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On September 16 2011 05:56 R3N wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:50 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:47 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:44 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:43 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:37 Cloud9157 wrote:
Zergs are seriously hilarious.
Can I get a unit that can steal your massives, snare everything you have, and then have a billion little devils blocking you from getting to it? Protoss are seriously hilarious. Can I get a unit that can storm-rape your entire army, 1-shott all your casters, and then morph into a-moving rapeArchons blocking you from winning the game? But wait... My AoE spell actually requires research+resources... And my Archon requires 12 seconds to form, and 100/300 in resources... My NP requires research+ resources...And when I'm out of energy I can't form another unit and thus put my thumbs in my mouth and try to look useful. But you can take bases more freely than me and as a result, get so many resources... Plus you don't spend gas on anything other than research/buildings (assuming ling/Infestor). Are we done yet? Wtf? I don't understand, are you insinuating infestors are cheaper than HT?! I do agree infestors is a SLIGHTLY better unit but their still in the same caliber (both way below ghosts LOL) and take roughly the same amount of risk/reward (infestors more risk - believe it or not - but also more reward). I guess HT require more tech (focused). But still take more bases? I'm zerg, that's what I'm supposed to do as a result of my armies (maxed) fail to even take the shields off your deathball. You can't take resources in the equation without considering all factors.
Uh, that's not what he said? He said that you have more resources which makes it easier to get more infestors. They're not cheaper but if you're on three bases worth of gas to my two bases worth of gas you can get more gas units than I can.
And man, it is becoming annoying hearing all the whining about deathballs still. There have been so many high level games of zergs destroying "deathballs" easily, of zerg beating protoss while on equal bases, etc. Watch replays, compare positioning, tech, upgrades, and army value, and you'll understand why you lost the game opposed to "DEATHBALL IS STRONG".
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One last wish. Just let mothership immune from the NP. It's just bullshit to see the most expensive/highest tech/ultimate unit in the game being so silly when it get NPed
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Meh, I'm not really sure how to feel about this. this'll really put a dent into ZvP infestor usage like discussed on SoTG I think, since it'll be sheer impossible to NP collossi now. Bit weird that they didn't have this on the PTR as well, but one really can't say how this'll affect the metagame yet.
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On September 16 2011 06:02 tuho12345 wrote:
One last wish. Just let mothership immune from the NP. It's just bullshit to see the most expensive/highest tech/ultimate unit in the game being so silly when it get NPed
Blizzard gave up on making the mothership a "real" unit back in alpha/beta. They tried tons of things with it back then. They've said they consider it a casual unit now.
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What the fuck. They just told us it would be nerfed to oblivion, then nerf it a little bit less, and everyone is happy ?
Its back to the fun times of Corruptor autolosses.
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I find all this all quite funny as i go infestor ling/bane against toss, i never in any games get NP and i usually win (low masters). To see so many protoss players hating on NP makes me laugh as the ability as a whole is completely useless already and a waste of money to research it when it only makes your infestors extreamly vulnerable while they are using it, i have never seen a good protoss player let a collosus be kept neural parasited for more then 1-2 seconds.
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On September 16 2011 06:02 Spuick wrote:
Meh, I'm not really sure how to feel about this. this'll really put a dent into ZvP infestor usage like discussed on SoTG I think, since it'll be sheer impossible to NP collossi now. Bit weird that they didn't have this on the PTR as well, but one really can't say how this'll affect the metagame yet.
It won't change the meta game at all. Which is why I'm disappointed. I wanted to see big Thor armies become viable.
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I haven't really posted alot on these forums, but alas.
If they nerf NP, they may as well nerf that ridiculous unit called the colossus, it simply has no strategic weaknesses aside from having to build AA to defend it.
It has a ton of health, does a ton of damage, has great mobility due to cliffwalking, is usually safe because of its range, and requires little APM. Getting a magic number of 3-4 colossus isnt hard at all. As far as counters go, Neuralling a colossus is op because all of a sudden a protoss army lacks range to snipe the infestor, lacks the DPS, and you're indeed stuck with a useless corearmy of stalkers and maybe a few sentries.
I'm only plat, but i see this as a fundamental flaw in the race/game.
While erg and terran can play a multitude of styles which your opponent must react to accordingly till one of them slowly loses footing, a protoss simply disregards everything and does nothing less than an all-in to secure a third base. Unless the protoss manages to destroy the third of the opponent by the means of a 2-base timing, the game is pretty much over, because protoss is always stuck with a lumbering slowass army.
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On September 16 2011 05:56 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:55 happyness wrote:On September 16 2011 05:54 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 05:51 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:50 BBWsuperstar wrote:
I'm saying that 10 infested terrans per infestor for a mineral line is a little insane. I'd love to drop a medivac (and some) of units instantly and just rape mineral lines.
I'd personally like infestors to be slower. More like HTs. They are super strong and should require some extra micro to get them into the correct positions.
