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On September 16 2011 06:33 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? We aren't saying we can do it better. We're saying what they've done is shit. You go to a restaurant and order a burger, you spit it out on the floor and stomp on it. Not because you could make a better burger it's because the one you got just is shit to what you thought you'd get. And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league.
that'd be why Im not buying HoTS. prove they can fix their game, and then maybe I will buy their "expansions".
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On September 16 2011 05:43 FryktSkyene wrote:
NP 7
EMP 10
Anyone know snipe by chance?
Snipe is same range as broodlord range I think? so probably 10,
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On September 16 2011 11:13 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:10 Zdrastochye wrote:
Make NP range of 5, allow them to cast it and FG while burrowed, balance problem solved! Or not. Burrowed fungal? Really? Honest question, what stops Z burrowing their infestors before an engagement, bringing them into 7 range and unburrowing to NP, and then reburrowing?.
that would be observers =]
Secondly, people keep saying that the infestor is the best choice in every matchup. Does anyone else read between the fucking lines? If 1 unit trumps everything else, it isnt because that unit is necessarily OP. it means that all other units are shitty, and arent cost effective or efficient enough to compete with it. in that sense, yeah, infestors are really versatile, im not denying that. but the fact that all other zerg units are so shitty that its not even worth getting them, i think that is a much larger problem than fungal growth.
tldr; theres a reason people would rather get infestors over BL/corrupter/hydra/ultra. that reason is because those other units arent as cost effective or useful enough to compete, which is the real problem.
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Thank god I can still NP massive units, if I couldn't NP the Mothership I'd cry. I'd need like 10000 overseers to detect  . This might make the game more balanced without severely crippling zerg, since neural parasite seemed sort of strong when infestors were massed.
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On September 16 2011 11:15 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:06 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 Resistentialism wrote:On September 16 2011 11:03 Belisarius wrote:
Question to Zerg: why does nobody burrow their infestors after NP? would help a lot. Well on that one, it's channelled, isn't it? No, you can definitely burrow an infestor that's controlling something. You just can't cast NP from burrow. I don't know, but you might even be able to fungal with an infestor channeling NP so long as you have the energy. No you can't. That was a bug that they removed in 1.1.
I'm not seeing that in the patch notes. I'm happy to be wrong, I'd only ever done it in challenges or whatever, but I'd like to have that confirmed.
If it has been removed, maybe it should be brought back. I wouldn't have called it OP anyway.
EDIT:
On September 16 2011 11:19 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:13 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:10 Zdrastochye wrote:
Make NP range of 5, allow them to cast it and FG while burrowed, balance problem solved! Or not. Burrowed fungal? Really? Honest question, what stops Z burrowing their infestors before an engagement, bringing them into 7 range and unburrowing to NP, and then reburrowing?. that would be observers =]
You cut out the other bit of my post that about cheaper overseers et al...
You really can't deny observers over your own army at 200/200?
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this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players
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On September 16 2011 11:16 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:43 FryktSkyene wrote:
NP 7
EMP 10
Anyone know snipe by chance?
Snipe is same range as broodlord range I think? so probably 10,
definitely 10
Although to the previous poster, comparing the two casters heads up won't get you very far unless you play tournament games in a unit tester.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
I think this change its pretty much better than the other version for Zerg, but at the same time its good for toss, infestor will require positioning and micro control from zerg player imo.
which is good for the game in general, not just A-move and Cast spell as fast as u can.
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On September 16 2011 11:20 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:15 Daniri wrote:On September 16 2011 11:06 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 Resistentialism wrote:On September 16 2011 11:03 Belisarius wrote:
Question to Zerg: why does nobody burrow their infestors after NP? would help a lot. Well on that one, it's channelled, isn't it? No, you can definitely burrow an infestor that's controlling something. You just can't cast NP from burrow. I don't know, but you might even be able to fungal with an infestor channeling NP so long as you have the energy. No you can't. That was a bug that they removed in 1.1. I'm not seeing that in the patch notes. I'm happy to be wrong, I'd only ever done it in challenges or whatever, but I'd like to have that confirmed. If it has been removed, maybe it should be brought back. I wouldn't have called it OP anyway.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136181
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On September 16 2011 10:26 hobosrus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 10:21 hobosrus wrote:
Blizzard wanted it this way so you have to get good positioning on your infestors, instead of going e(that is the hotkey right?) click on all the giant floating heads with laserbeams Im so tired of zergs saying their race has design flaws. WHAT DESIGN FLAWS????? roaches are one of the most cost efficient units in the game not so much against terran (because of seige tanks and marauders) but they pretty much own pretty much every gateway based army. Even blink stalkers requires excellent micro and if you add some infestors with the roaches that get nullified. Hydra is one of the greatest dps dealers in the game against everything. mutas are probably the best harassment unit and they can compliment ling bling quite nicely (which is why that is standard) im just trying to understand what zergs find so bad about their units????
colossus has range of 9, np has range of 9, but none of the two units are front line units, colossus are in the back while your gateway/FF are set up at the front. all your infestors will just walk around in front line getting killed if you ever walk them up like that.
blink stalkers get nullified by infestors, not roaches. Lings with fungal is amazing against it too
Roaches are good until the protoss has good forcefields, they don't do all that well against a good mix of gateway units.
