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On October 03 2011 11:05 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:04 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. Nice for you to ignore the blink micro then. I'm sure that takes 3-5 seconds max /facepalm You hardly ever blink micro in TvP after a big engagement, it would be counter-intuitive to use your stalkers to blink for 30 seconds, assuming the rest of your army is dead a stimmed terran army can easily catch up to blink stalkers, so blinking in TvP in most cases unless it's used for harrassment is nonsensical and definitely doesn't take 30 seconds or longer /facepalm "30 Seconds?
Sounds like someones not keeping up in upgrades or Protoss is investing in an all-in.
I get the hyperbole. "Have you ever played against an a-move zealot archon army? You literally have to kite for 30 seconds or longer, whilst all the protoss does is a-move, I'm not even kidding.
or you mass emp the whole thing, hit t and watch it die
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I'd like to say that people have been surprisingly respectful in the thread. I expect fighting to break out at around page ten. The responses are interesting!
Anyway, I'd like to add my observation: If your lag is already at .3 to .5 seconds, terran becomes hardest to play because the effectiveness of stuff like marines and hellions is drastically cut down.
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On October 03 2011 11:11 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:08 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:05 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:04 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. Nice for you to ignore the blink micro then. I'm sure that takes 3-5 seconds max /facepalm You hardly ever blink micro in TvP after a big engagement, it would be counter-intuitive to use your stalkers to blink for 30 seconds, assuming the rest of your army is dead a stimmed terran army can easily catch up to blink stalkers, so blinking in TvP in most cases unless it's used for harrassment is nonsensical and definitely doesn't take 30 seconds or longer /facepalm Yes because I said TvP for blinking. When you terrans say that you have to marine split I won't come in and say "derp whern do you split in TvP." You know there exists 2 other matchups for protoss, maybe not in Code S. So, then we just came to the conclusion that protoss can a-move whilst terran has to micro and macro at the same time in TvP. You can come up with some more scenarios where you have to "blink" in TvP (it's funny you now said that you were talking about a different matchup, when you specifically said "micro units in emp wars and blink")
You shouldn't take 30 seconds to kill a zealot army unless you're poor in the decision making department and decided pure marauder was good against Zeal/Archon. As PvT evolves, it's going to become insanely micro intensive with HT/Warp Prism micro. Archons are so slow and stupid you have to babysit them to follow the army that the zealots are attacking. HTs are slow that unless you've got a WP they aren't hitting that bio army.
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On October 03 2011 11:11 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:08 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:05 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:04 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. Nice for you to ignore the blink micro then. I'm sure that takes 3-5 seconds max /facepalm You hardly ever blink micro in TvP after a big engagement, it would be counter-intuitive to use your stalkers to blink for 30 seconds, assuming the rest of your army is dead a stimmed terran army can easily catch up to blink stalkers, so blinking in TvP in most cases unless it's used for harrassment is nonsensical and definitely doesn't take 30 seconds or longer /facepalm Yes because I said TvP for blinking. When you terrans say that you have to marine split I won't come in and say "derp whern do you split in TvP." You know there exists 2 other matchups for protoss, maybe not in Code S. So, then we just came to the conclusion that protoss can a-move whilst terran has to micro and macro at the same time in TvP. You can come up with some more scenarios where you have to "blink" in TvP (it's funny you now said that you were talking about a different matchup, when you specifically said "micro units in emp wars and blink")"So exploit the fact that stimmed units are insanely fast just run them away while you do other things. Then slowly close the gap that you're not stutter stepping as you become faster at queuing/moving ghosts. That makes the learning curve linear and by consequence, easier. I understand the time consuming point, but it can overcome with practice. " You don't play terran do you? So you want us to stim our units, make them lose health, then run away.... and then stim again and run back in so that we lose even more health.... I get it.
Yes because I said that... And =/= Or
Yes I will agree chargealot/arch vs terran all protoss has to do is faceroll.
However I will also say the same for terran when its 111.