They are super easy to mass anyway, just go build another 20. I'd just prefer HTs to be faster...annoying as hell really and I can't think of any reason for their slow speed compared to infestors and ghosts. But yeah, I'm sure almost every P and Z would've preferred a ghost nerf to neural parasite nerf, as annoying as the spell was to deal with. They have a bus for rapid transport :D WP will be so good and like doubles the templar's speed. Meh protoss is just going to go mass colossus anyways  Mass collo sucked donkey balls since forever. It's slow, impossible to replace, and vulnerable to muta switches. Collo usage will remain low.
Correct, by the time Protoss can get to a mass of Collossi. Zerg can afford composition switches and a Protoss simply cannot replace such a large investment in time. Massing Colloussus will remain a masters and below tactic.
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On September 16 2011 06:00 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 03:44 Darkdeath3 wrote:
Well at least they can np massive units. Change should still help out p though with the decreased range.
Hrm.. there not uploading to ptr maybe that means patch soon? blizz's pattern seems to be this, they do some testing, make a couple c hanges, then just release the patch without actaully testing it publicly very odd method but w/e
Blizz: "Here try this out..."
Sc2: "ew.... WTF?"
Blizz: "Oh nvm.... we fixed it. Yeah... this should do it. "
Sc2: "Wait what? we don't get to test it??"
Blizz: "Nono you don't understand. By having you test out something unrelated, we realized how to fix the original problem. It's okay. Thanks btw!"
-_-???
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On September 16 2011 05:52 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:39 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 05:36 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:32 happyness wrote:On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed. Wait....... Feedback is smartcast!?!!?! You can click on the minimap to cast it against the closest unit with energy, what does that have to do with anything? A good player will still manually target infestors to get ones with full energy and it makes little difference anyway whether you click the minimap or click the infestor. Helps with trying to select ghosts in an army when they're bunched up with a bunch of other infantry and almost impossible to click. I'm pretty sure that isn't true, you can't just click wherever on the minimap, you actually have to click on the specific little point on the minimap that is a unit with energy for it to do anything just like using Injection on Hatcheries. The reason Protoss don't do minimap feedback is because it takes too long to specifically click on the tiny little dots and you can't even tell which ones are the casters. Ya I was going to say... if you dont click on a specific unit with energy you get the *ERRR* sound. I was thinking by smart cast it meant auto cast LOL.
Im pretty sure day9 said in a daily or cast once that if you select all your HT and spam click feedback on the minimap in the vicinity of the enemy army it will automaticly feedback basicly every caster in the enemy army, I have not confirmed this though.
he said it when a protoss mass-feedbacked a bunch of infestors and based on his voice he insinuated it wasn't hard to do.
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On September 16 2011 06:05 aWildRATTATA wrote:
I haven't really posted alot on these forums, but alas.
If they nerf NP, they may as well nerf that ridiculous unit called the colossus, it simply has no strategic weaknesses aside from having to build AA to defend it.
It has a ton of health, does a ton of damage, has great mobility due to cliffwalking, is usually safe because of its range, and requires little APM. Getting a magic number of 3-4 colossus isnt hard at all. As far as counters go, Neuralling a colossus is op because all of a sudden a protoss army lacks range to snipe the infestor, lacks the DPS, and you're indeed stuck with a useless corearmy of stalkers and maybe a few sentries.
I'm only plat, but i see this as a fundamental flaw in the race/game.
While erg and terran can play a multitude of styles which your opponent must react to accordingly till one of them slowly loses footing, a protoss simply disregards everything and does nothing less than an all-in to secure a third base. Unless the protoss manages to destroy the third of the opponent by the means of a 2-base timing, the game is pretty much over, because protoss is always stuck with a lumbering slowass army.
Then why are you commenting on balance and saying that colossus needs to be nerfed?
But yes, you are right that it's stupid how rigid protoss is, how hard it is to secure a third, and how worthless gateway is without t3 support.
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Good change. The infestor may feels a little unbalanced, but the massive change seemed a little unbalanced. As a toss player, it's still comforting to remember that infestors are made out of crepe paper and fall down in a light breeze.
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Yeah, well, ZvT would be completely broken without NP. What would you do against mass Thor? The only thing you could do is make an army purely made for basetrades, like muta/ling/roach or something.
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On September 16 2011 05:58 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:56 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:50 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:47 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:44 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:43 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:37 Cloud9157 wrote:
Zergs are seriously hilarious.
