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On September 16 2011 09:14 ePBuckets wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 09:11 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 09:09 ePBuckets wrote:
i think the 9 to 7 range change is good.
@ the post above i agree give back khydarian amulet
reason being is warp in storms isnt THAT big a deal, with storm you can micro your units OUT of the storm.
with fungal its a snare, you are rooted in place, andt hen you can be chained for ever really.
fungal is also a DoT, and also stops spell casting.
i honestly thing if fungal was a slow and not a snare the infestor and the balance of the game would be exactly that; balanced. I was joking, khydarian amulet was extremely strong, I was just comparing it to him saying "people just need to play about against this" when theoretically you shouldn't be taking more than 20 damage from a storm. well warp in storms are a thing of the past, i think its unfair that every other race's spell caster has a research for increased energy but hightemplar get shitted on. and still, fungal needs to be a slow and not a snare, and then its all balanced.
That is how the warping system works instead of being "unfair" compared to other casters.
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On September 16 2011 09:11 BurningSera wrote:
why do i feel like this dev team really hated Zerg? they take away anything that is considered slightly good of the race like old ultra's range, and now this infestor's uber nerf. seriously, there are many other problems in the games but they love to pick on zerg. why blizzard?? why??
This nerf really gave me an impression that Blizzard is so determined to nerf infestor in some way(???), they nerfed the fungal but wasnt happy enough so in the end they just made another quick decision of giving it a shorter NP range rather than completing taking away from NP massive units.
who the hell (ever) complaint about NP???
It's because the Lair tech infestor can fill the role of a Hive tech unit with the range 9 NP only because it ranges thors and colossi equally. There's little incentive to tech to Hive when Infestors can fill pretty much every role a situation dictates with IT, FG, and NP range 9. NP range 7 makes them more of a soft counter and prompts the zerg player to get Hive tech to deal with larger numbers of units instead of just getting more infestors. The infestor is definitely a good unit and should be able to fill several roles, but it's really too good at all of them, especially when it is against units the other races need to deal with the infestor and late game armies
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So many people don't understand how the game works and how it needs to be balanced.
There was nothing wrong with NP in the first place. Infestors are fragile and have to channel to get it off and it was perfectly fine at the 9 range. The only reason it was so effective was because protoss never shifted out of their same build and playstyle and complained they could never win with simply having a deathball anymore after turtling.
The change to range 7 for NP is absolutely retarded. Infestors honestly might as well never even upgrade np because they will always be in range of being targeted and their np will last for 2 seconds tops before the infestor dies.
The zerg is full of weak ass units and with the double infestor debuff they will have pretty much no answer to a toss or terran who turtles on 3 bases and pushes with a large deathball. I don't mind a fungal change as they did and maybe even increase infested terrans to 30 or 35 energy each but making NP worthless takes away any play against massive units and I don't see any true way for zergs to combat the deathball until they get a buff in a future patch.
-masters player btw
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I'm glad they still allow Zergs to use NP against Massive. Tank/Thor armies were just too nasty, and I was afraid that Terran might go for late game BC to back up Marine/Tank/Thor armies. In regards to Colossus, it'll be more about slowing down the push and weakening the units than it will be for NPing Colossi
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On September 16 2011 09:15 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:48 Soulriser wrote:On September 16 2011 08:45 tuho12345 wrote:On September 16 2011 08:42 Soulriser wrote:On September 16 2011 08:40 AudionovA wrote:
Why don't you guys just do Overlord/Infester micro.... like reaver/shuttle micro from BW. Just use OV to gain the positional advantage. because stalkers shoot them dead. really fast. so spending 100 minerals on OL, 200/200 on drop, 100/100 on speed, then 100/150 per infestor only to have it shot down by stalkers seems kinda like a waste lol welcome to how Protoss feel about their paper plane and HTs. yes and no? i mean, i agree with the cost and stuff, but if we could have all of our larvae produce from our overlords, like you can with GWs and portapylons, then i would agree completely. =P (yes i agree that having like, 6 hatches worth of larvae pop at once is a considerable difference between 13 GWs or soemthing. but its the concept im talking about) We're talking about putting infestors in overlord lol. Just like putting HTs in paperism right?
I saw a post further back and now prefer the term "portapylon." It's shitty, like a portapotty, but a pylon too!
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On September 16 2011 09:15 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 09:03 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 08:53 Mjolnir wrote:On September 16 2011 08:46 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 08:32 Mjolnir wrote:
Maybe people will finally start spreading units and focusing Infestors...
