Poll: Hardest race to play at each level of SC2? - Page 16

Lumi

United States1612 Posts

October 03 2011 00:17 GMT

#301

This data is pretty useless without people being required to include what their own race / bias is. And we've got 1200 votes for how things are at the grandmaster level even though probably only a few at most actually are from grandmasters. Just the latest testament to how newbs think they know anything/everything \= No wonder Protoss comes out on top for the GM poll with that kind of audience voting for it.

Pretty sure there are just ton of Protoss newbs answering a completely different question: "which race is the hardest to win as at the GM level" which they're basing off of who knows what - Korean or NA GM? Korean or Foreigner tournament results?

I'd get a kick out of hearing some GM Protoss describe what it is about their play that is so difficult to perform that beats out the other races.

Demonace34

United States2493 Posts

October 03 2011 00:33 GMT

#302

On October 03 2011 09:00 IMNotMvp wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you actually think about macro as each race I think Protoss has the hardest time having the most efficient macro.

Protoss macro you are either on cooldown or off cooldown. Chronoboost is usually always used on upgrades and big expensive units or valuable tech (warpgates only if a huge attack is coming or if you are trying to lean on a dying opponent). If you aren't spot on with your macro by hitting your WG timings you will have wasted X amount of seconds every cycle. Over the period of a game it starts to add up. One solution is to become inefficient and make extra gateways to make up for your lack of multitasking. Another fix me up is to save mid-game chronos for your WG units (taking away from chroning upgrades and powerful units).

Zerg hatches constantly make larva as long as the hatchery doesn't support 3 larva already. Queens are able to keep their energy to inject on other hatches and use other useful abilities if you miss an inject.

Terran is able to queue units all game long so you can overlap in case of an impeding battle. Queue and micro queue and micro. This allows for smooth gameplay and constant spending.

If you have 6 gateways though, and you warp in, battle, and go back to the pylon to warpin and you are 5-10 seconds late...that transfers into 30 seconds to a full minute of warp in loss. The macro can be easier if you are inefficient and build more gateways than you can actually support or if you are perfect with your timing on your wg and use chronoboost on warpgates.

Back to the topic at hand though. I'd agree that zerg has an arching curve getting easier to around masters then becoming difficult again as you approach 99.9 percentile. Terran is easy to medium difficulty at the lower levels turns medium to high at the diamond masters level and stays there til the top. Protoss is easy up to diamond and grows harder and harder to play from there. At the top they are all pretty close but I'd say Protoss and Zerg are just a bit (talking about barely) harder to play then Terran at the highest levels.

Drowsy

United States4876 Posts

October 03 2011 00:37 GMT

#303

On October 03 2011 08:01 Shirolol wrote:
I'm sorry but this poll on the GM level is ridiculous. Just because a certain race is currently at a weaker place in it's life doesn't instantly mean it's the most difficult to play at that level. The fact that only Terran (308) so far really shows how few really good terrans there are. As http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 shows, which someone posted earlier on in the thread.

However if we bring koreans into the equation we have a whole new ball game.. They have quite a lot of exceptional terrans because of their really high apm (required for mass harass/marine micro/siege focus etc.) and intense training regimes/amazing practice partners.

Show nested quote +

Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot.

It's not just about mechanical ease. Terran can pretty much never scout and not have all that much to worry about as far as things that could instantly end the game for them. Even though their macro/micro requires more actions to be performed, the fact that they can play relatively more blind than the other races makes a huge difference. Terran has a lot of safe builds that are never going to be super far behind against anything their opponents do and there's little way for a protoss or zerg to respond.

Protoss and zerg don't have this luxury. You have to scout, interpret, and react, and if you do it wrong you either lose outright or get way behind. There's just so few times when terran is put in this situation, and even if they fuck up and misinterpret something or fail to react, they still have the adaptability to not lose right away.

If this thread was talking about what race is the hardest from a purely mechanical/execution standpoint, then obviously protoss wouldn't be in the running.