Hydras are slow to reinforce, they are fragile, you can't be aggressive with a hydra army unless you have creep highway, they are expensive.
if you can't understand why we complain about our units, go play zerg. Or watch some high level player's roaches getting FF'd out and lose half of them
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:21 coL.CatZ wrote:
this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players
ok, what will be a good change for you? Can please elaborate something balanced?
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Damn I guess Archons and Thors are an nonviable unit against Zerg again, sob. Time to go back to traditional Colossi 3 base all-in deathball! This with the Immortal Range buff makes them so much stronger in PvZ, I am grateful for that.
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On September 16 2011 11:20 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:15 Daniri wrote:On September 16 2011 11:06 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 Resistentialism wrote:On September 16 2011 11:03 Belisarius wrote:
Question to Zerg: why does nobody burrow their infestors after NP? would help a lot. Well on that one, it's channelled, isn't it? No, you can definitely burrow an infestor that's controlling something. You just can't cast NP from burrow. I don't know, but you might even be able to fungal with an infestor channeling NP so long as you have the energy. No you can't. That was a bug that they removed in 1.1. I'm not seeing that in the patch notes. I'm happy to be wrong, I'd only ever done it in challenges or whatever, but I'd like to have that confirmed. If it has been removed, maybe it should be brought back. I wouldn't have called it OP anyway. EDIT: Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:19 Soulriser wrote:On September 16 2011 11:13 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:10 Zdrastochye wrote:
Make NP range of 5, allow them to cast it and FG while burrowed, balance problem solved! Or not. Burrowed fungal? Really? Honest question, what stops Z burrowing their infestors before an engagement, bringing them into 7 range and unburrowing to NP, and then reburrowing?. that would be observers =] You cut out the other bit of my post that about cheaper overseers et al... You really can't deny observers over your own army at 200/200?
im pretty sure ive see toss get more than one observer so they can have one over their own army, specifically for that kind of play. if not, then they must be a lot stupider then i thought they were.
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On September 16 2011 11:21 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:20 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:15 Daniri wrote:On September 16 2011 11:06 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 Resistentialism wrote:On September 16 2011 11:03 Belisarius wrote:
Question to Zerg: why does nobody burrow their infestors after NP? would help a lot. Well on that one, it's channelled, isn't it? No, you can definitely burrow an infestor that's controlling something. You just can't cast NP from burrow. I don't know, but you might even be able to fungal with an infestor channeling NP so long as you have the energy. No you can't. That was a bug that they removed in 1.1. I'm not seeing that in the patch notes. I'm happy to be wrong, I'd only ever done it in challenges or whatever, but I'd like to have that confirmed. If it has been removed, maybe it should be brought back. I wouldn't have called it OP anyway. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136181
But that thread is about something else. That's a bug that allowed you to cast NP/fugal while burrowed if you did it very quickly after burrowing. What I'm talking about is casting NP while above-ground and then burrowing to protect the infestor while it's channelling.
I hate to keep harping on about this, particularly if I am wrong, but I really haven't gotten a straight answer yet. And I can't test it myself because I'm on my phone.
On September 16 2011 11:26 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:20 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:15 Daniri wrote:On September 16 2011 11:06 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 Resistentialism wrote:On September 16 2011 11:03 Belisarius wrote:
Question to Zerg: why does nobody burrow their infestors after NP? would help a lot. Well on that one, it's channelled, isn't it? No, you can definitely burrow an infestor that's controlling something. You just can't cast NP from burrow. I don't know, but you might even be able to fungal with an infestor channeling NP so long as you have the energy. No you can't. That was a bug that they removed in 1.1. I'm not seeing that in the patch notes. I'm happy to be wrong, I'd only ever done it in challenges or whatever, but I'd like to have that confirmed. If it has been removed, maybe it should be brought back. I wouldn't have called it OP anyway. EDIT: On September 16 2011 11:19 Soulriser wrote:On September 16 2011 11:13 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:10 Zdrastochye wrote:
Make NP range of 5, allow them to cast it and FG while burrowed, balance problem solved! Or not. Burrowed fungal? Really? Honest question, what stops Z burrowing their infestors before an engagement, bringing them into 7 range and unburrowing to NP, and then reburrowing?. that would be observers =] You cut out the other bit of my post that about cheaper overseers et al... You really can't deny observers over your own army at 200/200? im pretty sure ive see toss get more than one observer so they can have one over their own army, specifically for that kind of play. if not, then they must be a lot stupider then i thought they were.
