right now is quite stupid, a new patch recently got released so the win/lose ratio is quite unstable.
But following the previous patch, you can see that all races got about 50%, protoss having the lowest win ratio.
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I only have experience in diamond/masters with the 3 races
Zerg - hardest by far, just because its easy to overdrone/underdrone and lose
Terran - easiest by far (I dont even understand the race or know builds... i 1 rax expand into hellion/thor vs zerg and beat masters players meanwhile i 1 rax expand tvp/tvt and do well enough there)
Protoss - Can be difficult, depends on your ability to FF well. If you are good at FF, you are good at protoss.
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On October 03 2011 08:47 Imbak333 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 08:43 ClanRH.TV wrote:On October 03 2011 08:39 Imbak333 wrote:
I really dont agree that zerg is hardest at bronze/silver level because if you look at the statistics, a smaller percent of zergs are in the silver/bronze league compared to toss/terran and this must mean that it is easier to get to a higher league as zerg. Wow....That is some bad logic. how so? I didnt say I had a reason for why zerg is the easiest, im just saying that the statistics support it at that level
That is bad logic because you completely overlooked the more obvious situation. A lack of zerg in bronze/silver would not be caused by zerg being so much easier to use that zergs have that much better of a chance of getting out of bronze/silver. It makes sense that because Zerg may be initially harder to get a hang of that many new players don't want to start out with them.
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On October 03 2011 16:44 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 08:47 Imbak333 wrote:On October 03 2011 08:43 ClanRH.TV wrote:On October 03 2011 08:39 Imbak333 wrote:
I really dont agree that zerg is hardest at bronze/silver level because if you look at the statistics, a smaller percent of zergs are in the silver/bronze league compared to toss/terran and this must mean that it is easier to get to a higher league as zerg. Wow....That is some bad logic. how so? I didnt say I had a reason for why zerg is the easiest, im just saying that the statistics support it at that level That is bad logic because you completely overlooked the more obvious situation. A lack of zerg in bronze/silver would not be caused by zerg being so much easier to use that zergs have that much better of a chance of getting out of bronze/silver. It makes sense that because Zerg may be initially harder to get a hang of that many new players don't want to start out with them.
The relevant number is Z in bronze/total Z versus the same for T/P. I'm not convinced it's skewed at all. Imbak, you're going to need to post some actual stats rather than just talk about them if you want anyone to take you seriously.
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On October 03 2011 14:03 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 13:51 .Sic. wrote:
how did 2200 people vote on grandmasters if only 1200 are qualified to do so? just because you're not in GM doesn't mean you are unable to make judgments about the level of skill required to properly play a race at that level. that's like saying only other CEOs can judge whether a particular CEO is doing a good job or not. a homeless man could accurately observe how much time he spends on his ass. same thing with the races. a GM player sluggishly moving around his screen and not paying attention to his stuff while still pulling wins is clearly relying on the strength of his race and is therefore playing an "easier" race.
no its not the same though.
We arent judging performance here, were supposed to be judging difficulty level. Youre right that anyone can judge performance. A general manager could judge how good of a job the CEO is doing based on financials trends and personal observations within the company. A silver league player could pick out mistakes from pro level games and critique them on that.
However, to judge how hard it is to do something in a certain position, you cant really know how it is unless you do it yourself. A general manager cant know how difficult it is to perform as a CEO. A silver league player cant know how difficult it is to play at the pro level. Yea people can speculate, but unless you do something yourself you cant really know how difficult it really is.
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In my opinion:
Bronze/Silver: Zerg
Gold/Platinum: Zerg
Diamond/Masters: Protoss
Grandmasters/Proffessional: Protoss
I chose these based off the way the macro mechanics work for the respective races.
I didnt choose Terran because I feel like although it is difficult to do, the idea of how to macro properly as terran is simple: you produce constantly and non-stop, and always have all your buildings making units.
with protoss and zerg it is not as simple, as you need to cut drones to defend attacks as zerg, and cut gateway units to tech as protoss. both of which can lose you games easily when you dont know how to do it properly
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All levels except Grandmasters/Pro: Zerg
The macro mechanics and game sense required are really unforgiving.
