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On September 16 2011 08:33 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:28 clusen wrote:On September 16 2011 08:19 Absentia wrote:
Don't really think blizzard have given this change much thought since not so long ago they thought they were fixing NP by removing its ability to target massive units.
Blizzard tested the change on the test realm to see what it means for the game because they actually didn't know if it would fix the Infestor or not. Do you want to complain about the fact that they use the ptr for testing? "This change will not be reflected on the PTR, but we wanted to ensure that you were aware of the new changes before the StarCraft II Patch 1.4 is live." you should really read the patch notes before you talk about he patch notes. that way you wont sound stupid
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Doesn't change the fact that the first change for NP was on the PTR to be tested because they didn't know if it fixes the Infestor, does it?
That's all I was referring to, Einstein.
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Now this is a change I like!
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That's... well, not better or worse, just stupid in a different way.
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Why don't you guys just do Overlord/Infester micro.... like reaver/shuttle micro from BW. Just use OV to gain the positional advantage.
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On September 16 2011 08:40 AudionovA wrote:
Why don't you guys just do Overlord/Infester micro.... like reaver/shuttle micro from BW. Just use OV to gain the positional advantage.
because stalkers shoot them dead. really fast. so spending 100 minerals on OL, 200/200 on drop, 100/100 on speed, then 100/150 per infestor only to have it shot down by stalkers seems kinda like a waste
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On September 16 2011 08:39 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:33 Soulriser wrote:On September 16 2011 08:28 clusen wrote:On September 16 2011 08:19 Absentia wrote:
Don't really think blizzard have given this change much thought since not so long ago they thought they were fixing NP by removing its ability to target massive units.
Blizzard tested the change on the test realm to see what it means for the game because they actually didn't know if it would fix the Infestor or not. Do you want to complain about the fact that they use the ptr for testing? "This change will not be reflected on the PTR, but we wanted to ensure that you were aware of the new changes before the StarCraft II Patch 1.4 is live." you should really read the patch notes before you talk about he patch notes. that way you wont sound stupid ? Doesn't change the fact that the first change for NP was on the PTR to be tested because they didn't know if it fixes the Infestor, does it? That's all I was referring to, Einstein.
except they arent using testing for the new change, which kinda makes your first point invalid :/
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On September 16 2011 08:42 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:40 AudionovA wrote:
Why don't you guys just do Overlord/Infester micro.... like reaver/shuttle micro from BW. Just use OV to gain the positional advantage. because stalkers shoot them dead. really fast. so spending 100 minerals on OL, 200/200 on drop, 100/100 on speed, then 100/150 per infestor only to have it shot down by stalkers seems kinda like a waste
lol welcome to how Protoss feel about their paper plane and HTs.
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This is definitely much much better than not being able to NP massive units. Not sure whether 7 range is too small or not, but to all zergs whining that you wont be able to NP collosi or thors anymore because of smaller range, just engage with other units first and the collosus/thors wont auto attack your infestors.
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On September 16 2011 08:32 Mjolnir wrote:
Maybe people will finally start spreading units and focusing Infestors...
You know, like they should have months ago before they started qqing for nerfs.
lmao where did this even come from? What about a neural parasite nerf will make people "finally start spreading units and focusing infestors" more than before..most random QQ I've ever seen.
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On September 16 2011 08:28 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:19 Absentia wrote:
Don't really think blizzard have given this change much thought since not so long ago they thought they were fixing NP by removing its ability to target massive units.
Blizzard tested the change on the test realm to see what it means for the game because they actually didn't know if it would fix the Infestor or not. Do you want to complain about the fact that they use the ptr for testing?
Congratulations for pointing out the blatantly obvious fact that Blizzard uses a public test realm to help test their balance changes.
The point I was actually making was that they initially put forward an illogical pulled-out-of-their-ass balance change that practically nobody understood. Soon after, they revoke that change and replace it with another completely arbitrary one yet we're supposed to think that this change has been well thought out and planned for some time. That just doesn't seem very likely.
So no, I don't want to complain about using the PTR for testing but maybe I would prefer that the PTR is used to test things that have actually been properly thought out first.
