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On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed.
Hands down, without a single second of thought: Infestors.
Burrowed infestors into the mineral line and then unleashing 2 fungals / IT storms.
IT scaling with my ground upgrades? Hell yes.
Great drop/muta defense with fungal/IT.
FG on any unit comp - no more kiting (MM) so zealots will always be in the face of my enemy. Also fungal and then range 9 colossi wreaking havoc. Imagine those fungaled roachballs from ZvZ and then 4-5 colossi shooting at them :D
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On September 16 2011 05:43 FryktSkyene wrote:
NP 7
EMP 10
Anyone know snipe by chance?
Also 10. Liquipedia is awesome, use it:p
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On September 16 2011 05:42 SolidZeal wrote:
My god, the QQ that has appeared in this thread is mind boggling. The previous change was much worse and we didn't see people throwing temper tantrums like this. Thank the mods for banning tkRage, that was just ridiculous.
My initial reaction to the change is positive, but I am Protoss so take that with a grain of salt. I think it's reasonable to say that neural is not the problem with infestors. Still, I think it's fair to argue that infestors are too good currently against everything that toss and terran can throw at them. I see people claiming that this change makes the game more boring, but honestly seeing pure infestor ling armies is terribly boring.They are now a softer counter to powerhouse units which is what blizzard is trying to do. At least they are making ultralisks more viable and they are a decent late game answer to both the units that NP is now much weaker against (tank, collosus). Good change imo.
What? Ghost mech made infestors (and basically every other Zerg unit) laughable late game. Toss players never spread their units and complain about AoE damage.
Infestors will not soft counter Colossi, they'll die before they ever get into NP range. Ultras are also terrible. The only reason they ever see play is because they work relatively well with infestors and because, once again, no toss splits up their army which allows ultra+infestor to just melt their armies.
They are basically killing the only interesting mid-game Zerg unit that is actually viable. It's going to be back to the infinitely boring roach+hydra.
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On September 16 2011 05:43 FryktSkyene wrote:
NP 7
EMP 10
Anyone know snipe by chance?
10 range. EMP is really 12 range if you factor in its radius.
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On September 16 2011 05:42 BBWsuperstar wrote:
This is getting stupid. NP isn't the issue that people are complaining about here. FG and Infested rines are the problem. PLEASE for the love of god actually nerf the unit, but allow it to still be used.
-In the same note, pre-igniter needs to cost less or take less time. It's just too expensive for how simple of an ability, especially early game.
-HSM should be less energy. We still can only use one per raven, if we ever use it.
In the words of Lewis Black; "Iran, Iran, IRAQ!"
You've got to be kidding me...
BFH are cheap as balls and so damn good
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On September 16 2011 05:32 robih wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed. what a stupid question, i'd take infestors over templars even after the patch and its not even close
Really? Infestors can't feedback ghosts or turn into archons, you know. I thought the whole 'archon' thing was kind of important to your transitions. I don't think it's as clear cut as a lot of protoss are suggesting.
Did NP really need nerfing anyway? Of the spells of the infestor, I didn't think NP was the problem. This just makes it weaker against tanks and colossus. Is that what they were going for?
My only guess is that Blizzard is trying to mitigate the power of the infestor without taking out it's AA capability because Zerg has such terrible AA units, especially against protoss. Hopefully in the expansion we'll get better AA and then maybe the infestor can be rebalanced.
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I still don't understand why they had to nerf Neural Parasite.
They need to nerf Fungal Growth more than they have done, or/and may be nerf Infested Terrans.
Fungal Growth needs to last 5 second instead of 4, needs to cost 100 energy, and the bonus damage to armoured should be removed or lowered by 30-50%.
Infested Terrans should cost 30 or 35 energy instead of 25.
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On September 16 2011 05:43 R3N wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:37 Cloud9157 wrote:
Zergs are seriously hilarious.
Can I get a unit that can steal your massives, snare everything you have, and then have a billion little devils blocking you from getting to it? Protoss are seriously hilarious. Can I get a unit that can storm-rape your entire army, 1-shott all your casters, and then morph into a-moving rapeArchons blocking you from winning the game?
Not even close. Storm is so easy to dodge. Do you even use a buffer between them and your casters? Archons die soooo fast to roaches.
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Really good change imo. Now neural can still do what it was designed to do, but going infestors in ZvP won't be as free/easy a win as it was before, and going colossus won't be instant death, as thermal lance + good force fields is looking to be the best way to deal with infestors now. It still allows them to steal thors fine, but siege tanks can still do their job and be used to snipe the infestors.
Not working on massive was a silly change, but I agree with blizzard that a change was needed, and this seems like the perfect one. As a random player, I am quite happy with this patch, and I'm looking forward to playing it soon. Now hurry up and implement it blizz
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This is a far more reasonable nerf than the no NP on massive units. (:
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On September 16 2011 05:43 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:32 robih wrote:On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed. what a stupid question, i'd take infestors over templars even after the patch and its not even close Really? Infestors can't feedback ghosts or turn into archons, you know. I thought the whole 'archon' thing was kind of important to your transitions. I don't think it's as clear cut as a lot of protoss are suggesting. Did NP really need nerfing anyway? Of the spells of the infestor, I didn't think NP was the problem. This just makes it weaker against tanks and colossus. Is that what they were going for? My only guess is that Blizzard is trying to mitigate the power of the infestor without taking out it's AA capability because Zerg has such terrible AA units, especially against protoss. Hopefully in the expansion we'll get better AA and then maybe the infestor can be rebalanced.
