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On October 03 2011 07:02 Soliduok wrote:
For all the people voting for protoss as the hardest race, you have to be joking. Protoss is the absolute easiest race macro and micro from my experience. Just because protoss is losing at the top levels doesn't mean they are the hardest race to play, maybe it's just a shitty race at that level. Maybe people just aren't using them properly, I don't know, but it is insane to say they are the hardest to play
Think of it this way. GSL is TIP-FUCKING-TOP level of play, the best you will see around. Meaning that individual skill really isn't much of a factor anymore, it's more about builds and studying your opponent and figuring out their strengths/weaknesses and how to take advantage of that. If that's the case then GSL results are actually a good indicator of balance. I really feel like the better caliber the players, the more fleshed out the game becomes and you can actually see weaknesses within a race.
Take two evenly matched football teams, the one who wins is the one who understands their opponent. But even a player like MC who is smart enough to know their opponent can be defeated because of the limitations of a race. Build order losses seem to happen a lot more frequently for Protoss in PvT than any other match up except mirror match ups.
The best pros in the world playing each other is the best indication of balance we will ever get. The reason is because "balance" can never be truly defined except through games and it takes the best of the best players to bring out each race to it's fullest.
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I think it's pretty easy to sum up:
It's generally agreed that it starts off as protoss being the easiest, zerg the hardest, and terran somewhere in the middle at the lowest levels of play. As skill increases, protoss becomes harder and harder to play (steeper slope), and zerg becomes easier and easier (smaller slope), while terran seems to grow appropriately along with skill level (same slope).
Somewhere around high diamond/low masters, the races meet up and can be described, for all intents and purposes, as equal in difficulty. From this point on, protoss will grow as the hardest race, further distancing itself from the other two the higher up you go, wherase zerg behaves the exact opposite, and terrran continues to grow linearly along with skill.
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I'm sorry but this poll on the GM level is ridiculous. Just because a certain race is currently at a weaker place in it's life doesn't instantly mean it's the most difficult to play at that level. The fact that only Terran (308) so far really shows how few really good terrans there are. As http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 shows, which someone posted earlier on in the thread.
However if we bring koreans into the equation we have a whole new ball game.. They have quite a lot of exceptional terrans because of their really high apm (required for mass harass/marine micro/siege focus etc.) and intense training regimes/amazing practice partners.
On October 03 2011 07:37 InvXXVII wrote:
When talking about GM/Master protoss, I think that most of us are not concerned with marco/micro at all. At that level, it should be a given that macro/micro mechanics are mastered.
Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot.
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Everyone who is ignoring these things:
Protoss micro involves well organized armies with units that must be rearranged due to different speeds, spreading to avoid AOEs, avoiding surrounds, force fields, stutter step, guardian shield, pulling back important units whenever they are hurt or vulnerable, feedbacks, storms, blinks (so many fucking blinks), phoenix lifting, melding archons in combat, and the fact that you need to go to a proxy pylon during fights to macro, etc.
Terran requires engagements simultaneous with drops, dodging AOE spells, tank positioning and leap frogging, stutter step, EMPs and snipes, vikings to target colossi and thors and marines to protect tanks from mutas, etc.
Zerg requires incessant injections and creep spread, great minimap vision, careful timing of baneling attacks, ling surrounds and flanks, extreme care with mutas, infested terrans, fungals, neurals, and good positioning of broodlords, etc.
Shut up. Be practical. Just because you suck against a race doesn't mean protoss a moves a ball, terran is hopelessly OP at ALL levels, and zerg has never microed ever.
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Nevermind guy above said it better than i did.
