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Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103) Update: Please read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267506#1 and continue the discussion there. | ||
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KoshkaTV
United States430 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:02 Falcor wrote: the founder of complexity use to own a law firm and sold his share of it to pursue esports more. So i dont think lawyer fees for him will be a issue. No matter how rich you are....$200-$500/hour takes its toll. | ||
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Hadopi
France1 Post
Which law will be apply, french or us? | ||
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Scrandom
Canada2819 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:02 MyRevenge wrote: Actually I don't think that it's very common to see a player breaking his contract after less than 24 hours. But well, you're not wrong. By the way, I've read that Millenium said there were loophole(s) in the contract, and that would be the reason why they engaged Stephano (again). If you guys are asking for more professionalisation, you'd better expect the teams to fix that kind of situation in private. Actually all of them lost some credibility. That's what I was meaning by "they're all wrong". Maybe coL is in its right, but in the end there won't be any winner in this drama, only losers. | ||
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BarbieHsu
574 Posts
[QUOTE]On September 20 2011 08:47 Piotr wrote: I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but let’s do it again. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so this is my first day). First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI. The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract. In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do :p ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. We have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). It is not unusual: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state. My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so :p ) Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive, it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful… [/QUOTE] Nice post! I would assume that the contract signed is the same that all other col players sign. Very likely an American contract signed in the United States contemplating future work for an American employer. Fairness seems to indicate that he should respect the col contract, or be liable for breach. But his liability should be mitigated in case it was an honest mistake of law, and anyway col has spent nothing on him, and has only been a little bit embarassed. | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
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ZestyPickle
United States104 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:06 dsousa wrote: No matter how rich you are....$200-$500/hour takes its toll. The point is he is a lawyer, therefore he can represent himself.. | ||
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CEO
Sweden16 Posts
On September 20 2011 08:26 TERRANLOL wrote: Well it's not about Stephano, it's about the legitimacy of the contract. So once Stephano has gotten out of his contract so easily, what happens when another CoL player gets an offer from another team? Will they escape the contract too? Why even make contracts? In order for coL to be successful as a business they have to honor contracts. I think there's a big difference between getting out of your contract when you're in the middle of its time period and getting out a day or something after you signed it. Compare getting out of the military before your first day of training, and deserting in the middle of an actual operation. I don't think that signed players will think that they can get away with whatever they want just because the organisation is good enough to allow people to get out of their contracts if they realize right away that they don't want to stay. | ||
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MyRevenge
France12 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:09 ZestyPickle wrote: The point is he is a lawyer, therefore he can represent himself.. I highly doubt about that, since he should engage legal pursuit in FRANCE. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:11 MyRevenge wrote: I highly doubt about that, since he should engage legal pursuit in FRANCE. No, he wouldn't. Jurisdiction is in Texas, USA. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:11 CEO wrote: I think there's a big difference between getting out of your contract when you're in the middle of its time period and getting out a day or something after you signed it. Compare getting out of the military before your first day of training, and deserting in the middle of an actual operation. I don't think that signed players will think that they can get away with whatever they want just because the organisation is good enough to allow people to get out of their contracts if they realize right away that they don't want to stay. I don't see any difference between the two at all. Breaking a contract is breaking a contract, regardless of when you do it. Imagine if an NHL/NFL/MLB player signs a contract with a team for a year, and just suddenly bails. There would be huge consequences for that kind of action. | ||
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Emporio