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On October 03 2011 11:13 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:05 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:04 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. Nice for you to ignore the blink micro then. I'm sure that takes 3-5 seconds max /facepalm You hardly ever blink micro in TvP after a big engagement, it would be counter-intuitive to use your stalkers to blink for 30 seconds, assuming the rest of your army is dead a stimmed terran army can easily catch up to blink stalkers, so blinking in TvP in most cases unless it's used for harrassment is nonsensical and definitely doesn't take 30 seconds or longer /facepalm "30 Seconds?
Sounds like someones not keeping up in upgrades or Protoss is investing in an all-in.
I get the hyperbole. "Have you ever played against an a-move zealot archon army? You literally have to kite for 30 seconds or longer, whilst all the protoss does is a-move, I'm not even kidding. or you mass emp the whole thing, hit t and watch it die
I hope you realize that the one protoss unit that gets the least effected by EMP is in fact the zealot, and even if you emp everything you still have to kite for at least 10-15 seconds, they won't just die you know. Usually when a protoss goes zealot/archon they invest alot into upgrades because the only unit they invest gas in are archons. So in most cases the protoss is even or ahead in upgrades, especially since you dont have to chrono your robotics at all. But im done explaining protoss players how their race works now.
"You shouldn't take 30 seconds to kill a zealot army unless you're poor in the decision making department and decided pure marauder was good against Zeal/Archon. As PvT evolves, it's going to become insanely micro intensive with HT/Warp Prism micro. Archons are so slow and stupid you have to babysit them to follow the army that the zealots are attacking. HTs are slow that unless you've got a WP they aren't hitting that bio army."
This is wrong, as terran you can't just change your army composition in 10 seconds. Once you have alot of marauders, you are stuck with marauders, it takes a long time to switch into mass marines and even then it's very risky to overproduce marines, since the protoss can easily go for mass high templar or tech switch into collossus and they absolutely annihilate marines.
It has nothing to do with poor decision making, it's simply not possible for terran to warp in units in 5 seconds and completely switch tech.
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On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid.
the problem is that you can only do one thing at a time, after the stim/emp, terran only need to kite/stutter step, so even if it is time consuming they can queue their productions with units...
while protoss, you can't blink micro and hide your colossus from being focus fired at the same time.
you can't storm and lay down forcefields at the same time.
you can't focus fire with your imortals and retreat the zealots that are going too far ahead at the same time.
even pros can't manage to storm the terran ball that is kitting (and avoiding the storm by kiting) and get their zealots out of the storm at the same time.
the slow templar can't keep up with a kiting terran ball and always lay down the storm on the stupid zealot that can't get a single hit off.
protoss needs army positioning, they have melee, range, siege and spellcaster, with diferent move speed, unlike terran that can shoot and run from any angle you engage. you may say that you can do this before the engagement, but when terran is droping and dancing, it's incredible hard to put then in the correct position and inside the guardian shield
if protoss are playing with templar inside prisms, they can't do anything else, just babysit the prism.
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On October 03 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:50 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 09:14 FataLe wrote:On October 03 2011 08:01 Shirolol wrote:I'm sorry but this poll on the GM level is ridiculous. Just because a certain race is currently at a weaker place in it's life doesn't instantly mean it's the most difficult to play at that level. The fact that only Terran (308) so far really shows how few really good terrans there are. As http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 shows, which someone posted earlier on in the thread. However if we bring koreans into the equation we have a whole new ball game.. They have quite a lot of exceptional terrans because of their really high apm (required for mass harass/marine micro/siege focus etc.) and intense training regimes/amazing practice partners. On October 03 2011 07:37 InvXXVII wrote:
When talking about GM/Master protoss, I think that most of us are not concerned with marco/micro at all. At that level, it should be a given that macro/micro mechanics are mastered. Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot. & it's precisely this ignorant banter which makes me shake my head at everything you've just said. Its true. Sorry, the truth hurts. Such an idiotic statement, really. In my personal experience of playing all three races, Protoss macro is the hardest. At the same time, the battles are also often the easiest if you go the voidray/colossus route vs Zerg, or chargelot/archon vs Terran. Constantly keeping on pylons is much harder than keeping up with ovies, especially since you have to make them so friggin' often, and being unable to just macro without moving your screen to a specific location is huge in itself. However, injecting you can easily simply get in the rythym of doing so, and you're punished the least with Zerg if you get supply blocked imo on a regular basis (if it's occasional then supply drop is fine), due to the fact you can still inject and bank larvae to be used while supply blocked.