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i find that on my second account (EU gold because i don't really play it, mostly my NA) Zerg is actually quite easy to play. At that level, i can make 40 zerglings pre-emptively then drone up when i feel uber safe, and the terran or protoss move out with a gold macro worthy army and i just stomp it. Idk, it's probably because i have diamond mechanics playing gold. (i main race terran btw)
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 03 2011 08:11 Darclite wrote:
Everyone who is ignoring these things:
Protoss micro involves well organized armies with units that must be rearranged due to different speeds, spreading to avoid AOEs, avoiding surrounds, force fields, stutter step, guardian shield, pulling back important units whenever they are hurt or vulnerable, feedbacks, storms, blinks (so many fucking blinks), phoenix lifting, melding archons in combat, and the fact that you need to go to a proxy pylon during fights to macro, etc.
Terran requires engagements simultaneous with drops, dodging AOE spells, tank positioning and leap frogging, stutter step, EMPs and snipes, vikings to target colossi and thors and marines to protect tanks from mutas, etc.
Zerg requires incessant injections and creep spread, great minimap vision, careful timing of baneling attacks, ling surrounds and flanks, extreme care with mutas, infested terrans, fungals, neurals, and good positioning of broodlords, etc.
Shut up. Be practical. Just because you suck against a race doesn't mean protoss a moves a ball, terran is hopelessly OP at ALL levels, and zerg has never microed ever.
I can understand much of your opening statement. But your last statement confuses me... how can zerg not require micro if you stated that you have to constantly be positioning your units and that infestors require sufficient micro to be used properly.
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people usually think that protoss is easy, because when the game ends, they go to the APM tab in the replay and protoss players almost always have a lower APM, so ------------> easier?
but when I play terran, my APM doubles, I'm not doing anything better/harder than when I play protoss, it just doubles.... maybe is because all the stutter step or the reactored marines....
EDIT: what I'm trying to say is that terran increasses my APM because the commands I need to execute, have to be executed far more times but they are far more easy to do.
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what i find funny is how even diamond/master is, maybe its a side effect of blizzard balancing specifically for that level. Perhaps statistically terran is weak there so blizzard refuses to nerf it even though GSL Code S is becoming the League of Terrans. and Protoss being too strong which is why blizzard is taking months to even aknowledge theres a problem with protoss play at top level and even then they are taking the extra small change and wait and see approach
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On October 03 2011 08:27 Goshdarnit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 03 2011 08:11 Darclite wrote:
Everyone who is ignoring these things:
Protoss micro involves well organized armies with units that must be rearranged due to different speeds, spreading to avoid AOEs, avoiding surrounds, force fields, stutter step, guardian shield, pulling back important units whenever they are hurt or vulnerable, feedbacks, storms, blinks (so many fucking blinks), phoenix lifting, melding archons in combat, and the fact that you need to go to a proxy pylon during fights to macro, etc.
Terran requires engagements simultaneous with drops, dodging AOE spells, tank positioning and leap frogging, stutter step, EMPs and snipes, vikings to target colossi and thors and marines to protect tanks from mutas, etc.
Zerg requires incessant injections and creep spread, great minimap vision, careful timing of baneling attacks, ling surrounds and flanks, extreme care with mutas, infested terrans, fungals, neurals, and good positioning of broodlords, etc.
Shut up. Be practical. Just because you suck against a race doesn't mean protoss a moves a ball, terran is hopelessly OP at ALL levels, and zerg has never microed ever. I can understand much of your opening statement. But your last statement confuses me... how can zerg not require micro if you stated that you have to constantly be positioning your units and that infestors require sufficient micro to be used properly.
His ending statement is meant to be ironic
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I really dont agree that zerg is hardest at bronze/silver level because if you look at the statistics, a smaller percent of zergs are in the silver/bronze league compared to toss/terran and this must mean that it is easier to get to a higher league as zerg.
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Boy, I didn't know that there were so many pro's and GM's that answer these types of polls. It would seem as though anyone under that might be unqualified for answer the specific categories. It would be interesting to see how many players didn't just choose their race.
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On October 03 2011 08:39 Imbak333 wrote:
I really dont agree that zerg is hardest at bronze/silver level because if you look at the statistics, a smaller percent of zergs are in the silver/bronze league compared to toss/terran and this must mean that it is easier to get to a higher league as zerg.