Can I get a unit that can steal your massives, snare everything you have, and then have a billion little devils blocking you from getting to it? Protoss are seriously hilarious. Can I get a unit that can storm-rape your entire army, 1-shott all your casters, and then morph into a-moving rapeArchons blocking you from winning the game? But wait... My AoE spell actually requires research+resources... And my Archon requires 12 seconds to form, and 100/300 in resources... My NP requires research+ resources...And when I'm out of energy I can't form another unit and thus put my thumbs in my mouth and try to look useful. But you can take bases more freely than me and as a result, get so many resources... Plus you don't spend gas on anything other than research/buildings (assuming ling/Infestor). Are we done yet? Wtf? I don't understand, are you insinuating infestors are cheaper than HT?! I do agree infestors is a SLIGHTLY better unit but their still in the same caliber (both way below ghosts LOL) and take roughly the same amount of risk/reward (infestors more risk - believe it or not - but also more reward). I guess HT require more tech (focused). But still take more bases? I'm zerg, that's what I'm supposed to do as a result of my armies (maxed) fail to even take the shields off your deathball. You can't take resources in the equation without considering all factors. My point is you get more Infestors than I get HTs, since I'm actually spending gas on more than 1 unit. HT = Infestor in gas cost. Any Stalker/Sentry is an additional 50/100 gas respectively. 2 base vs 3 base. 4 geysers for me, 6 for you. You get more gas than me.
This'll lead a completely pointless theory crafting but you started.
First of all what the heck do you mean with stalker/sentry is an additional gas?? You can't stay on lings forever, not when there are too many archons/HT's (but it works in midgame I admit) so you have to switch to roaches which are at best a soft-counter to archons in midgame, and become increasingly bad as upgrades and armies getting bigger.
So maybe you I can use more gas for infestors midgame but the game isn't balanced in just the midgame and my actual army is worse than yours. Remember your stalker/archon ball requires TWO or even three equivalent zerg armies so I end up using more gas than you (increasingly) anyways.
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On September 16 2011 06:03 Jacob666 wrote:
I find all this all quite funny as i go infestor ling/bane against toss, i never in any games get NP and i usually win (low masters). To see so many protoss players hating on NP makes me laugh as the ability as a whole is completely useless already and a waste of money to research it when it only makes your infestors extreamly vulnerable while they are using it, i have never seen a good protoss player let a collosus be kept neural parasited for more then 1-2 seconds.
Wow, thanks for your low masters insight into the highest echelons of PvZ play. On a serious note, NP is not useless, just because you do not use it in your lower level of play, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used.
All this range nerf has done is required Zergs to play with a bit more finesse (flanking, surrounding, army micro) which is how it should be. Even on creep.
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On September 16 2011 06:05 aWildRATTATA wrote:
I haven't really posted alot on these forums, but alas.
If they nerf NP, they may as well nerf that ridiculous unit called the colossus, it simply has no strategic weaknesses aside from having to build AA to defend it.
It has a ton of health, does a ton of damage, has great mobility due to cliffwalking, is usually safe because of its range, and requires little APM. Getting a magic number of 3-4 colossus isnt hard at all. As far as counters go, Neuralling a colossus is op because all of a sudden a protoss army lacks range to snipe the infestor, lacks the DPS, and you're indeed stuck with a useless corearmy of stalkers and maybe a few sentries.
The problem with colossi is, basically, that they force you into a deathball style of play. This is because colossi, obviously, require many support units. Aside from timing pushes, the deathball style is really, really bad. It gets picked apart by small, mobile armies doing multipronged attacks and drops - because these armies work fine in small numbers whereas a colossi based army does not.
I'm only plat, but i see this as a fundamental flaw in the race/game.
Well, you're wrong. If you were right professional players would take advantage of this unit, instead of making it only when absolutely necessary.
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Hm I don't know if this change was necessary
As a protoss player, in PvZ, I never really had trouble with neural parasites, it was fungal growths that I struggled with more
Colosus can range the infestors pretty easily as it is imo
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On September 16 2011 06:06 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:52 happyness wrote:On September 16 2011 05:39 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 05:36 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:32 happyness wrote:On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed. Wait....... Feedback is smartcast!?!!?! You can click on the minimap to cast it against the closest unit with energy, what does that have to do with anything? A good player will still manually target infestors to get ones with full energy and it makes little difference anyway whether you click the minimap or click the infestor. Helps with trying to select ghosts in an army when they're bunched up with a bunch of other infantry and almost impossible to click. I'm pretty sure that isn't true, you can't just click wherever on the minimap, you actually have to click on the specific little point on the minimap that is a unit with energy for it to do anything just like using Injection on Hatcheries. The reason Protoss don't do minimap feedback is because it takes too long to specifically click on the tiny little dots and you can't even tell which ones are the casters. Ya I was going to say... if you dont click on a specific unit with energy you get the *ERRR* sound. I was thinking by smart cast it meant auto cast LOL. Im pretty sure day9 said in a daily or cast once that if you select all your HT and spam click feedback on the minimap in the vicinity of the enemy army it will automaticly feedback basicly every caster in the enemy army, I have not confirmed this though. he said it when a protoss mass-feedbacked a bunch of infestors and based on his voice he insinuated it wasn't hard to do.
I've done this, it's really not too hard to do on its own, though you do have to be semi-accurate with it. The hard part, of course, is doing that while macroing and controlling your army. Try it in a unit tester, it's actually kind of fun to have caster vs caster wars with friends.
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EPT