Lack of scouting, means you die. Lack of injects means you die. Lack of droning means you die.
Also the lack of a wall-in makes it really harder to keep yourself safe against early agression. You have to know most of early/mid-game agression builds so you can counter them. It's not like you siege up and say "come at me bro".
In the Bronze/Platinum tier are the mechanics that are killing you. In the DIamond/Masters is your lack of scouting/lack of game sense and probably lack of apm. Don't forget that impeccable 3 base macro with creep spreading requires around 80 apm. This does not leave much room for scouting/harassing/cute stuff on mid tier (Diamond/Master) players.
Now, for the GM/Pro: Protoss.
When everyone at your level has all your attack timings figured out. When even lower level players can kill you with a 1-1-1 or destroy your FFE with a bling/sling bust. When DT and VR are not working as they used to work. When while easier on the macro apm department, the other race players have finally "mastered" their harder macro and now you are on even ground. When it's almost impossible to grab map control from a Z or T who decides that he must not just sit idle in his base until he hits 200/200.
Yes, then you are screwed.
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Haven't read all 20 pages of comments so guess someone already said the same - but here goes (I'm a P player):
Zerg mechanics are harder - making it tough for lower apm/mechanic players
However - when executed the zerg mechanics have a (debatably higher) pay off. Paying APM for creep spread, injections - rather than macro hatches and poor scouting/unfavourable engagements is a great payoff for good players. Therefore I feel Zerg must by far scale the worst.
Terran is all around pretty basic. Not to judge - but terran can play safe in tons of ways (wall off, bunkers, turrets, siege lines, 1 base). I'm not sure about the lower levels but I guess platinum-diamond T players are required to start harrassing. This is what will take skills for a T player. Macroing while microing drops/hellion runbys is not an easy feat.
Protoss is pretty simple to macro - but pretty darn hard to macro in an optimal way (talking mostly 'bout chronoboost/upgrades) without straight losing to an early push. While I see P having honestly too few harrassment options - and not too too hard macromanagement P's got to be the easiest race for new players. However - when the other races (and the players) are able to overcome the difficulties of their races (zerg-macro / terran-micro) P is suddenly left as a race having difficulties with late scoutingoptions and timedepending techswitches, which seems easilly punishable by the other races.
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People should actually play @ gm level before they voice their opinion. Not just go off stats.
was 3 months ago when all protoss had to do was Voidray collosis v Z and
Just phoenix collosis vs T (By the way where the F did that go?)
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i think people are confusing player strategy and personal ability rather than the difficulty of protoss.
there's a big difference.
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there seems to ne a misconception that terran takes the most apm/skill at the top levels because of drops, but one thing ppl may not realize is that it takes the same amount or more skill to defend those drops properly because you dont know when they are coming but the terran has control of when he sends his drops. Granted, you can assume the initial drop time by your scouting but aside from map awareness and reactions the terran will akways start at an advantage and it is up to the defending player to mitigate damage. The terran macro.machine takes less than zerg when it comes to the mule vs inject and takes lessthan toss when it comes to quing up units. At gm and higher lvl you arw going to see about the same difficulty, really the only reason you could say one race is harder than the rest is if that race has to work harder than tje other race/races that it is being compared to. I dont think terran fits that description purely based off of terrans tourment play since beta. Terran might have the highest skill cap because of the amount of units that they have.
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At bronze, Zerg is the hardest to play mainly b/c this isn't their campaign game and is less straight forward in an RTS sense. In every league above, players equally suck at their respective races.
And I agree with the "I play X, therefore X is the hardest race to play, and can judge play at leagues way above me" sentiment. QQ thread #[ATTACH HUGE NUMBER].
Nonobjective, non-factual and useless thread.
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On October 03 2011 17:18 Notfragile wrote:
All levels except Grandmasters/Pro: Zerg
The macro mechanics and game sense required are really unforgiving.
Lack of scouting, means you die. Lack of injects means you die. Lack of droning means you die.
Also the lack of a wall-in makes it really harder to keep yourself safe against early agression. You have to know most of early/mid-game agression builds so you can counter them. It's not like you siege up and say "come at me bro".