I don't understand how Protoss macro is hard. Whenever I'm floating a shit tonne of minerals I make more gateways or another nexus as I wait for cooldowns to finish. I never have problems with Protoss macro (probably because I main Terran and constantly go through my hotkeys to make sure I'm always producing) and find it extremely easy to make pylons constantly (i make 3-4 pylons after a warp in). I do get supply blocked a few times but I end up finding ways to dump minerals into either gateways (to catch up in production) or using chronoboosts to make up for a missed production cycle due to being supply blocked.
Terran macro is the hardest since there are 3 buildings to be making out of CONSTANTLY.Whoever told you that queing units (1-2 units in the que is fine, anything more is bad) needs to watch some day9 dailies.When Terran gets supply blocked and can't supply drop, it's more detrimental in the long run since there's nothing you can do to help you catch up with that production cycle.
Zerg is pretty forgiving in terms of Macro since, they can dump all their minerals and gas with a large round of larvae and can use macro hatcheries to help them catch up in production if they fell behind because of supply blocks.
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On October 03 2011 11:18 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. the problem is that you can only do one thing at a time, after the stim/emp, terran only need to kite/stutter step, so even if it is time consuming they can queue their productions with units... while protoss, you can't blink micro and hide your colossus from being focus fired at the same time. you can't storm and lay down forcefields at the same time. you can't focus fire with your imortals and retreat the zealots that are going too far ahead at the same time. even pros can't manage to storm the terran ball that is kitting (and avoiding the storm by kiting) and get their zealots out of the storm at the same time. the slow templar can't keep up with a kiting terran ball and always lay down the storm on the stupid zealot that can't get a single hit off.
In reality, unless you are Grandmaster League you don't have to do all that to beat an equally skilled terran player. It's much easier to lose a bio army than it is to lose a deathball. Just look at the statistics, the lower leagues get dominated by protoss, silver-master league is protoss heaven, I would agree if we were exclusively talking about the pro level, but master or below nobody ever does that, whereas even gold league terrans have to kite to beat a protoss at their skill level.
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On October 03 2011 11:18 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. the problem is that you can only do one thing at a time, after the stim/emp, terran only need to kite/stutter step, so even if it is time consuming they can queue their productions with units... while protoss, you can't blink micro and hide your colossus from being focus fired at the same time. you can't storm and lay down forcefields at the same time. you can't focus fire with your imortals and retreat the zealots that are going too far ahead at the same time. even pros can't manage to storm the terran ball that is kitting (and avoiding the storm by kiting) and get their zealots out of the storm at the same time. the slow templar can't keep up with a kiting terran ball and always lay down the storm on the stupid zealot that can't get a single hit off.
When I'm dealing with bio as Protoss, all I do is spread my collosus (usually like to have 4-6 collosus, keep stalkers in front of collosus, keep zealots in front of stalkers and 1a. For extra flair I add HT/Archons/Immortals to help deal with massive amount of bio/vikings. If I get emped, I just chronoboost and make more zealots and make more collosus LOLOL. Most of the time, I just spam attack move and usually win the engagement. My apm gets to 100!!!! (old apm)
Ps. I hotkey the closest pylon so I don't have to scroll around the map looking for a pylon to warp in. When I watch Protoss replays and look through their camera, I always see them frantically looking around for a pylon to warp in and waste 5-10 seconds where they could have been microing.