You know, like they should have months ago before they started qqing for nerfs.
lmao where did this even come from? What about a neural parasite nerf will make people "finally start spreading units and focusing infestors" more than before..most random QQ I've ever seen. It's not a qq. Jesus. People almost never focus infestors, yet cry about NP taking their units. Solution: Focus down the infestors using NP. People bitch and complain about FG, yet continue to 1-group move an army into combat. Solution: Spread units. Now that range is 7, maybe people won't be so lazy and actually make an attempt to snipe a NPing Infestor. Basically, maybe people will stop playing like they did 6 months ago when Infestors were a non-issue and, I don't know, fucking adapt before they cry about something being OP. Honestly, NP is, and always was, the easiest spell to see and counter in the game. Er yes, it was pretty much the definition of QQ, whining about a nerf and claiming that people should just play better. You said you play terran and zerg, not protoss. How exactly are you going to focus fire down the 9 range infestors when your army is fungal growthed? That's the problem and the reason the range is reduced. This thread isn't even about fungal growth so I have no idea why you are bringing that up. On that same note give back khydarian amulet, storm can be dodged, l2 spread your units bro. Its probably the easiest spell to see and counter in the game because it's actually a huge carpet of lightning on your army and you can just move forward out of it and get yourself a nice juicy templar. Too bad the game doesn't work like that. It's not a fucking QQ! Jeeeeeesus. I don't care about a nerf - I don't even use Infestors in anything but ZvZ where NP is useless anyhow. I was simply saying that perhaps now people will do what they could have done ages ago but just. didn't. bother. to. do. Only reason I included FG and unit spread was because it's another thing I see people neglect like crazy at my level of play (i.e. where they should certainly know better). I was actually against the KA nerf. I was also against nerfing reapers, and altering the rax/supply build order - things that specifically impacted me at the time each was discussed as I was mainly a Zerg player when T was rolling every Z with fast rax or 4-5 rax reaper; and I was beginning to use Z and T around the time KA was getting hammered. All of the above nerfs, and others, including this NP nerf are changes that I strongly feel have been implemented before they should have been. The community needs time to adapt, not have the game change around the opinions of it's most vocal members (usually the ones who don't want to figure out alternatives to playstyle). So, while I don't actually play Protoss, I think your race got the shaft for a number of things that just didn't need to be changed. So did Terran. And so is Zerg. Honestly, NP is freaking easy to pick off. It's easy to avoid. I honestly can't recall a really high-level pro match (GSL) where NP was the deciding factor in a game or series of games. I may be wrong, I haven't seen every GSL match. Either way, it's a silly nerf because the spell is silly and easy to avoid anyhow; but I'm sure as shit not QQing about it; merely pointing out how absurd it is to nerf an absurd spell that is absurdly easy to deal with.
Lol, I see. But it's not that easy to deal with at all from the protoss point of view if the zerg is good with his positioning. Also try facing mass infestor/broodlord/corruptor with the zerg just sitting there. If he micros properly literally nothing you do can take his army out even if you use carriers. I don't play terran so I have no idea whether or not it's harder for terran to deal with infestor/broodlord but it's not pleasant. The only possible counter I can think of is launching carrier interceptors at your own units to deploy them since they have 14 range once deployed, but if they have a ton of corruptors then what?
The reason you don't see it in the GSL is because ZvP ends before infestors even come out most of the time. I watch Korean zerg streams sometimes, it's almost always a roflstomp in the late game no matter what the protoss tries.
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On September 16 2011 09:17 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 09:14 ePBuckets wrote:On September 16 2011 09:11 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 09:09 ePBuckets wrote:
i think the 9 to 7 range change is good.
@ the post above i agree give back khydarian amulet
reason being is warp in storms isnt THAT big a deal, with storm you can micro your units OUT of the storm.
with fungal its a snare, you are rooted in place, andt hen you can be chained for ever really.
fungal is also a DoT, and also stops spell casting.
i honestly thing if fungal was a slow and not a snare the infestor and the balance of the game would be exactly that; balanced. I was joking, khydarian amulet was extremely strong, I was just comparing it to him saying "people just need to play about against this" when theoretically you shouldn't be taking more than 20 damage from a storm. well warp in storms are a thing of the past, i think its unfair that every other race's spell caster has a research for increased energy but hightemplar get shitted on. and still, fungal needs to be a slow and not a snare, and then its all balanced. That is how the warping system works instead of being "unfair" compared to other casters.
interestsing... we don't get an energy boost because we can warp units in rather than wait for build times. we still have cooldowns but i suppose thats still a touch faster than the time it'd take for an infestor or ghost to be made.
But then someone did the math on how long it'd take to get that extra energy and wasnt it like 44~seconds+?
idk how balanced that all is, i thnk all the spell casters need work.
Ghost EMP should be a research imo, fungal should be a slow, and HT energy/amulet need reworking so its a little more balanced. but i think the amulet should still be there D:
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Pretty huge nerf. Different wording but the result is the same, neural is pretty much useless.
