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Do you macro like a pro? - Page 39

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Bonham
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada655 Posts
September 18 2011 16:05 GMT
#761
Wow, an amazing amount of work for a really interesting study.Well done, whathefat!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
September 18 2011 16:15 GMT
#762
On September 19 2011 01:04 pyjamads wrote:
Nice write up....

But I was thinking, this SQ might be a bit off.
I mean say you are a Gold/Plat player and your worker creation skills are lower than the higher leagues, as was proven in your excellent analysis. Then your avg. income will never get as high as the income of higher level players than you, and you won't have trouble keeping your resources low.

In that case you would get a high SQ score, even though your macro could be terrible.
So that might explain, why a lot of players in Plat / diamond calculate their SQ and get results around Masters level, even though they get out macro'ed by higher level players than them selves.

The point is that there is actually more than one way of being bad at macro, first you could make a ton of workers and not be good enough at spending your income, which is what SQ determines, and secondly you could be bad at making workers but still be good at using all you resources, where SQ has kind of a loop hole. In both cases your would probably be using the same amount of resources as everyone else in your league, which is probably why you are there in gold/plat/diamond or what ever.

I'm not hating on the post, I think it's great, just think that it has a loop hole, I mean with this calculation, you kind of assume that "constant worker production" is constant and not faulty throughout the game (at least when your not cutting workers on purpose).

Say I play a game, with my gold buddies and I only make like 40 workers all game long, doesn't matter I'm on 3 bases, I just don't remember to build them. And because I'm terrible at macro'ing just like anyone else in gold, I can only use what resources my 40 workers gather. Then at the end of my 30 minute game, I might have avg. unspent 447 and income 1415, which is like IdrA, only IdrA's game is 14 minutes long and he probably got harassed a lot in that period.
The problem is that then my SQ would look exactly like IdrA's, and i might even have won because of how terrible everyone is in gold, so now I actually think I'm good, and that was not exactly what was intended with SQ.

If I've overlooked something that makes my argument look stupid, please go ahead and ridicule this post

hf


Yeah, that's partially correct. SQ calculates, mostly, how effectively you spend your income, not how you generate that income. You can however also compare how many workers you made in your game and relate that to the GM graph in the post to know wether you macro'd well or not
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
pyjamads
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark33 Posts
September 18 2011 16:27 GMT
#763
On September 19 2011 01:15 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 01:04 pyjamads wrote:
Nice write up....

But I was thinking, this SQ might be a bit off.
I mean say you are a Gold/Plat player and your worker creation skills are lower than the higher leagues, as was proven in your excellent analysis. Then your avg. income will never get as high as the income of higher level players than you, and you won't have trouble keeping your resources low.

In that case you would get a high SQ score, even though your macro could be terrible.
So that might explain, why a lot of players in Plat / diamond calculate their SQ and get results around Masters level, even though they get out macro'ed by higher level players than them selves.

The point is that there is actually more than one way of being bad at macro, first you could make a ton of workers and not be good enough at spending your income, which is what SQ determines, and secondly you could be bad at making workers but still be good at using all you resources, where SQ has kind of a loop hole. In both cases your would probably be using the same amount of resources as everyone else in your league, which is probably why you are there in gold/plat/diamond or what ever.

I'm not hating on the post, I think it's great, just think that it has a loop hole, I mean with this calculation, you kind of assume that "constant worker production" is constant and not faulty throughout the game (at least when your not cutting workers on purpose).

Say I play a game, with my gold buddies and I only make like 40 workers all game long, doesn't matter I'm on 3 bases, I just don't remember to build them. And because I'm terrible at macro'ing just like anyone else in gold, I can only use what resources my 40 workers gather. Then at the end of my 30 minute game, I might have avg. unspent 447 and income 1415, which is like IdrA, only IdrA's game is 14 minutes long and he probably got harassed a lot in that period.
The problem is that then my SQ would look exactly like IdrA's, and i might even have won because of how terrible everyone is in gold, so now I actually think I'm good, and that was not exactly what was intended with SQ.

If I've overlooked something that makes my argument look stupid, please go ahead and ridicule this post

hf


Yeah, that's partially correct. SQ calculates, mostly, how effectively you spend your income, not how you generate that income. You can however also compare how many workers you made in your game and relate that to the GM graph in the post to know wether you macro'd well or not


I agree, what I'm saying is that while you can compare that graph and all that, SQ as a figure doesn't really work across all levels of skill, as it is put out in the OP.
I'm not saying that it is not true, just saying that apparently a lot of people have calculated their SQ and found them selves to be better than expected at macro'ing, and that might be because of the problem I mentioned.
Just saying that maybe the SQ formula, needs to take the game length into account.
yeastiality
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada374 Posts
September 18 2011 16:41 GMT
#764
Very cool thread. Hopefully you get hired by Blizzard to do more of the same.
CynanMachae
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Canada1459 Posts
September 18 2011 16:44 GMT
#765
Wow I'm amazed by all this data
Jang Yoon Chul hwaiting!
ShamTao
Profile Joined September 2010
United States419 Posts
September 18 2011 16:47 GMT
#766
This stuff is sooo cool! Thanks for putting in all of the math and effort to grab the data - really interesting stuff.