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I duno about you guys, but i'm pretty sure you can get your infestors from 9 range to 7 range in the time it takes me to focus fire my immortals on your ultras
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On September 16 2011 08:45 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:42 Soulriser wrote:On September 16 2011 08:40 AudionovA wrote:
Why don't you guys just do Overlord/Infester micro.... like reaver/shuttle micro from BW. Just use OV to gain the positional advantage. because stalkers shoot them dead. really fast. so spending 100 minerals on OL, 200/200 on drop, 100/100 on speed, then 100/150 per infestor only to have it shot down by stalkers seems kinda like a waste lol welcome to how Protoss feel about their paper plane and HTs.
yes and no? i mean, i agree with the cost and stuff, but if we could have all of our larvae produce from our overlords, like you can with GWs and portapylons, then i would agree completely. =P (yes i agree that having like, 6 hatches worth of larvae pop at once is a considerable difference between 13 GWs or soemthing. but its the concept im talking about)
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On September 16 2011 08:36 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:32 Mjolnir wrote:
Maybe people will finally start spreading units and focusing Infestors...
You know, like they should have months ago before they started qqing for nerfs.
You can't spread and focus at the same time... and you especially can't against 10 infestors who chain FG and NP your shit when you're forced to engage.
You sure as shit can.
Don't put all your fucking marines in one control group.
One blob vs. 3 smaller groups.
Now you can focus on 3 different targets, or spread and hit one, or whatever the fuck else you want to do. I play Zerg and Terran about 50-50 at Master level. I can trounce Zergs that go Infestor when I'm Terran just by spreading.
I cannot believe how many Terrans are still content to ball up in one control group of marines and then whine when 2 fungals covers their entire army.
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i think its way better than not being able to NP masive... and the range WAS a bit OP. its almost impossible to snipe NPing infestors while being Fungaled..
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On September 16 2011 08:46 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:32 Mjolnir wrote:
Maybe people will finally start spreading units and focusing Infestors...
You know, like they should have months ago before they started qqing for nerfs.
lmao where did this even come from? What about a neural parasite nerf will make people "finally start spreading units and focusing infestors" more than before..most random QQ I've ever seen.
It's not a qq. Jesus.
People almost never focus infestors, yet cry about NP taking their units. Solution: Focus down the infestors using NP.
People bitch and complain about FG, yet continue to 1-group move an army into combat. Solution: Spread units.
Now that range is 7, maybe people won't be so lazy and actually make an attempt to snipe a NPing Infestor.
Basically, maybe people will stop playing like they did 6 months ago when Infestors were a non-issue and, I don't know, fucking adapt before they cry about something being OP. Honestly, NP is, and always was, the easiest spell to see and counter in the game.
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On September 16 2011 08:49 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:36 tehemperorer wrote:On September 16 2011 08:32 Mjolnir wrote:
Maybe people will finally start spreading units and focusing Infestors...
You know, like they should have months ago before they started qqing for nerfs.
You can't spread and focus at the same time... and you especially can't against 10 infestors who chain FG and NP your shit when you're forced to engage. You sure as shit can. Don't put all your fucking marines in one control group. One blob vs. 3 smaller groups. Now you can focus on 3 different targets, or spread and hit one, or whatever the fuck else you want to do. I play Zerg and Terran about 50-50 at Master level. I can trounce Zergs that go Infestor when I'm Terran just by spreading. I cannot believe how many Terrans are still content to ball up in one control group of marines and then whine when 2 fungals covers their entire army.
I play Protoss, and was saying that spreading your units in PvZ isn't a good way to then focus fire since you're just going to clump back up again.
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Definitely better change than not being able to neural at all. Range 9 was actually pretty insanely long, considering how that's the effective range of a siege tank in siege mode/colossi with range upgrade (they are the same range, right?).
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On September 16 2011 08:12 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:57 crms wrote:On September 16 2011 04:31 crms wrote:
blizzard seems just as lost and clueless as ever.