Infestors can spam infested terrans for 25 energy that actually benefit from zerg upgrades, reveal cloaked, lock units into place, deal damage, can take over enemy units but that's being nerfed obviously, lock worker lines in place and kill them all whereas you can easily move out of storm, etc. Archons also require 2 templar, so that's twice as much gas as one infestor (the 100 extra minerals pretty much being irrelevant since zerg has more econ and excess minerals anyway). What do you think wins between an archon and two infestors worth of infested terrans?
Lol I can't imagine anyone not wanting infestors over high templar. Can you imagine this game if protoss had infestors?
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On September 16 2011 05:44 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:43 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:37 Cloud9157 wrote:
Zergs are seriously hilarious.
Can I get a unit that can steal your massives, snare everything you have, and then have a billion little devils blocking you from getting to it? Protoss are seriously hilarious. Can I get a unit that can storm-rape your entire army, 1-shott all your casters, and then morph into a-moving rapeArchons blocking you from winning the game? But wait... My AoE spell actually requires research+resources... And my Archon requires 12 seconds to form, and 100/300 in resources...
My NP requires research+ resources...And when I'm out of energy I can't form another unit and thus put my thumbs in my mouth and try to look useful.
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This is amazing. Finally I can win against a z going mass infestor = )
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So while zerg gets a double nerf on the infestor, terran's ghost gets nothing. Blizzard is acting a big strange. Ghost is as much an issue as the infestor.
I'm not really disagreeing with the nerf (nor am i agreeing), we'll see how things will go after the patch, but it'd be great if blizzard stoped looking away when it comes to Terran. Major changes are almost always for the other races, while Terran gets minor change everytime. Be more drastic with Terran, even if it means reverting back to the previous state, like with the other races. 5s is nothing.
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Edit: to the dude above me; HAVE YOU NOT SEEN THE HELLION BRO???
Dude, seriously, we can't 2 shot workers/marines anymore? That's a huge nerf for our early game. Seeing as blue-flame still costs 150/150 and takes 110 seconds, that's a huge gamble for early game. We have to do tons of damage to make it worth it, which is gonna be tough to do now.
I'm saying that 10 infested terrans per infestor for a mineral line is a little insane. I'd love to drop a medivac (and some) of units instantly and just rape mineral lines.
I'd personally like infestors to be slower. More like HTs. They are super strong and should require some extra micro to get them into the correct positions.
They are super easy to mass anyway, just go build another 20.
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On September 16 2011 05:47 R3N wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:44 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:43 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:37 Cloud9157 wrote:
Zergs are seriously hilarious.
Can I get a unit that can steal your massives, snare everything you have, and then have a billion little devils blocking you from getting to it? Protoss are seriously hilarious. Can I get a unit that can storm-rape your entire army, 1-shott all your casters, and then morph into a-moving rapeArchons blocking you from winning the game? But wait... My AoE spell actually requires research+resources... And my Archon requires 12 seconds to form, and 100/300 in resources... My NP requires research+ resources...And when I'm out of energy I can't form another unit and thus put my thumbs in my mouth and try to look useful.
But you can take bases more freely than me and as a result, get so many resources... Plus you don't spend gas on anything other than research/buildings (assuming ling/Infestor).
Are we done yet?
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On September 16 2011 05:47 Pajegetc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:43 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:37 Cloud9157 wrote:
Zergs are seriously hilarious.
Can I get a unit that can steal your massives, snare everything you have, and then have a billion little devils blocking you from getting to it? Protoss are seriously hilarious. Can I get a unit that can storm-rape your entire army, 1-shott all your casters, and then morph into a-moving rapeArchons blocking you from winning the game? Not even close. Storm is so easy to dodge. Do you even use a buffer between them and your casters? Archons die soooo fast to roaches.
Archons die to roaches in midgame, not lategame where roaches suck donkey balls. Not just because of their non-existent cost-efficiency and low range, but because of how the Archon AoE stack when you have allot of the.
Storm I agree with you to some extent; still zerg armies are large and splitting & blocking can only do so much when a single storm devastates everything you have.
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I think a NP Nerf to range 8 and Psionic units being immune would have been WAY better.
Colossi aren't really the problem right now, although NPing them is quite strong. But NPing Archons is quite ridiculous. It's way too easy and powerful. NPing Mothership is silly too. I wish Blizz would start messing up with PvZ and address the real problem (Terran).
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On September 16 2011 05:50 BBWsuperstar wrote:
I'm saying that 10 infested terrans per infestor for a mineral line is a little insane. I'd love to drop a medivac (and some) of units instantly and just rape mineral lines.
I'd personally like infestors to be slower. More like HTs. They are super strong and should require some extra micro to get them into the correct positions.
They are super easy to mass anyway, just go build another 20.
I'd just prefer HTs to be faster...annoying as hell really and I can't think of any reason for their slow speed compared to infestors and ghosts.
But yeah, I'm sure almost every P and Z would've preferred a ghost nerf to neural parasite nerf, as annoying as the spell was to deal with.
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Stop comparing infestors/ghosts/templar, their cast range, their spells,who wants which unit more, blah blah blah.
Each caster is designed to work with a particular race. saying "omg i'd totally take infestors over templar" is meaningless: i'd take thors over ultralisks too, but it makes no sense.
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EPT
