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Another Neural Parasite Change. - Page 33

Forum Index > SC2 General
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nitdkim
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1264 Posts
September 15 2011 22:57 GMT
#641
Neural is even more worthless now...
PM me if you want random korean images translated.
MMello
Profile Joined October 2010
279 Posts
September 15 2011 22:58 GMT
#642
On September 16 2011 07:46 aWildRATTATA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 07:37 tehemperorer wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:34 aWildRATTATA wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:31 tehemperorer wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:29 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:27 branflakes14 wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:26 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
How many times do you see NP beeing used without the infestors getting sniped. Now imagine the same with less range. Awful change... I rather take the non massive and NP 1 blink out of range than this.


If it happens often you won't even notice the range change :D


Well played Sir! I guess the appropriate reaction is to burn your mana on fungals rather than hoping the enemy doesnt move. Or combine fungal and NP which at least takes some skill and keeps them alive for at least 1 blink cooldown.

Nope just find their sentries and fungal them, then move in for the gg. It's often times just that easy.

3 fungals, 12 seconds. Go try it against someone who keeps them on a seperate hotkey.

High masters, zergs do it all the time. engage, sac a portion of lings to fungal the sentries; I have to stay balled up anyways and if my position is too spread I either lose lone sentries or drop too many FF.

If it's ling roach infestor, I get baited force fields to deplete the energy too; after that there's not much you can do about anything. With infestors and NP/FG combo like it is, the outcome of the engagements in PvZ are way too pivotal/decisive and balance is way too fragile.

Going to learn that style this week. Thx!

One last question; so forcing a zergs reaction isnt enough to get an advantage as long as his third lives?


Did you just make an account so you can sit here and attempt to troll people... Just stop acting like a noob.
٩(̾●̮̮̃̾•̃̾)۶ __̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__ <- FXO Gaming house
IamPryda
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1186 Posts
September 15 2011 23:01 GMT
#643
On September 16 2011 07:22 QTIP. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 07:17 IamPryda wrote:
Figures just like fungal not affecting air units got reverted by Zerg qq so does np. I wonder why no other options were looked at for the Templar before they just removed the amulet. It's pretty clear how the races are treated- terran is blizzards pride and joy and Zerg is the fully grown adult that blizzards feels the need to still baby and Protoss is the middle child no one gives a shit about


The whole "Blizz responds to QQ" argument is baseless bullshit. If you think they are that easily influenced by people crying then Infestors wouldn't even be in the game anymore.

"omg neural all my colossi gg qq"
"omg fungal my army can't move no micro gg qq"
"omg so many infested terrans gg qq"

As opposed to all the zergs who qq so much they were willing to step in front of a moving truck to stop a nerf to there precious infestor "because it would break the game" despite it not given a chance to see meta game around it
Moar banelings less qq
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
September 15 2011 23:02 GMT
#644
On September 16 2011 07:54 Sc2Null wrote:
why do people continually suggest that infestors are "easy" to mass..they are 150 each...If someone can mass a unit with such gas cost and have supporting units...your doing something wrong.

Because you can support them with units that cost almost no gas
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
September 15 2011 23:02 GMT
#645
On September 16 2011 07:54 Sc2Null wrote:
why do people continually suggest that infestors are "easy" to mass..they are 150 each...If someone can mass a unit with such gas cost and have supporting units...your doing something wrong.

PvZ: I think it's because zerg can use pure mineral units to defend expansions, and even 4 geysers without spending any of it on units plus the ability to dump it all at once makes for an easily massed unit. It's not like high templar, who cost the same amount of gas but are also fielded with high numbers of sentries and stalkers plus related tech.
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
September 15 2011 23:04 GMT
#646
On September 16 2011 07:58 MMello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 07:46 aWildRATTATA wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:37 tehemperorer wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:34 aWildRATTATA wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:31 tehemperorer wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:29 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:27 branflakes14 wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:26 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
How many times do you see NP beeing used without the infestors getting sniped. Now imagine the same with less range. Awful change... I rather take the non massive and NP 1 blink out of range than this.


If it happens often you won't even notice the range change :D


Well played Sir! I guess the appropriate reaction is to burn your mana on fungals rather than hoping the enemy doesnt move. Or combine fungal and NP which at least takes some skill and keeps them alive for at least 1 blink cooldown.

Nope just find their sentries and fungal them, then move in for the gg. It's often times just that easy.

3 fungals, 12 seconds. Go try it against someone who keeps them on a seperate hotkey.

High masters, zergs do it all the time. engage, sac a portion of lings to fungal the sentries; I have to stay balled up anyways and if my position is too spread I either lose lone sentries or drop too many FF.