Thanks!
In the game of drones, you win or you die!
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
September 18 2011 17:05 GMT
#767
Regarding the effects of game duration, I didn't find any positive or negative correlations between SQ and game duration for any of the leagues. This is likely because longer games tend to also have higher incomes. I've now added this info to the FAQ as a few people have raised this point.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Nazeron
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1046 Posts
September 18 2011 17:29 GMT
#768
good read, well done
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Kess
Profile Joined September 2011
Denmark1 Post
September 18 2011 19:27 GMT
#769
Had to make a profile, just to say: GJ!
"Denny Crane!"
Nallen
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom134 Posts
September 18 2011 19:54 GMT
#770
I worked out my average from my last 10 ladder games and I'm bang on the line for Silver. I am Silver.

Must spend moar.
Nemireck
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1875 Posts
September 18 2011 20:00 GMT
#771
On September 19 2011 02:05 whatthefat wrote:
Regarding the effects of game duration, I didn't find any positive or negative correlations between SQ and game duration for any of the leagues. This is likely because longer games tend to also have higher incomes. I've now added this info to the FAQ as a few people have raised this point.



You could, however, calculate an expected income at game-time, and factor in that score in place of the specific game-time. The point many people are raising is that lower players will have a higher SQ in longer games, not because they are spending efficiently per se, but because they are not increasing their income at the same pace as someone with better macro. So if you run the data and find that at 17 minutes, a GM has an income of 2000, but a platinum player only has an income of 1500, you generate a score, and include it in the calculation for SQ, where a player with 1500 at 17 minutes will generate a lower SQ, even though they are spending their income just as "efficiently".
Teamwork is awesome... As long as your team is doing all the work!
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
September 18 2011 20:38 GMT
#772
On September 19 2011 05:00 Nemireck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2011 02:05 whatthefat wrote:
Regarding the effects of game duration, I didn't find any positive or negative correlations between SQ and game duration for any of the leagues. This is likely because longer games tend to also have higher incomes. I've now added this info to the FAQ as a few people have raised this point.



You could, however, calculate an expected income at game-time, and factor in that score in place of the specific game-time. The point many people are raising is that lower players will have a higher SQ in longer games, not because they are spending efficiently per se, but because they are not increasing their income at the same pace as someone with better macro. So if you run the data and find that at 17 minutes, a GM has an income of 2000, but a platinum player only has an income of 1500, you generate a score, and include it in the calculation for SQ, where a player with 1500 at 17 minutes will generate a lower SQ, even though they are spending their income just as "efficiently".


Thanks for the suggestion. I considered doing something along those lines, and looked at correlations between game duration and income. But even at GM level, the correlation between income and game duration is extremely noisy. In general there seems to be much more useful information in spending as a function of income. I believe this is because there are many different viable strategies - there isn't a single optimal expansion timing - however, all players are constrained by the need to spend their available income as well as possible if they are to win. I agree that at the extremes you could perhaps introduce a penalty (e.g., if you still have a one-base income after 20 minutes, then you are probably doing something wrong). But players who do that tend to also spend very poorly - they don't just sit on one base and spend their meager income perfectly (which would be one way of "faking" good macro by the SQ score).
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Dbla08
Profile Joined March 2011
United States211 Posts
September 18 2011 20:54 GMT
#773
very well done sir, now someone should start gathering all the replays from the top 20ish% SQ of the grandmaster players. this also could be an interesting way of how people could judge themselves (and others, since people are that way) as a "professional" starcraft 2 player
Mordanis
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States893 Posts
September 18 2011 21:29 GMT
#774
I'm in plat and my average SQ was about 70-71. Am I macroing at a high diamond/low masters level and engaging/microing/managing expansions badly or am I missing something?
I love the smell of napalm in the morning... it smells like... victory. -_^ Favorite SC2 match ->Liquid`HerO vs. SlayerS CranK g.1 @MLG Summer Championship
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12237 Posts
September 18 2011 21:33 GMT
#775
State brought up an interesting note about how SQ favors longer macro games if you're good at spending. Vanick constructed this graph based on SQ and it seems to be something to consider: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot 35(0.00137x - ln(y)) + 240, x=800..2000, y=400..1700

Also I want to make sure people aren't finding their SQs and using that as some "magic number" to define their skill level like they did in that closed "calculate your MMR" fiasco of a thread. Macro is only one component of the game and there's more to it than that.
Moderator
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
September 18 2011 22:25 GMT
#776
wow just wow. i really appreciate your analysis. MOAR =)
21 is half the truth
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
September 18 2011 22:40 GMT
#777
i think the data includes other aspects, mostly scouting: the better your scouting and game-state knowledge, the more you can cut corners. In plat/low diamond you see a lot of people playing "safe" because they suck at scouting (so do I). I think this sets grandmaster apart from masters. Idra takes this to the extreme, he is always playing on the edge macro-wise.
21 is half the truth
Lysergic
Profile Joined December 2010
United States355 Posts
September 18 2011 23:21 GMT
#778
I calculated the SQ for some of DongRaeGu's games at MLG Raleigh, it was 91.5.
I also did it for Nada's last 20 games at MLG Raleigh, his SQ was 94.3 O_O, he should get his face on the scale past Idra.
Theeakoz
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1114 Posts
September 18 2011 23:40 GMT
#779
This was the best thread I've ever seen on TL in my short membership life. Why hasnt whatthefat gotten a star yet?
Please change the luck dependancy of spawning locations on rotationally symmetric maps.
MiKTeX
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
September 18 2011 23:51 GMT
#780
i liked the SQ scale graduations

bronze, silver, gold, platinum, diamond, master, grand master, and idra
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