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Do you macro like a pro? - Page 20

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 18 19 20 21 22 63 Next
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
September 16 2011 20:10 GMT
#381
Regarding players maxing out, and the effects of that on SQ, it's an interesting problem. I of course didn't include any data regarding whether a player is maxed out at any point, as it would require analysis of the replay. However, note that the data included many long games for all leagues of the ladder. This no doubt included many games in which players maxed out, and led to even Grandmaster level players reaching thousands of unspent resources.

Yet the exponential relationship between income and unspent resources holds up, even at very high income levels. It looks like it may begin to deviate slightly for income > 2000. In other words: sure, Grandmaster players start to accumulate lots of money in these situations, but they are still spending it much better than lower league players. This is probably largely due to stronger players thinking of clever ways to keep spending to try to improve their position even when maxed, e.g., making efficient army trades, sacrificing units to make tech switches, etc.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Daozzt
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1263 Posts
September 16 2011 20:11 GMT
#382
Pretty sick write up. Can't say I'm surprised by the results though.
Surrealz
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States449 Posts
September 16 2011 20:12 GMT
#383
Being a mathematician and a SC2 player this thread makes me smile. You did a very good job! The data was well presented and easy to follow, with specific colorings and equations/explanations included. Very nice.

It would be interesting to try and integrate SQ into other parameter tests and see if there are any relationships there as well.

My only complaint is the small sample size of 100 games per, which is really really low for the kind of claims you are making. If it was 1000 games per I would be much more confident in these results.
1a2a3a
sashamunguia
Profile Joined February 2011
Mexico423 Posts
September 16 2011 20:13 GMT
#384
fucking, FUCKING AWESOME!!!
:D yeah!!!!, finally some ppl bringing math into SC2

you did a pretty nice representation of data. We all know it can be improved a lot and start considering many other tiny factors perhaps, but this is a huge step forwards really. I cant wait to see teams having their own charts measuring their progress, or some other nerds polishing your equations even further.

Suggestions:
--- What about taking in account differences not only in races, but for example, in matches, i.e. would a terran macro as hard playing against a zerg as he does vs another terran?
--- When taken in account the games to make the averages and shit, it may be nice (If I do my games) to exclude "awkward" games, like the ones in which i lost 40 SCVs to BFH. Or taking a loot at the other side of the coin, what about (again, me myself of my games) making a separate chart for this kind of "awkward" games, to measure how good was my macro-reactin after losing a buckload of SCVs.
--- Talking to MLG, SC2CHARTS , or TeamLiquid, whoever in order to establish a database, and compare the macroing abilities of different players. SC2CHARTS Is a very good place to incorporate this IMO :D, and well, MLG releases his own numbers after each event (number of motherships used and shit hahah but they might as well use their numbers for something better )
"only the need for meaning changes how you feel about what you see" "he who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life" "being a Rebel is as stupid as to be completely Obedient"
theBOOCH
Profile Joined November 2010
United States832 Posts
September 16 2011 20:14 GMT
#385
I haven't read it all yet, but I examined all of the graphs, and holy macrorony, it's such good data!
If all you're offering is Dos Equis, I will stay thirsty thank you very much.
Reclus
Profile Joined January 2011
Norway1 Post
September 16 2011 20:15 GMT
#386
This is pretty cool. No surprise really, but it seems to be a pretty significant difference.

Could you please post the coefficients and p-values, as I would like to be able to compare my worker production to the different leagues. It would also be awesome if you could test if the difference between the leagues are significant, and on what levels.

Thanks for the entertaining read!
betaflame
Profile Joined November 2010
175 Posts
September 16 2011 20:18 GMT
#387
really cool! Thanks for the great analysis.
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
September 16 2011 20:18 GMT
#388
This is an awesome write up man with some interesting stats. Thanks!
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
stanik
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada213 Posts
September 16 2011 20:22 GMT
#389
Games ending 0 - 10 min (4 games) - SQ = 98.5
Games ending 11-20 min (4 games) - SQ = 97.4
Games ending 20-30 min (13 games) - SQ = 88.8
Average SQ of 92.3
Avg SQ in Wins 93.3
Avg SQ in Loss 91.2
Average Unspent Resources - 609
Average Resource Collection - 1444

I am a low Masters Terran
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
September 16 2011 20:24 GMT
#390
On September 17 2011 05:00 kmh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2011 04:51 Clbull wrote:
I don't feel that SQ is a very accurate formula for calculating how good a player is at macro. It makes sense for earlier games but what about with the late game.

[...] snip


Without. SQ = ~50.96 average

If it's important, I am a high Gold League Zerg.


Guess what? Your results fall into the expected range for a gold league player regardless of that inaccuracy.