ZenithM

France15952 Posts

October 03 2011 00:53 GMT

#304

On October 03 2011 09:17 Lumi wrote:
This data is pretty useless without people being required to include what their own race / bias is. And we've got 1200 votes for how things are at the grandmaster level even though probably only a few at most actually are from grandmasters. Just the latest testament to how newbs think they know anything/everything \= No wonder Protoss comes out on top for the GM poll with that kind of audience voting for it.

Pretty sure there are just ton of Protoss newbs answering a completely different question: "which race is the hardest to win as at the GM level" which they're basing off of who knows what - Korean or NA GM? Korean or Foreigner tournament results?

I'd get a kick out of hearing some GM Protoss describe what it is about their play that is so difficult to perform that beats out the other races.

I don't understand your point of view at all.
I'm pretty sure the hardest race to win with at GSL level equals the hardest race to play, especially if you take into account the way Protoss lose their games.
Let's take a popular TvP build: the 1/1/1. This build is very easy to execute at all levels, but very hard to stop, and yielded a week ago a 90% winrate. There you go, can you still say that Protoss is very easy?

Now I don't care about lower leagues, the point is, you can always just decide to improve at that level, and not being lazy and complain about protoss or whatever. The fact that many players manage to beat protoss very consistenly (like 90% of the games) should convince you that you JUST have to improve a bit in order to win too, it's not like vP is an unwinnable matchup. If you can't improve, then you don't deserve to win against everybody obviously, and you just have to accept some losses.
I could understand if GSL was 64 protoss, but it's very hard to even stay in the GSL while playing this race, that should convince you that the problem comes from you when you lose against Protoss.

Finally, I seriously don't get what's so easy about protoss and so hard about terran and zerg, bite me...

kirdie

Germany221 Posts

October 03 2011 00:54 GMT

#305

I don't get why people say zerg is the hardest in the lower leagues. You dont even *need* larva injects there. I just 6 pooled from bronze to I think platin shortly after release. As terrans can wall of relatively easily I then would say protoss is harder. Also, protoss is in my opinion the hardest race below diamond because they rely on good forcefield micro.

Zerebreat

Germany32 Posts

October 03 2011 00:54 GMT

#306

On October 03 2011 09:17 Lumi wrote:
This data is pretty useless without people being required to include what their own race / bias is.

Guess I had some time to waste. This should cover all possibilities. There should be no excuse voting your race in gm while you're only bronze with this.

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11 total votes

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7 total votes

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Excessive Spoilers because every poll has 9 answers.

ZOMGitsTHEEND

Canada202 Posts

October 03 2011 01:02 GMT

#307

On October 03 2011 09:54 Zerebreat wrote:

Show nested quote +

Guess I had some time to waste. This should cover all possibilities. There should be no excuse voting your race in gm while you're only bronze with this.

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0%

2 total votes

Your vote: I'm Gold+Platinum voting for Gold+Platinum

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm Gold+Platinum voting for Diamond+Master
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm Gold+Platinum voting for Diamond+Master

I'm Z - Z (1)

100%

I'm T - T (0)

0%

I'm P - T (0)

0%

I'm Z - T (0)

0%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm P - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

I'm T - Z (0)

0%

I'm P - Z (0)

0%

1 total votes

Your vote: I'm Gold+Platinum voting for Diamond+Master

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm Gold+Platinum voting for GM+Pro
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm Gold+Platinum voting for GM+Pro

I'm Z - Z (1)

100%

I'm T - T (0)

0%

I'm P - T (0)

0%

I'm Z - T (0)

0%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm P - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

I'm T - Z (0)

0%

I'm P - Z (0)

0%

1 total votes

Your vote: I'm Gold+Platinum voting for GM+Pro

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm Diamond+Master
+ Show Spoiler +

I'm Diamond+Master voting for Bronze+Silver
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm Diamond+Master voting for Bronze+Silver

I'm T - Z (3)

30%

I'm P - Z (2)

20%

I'm Z - Z (2)

20%

I'm P - T (1)