Wow....That is some bad logic.
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On October 03 2011 08:43 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 08:39 Imbak333 wrote:
I really dont agree that zerg is hardest at bronze/silver level because if you look at the statistics, a smaller percent of zergs are in the silver/bronze league compared to toss/terran and this must mean that it is easier to get to a higher league as zerg. Wow....That is some bad logic.
how so? I didnt say I had a reason for why zerg is the easiest, im just saying that the statistics support it at that level
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Zerg, Zerg, Terran, Protoss
Zerg at beginner levels should be obvious, they just have such poor critical thinking, scouting, decisionmaking and prediction skills. Terran at diamond-masters. At this level, strategies are figured out, players know how to scout and react. What seperates any 2 given masters-diamond players is usually their mechanics, and I think terran gets the most benefit from crossing over into the near-perfect mechanical territory.
Protoss at highest levels. There's little you can do to improve mechanically at this level and it mostly comes down to decision making and gathering, reading, and interpreting information. Doing this wrongly has the most severe consequences for protoss.
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Doesnt everyone realize that its not THE HARDEST TO WIN WITH, but the hardest to PLAY. most protosses at most levels play deathball style with little to no harass.(in my opinion thats retarded), with terran u have to harass protoss and zerg otherwise u lose most of the time because they 1A all day.
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On October 03 2011 08:47 Imbak333 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 08:43 ClanRH.TV wrote:On October 03 2011 08:39 Imbak333 wrote:
I really dont agree that zerg is hardest at bronze/silver level because if you look at the statistics, a smaller percent of zergs are in the silver/bronze league compared to toss/terran and this must mean that it is easier to get to a higher league as zerg. Wow....That is some bad logic. how so? I didnt say I had a reason for why zerg is the easiest, im just saying that the statistics support it at that level
This is wrong. In fact this supports the notion that Zerg is harder at those levels. More people probably start as toss/terran then transition into zerg as they master the fundamentals. Zerg really isn't noobie friendly at all if you look at it.
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I'm a 100% Protoss player and my list is Z/Z/Z/Z. Protoss isn't very difficult to play, it's just not a very solid race at the highest of levels currently. That doesn't equal difficulty.
For me, Zerg requires a lot more multitasking and APM, unless I survive until 4 bases and GG-lords are on the field.
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On October 03 2011 08:01 Shirolol wrote:I'm sorry but this poll on the GM level is ridiculous. Just because a certain race is currently at a weaker place in it's life doesn't instantly mean it's the most difficult to play at that level. The fact that only Terran (308) so far really shows how few really good terrans there are. As http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 shows, which someone posted earlier on in the thread. However if we bring koreans into the equation we have a whole new ball game.. They have quite a lot of exceptional terrans because of their really high apm (required for mass harass/marine micro/siege focus etc.) and intense training regimes/amazing practice partners. Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 07:37 InvXXVII wrote:
When talking about GM/Master protoss, I think that most of us are not concerned with marco/micro at all. At that level, it should be a given that macro/micro mechanics are mastered. Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot.
+1
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On October 03 2011 08:01 Shirolol wrote:I'm sorry but this poll on the GM level is ridiculous. Just because a certain race is currently at a weaker place in it's life doesn't instantly mean it's the most difficult to play at that level. The fact that only Terran (308) so far really shows how few really good terrans there are. As http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 shows, which someone posted earlier on in the thread. However if we bring koreans into the equation we have a whole new ball game.. They have quite a lot of exceptional terrans because of their really high apm (required for mass harass/marine micro/siege focus etc.) and intense training regimes/amazing practice partners. Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 07:37 InvXXVII wrote:
When talking about GM/Master protoss, I think that most of us are not concerned with marco/micro at all. At that level, it should be a given that macro/micro mechanics are mastered. Protoss macro is by far the easiest and your micro is 1a-ing and blinking, sometimes. Oh and pressing f a lot.
& it's precisely this ignorant banter which makes me shake my head at everything you've just said.
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EPT