If it's ling roach infestor, I get baited force fields to deplete the energy too; after that there's not much you can do about anything. With infestors and NP/FG combo like it is, the outcome of the engagements in PvZ are way too pivotal/decisive and balance is way too fragile.

Going to learn that style this week. Thx!

One last question; so forcing a zergs reaction isnt enough to get an advantage as long as his third lives?


Did you just make an account so you can sit here and attempt to troll people... Just stop acting like a noob.

Haha I didn't reply to that post because I didn't know if he was trolling or serious lol
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
tarodotoxin
Profile Joined July 2011
United States110 Posts
September 15 2011 23:04 GMT
#647
so they made the dumbest change ever in order to make this change seem less stupid....

retarded
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
September 15 2011 23:06 GMT
#648
wow who even used NP anyways to the point where blizzard thought it needed a nerf?
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 23:09:41
September 15 2011 23:06 GMT
#649
Well, at least it's not as bad as not being able to neural parasite thors ... I suppose we can live with that.

NP was only crucial for fighting mech ... against protoss armies, I feel FG and IT were 90% of the times more important.
Bora Pain minha porra!
rdj107
Profile Joined December 2010
United States336 Posts
September 15 2011 23:06 GMT
#650
On September 16 2011 07:46 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 07:43 rdj107 wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:39 tehemperorer wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:36 rdj107 wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:21 iamke55 wrote:
Looks like QQ wins again. At this point I really wish Idra and his legion of fanboys played Protoss instead. I have no doubt we would still have KA, NP wouldn't work vs massive, and roaches would have 3 range if that were the case.

Sorry but what? This is a stupid comment even when you're not shoehorning it in where it's completely irrelevant.

Also in what way is 7 range suddenly not a nerf? It's arguably worse than not effecting massive at all, how did the "QQ" win?

The 9 range NP negates a costly upgrade, that's not something that needs to be addressed?

Please don't argue against points I didn't make.

Your post indicates that 7 range is a nerf, and that QQ didn't win. In regards to the nerfed range, my post poses the problem that a 9 range NP (the way it is) currently negates a necessary and costly Protoss upgrade, which was intended to prompt you into rethinking your stance.

See that's the problem with starting unrelated arguments, you run the risk of starting them with people who already agree with you. I do happen to think np taking very expensive units is an issue: + Show Spoiler +
On September 10 2011 01:16 rdj107 wrote:
Ignoring the impulse rage at this, it does make sense. The ability to effectively take high cost units and make them your own mid battle is game breaking no matter how effective it is. My concern is that while yes, p and t can once again make those units without the crippling fear of having it flipped against them, zerg still doesn't have a truly effective way of taking down a high tier army with vastly out of proportion resource costs.

Specifically I'm talking about carriers/motherships and battlecruisers (bear with me). The massive ground units are an issue on their own, but their are units that work against them so I'll leave them out of this post.

Currently zerg has a total of 5 units that can hit air; spores, queens, mutas, hydras, and corrupters. Spores and queens have obvious practicality issues so I'll ignore those:

Mutas are a harass unit and a good one, but do not trade evenly with any unit that can hit them except stalkers/voids (?); this includes vikings and phoenixes, which honestly aren't that hard to get out along the techpaths of the high tier units mentioned. Due to this in a standard mix mutas are not a solution, as to have mutas be effective you need to invest in a lot of them which is going to cripple your ground army strength; this would only get worse if you tried infestor/muta/x due to high gas and (depending on x) supply cost.

Hydras are the most viable solution to air heavy late game comps, but results have already shown that hydra heavy mixes are fragile at best and hard countered at worse. And it does need to be a heavy mix to guarantee that the hydras do anything at all; a light smattering of them honestly isn't going to do anything unless the air units specifically don't focus them.

Finally corrupters...suck, which given that they are supposed to be what takes down the high tech air units is an issue. Very literally they suck huge amounts of supply for what they do, and are brought down by pretty much everything they aren't specifically supposed to counter. Voidrays, vikings, any air to ground, and indirectly even phoenixes work fine for just soaking shots while they slowly whittle down the corrupters trying to hunt down carriers that can retreat to extreme distances while still having interceptors fight. Also keep in mind that against battlecruisers, there's the danger of yamato instantly tipping the scales on corrupters trading cost effectively if the bc numbers are not constantly kept in line.

Beyond unit specific issues, they all have the common weakness of needing to be in very large numbers in order to have any sort of effect. When people bring up having a proper unit composition that just isn't the way zerg works. Its strength is pumping out massed pure unit armies for the situation and when you keep units in reserve to develop a proper composition this strength falters or outright disappears. For how ineffective all of these units are making them in advance isn't feasible.