10%

I'm Z - T (1)

10%

I'm P - P (1)

10%

I'm T - T (0)

0%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

10 total votes

Your vote: I'm Diamond+Master voting for Bronze+Silver

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm Diamond+Master voting for Gold+Platinum
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm Diamond+Master voting for Gold+Platinum

I'm T - Z (3)

33%

I'm P - Z (3)

33%

I'm Z - Z (2)

22%

I'm Z - T (1)

11%

I'm T - T (0)

0%

I'm P - T (0)

0%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm P - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

9 total votes

Your vote: I'm Diamond+Master voting for Gold+Platinum

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm Diamond+Master voting for Diamond+Master
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm Diamond+Master voting for Diamond+Master

I'm T - T (5)

45%

I'm P - T (2)

18%

I'm Z - Z (2)

18%

I'm Z - T (1)

9%

I'm P - Z (1)

9%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm P - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

I'm T - Z (0)

0%

11 total votes

Your vote: I'm Diamond+Master voting for Diamond+Master

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm Diamond+Master voting for GM+Pro
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm Diamond+Master voting for GM+Pro

I'm P - P (3)

43%

I'm T - T (1)

14%

I'm T - P (1)

14%

I'm Z - P (1)

14%

I'm Z - Z (1)

14%

I'm P - T (0)

0%

I'm Z - T (0)

0%

I'm T - Z (0)

0%

I'm P - Z (0)

0%

7 total votes

Your vote: I'm Diamond+Master voting for GM+Pro

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm GM+Pro
+ Show Spoiler +

I'm GM+Pro voting for Bronze+Silver
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm GM+Pro voting for Bronze+Silver

I'm T - T (0)

0%

I'm P - T (0)

0%

I'm Z - T (0)

0%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm P - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

I'm T - Z (0)

0%

I'm P - Z (0)

0%

I'm Z - Z (0)

0%

0 total votes

Your vote: I'm GM+Pro voting for Bronze+Silver

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm GM+Pro voting for Gold+Platinum
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm GM+Pro voting for Gold+Platinum

I'm T - T (0)

0%

I'm P - T (0)

0%

I'm Z - T (0)

0%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm P - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

I'm T - Z (0)

0%

I'm P - Z (0)

0%

I'm Z - Z (0)

0%

0 total votes

Your vote: I'm GM+Pro voting for Gold+Platinum

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm GM+Pro voting for Diamond+Master
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm GM+Pro voting for Diamond+Master

I'm T - T (0)

0%

I'm P - T (0)

0%

I'm Z - T (0)

0%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm P - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

I'm T - Z (0)

0%

I'm P - Z (0)

0%

I'm Z - Z (0)

0%

0 total votes

Your vote: I'm GM+Pro voting for Diamond+Master

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

I'm GM+Pro voting for GM+Pro
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I'm GM+Pro voting for GM+Pro

I'm T - T (0)

0%

I'm P - T (0)

0%

I'm Z - T (0)

0%

I'm T - P (0)

0%

I'm P - P (0)

0%

I'm Z - P (0)

0%

I'm T - Z (0)

0%

I'm P - Z (0)

0%

I'm Z - Z (0)

0%

0 total votes

Your vote: I'm GM+Pro voting for GM+Pro

(Vote): I'm T - T
(Vote): I'm P - T
(Vote): I'm Z - T
(Vote): I'm T - P
(Vote): I'm P - P
(Vote): I'm Z - P
(Vote): I'm T - Z
(Vote): I'm P - Z
(Vote): I'm Z - Z

Excessive Spoilers because every poll has 9 answers.

information will probably be irrelevent as no one will bother voting on the poll as they already done so on the OP

rpgalon

Brazil1069 Posts

October 03 2011 01:05 GMT

#308

terran need to do more clicks, but the clicks are easier to be done, like:
to build a marine you need to select the barrack (hotkey) and build the marine.
for protoss you need to move the screen to where you want, select the warpgate (hotkey), select the zealot, and click to warp in.

more clicks =/= Harder

I would say T-T-Z-P, i don't think zerg is harder than terran in the earlier leagues.