United States3069 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:11 CEO wrote: I think there's a big difference between getting out of your contract when you're in the middle of its time period and getting out a day or something after you signed it. Compare getting out of the military before your first day of training, and deserting in the middle of an actual operation. I don't think that signed players will think that they can get away with whatever they want just because the organisation is good enough to allow people to get out of their contracts if they realize right away that they don't want to stay. I'm pretty sure you'll get hunted down regardless of how long you've been in training if you try to skip off on enlistment. | ||
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scribe123456
United States43 Posts
- If coL engage legal pursuit, they won't have any compensation, or a ridiculous one. - Stephano maybe behaved like a kid, but he's just 18 years old, does it deserve 3 000 posts about it? - Both Stephano & coL should have told Millenium about this contract. Even though he had no legal contract, Stephano was still engaged with Millenium. - Millenium's reaction is unfair too, maybe even illegal. Eventually, no one of them make benefits from this situation. That's why I just said they were all wrong and should better fix this in private. Got it? 1) Are you saying that Stephano would not have made Complexity any money? There is no guarantee one way or another... its the way with all sports players. Complexity saw great potential in him and were ready to take a big risk. Does that count as nothing. What if Complexity lost big, they would still have held to the contract and payed him. If you are going to make a bet, you cant back out. and make no mistake, this was an accepted bet from both parties, (legal bet; we have to wait and see). I have watched Stephanos stream for only a few weeks now, but what I saw and the reasoning behind his moves were imo more sound then Idras or any other non-korean zerg that I can think of. If only he could apply his reason and logic to the real world, he would be amazing. 2) 18, 19, 20, wtf, its legally old enough to represent oneself. The fact that 3000 posts should say how important this is. even if you don't see it. 3) they did for 18 days, both sides knew the other side wanted him. Why should Complex. and Mill. talk directly. If I was in negotiations I would not want the two companies to bypass me, would you? I would demand to be the go between so I know exactly whats up. 4) I agree the point is, like all sport contracts... you make a bet, you agree on the bet and you play it out. you cant say Complexity lost nothing, because the agreed bet never played out. ![[image loading]](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp20nhkGcL1qhdksk.gif) User was warned for this post | ||
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Callosum
United States56 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:09 ZestyPickle wrote: The point is he is a lawyer, therefore he can represent himself.. He wouldn't even have to be a lawyer to represent himself, but it certainly helps. I hope complexity sues and seeks recourse, not just because it'd be a fascinating case, but because teams and players need to operate like professional businesses with professional recourse to grow esports. | ||
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Pcgamer72
United States40 Posts
If for any reason legal action is not taken, I think it might be appropriate for tournaments to prohibit his participation in their events for a given amount of time. Changing your mind because you didn't think a situation through fully should not be a recourse for making a binding decision. | ||
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CptGrackSparrow
United States278 Posts
anything new or is everyone still arguing about what laws apply and who's at fault? | ||
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chocolatebunny
301 Posts
hopefully this will resolve itself peacefully | ||
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Callosum
United States56 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:12 Chargelot wrote: No, he wouldn't. Jurisdiction is in Texas, USA. That's awesome, I'm a Texas lawyer! I wonder which district court they'd file in, I could follow the case as it happens. | ||
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IndoorSpawningPool
United States99 Posts
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BarbieHsu
574 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:08 vojnik wrote: this is like spanish soap opera lol Spanish soap operas talk about 1. International contract law and/or 2. E-sports??? Interesting. What would the title of such a soapie be? _____________________________________________________________________________ Anyway, I'm not trying to French bash here, but it seems very likely to me that Millenium was the one that exerted pressure for Stephano to severe ties with col. Therefore, I'm sure they are more than willing to pay the settlement for breach on his behalf. Stephano will be fine. Mill will pay the money penalty for Stephano's breach. I just hope he's worth it. | ||
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Quintum_
United States669 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:11 CEO wrote: I think there's a big difference between getting out of your contract when you're in the middle of its time period and getting out a day or something after you signed it. Compare getting out of the military before your first day of training, and deserting in the middle of an actual operation. I don't think that signed players will think that they can get away with whatever they want just because the organisation is good enough to allow people to get out of their contracts if they realize right away that they don't want to stay. Lol bad example buddy, it does not matter when you desert the military, where you decide to skip the plane to basic or in the middle of a deployment you are going to be facing criminal charges. After you sign your contract you are bound to it. | ||
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