Tl;dr: Neural parasite on certain units was gamebreaking, but without the threat of it against high tier air tech there will be little reason not to make them late game, bringing the issues zergs have dealing with air units into play harder than ever.



Your post states that 9 range is an issue and that QQ won, when this thread is about the range nerf that is going to go live. That makes no sense, especially when you try to decide what my stance on something is without me stating it. So again, please do not put words in my mouth to attempt to start an argument. There's plenty of other people here for you to argue with I'm sure.
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
September 15 2011 23:10 GMT
#651
Even if it might be a big nerf from 9 to 7 range, at least it's not as completely retarded as removing it's ability to work on massive units. If it's going to be nerfed then this is pretty reasonable yay for blizzard listening to feedback ^_^ (although they should have figured this out themselves)
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
September 15 2011 23:11 GMT
#652
On September 16 2011 08:06 Endymion wrote:
wow who even used NP anyways to the point where blizzard thought it needed a nerf?


It's the linchpin of all Zerg strategy apparently.
magnaflow
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1521 Posts
September 15 2011 23:11 GMT
#653
I don't know why you zergs are crying. If anything you should be happy that the only thing being nerfed is NP.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
September 15 2011 23:12 GMT
#654
On September 16 2011 07:57 crms wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 04:31 crms wrote:
blizzard seems just as lost and clueless as ever.

I don't mind that they nerf/buff shit but the ideas behind their changes just show a complete lack of intelligence to approaching this game as an esport. the direction and decision making behind their changes are heading sc2 to a sad place.

oh well d3/dota2 soon. ^_^



does nobody agree with this? Its not about the individual changes it's the fact they give almost no time for strategy/skill to increase. Anytime something is hard its immediately patched. This style of 'balancing' is going to make the game dull and boring. Imagine BW with this mentality. ~_~


Apparently, you don't know how the development process works. Right now, Blizzard is starting control fires to prevent certain aspects from getting out of control and killing the game. It's bad enough that 20 Terrans made it into Code S. Luckily, that seems to be the only place where Terrans are dominating (if you don't count Koreans winning foreign tournaments). Now imagine if ZvP was always Z favored everywhere in the West. It didn't get to that point, and it probably never will as long as Blizzard keeps this patching strategy.

They're biding their time until they can introduce an additive/lateral strategy with an expansion that will attempt to fix shortcomings of each race. Until then, you can expect direct and indirect nerfs as the first step to balance.
clusen
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany8702 Posts
September 15 2011 23:13 GMT
#655
On September 16 2011 08:11 magnaflow wrote:
I don't know why you zergs are crying. If anything you should be happy that the only thing being nerfed is NP.

FG gets a little nerf aswell actually :p

They should just revert FG back to the old stats imo
p0lyph0ny
Profile Joined July 2011
United States217 Posts
September 15 2011 23:16 GMT
#656
the that means that infestors can still np the mothership?????

blizzzzarddddddd...........
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 23:17:44
September 15 2011 23:17 GMT
#657
On September 16 2011 08:06 rdj107 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 07:46 tehemperorer wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:43 rdj107 wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:39 tehemperorer wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:36 rdj107 wrote:
On September 16 2011 07:21 iamke55 wrote:
Looks like QQ wins again. At this point I really wish Idra and his legion of fanboys played Protoss instead. I have no doubt we would still have KA, NP wouldn't work vs massive, and roaches would have 3 range if that were the case.

Sorry but what? This is a stupid comment even when you're not shoehorning it in where it's completely irrelevant.

Also in what way is 7 range suddenly not a nerf? It's arguably worse than not effecting massive at all, how did the "QQ" win?

The 9 range NP negates a costly upgrade, that's not something that needs to be addressed?

Please don't argue against points I didn't make.

Your post indicates that 7 range is a nerf, and that QQ didn't win. In regards to the nerfed range, my post poses the problem that a 9 range NP (the way it is) currently negates a necessary and costly Protoss upgrade, which was intended to prompt you into rethinking your stance.

See that's the problem with starting unrelated arguments, you run the risk of starting them with people who already agree with you. I do happen to think np taking very expensive units is an issue: + Show Spoiler +
On September 10 2011 01:16 rdj107 wrote:
Ignoring the impulse rage at this, it does make sense. The ability to effectively take high cost units and make them your own mid battle is game breaking no matter how effective it is. My concern is that while yes, p and t can once again make those units without the crippling fear of having it flipped against them, zerg still doesn't have a truly effective way of taking down a high tier army with vastly out of proportion resource costs.

Specifically I'm talking about carriers/motherships and battlecruisers (bear with me). The massive ground units are an issue on their own, but their are units that work against them so I'll leave them out of this post.