Soulriser

United States192 Posts

October 03 2011 01:11 GMT

#309

Z-Z-x-x

zerg is pretty hard to play at lower levels. their playstyle is so.. unique compared to the other 2 races and its too common to overdrone and lose.(actually, thats true for any level of play, it jsut happens less often as you move up in the ladder).

however, i dont agree that Protoss is 'the hardest to play'. hardest to play doesnt mean how well theyre doing or how many games protoss win. actually, i think the fact that toss can still deathball a-move and win games at GM level doesnt really say that theyre hard to play.

protoss have some of the most amazing units in the game, and i think the fact that people dont use them well enough to win doesnt say anything about the race, but the players.

also, the toss metagame hasnt shifted in sometime, which makes them pretty predictable. hopefully well see that change sometime soon since 1.4.1 is out

Supamang

United States2298 Posts

October 03 2011 01:18 GMT

#310

On October 03 2011 09:33 Demonace34 wrote:

Show nested quote +

lol, if you miss an Inject, no amount of Transfuse or Creep Tumors is gonna make up for the delay in getting the extra 4+ larvae (4+ larvae because you will inevitably have more hatches and queens).

polysciguy

United States488 Posts

October 03 2011 01:20 GMT

#311

On October 03 2011 10:11 Soulriser wrote:
Z-Z-x-x

zerg is pretty hard to play at lower levels. their playstyle is so.. unique compared to the other 2 races and its too common to overdrone and lose.(actually, thats true for any level of play, it jsut happens less often as you move up in the ladder).

however, i dont agree that Protoss is 'the hardest to play'. hardest to play doesnt mean how well theyre doing or how many games protoss win. actually, i think the fact that toss can still deathball a-move and win games at GM level doesnt really say that theyre hard to play.

protoss have some of the most amazing units in the game, and i think the fact that people dont use them well enough to win doesnt say anything about the race, but the players.

also, the toss metagame hasnt shifted in sometime, which makes them pretty predictable. hopefully well see that change sometime soon since 1.4.1 is out

you'll see more warp prisms and immortals yes, thats not really a metagame shift though, zerg and terran already know how to deal with drops, they will just have to be dealing with it from protoss now. ive personally always liked the immortal more than the colo, but the colo is more important so i don't think, personally, that the immortal change will make a huge difference except for immortal timing pushes im not trying to balance whine or anything, im just trying to say i don't personally see anywhere for anything to shift to

Soulriser

United States192 Posts

October 03 2011 01:21 GMT

#312

On October 03 2011 09:33 Demonace34 wrote:

Show nested quote +

terrans have to wait on their units to create, and if they arent pumping out units, then they have to wait x amount of seconds before their units come out again. they cannot chronoboost. chronoboost is a race unique mechanic that no other race has. terran and zerg have nothing like cb that can speed up upgrades/etc.

actually, i believe that NesTea said that if you miss a larvae inject in a game at GSL level, you basically auto-lose because you dont have enough units to defend against early pressure or you wont have enough drones to stay equal economically. missing an inject is pretty much the worst thing you can do as a zerg, especially early game.

GeneralissimoNero

United States236 Posts

October 03 2011 01:22 GMT

#313

Microing against Z as T at Gold and Plat is soooo hard. Marine splitting, proper tank micro. So hard against LingBlingMuta.

CrazyF1r3f0x

United States2120 Posts

October 03 2011 01:22 GMT

#314

I think this thread is kind of silly, even if everyone doesn't vote for their race--they are going to make blanket assumptions about the higher levels of play and make their vote off that; also the arguments in this thread seem to be affected by racial bias, and people over simplifying things (protoss is all a-move, zerg requires no micro, ect).

Shirolol

England504 Posts

October 03 2011 01:23 GMT

#315

On October 03 2011 09:14 FataLe wrote:

Show nested quote +

& it's precisely this ignorant banter which makes me shake my head at everything you've just said.