I don't mind that they nerf/buff shit but the ideas behind their changes just show a complete lack of intelligence to approaching this game as an esport. the direction and decision making behind their changes are heading sc2 to a sad place.
oh well d3/dota2 soon. ^_^ does nobody agree with this? Its not about the individual changes it's the fact they give almost no time for strategy/skill to increase. Anytime something is hard its immediately patched. This style of 'balancing' is going to make the game dull and boring. Imagine BW with this mentality. ~_~ Apparently, you don't know how the development process works. Right now, Blizzard is starting control fires to prevent certain aspects from getting out of control and killing the game. It's bad enough that 20 Terrans made it into Code S. Luckily, that seems to be the only place where Terrans are dominating (if you don't count Koreans winning foreign tournaments). Now imagine if ZvP was always Z favored everywhere in the West. It didn't get to that point, and it probably never will as long as Blizzard keeps this patching strategy. They're biding their time until they can introduce an additive/lateral strategy with an expansion that will attempt to fix shortcomings of each race. Until then, you can expect direct and indirect nerfs as the first step to balance.
perhaps im being unclear.
I understand nerfs/buffs come in the balancing process. What I don't like is blizzards seemingly philosophy of 'this it too hard, gonna nerf it.' I want changes that actually reflect a broken game, something you cannot do anything about. I dont want something nerfed if you can beat it through better unit control or positioning. I feel this is the approach blizzard is taking in their nerfs/buffs and that path is unsettling to me if sc2 is to be a great long lasting, exciting esport.
I honestly doubt lurkers would have ever been in the game if this balance team had a hold of BW, it's too hard for marines to micro around spines. I dont like that blizzard is always trying to have counter vs counter vs counter units, +dmg types etc. I wish that through great micro/gameplay almost any unit can beat any unit. Of course difficulty should scale but I think blizzard wants it to be 'if you have stalkers, I build marauders, Terran should win, he scouted and built the counter'. I find that playstyle boring and uninspiring.
I know this message is going to be misinterpreted and thats my fail to get my point across. Its a very hard point to type out for me. Bottomline I would say this; Neural Parasite isn't a spell that is fundamentally BREAKING the ZvP matchup, it isn't IMPOSSIBLE or even INSANELY difficult to deal with. The problem with ZvP matchup comes with from fundamental flaws in unit and race design and instead of address the subtle damage modifiers or unit capabilities they just point to NP and say 'hey this spell is pretty damn good, lets nerf it thereby making Z weaking, therby making P a little stronger, then let's see if ZvP gets closer to 50%' Rather than looking at the entire matchup from the very basic building blocks.
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On September 16 2011 03:59 Dice. wrote:
Zergs will have to be oh-so careful with the infestor after this change. Basically if you lose your infestors you lose the game...
Zerg players will forever T_T.
Blizzard will forever make the life of a Zerg player so hard to live...
Yes because its terrible that losing caster units causes you to lose; good thing no race has to deal with that.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/b/b7/Sentry-Templar.png/180px-Sentry-Templar.png)
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On September 16 2011 08:54 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 08:49 Mjolnir wrote:On September 16 2011 08:36 tehemperorer wrote:On September 16 2011 08:32 Mjolnir wrote:
Maybe people will finally start spreading units and focusing Infestors...
You know, like they should have months ago before they started qqing for nerfs.
You can't spread and focus at the same time... and you especially can't against 10 infestors who chain FG and NP your shit when you're forced to engage. You sure as shit can. Don't put all your fucking marines in one control group. One blob vs. 3 smaller groups. Now you can focus on 3 different targets, or spread and hit one, or whatever the fuck else you want to do. I play Zerg and Terran about 50-50 at Master level. I can trounce Zergs that go Infestor when I'm Terran just by spreading. I cannot believe how many Terrans are still content to ball up in one control group of marines and then whine when 2 fungals covers their entire army. I play Protoss, and was saying that spreading your units in PvZ isn't a good way to then focus fire since you're just going to clump back up again.
I don't know about you guys, but when I have a bunch of units spread out before combat, and then I engage, they don't clump up for shit. They all reach their respective ranges of the target and stop there while they attack. Usually that leaves them spread out more than enough to make FG dramatically weaker than it is if I just a-move them in on one control group.
Think of it like this (or try this):
3 stalkers side by side, send them to attack a pylon.
3 stalkers far apart, send them to attack a pylon.
The difference is obvious, and still applies to large armies. It's not as effective at 200/200 supply engagements from both sides as it is in early game skirmishes but it still works quite well.
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EPT