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On October 03 2011 11:24 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:18 rpgalon wrote:On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. the problem is that you can only do one thing at a time, after the stim/emp, terran only need to kite/stutter step, so even if it is time consuming they can queue their productions with units... while protoss, you can't blink micro and hide your colossus from being focus fired at the same time. you can't storm and lay down forcefields at the same time. you can't focus fire with your imortals and retreat the zealots that are going too far ahead at the same time. even pros can't manage to storm the terran ball that is kitting (and avoiding the storm by kiting) and get their zealots out of the storm at the same time. the slow templar can't keep up with a kiting terran ball and always lay down the storm on the stupid zealot that can't get a single hit off. In reality, unless you are Grandmaster League you don't have to do all that to beat an equally skilled terran player. It's much easier to lose a bio army than it is to lose a deathball. Just look at the statistics, the lower leagues get dominated by protoss, silver-master league is protoss heaven, I would agree if we were exclusively talking about the pro level, but master or below nobody ever does that, whereas even gold league terrans have to kite to beat a protoss at their skill level.
you talk like kiting is hard....
On October 03 2011 11:31 JcGuiao wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:18 rpgalon wrote:On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. the problem is that you can only do one thing at a time, after the stim/emp, terran only need to kite/stutter step, so even if it is time consuming they can queue their productions with units... while protoss, you can't blink micro and hide your colossus from being focus fired at the same time. you can't storm and lay down forcefields at the same time. you can't focus fire with your imortals and retreat the zealots that are going too far ahead at the same time. even pros can't manage to storm the terran ball that is kitting (and avoiding the storm by kiting) and get their zealots out of the storm at the same time. the slow templar can't keep up with a kiting terran ball and always lay down the storm on the stupid zealot that can't get a single hit off. When I'm dealing with bio as Protoss, all I do is spread my collosus (usually like to have 4-6 collosus, keep stalkers in front of collosus, keep zealots in front of stalkers and 1a. For extra flair I add HT/Archons/Immortals to help deal with massive amount of bio/vikings. If I get emped, I just chronoboost and make more zealots and make more collosus LOLOL. Most of the time, I just spam attack move and usually win the engagement. My apm gets to 100!!!! (old apm) Ps. I hotkey the closest pylon so I don't have to scroll around the map looking for a pylon to warp in. When I watch Protoss replays and look through their camera, I always see them frantically looking around for a pylon to warp in and waste 5-10 seconds where they could have been microing.
that work only when 2 things happen
1- the terran does not have enought vikings to kill the colossus
2- the terran is not kiting
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On October 03 2011 11:22 JcGuiao wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2011 10:50 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 09:14 FataLe wrote:On October 03 2011 08:01 Shirolol wrote:I'm sorry but this poll on the GM level is ridiculous. Just because a certain race is currently at a weaker place in it's life doesn't instantly mean it's the most difficult to play at that level. The fact that only Terran (308) so far really shows how few really good terrans there are. As http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 shows, which someone posted earlier on in the thread. However if we bring koreans into the equation we have a whole new ball game.. They have quite a lot of exceptional terrans because of their really high apm (required for mass harass/marine micro/siege focus etc.) and intense training regimes/amazing practice partners. On October 03 2011 07:37 InvXXVII wrote:
When talking about GM/Master protoss, I think that most of us are not concerned with marco/micro at all. At that level, it should be a given that macro/micro mechanics are mastered. Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot. & it's precisely this ignorant banter which makes me shake my head at everything you've just said. Its true. Sorry, the truth hurts. Such an idiotic statement, really. In my personal experience of playing all three races, Protoss macro is the hardest. At the same time, the battles are also often the easiest if you go the voidray/colossus route vs Zerg, or chargelot/archon vs Terran. Constantly keeping on pylons is much harder than keeping up with ovies, especially since you have to make them so friggin' often, and being unable to just macro without moving your screen to a specific location is huge in itself. However, injecting you can easily simply get in the rythym of doing so, and you're punished the least with Zerg if you get supply blocked imo on a regular basis (if it's occasional then supply drop is fine), due to the fact you can still inject and bank larvae to be used while supply blocked. I don't understand how Protoss macro is hard. Whenever I'm floating a shit tonne of minerals I make more gateways or another nexus as I wait for cooldowns to finish. I never have problems with Protoss macro (probably because I main Terran and constantly go through my hotkeys to make sure I'm always producing) and find it extremely easy to make pylons constantly (i make 3-4 pylons after a warp in). I do get supply blocked a few times but I end up finding ways to dump minerals into either gateways (to catch up in production) or using chronoboosts to make up for a missed production cycle due to being supply blocked. Terran macro is the hardest since there are 3 buildings to be making out of CONSTANTLY.Whoever told you that queing units (1-2 units in the que is fine, anything more is bad) needs to watch some day9 dailies.When Terran gets supply blocked and can't supply drop, it's more detrimental in the long run since there's nothing you can do to help you catch up with that production cycle. Zerg is pretty forgiving in terms of Macro since, they can dump all their minerals and gas with a large round of larvae and can use macro hatcheries to help them catch up in production if they fell behind because of supply blocks.