Well you need to lighten up a bit then, it was more meant as a joke than me being serious. But your micro is easier than terran, that's a fact is what I mean. Just don't be so touchy, you're meant to have SHIELDS god damnit.

I think you are over-hyping the power of the 1/1/1 by pretty ridiculous amounts.. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it easier to execute than it is to stop? Possibly. (Protoss players would say yes, naturally.) But there are many strategies out there across all matchups where the defender has to work much harder than the guy attacking him, it happens because of the lack of defenders advantage in quite a lot of cases. And it has been stopped at pro levels aswell, so if you want to go see how to stop it - start watching GSL (I think it was GSL anyway.. Correct me if i'm wrong.)

On October 03 2011 09:53 ZenithM wrote:
Let's take a popular TvP build: the 1/1/1. This build is very easy to execute at all levels, but very hard to stop, and yielded a week ago a 90% winrate. There you go, can you still say that Protoss is very easy?

Could you tell me the winrate now? Because I assure you terrans are NOT winning 90% of tvps. And I never said protoss is very easy, you're the only one who mentioned that - I just said compared to terran micro it's not on the same level, and you can't really argue with that.

Namu

United States826 Posts

October 03 2011 01:24 GMT

#316

On October 03 2011 09:37 Drowsy wrote:

Show nested quote +

This post proves you have no idea what you're talking about..
Try playing terran at the GM level. No you can't never scout (especially on the korean server), you'll get raped by well executed all-ins if you don't know they're coming.
The original post is pretty useless for the GM poll because well, 99% of the people voting have no clue how it works at that level... every race has their difficulties. I consider terran = protoss in terms of difficulty for GM level players, with zerg a little bit harder because they're more difficult mechanically.

Paragleiber

413 Posts

October 03 2011 01:25 GMT

#317

I am silver league and for me Zerg is the hardest and Terran the easiest.

In BW I was D- and Terran was hardest and Protoss was easiest.

ColdLogic2

1 Post

October 03 2011 01:39 GMT

#318

I think placing master and diamond thogether is a mistake

ZenithM

France15952 Posts

October 03 2011 01:42 GMT

#319

On October 03 2011 10:24 Namu wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 03 2011 09:37 Drowsy wrote:

On October 03 2011 07:37 InvXXVII wrote:
When talking about GM/Master protoss, I think that most of us are not concerned with marco/micro at all. At that level, it should be a given that macro/micro mechanics are mastered.

Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot.

The last word you added to your post ("mechanically") precisely shows that you in fact have no idea of what you're talking about. Mechanics are not a factor at GM level, ever. Everyone at GM level has good mechanics, they don't care if they play Protoss, terran or zerg, they will still have 250 APM to work with and will execute most likely everything they do quite correctly. SC2 mechanics are not hard for ex-BW pro-gamers...

You would have said that Zerg needs better decision making than the other two races at that level, I would have been fine with it. But mechanics, really?

Darclite

United States1021 Posts

October 03 2011 01:44 GMT

#320

On October 03 2011 10:23 Shirolol wrote:

Show nested quote +

"My race has hard micro and yours is easier LOL that's a fact. They aren't even on the same level. You CAN'T argue with that!"

See, this is what I meant about people oversimplifying what their opponents do to make themselves feel that their race is harder, when in reality it can't actually be proven, varies depending on the strength of the player, and varies a ton on what style of play is utilized.

Also, while it has become more manageable, the 1/1/1 probably has the greatest gap between necessary skill from each player. Probably even more than the 3 rax scv all-in. While it may not be 90%, it still is far too effective considering the skill it requires. But this is the kind of thing I mean, a 6 pool and a proxy 2 gate can win games in masters and even GM, but they require no skill. It depends on strategy and player strengths, not just race. You can't just say "lol terran micro is harder that's a fact." Prove it objectively. You can't. No one can prove it about any race objectively.

I don't think the other guy needs to lighten up, I think you need to be a bit less closed-minded.

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