In the Bronze/Platinum tier are the mechanics that are killing you. In the DIamond/Masters is your lack of scouting/lack of game sense and probably lack of apm. Don't forget that impeccable 3 base macro with creep spreading requires around 80 apm. This does not leave much room for scouting/harassing/cute stuff on mid tier (Diamond/Master) players.
Now, for the GM/Pro: Protoss.
When everyone at your level has all your attack timings figured out. When even lower level players can kill you with a 1-1-1 or destroy your FFE with a bling/sling bust. When DT and VR are not working as they used to work. When while easier on the macro apm department, the other race players have finally "mastered" their harder macro and now you are on even ground. When it's almost impossible to grab map control from a Z or T who decides that he must not just sit idle in his base until he hits 200/200.
Yes, then you are screwed.
Honestly, I'd drop the bar to diamond (at least for NA server) for protoss. I personally feel that protoss is just the most unforgiving and poorly designed race. So it just has it's limitations. Once your opponent can begin to abuse you, protoss is at a severe disadvantage.
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For the longest time other races didn't know how to abuse the weaknesses of gateway-centric armies of toss, like mass sentry and the like. Now as infestors, ghosts and siege tanks have been figured out, it makes it extremely tough to balance the sentry/stalker count in the early game, considering the sheer lack of scouting information.
One sentry toss makes does economic damage to him worth 30 seconds of delayed tech, considering one base gas saturation. Other races didn't know how to abuse that until recently. One would argue that it's actually harder to balance your gateway composition as toss as it is to manage drones/units as Zerg. At least, as Zerg, you have the early map control to decide when it's the right time to mass up an army.
Same applies to stalkers. 8 stalkers has toss tie 400 gas onto them, and they aren't very cost-efficient in the early midgame against various styles of play.
Funny thing is that it seems to be only Koreans who understand that concept and abuse it to their hearts desire. On NA/Foreigner tournaments you see very passive play against toss in the early game (very delayed gas FE plays), giving them room to cut gateway units and get their tech out faster.
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On October 03 2011 17:18 Notfragile wrote:
All levels except Grandmasters/Pro: Zerg
The macro mechanics and game sense required are really unforgiving.
Lack of scouting, means you die. Lack of injects means you die. Lack of droning means you die.
Also the lack of a wall-in makes it really harder to keep yourself safe against early agression. You have to know most of early/mid-game agression builds so you can counter them. It's not like you siege up and say "come at me bro".
In the Bronze/Platinum tier are the mechanics that are killing you. In the DIamond/Masters is your lack of scouting/lack of game sense and probably lack of apm. Don't forget that impeccable 3 base macro with creep spreading requires around 80 apm. This does not leave much room for scouting/harassing/cute stuff on mid tier (Diamond/Master) players.
Now, for the GM/Pro: Protoss.
When everyone at your level has all your attack timings figured out. When even lower level players can kill you with a 1-1-1 or destroy your FFE with a bling/sling bust. When DT and VR are not working as they used to work. When while easier on the macro apm department, the other race players have finally "mastered" their harder macro and now you are on even ground. When it's almost impossible to grab map control from a Z or T who decides that he must not just sit idle in his base until he hits 200/200.
Yes, then you are screwed.
best post, agree totally
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I'm currently trying to play as macro terran at plat level and it's really hard vs zerg! I always favored macro style and zerg was easier because I reached diamond. I did not have to pressure while building my economy. Then I guess one playing timing attacks would suffer as zerg, same for those playing cheese. Besides zerg is easier to learn to me because you're punished very hard if you drone too much, whereas as terran, you still can survive and it's harder to know when the big shit happened.
So I would say race difficulty also really depends of playstyle. Zerg really suits well to my playstyle and after thinking T was really OP it became my best matchup because I knew the basic timing attacks while massing drones as much as possible. On the opposite, as a more reactive player I have a hard time doing the first move as terran, but I'm slowly getting it.
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Fun fact: the skill difference between the average diamond and the average master is huge. Hence, there's no way "diamond and master" should be on the same "level" in the poll.
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EPT