This may single handedly be the most absurd thing I've ever read on the forums.
1) If you're floating money as any race, you can throw down more production structures or make another hub (nexus, cc, hatch), it doesn't just apply to Protoss, lol.
2) Terran macro hardest? What? LOL? What you're saying is that its hard because there are 3 production structures (even though Protoss has 3 as well), and that its hardest because even though you have supply drop, its somehow harder to catch up as Terran than the other races because you can't use supply drop? Are you out of your mind?
3) Zerg macro forgiving? Its probably some of the hardest to keep up with, and you need to know when to drone and when not to. They can make macro hatcheries? You seriously sound like you're trolling. A macro hatch is only useful in certain times of the game, and any other race can make more production structures just as easily.
I don't even understand the logic behind your thinking. You're taking the most similar aspects of each races' macro mechanics and then purporting that one is easier than the other (ie. throwing down production, building from different production structures). This sounds like a gold league post tbh... Next time provide more conclusive evidence than just general opinionated comments.
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On October 03 2011 11:22 JcGuiao wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2011 10:50 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 09:14 FataLe wrote:On October 03 2011 08:01 Shirolol wrote:I'm sorry but this poll on the GM level is ridiculous. Just because a certain race is currently at a weaker place in it's life doesn't instantly mean it's the most difficult to play at that level. The fact that only Terran (308) so far really shows how few really good terrans there are. As http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 shows, which someone posted earlier on in the thread. However if we bring koreans into the equation we have a whole new ball game.. They have quite a lot of exceptional terrans because of their really high apm (required for mass harass/marine micro/siege focus etc.) and intense training regimes/amazing practice partners. On October 03 2011 07:37 InvXXVII wrote:
When talking about GM/Master protoss, I think that most of us are not concerned with marco/micro at all. At that level, it should be a given that macro/micro mechanics are mastered. Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot. & it's precisely this ignorant banter which makes me shake my head at everything you've just said. Its true. Sorry, the truth hurts. Such an idiotic statement, really. In my personal experience of playing all three races, Protoss macro is the hardest. At the same time, the battles are also often the easiest if you go the voidray/colossus route vs Zerg, or chargelot/archon vs Terran. Constantly keeping on pylons is much harder than keeping up with ovies, especially since you have to make them so friggin' often, and being unable to just macro without moving your screen to a specific location is huge in itself. However, injecting you can easily simply get in the rythym of doing so, and you're punished the least with Zerg if you get supply blocked imo on a regular basis (if it's occasional then supply drop is fine), due to the fact you can still inject and bank larvae to be used while supply blocked. I don't understand how Protoss macro is hard. Whenever I'm floating a shit tonne of minerals I make more gateways or another nexus as I wait for cooldowns to finish. I never have problems with Protoss macro (probably because I main Terran and constantly go through my hotkeys to make sure I'm always producing) and find it extremely easy to make pylons constantly (i make 3-4 pylons after a warp in). I do get supply blocked a few times but I end up finding ways to dump minerals into either gateways (to catch up in production) or using chronoboosts to make up for a missed production cycle due to being supply blocked. Terran macro is the hardest since there are 3 buildings to be making out of CONSTANTLY.Whoever told you that queing units (1-2 units in the que is fine, anything more is bad) needs to watch some day9 dailies.When Terran gets supply blocked and can't supply drop, it's more detrimental in the long run since there's nothing you can do to help you catch up with that production cycle. Zerg is pretty forgiving in terms of Macro since, they can dump all their minerals and gas with a large round of larvae and can use macro hatcheries to help them catch up in production if they fell behind because of supply blocks.