Alright. With the NP change, an observer sitting over a colossus can detect infestors for 5 range before they can cast NP on the colossus, so that's a fair enough point. It's always felt like I needed to have them much further forward to deny burrow, which meant they got overseer'd/corruptored/fungal'd very rapidly. I guess I did need them further forward when np was range 9.
I stand corrected.
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Make storms range to 10 :D
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On September 16 2011 11:26 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:21 Daniri wrote:On September 16 2011 11:20 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:15 Daniri wrote:On September 16 2011 11:06 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:04 Resistentialism wrote:On September 16 2011 11:03 Belisarius wrote:
Question to Zerg: why does nobody burrow their infestors after NP? would help a lot. Well on that one, it's channelled, isn't it? No, you can definitely burrow an infestor that's controlling something. You just can't cast NP from burrow. I don't know, but you might even be able to fungal with an infestor channeling NP so long as you have the energy. No you can't. That was a bug that they removed in 1.1. I'm not seeing that in the patch notes. I'm happy to be wrong, I'd only ever done it in challenges or whatever, but I'd like to have that confirmed. If it has been removed, maybe it should be brought back. I wouldn't have called it OP anyway. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136181 What I'm talking about is casting NP while above-ground and then burrowing to protect the infestor while it's channelling. I hate to keep harping on about this, particularly if I am wrong, but I really haven't gotten a straight answer yet. And I can't test it myself because I'm on my phone.
Well in that case you've never been able to do that.
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On September 16 2011 11:19 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:13 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:10 Zdrastochye wrote:
Make NP range of 5, allow them to cast it and FG while burrowed, balance problem solved! Or not. Burrowed fungal? Really? Honest question, what stops Z burrowing their infestors before an engagement, bringing them into 7 range and unburrowing to NP, and then reburrowing?. that would be observers =] Secondly, people keep saying that the infestor is the best choice in every matchup. Does anyone else read between the fucking lines? If 1 unit trumps everything else, it isnt because that unit is necessarily OP. it means that all other units are shitty, and arent cost effective or efficient enough to compete with it. in that sense, yeah, infestors are really versatile, im not denying that. but the fact that all other zerg units are so shitty that its not even worth getting them, i think that is a much larger problem than fungal growth. tldr; theres a reason people would rather get infestors over BL/corrupter/hydra/ultra. that reason is because those other units arent as cost effective or useful enough to compete, which is the real problem.
How often do you see Nestea and Losira mass infestors?
Typical "my units are horrible, all die in one hit, always have to sacrifice 100 food for 10" qq mentality.
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On September 16 2011 11:26 Belisarius wrote:EDIT: Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:19 Soulriser wrote:On September 16 2011 11:13 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2011 11:10 Zdrastochye wrote:
Make NP range of 5, allow them to cast it and FG while burrowed, balance problem solved! Or not. Burrowed fungal? Really? Honest question, what stops Z burrowing their infestors before an engagement, bringing them into 7 range and unburrowing to NP, and then reburrowing?. that would be observers =] You cut out the other bit of my post that about cheaper overseers et al... You really can't deny observers over your own army at 200/200?
im pretty sure ive see toss get more than one observer so they can have one over their own army, specifically for that kind of play. if not, then they must be a lot stupider then i thought they were.
[/QUOTE]
Alright. With the NP change, an observer sitting over a colossus can detect infestors for 5 range before they can cast NP on the colossus, so that's a fair enough point. It's always felt like I needed to have them much further forward to deny burrow, which meant they got overseer'd/corruptored/fungal'd very rapidly. I guess I did need them further forward when np was range 9.
I stand corrected.[/QUOTE]
i mean, its a good idea? i guess. but stalkers have a pretty big range. i think its 6? so if you had infestors pop up in front, theyd die instantly. anywhere else around the toss army and theyre pretty much removed from the rest of the fight. so roaches vs FF and stalkers kinda just.. die. and then your festors are too far away to do anything. :/ im trying to figure out this 'positioning' that everyone is telling us zergs to do now.
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On September 16 2011 11:26 Belisarius wrote:
No commands work while channelling NP, just tested it.
The icons don't grey out, but it just queues up whatever order you give the infestor to perform AFTER the NP is worn out.
Other finding, if you NP with an already NP'd infestor, you get to keep second infestor for the whole duration, despite losing control of the first one.
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EPT