Does that matter? It was still significantly lower than it should have been regardless. 8 points less is a big fucking deal.
Horse...falcon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1851 Posts
September 16 2011 20:24 GMT
#391
My god if you could do what you did for Idra for all the top players that would be incredible
Artosis: "From horsssse....falcon"
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
September 16 2011 20:24 GMT
#392
Staggering effort, I really appreciate this!
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
stanik
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada213 Posts
September 16 2011 20:29 GMT
#393
On September 17 2011 03:28 Grobyc wrote:
Woah, the difference in workers produced between Grandmasters and Masters is actually a lot more than I expected.

Nice work and easy to understand, thanks whatthefat


I think much of that difference comes from Grandmasters having to replace workers that are lost from superior harassment from opponents.

or maybe masters players forgetting to replace lost workers.
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
September 16 2011 20:29 GMT
#394
On September 17 2011 05:00 kmh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2011 04:51 Clbull wrote:
I don't feel that SQ is a very accurate formula for calculating how good a player is at macro. It makes sense for earlier games but what about with the late game.

[...] snip


Without. SQ = ~50.96 average

If it's important, I am a high Gold League Zerg.


Guess what? Your results fall into the expected range for a gold league player regardless of that inaccuracy.


Haha you're right. I think people need to sample more of their own games instead of taking a small range with several odd ball games that could throw it off before they can correlate SQ with skill.

And that's also probably assuming you're playing to win. What would happen if someone just cheesed 100% of his games and had high SQ. That's why I say, people should categorize their data into time frames. Anyone who follows a build order closely will have high SQ. It doesn't mean much if all your SQ data points are between 5-10 minutes in game length. It just means you can spend efficiently in a relatively easy time frame. We all know the longer the game, the better chance the better player will reveal itself. And I feel the mass banking / mass production games don't happen that often.

Even ask yourself, is it easy for you to keep your money low in the beginning of the game? I always fall apart later in the game while pros can spend much better than me at 15 minutes. In the end, you will always have a collection of long and short games and your low SQ for long games will drag your average SQ down unless you make a strong effort to leave the game after your cheese fails and you cheese every game. That isn't much different than gold players spamming to 100+ APM.

On September 17 2011 05:22 stanik wrote:
Games ending 0 - 10 min (4 games) - SQ = 98.5
Games ending 11-20 min (4 games) - SQ = 97.4
Games ending 20-30 min (13 games) - SQ = 88.8
Average SQ of 92.3
Avg SQ in Wins 93.3
Avg SQ in Loss 91.2
Average Unspent Resources - 609
Average Resource Collection - 1444

I am a low Masters Terran


Like what this guy did.

On September 17 2011 05:24 Clbull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2011 05:00 kmh wrote:
On September 17 2011 04:51 Clbull wrote:
I don't feel that SQ is a very accurate formula for calculating how good a player is at macro. It makes sense for earlier games but what about with the late game.

[...] snip


Without. SQ = ~50.96 average

If it's important, I am a high Gold League Zerg.


Guess what? Your results fall into the expected range for a gold league player regardless of that inaccuracy.

Does that matter? It was still significantly lower than it should have been regardless. 8 points less is a big fucking deal.


You can't throw out a data point just because you don't like it. It happens. Sometimes you get a data point that so far off every other data point in anything. You just need to get a larger sample.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
September 16 2011 20:30 GMT
#395
How does queuing units affect average unspent resources? It seems like Terran would have a slight spending advantage in this regard compared to Protoss and zerg.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
GhostFall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States830 Posts
September 16 2011 20:31 GMT
#396
In theory, wouldn't this model not work for Terran because they can queue a lot more units than the other 2 races, essentially keeping money low, but not truly showing good macro?
Ebos
Profile Joined November 2010
United States44 Posts
September 16 2011 20:31 GMT
#397
Amazing work, absolutly love it. For all you people that are excel noobs you can quickly calculate your scores by doing the following.

Avg Unspent resource in Column A
Avg Resource collection rate in Column B
This formula in column C =35*(0.00137*B1 - LN(A1))+240
Then use the fill down option by selecting column c row 1 and highting multiple rows in column and clicking ctrl+d to fill down.


intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
September 16 2011 20:40 GMT
#398
holy shit
Moderatorsloppy little slug
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
September 16 2011 20:42 GMT
#399
On September 17 2011 05:30 Amui wrote:
How does queuing units affect average unspent resources? It seems like Terran would have a slight spending advantage in this regard compared to Protoss and zerg.


I think it'd be no different than APM spamming. Most players play hoping not to queue units. Just like players hope to have a high effective APM and not make an effort to inflate it. Doing either would probably harm your game by slowing you down doing bad actions (queuing or needless spamming).

I also need to note that I'm talking about spamming not tapping.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
BushidoSnipr
Profile Joined November 2010
United States910 Posts
September 16 2011 20:43 GMT
#400
Holy shit...Amazing post. Love the math formulas they 're pretty interesting. Looking forward to predicting matches with these formulas haha.

Just imagine

y=complex equation, when y does not equal cheese
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