Zerg macro is NOT forgiving because of larvae. Its UNforgiving because of larvae. Not only do you have to choose between drones and army units when spending (yes larvae are a separate resource that Terran doesnt have to worry about) larvae, but if you miss injects you lose time that you will never get back.
You also cant say "Zerg can just make extra hatcheries" because then you can just say "Terran can just make extra raxes".
Terran is also the easiest when it comes to multitasking macro because it doesnt require as much screen time at base. You can watch a battle and make units while you do it. Zerg has to go back to base to inject and Protoss has to go to a place with pylon power to warp in. Terran can watch the battle and make SCVs or units, then when theyre safe they can drop down 2 MULEs and return to battle.
I dont understand how people say Terran macro is the hardest. You dont even need to look at your base to keep production going.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Thought I'll add that you can inject larvae using your minimap. I do it all the time and never have to go back to my base for that. Do need to go back for creep tumours and to build structures but nothing else. Personally, lost a bit when I first started playing as Zerg but eventually fixed my mistakes and now my Zerg is pretty decent for my level. I think the comparisons between the races should stop because there is no one answer to which has the easier micro/macro. Everyone will say that their own race is the hardest and it's pretty subjective.
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On October 03 2011 12:26 BigFan wrote:I think the comparisons between the races should stop because there is no one answer to which has the easier micro/macro. Everyone will say that their own race is the hardest and it's pretty subjective.
Well I play both zerg and protoss at a pretty good master level but my terran is barely masters. I feel like terran is the hardest for me to macro and keep up with micro.
Why would you want to play a race that is harder for you? Jeeze
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Given the majority of the posts here does not agree with the poll results, I can conclude most of the people that post are bias and apparently thinks their race is the hardest to play. haha
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I agree with zerg being a lot harder at the lower level leagues. Lower level players obviously lack the game sense and scouting knowledge and most likely forget to keep up with spreading creep & and injecting larva. Then they supply cap themselves by either losing their overlords due to wandering too close to queens, initial marines, or stalkers. So usually zerg players at lower levels get steamrolled at the beginning of the game and they don't know why because they didn't scout well and built too many drones and not enough army/spine crawlers/spore crawlers.
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On October 03 2011 12:35 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 12:26 BigFan wrote:I think the comparisons between the races should stop because there is no one answer to which has the easier micro/macro. Everyone will say that their own race is the hardest and it's pretty subjective. Well I play both zerg and protoss at a pretty good master level but my terran is barely masters. I feel like terran is the hardest for me to macro and keep up with micro. Why would you want to play a race that is harder for you? Jeeze
I actually protoss and zerg around a diamond level and terran around high plat/low diamond. I like playing terran even because its my worst cause i like having a challenge 
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On October 03 2011 11:17 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 11:13 polysciguy wrote:On October 03 2011 11:05 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:04 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 11:03 doko100 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:58 yandere991 wrote:On October 03 2011 10:56 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 10:54 MattBarry wrote:
What is so hard about stutter stepping? I hear Terrans complain so much about stutter stepping against Chargelots, I'd really like to know what is remotely difficult about it. I'm in Platinum and can do it near perfectly.