Currently zerg has a total of 5 units that can hit air; spores, queens, mutas, hydras, and corrupters. Spores and queens have obvious practicality issues so I'll ignore those:

Mutas are a harass unit and a good one, but do not trade evenly with any unit that can hit them except stalkers/voids (?); this includes vikings and phoenixes, which honestly aren't that hard to get out along the techpaths of the high tier units mentioned. Due to this in a standard mix mutas are not a solution, as to have mutas be effective you need to invest in a lot of them which is going to cripple your ground army strength; this would only get worse if you tried infestor/muta/x due to high gas and (depending on x) supply cost.

Hydras are the most viable solution to air heavy late game comps, but results have already shown that hydra heavy mixes are fragile at best and hard countered at worse. And it does need to be a heavy mix to guarantee that the hydras do anything at all; a light smattering of them honestly isn't going to do anything unless the air units specifically don't focus them.

Finally corrupters...suck, which given that they are supposed to be what takes down the high tech air units is an issue. Very literally they suck huge amounts of supply for what they do, and are brought down by pretty much everything they aren't specifically supposed to counter. Voidrays, vikings, any air to ground, and indirectly even phoenixes work fine for just soaking shots while they slowly whittle down the corrupters trying to hunt down carriers that can retreat to extreme distances while still having interceptors fight. Also keep in mind that against battlecruisers, there's the danger of yamato instantly tipping the scales on corrupters trading cost effectively if the bc numbers are not constantly kept in line.

Beyond unit specific issues, they all have the common weakness of needing to be in very large numbers in order to have any sort of effect. When people bring up having a proper unit composition that just isn't the way zerg works. Its strength is pumping out massed pure unit armies for the situation and when you keep units in reserve to develop a proper composition this strength falters or outright disappears. For how ineffective all of these units are making them in advance isn't feasible.

Tl;dr: Neural parasite on certain units was gamebreaking, but without the threat of it against high tier air tech there will be little reason not to make them late game, bringing the issues zergs have dealing with air units into play harder than ever.



Your post states that 9 range is an issue and that QQ won, when this thread is about the range nerf that is going to go live. That makes no sense, especially when you try to decide what my stance on something is without me stating it. So again, please do not put words in my mouth to attempt to start an argument. There's plenty of other people here for you to argue with I'm sure.

1st, relax. 2nd, I was merely commenting on the 7 range being a nerf, it's clear that if range is nerfed to 7 then QQ didn't win, but I never mentioned that OMG YOURE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH STOP ARGUE WITH SOMEONE ELSE :p
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
ApBuLLet
Profile Joined September 2010
United States604 Posts
September 15 2011 23:19 GMT
#658
On September 16 2011 08:16 p0lyph0ny wrote:
the that means that infestors can still np the mothership?????

blizzzzarddddddd...........


I know getting your mothership NP'ed really sucks, but the mothership acceleration change and the NP range nerf should help that a lot. Just target down the Infestor that has control over it, that should be fairly easy to do with stalkers, void rays, or colossi. Especially with thermal lance or blink.

So yes, it is still possible, but it is much harder now.
Absentia
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom973 Posts
September 15 2011 23:19 GMT
#659
Don't really think blizzard have given this change much thought since not so long ago they thought they were fixing NP by removing its ability to target massive units.
-2 range seems kinda harsh. It my mind it seems to be ridiculously easy to keep Colossi out of 7 range considering there's 6 range stalkers supporting them as well as their own range advantage.
However, I am thinking of a a choke engagement... in an open engagement it's much easier to get infestors in close range. Consideirng that, the change doesn't seem too harsh.

The change doesn't really deal with the problem of "mass" infestor which seems to be most people's problem with the unit. For example massive amounts of fungals, suiciding a couple of infestors to get off a NP and infested terran spam are still going to be possible with the changes they've made.
I like the idea someone made a few pages back of a slight cost increase, maybe to 100/200 (would 250 be too much?) and/or maybe a slight less harsh nerf to NP - perhaps a change to 8 range or an energy cost increase.
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
September 15 2011 23:21 GMT
#660
On September 16 2011 08:19 ApBuLLet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 08:16 p0lyph0ny wrote:
the that means that infestors can still np the mothership?????

blizzzzarddddddd...........


I know getting your mothership NP'ed really sucks, but the mothership acceleration change and the NP range nerf should help that a lot. Just target down the Infestor that has control over it, that should be fairly easy to do with stalkers, void rays, or colossi. Especially with thermal lance or blink.

So yes, it is still possible, but it is much harder now.


Gotta be able to see it first!
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