It was already impossible to neural collossi unless the Protoss was clueless, so that won't change. But it'll make thors very hard to neural too now, which I don't agree with.
I really feel there was an infestor "bubble", where people seriously overrated the effect of every spell. I even saw people go with some of the most retarded arguments I've seen on this forum, like "you take 20 food worth of our units from us, then it's like a 220 army against a 180 army!".
The truth is that against Protoss neural was always impractical and easy to deal with. I never saw it as a stable way to deal with collossi.
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On September 16 2011 09:21 ePBuckets wrote:
Ghost EMP should be a research imo, fungal should be a slow, and HT energy/amulet need reworking so its a little more balanced. but i think the amulet should still be there D:
I think then there would be a problem when you combine colossi and HT and how much burst damage you get from instantly being able to storm/laser when without KA you at least need to prepare for it.
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rofl nurfing zerg when terran still has the best win rate.
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On September 16 2011 09:21 ePBuckets wrote:
interestsing... we don't get an energy boost because we can warp units in rather than wait for build times. we still have cooldowns but i suppose thats still a touch faster than the time it'd take for an infestor or ghost to be made.
Don't forget that you can reinforce instantly when you attack which saves the additional time a Ghost or Infestor needs to walk to the front.
And Prism harrass with insta storm can be quite nasty aswell :p
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On September 16 2011 09:24 MilesTeg wrote:
Pretty huge nerf. Different wording but the result is the same, neural is pretty much useless..
i'm inclined to agree with you. There will be niche uses, such as in ling bane (drops) infestor in a crazy game where the armies keep getting whittled down. But in turtly games I doubt NP will have a use due to sentry preservation [if infestors get in range now, Protoss has made a huge blunder. + you can just kill them with a maxed amount of collosus/HT].
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I love how at the time KA was annoying, but in retrospect it was a complete game breaker. Especially at a time when people are coming to realise that Protoss is actually god awful at defending.
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On September 16 2011 09:24 MilesTeg wrote:
Pretty huge nerf. Different wording but the result is the same, neural is pretty much useless.
It was already impossible to neural collossi unless the Protoss was clueless, so that won't change. But it'll make thors very hard to neural too now, which I don't agree with.
I really feel there was an infestor "bubble", where people seriously overrated the effect of every spell. I even saw people go with some of the most retarded arguments I've seen on this forum, like "you take 20 food worth of our units from us, then it's like a 220 army against a 180 army!".
The truth is that against Protoss neural was always impractical and easy to deal with. I never saw it as a stable way to deal with collossi.
As a protoss player, I see it as primarily fungal and IT that are dangerous, and if that doesn't pay off, there's still viable recourse in landing range 9 NPs... 1 on 1 it sounds hard, but when it's 3 colossi to about 7-8 infestors you can land them with good success
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damn, yeah i suppose KA is gone for good.
but fungal needs to be a slow not a snare, and emp needs to be a research D: (leave ghost with snipe natively imo)
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Neuraling Collosus was hard enough before. Now it'll be "Press e and click Protoss unit to lose your infestor". I don't know... the only use I see for it now is neuraling immortals maybe.
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On September 16 2011 09:24 IceSC wrote:
rofl nurfing zerg when terran still has the best win rate.
Yea, I will never understand why Zerg isn't allowed to have 50+% winrate.
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On September 16 2011 09:33 Uhh Negative wrote:
Neuraling Collosus was hard enough before. Now it'll be "Press e and click Protoss unit to lose your infestor". I don't know... the only use I see for it now is neuraling immortals maybe.
What about going Ling/Infestor and NPing his Zealots. The Zergling damage would be disgusting. Think outside the box, don't just aim for the biggest unit!
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On September 16 2011 08:06 Endymion wrote:
wow who even used NP anyways to the point where blizzard thought it needed a nerf?
D_s_ i_ y did.
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On September 16 2011 09:24 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 09:21 ePBuckets wrote:
Ghost EMP should be a research imo, fungal should be a slow, and HT energy/amulet need reworking so its a little more balanced. but i think the amulet should still be there D:
I think then there would be a problem when you combine colossi and HT and how much burst damage you get from instantly being able to storm/laser when without KA you at least need to prepare for it.
You do realize its very hard to mass Collosi and Storm? I agree with ePBuckets on almost everything. EMP is to good not to have it be a research. FG freeze is just stupid retarded. Chain Fungals are to good, and even with a dmg nerf you still can chain so it doesn't make a difference. Also freeze makes battles look retarded. And really now with the KA nerf I feel that either Storm needs either a dmg buff, or a size buff. KA buff would be good, but really insta storm was to good.
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EPT