Terran is ridiculously easy at the lower levels of play (Bronze-Gold) due to the forgiving nature of the race. Will a supply drop put you behind in a pro game? Hell yeah it will. Will it put you behind in a Gold game? Probably not. Zerg is insanely hard at lower levels but I find it easier to play than my Protoss at my current level of play. As long as you hit injects and know what to scout you can roll over anyone.
Protoss I won't comment on since it's my main. stutter stepping isn't hard, but it's extremely time consuming. When you are stutter stepping, there is no time to micro other units, macro, or do anything else. You just described..... nearly every other micro in the game!! Try microing other units during a emp war or blink micro and I'll guarantee your templars are dead along with your stalkers. But that's not the same /facepalm Kiting against chargelots can often times take up to 30 seconds of gametime, during that time (unless you have 300 apm) you can't do anything else. Splitting and microing in an emp war takes like what..... 3-5 seconds at max? I'm sorry but your statement wasn't just wrong, it was stupid. Nice for you to ignore the blink micro then. I'm sure that takes 3-5 seconds max /facepalm You hardly ever blink micro in TvP after a big engagement, it would be counter-intuitive to use your stalkers to blink for 30 seconds, assuming the rest of your army is dead a stimmed terran army can easily catch up to blink stalkers, so blinking in TvP in most cases unless it's used for harrassment is nonsensical and definitely doesn't take 30 seconds or longer /facepalm "30 Seconds?
Sounds like someones not keeping up in upgrades or Protoss is investing in an all-in.
I get the hyperbole. "Have you ever played against an a-move zealot archon army? You literally have to kite for 30 seconds or longer, whilst all the protoss does is a-move, I'm not even kidding. or you mass emp the whole thing, hit t and watch it die I hope you realize that the one protoss unit that gets the least effected by EMP is in fact the zealot, and even if you emp everything you still have to kite for at least 10-15 seconds, they won't just die you know. Usually when a protoss goes zealot/archon they invest alot into upgrades because the only unit they invest gas in are archons. So in most cases the protoss is even or ahead in upgrades, especially since you dont have to chrono your robotics at all. But im done explaining protoss players how their race works now. "You shouldn't take 30 seconds to kill a zealot army unless you're poor in the decision making department and decided pure marauder was good against Zeal/Archon. As PvT evolves, it's going to become insanely micro intensive with HT/Warp Prism micro. Archons are so slow and stupid you have to babysit them to follow the army that the zealots are attacking. HTs are slow that unless you've got a WP they aren't hitting that bio army." This is wrong, as terran you can't just change your army composition in 10 seconds. Once you have alot of marauders, you are stuck with marauders, it takes a long time to switch into mass marines and even then it's very risky to overproduce marines, since the protoss can easily go for mass high templar or tech switch into collossus and they absolutely annihilate marines. It has nothing to do with poor decision making, it's simply not possible for terran to warp in units in 5 seconds and completely switch tech.
I dont understand whats wrong here.
Even if you take 30 seconds microing to kill off the zealot/archon a-move army (i still think its an exaggeration), youve just fucking killed off his entire army. Who cares if you havent macroed during those 30 seconds? You still have part of an army and that protoss dumbass who decided to a-move and not pay attention to his army is down thousands of resources.
Id much rather have an army that requires micro but can actually benefit very highly from the micro than an army that requires less micro but is shit when facing a decently microed terran army.
This is why I dont understand how Terran is harder at Diamond/Master level. Everyone says "Oh well its because Zerg mechanics are hard to learn early on but everyones used to it by Diamond/Masters." How the hell does that not apply to Terran micro? Ive said so numerous times, but I started out playing Terran. I was stutter stepping in beta and marine splitting by GSL2. In Diamond/Masters, yea most Zergs are good enough to have their macro mechanics down to a decent level. At the same time most Terrans should have their micro mechanics down to a decent level as well. With that in mind, why would Terrans micro somehow make them the hardest race to play in Diamond/Masters?
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I agree for the most part with the leagues, I would agree that zerg is generally the hardest in lower leagues where mechanics are severely lacking, however once you hit diamond/master area I feel like terran is more difficult because you are forced to macro and micro, doing just one or the other will result in you losing unless you are playing someone much worse than you. Protoss/zerg don't have to worry about doing it both simultaneously as much so and to the extent a Terran does. I haven't played at a GM level so I can't really speculate properly, but people going by win percentages are kinda stupid because having a race that is doing poorly doesn't mean its hard to play, in fact I would say that oppositely having a race do poorly is more likely because its easier to play and thus limited by its own meta game.
At a Pro level it seems to be odd because hardly any foreigner Terrans (Meaning those who aren't living in Korea) are doing well for themselves save an exception or two, however GSL seems to be GomTvT so its tough to say if this is simply because its harder to play, but Much more rewarding when you can play at that top level or if its because the other races are harder to play but haven't quite churned out the strategies that the Terran's have.
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On October 03 2011 11:22 JcGuiao wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 10:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 03 2011 10:50 kofman wrote:On October 03 2011 09:14 FataLe wrote:On October 03 2011 08:01 Shirolol wrote:I'm sorry but this poll on the GM level is ridiculous. Just because a certain race is currently at a weaker place in it's life doesn't instantly mean it's the most difficult to play at that level. The fact that only Terran (308) so far really shows how few really good terrans there are. As http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 shows, which someone posted earlier on in the thread. However if we bring koreans into the equation we have a whole new ball game.. They have quite a lot of exceptional terrans because of their really high apm (required for mass harass/marine micro/siege focus etc.) and intense training regimes/amazing practice partners. On October 03 2011 07:37 InvXXVII wrote:
When talking about GM/Master protoss, I think that most of us are not concerned with marco/micro at all. At that level, it should be a given that macro/micro mechanics are mastered. Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot. & it's precisely this ignorant banter which makes me shake my head at everything you've just said. Its true. Sorry, the truth hurts. Such an idiotic statement, really. In my personal experience of playing all three races, Protoss macro is the hardest. At the same time, the battles are also often the easiest if you go the voidray/colossus route vs Zerg, or chargelot/archon vs Terran. Constantly keeping on pylons is much harder than keeping up with ovies, especially since you have to make them so friggin' often, and being unable to just macro without moving your screen to a specific location is huge in itself. However, injecting you can easily simply get in the rythym of doing so, and you're punished the least with Zerg if you get supply blocked imo on a regular basis (if it's occasional then supply drop is fine), due to the fact you can still inject and bank larvae to be used while supply blocked. I don't understand how Protoss macro is hard. Whenever I'm floating a shit tonne of minerals I make more gateways or another nexus as I wait for cooldowns to finish. I never have problems with Protoss macro (probably because I main Terran and constantly go through my hotkeys to make sure I'm always producing) and find it extremely easy to make pylons constantly (i make 3-4 pylons after a warp in). I do get supply blocked a few times but I end up finding ways to dump minerals into either gateways (to catch up in production) or using chronoboosts to make up for a missed production cycle due to being supply blocked. Terran macro is the hardest since there are 3 buildings to be making out of CONSTANTLY.Whoever told you that queing units (1-2 units in the que is fine, anything more is bad) needs to watch some day9 dailies.When Terran gets supply blocked and can't supply drop, it's more detrimental in the long run since there's nothing you can do to help you catch up with that production cycle. Zerg is pretty forgiving in terms of Macro since, they can dump all their minerals and gas with a large round of larvae and can use macro hatcheries to help them catch up in production if they fell behind because of supply blocks.
The timing of warpins isn't that relevant (knowing when to warp them in), as it's not very different from Terran, as you said. The difference is that you physically have to place the units. It's not hard at all to make units out of three different buildings, and in TvP you only have to use 2 anyways (rax + starport), which is similar to gateway + robo (assuming immortals or colossus).
If you're floating a ton of minerals you're doing something wrong in the first place anyways, I'm not sure how "I just throw down a nexus or more gateways" is anymore legit than "I throw down more raxes or add a CC" or "I throw down more macro hatches or expand more."
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