EPTShould "Deal Making" be illegal? - Page 60
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lim1017
Canada1278 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:15 DertoQq wrote: is the prize money that important for the players ? I would have though that the prestige of winning would worth more in some tournaments. Even with no prize money i don't see the players being "relief" in a final of a big tournament. But maybe i'm wrong. Money is what most often creates the prestige of a tournament to begin with so it has a substantial impact on how a player will feel about it. Other than that it will differ per tournament, per player. For example the relief of an enormous sum of the GSL will be much larger than that of a regular MLG. This is getting a bit offtopic though, but the regular MLG's have prizemoney that is not up to par with the prestige and scope of the tournament. This will influence a players mindset into caring more about the tournament less about the money. However it is not a good thing that the prizemoney is not up to par with the prestige of the tournament, so it is not a good example for anything. | ||
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MyNameWuzBoB
57 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: These sort of statements just show me you have no idea what it is like to be a professional at any sport/game. When you play these huge tournaments the sudden knowledge about the money being a lock will give almost anyone a huge feeling of relief and settlement. This will result in lackluster/happy/unfocused play. I do have an idea as I'm a professional poker player. Making any kind of a deal will result in relief. Relief doesn't mean you don't play to win. No one wants to be second. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:02 Kaitlin wrote: Does the tournament organizer have the right to set the prize pool distribution ? If so, then if a prize pool distribution is not acceptable to a player, why does that player agree to participate in the tournament since they don't agree to the rules of the tournament ? Honestly, I was expecting more from someone in your position. edit: For example, TL mods make it clear that we abide by the rules set by the TL administrators, and if we don't like it, tough shit, start our own website. Why does that same logic not apply to tournaments ? Because it's near impossible to enforce? If TL mods don't like what you say, they ban you, tough shit, go to a different site or make your own but if two players decide to split the prize money, there is no reasonable way to track and enforce that, particularly for smaller pools of money. So even if tournament organizers do make it unacceptable, it's very very difficult to actually enforce. In regards to the topic in general, I don't have a problem with splitting the cash prize for a tournament, spectators are ultimately there to see games and there are numerous things that can affect the quality of games, from a bad format to a player not having his eggs cooked right for breakfast. There's no way to regulate all of them, and this one thing is certainly not the easiest to regulate so there's no particular reason to latch on to it. Morally, I don't see anything wrong either as long as both players place value on winning regardless but that should be true in all scenarios, but in these cases a bad tournament format is even more detrimental. Take the Bratok and Stephano case for instance, both of them believed they could make it further in the tournament by avoiding Sen, their ultimate goal is to win, but they can only do that by losing, this is where a real problem comes into play. You can't really say whether a 50/50 split could actually have a detrimental effect on the quality of games. I've seen players perform better in practice games than in finals with money on the line, there are numerous things that affect the quality of games and this is certainly one but it's one that you can't really say for certain if it's a negative effect. The final issue is the spectator factor of knowing that "X player gets this much money for winning the match". The simple solution to that, keep the dealings private. Spectators don't need to know about a player's personal finances to enjoy a game. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:16 turdburgler wrote: agreeing to split the money doesnt affect the quality of the games though. they just know they can go out there, try their best and maybe throw in some special tactics without throwing away 5k it sounds bad but imo theres no way to police 2 friends doing whatever they want, so theres little point in bitching about it. and the fact that they both win money doesnt mean they wont try to beat each other As long as I dont see a terrible quality finals I dont care what people do with the money they won. | ||
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nanoscorp
United States1237 Posts
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18109 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: These sort of statements just show me you have no idea what it is like to be a professional at any sport/game. When you play these huge tournaments the sudden knowledge about the money being a lock will give almost anyone a huge feeling of relief and settlement. This will result in lackluster/happy/unfocused play. True, as long as we're talking about tournaments paying out a gigantic amount of money compared to the players' normal earnings: in other words, the money from tournaments is a big deal. However, if it were more like tennis, where the big money is in sponsor contracts,tv deals, etc. which you can ONLY get if you perform well (winning tournaments), things would be different. To a certain extent SC2 is already moving there. Players earn money on the side with their streams and masterclasses. These opportunities are only available because the community recognizes them as legitimately good players. Winning MLG is a surefire way to play yourself into the community spotlights... and please don't tell me the 5k spoils is the main prize of MLG! | ||
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benjammin
United States2728 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: These sort of statements just show me you have no idea what it is like to be a professional at any sport/game. When you play these huge tournaments the sudden knowledge about the money being a lock will give almost anyone a huge feeling of relief and settlement. This will result in lackluster/happy/unfocused play. i'm trying to think of places where this applies other than the anemic sc2 economy and can't really come up with much. i guess amateurs/pros in debt have this response in poker tournaments, but in any major sport the money is irrelevant and that does not impact the quality of the competition. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: These sort of statements just show me you have no idea what it is like to be a professional at any sport/game. When you play these huge tournaments the sudden knowledge about the money being a lock will give almost anyone a huge feeling of relief and settlement. This will result in lackluster/happy/unfocused play. I absolutely disagree with you here, Nazgul. This is different for different people and there are so many things that could negatively impact one's play. Someone may lock up at the thought of so much money and just freak out and do shitty cheeses instead of doing what they practiced. Someone may feel super relieved that they don't have to worry about winning or losing and just fuck around. This comes down to the player and it comes down to them in so many more ways than just this that singling it out isn't really sensible. | ||
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Sairon
47 Posts
With that kind of situation I think it's only fair that the players get a chance to at least guarantee themselves some $$$ by splitting. How would you feel to go to work and at the end of the day you take a lottery ticket to see if you get payed anything? This analogy is probably applicable in more than one sense seeing how even the best sometimes gets beaten by build order losses. | ||
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Full.tilt
United Kingdom1709 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:22 zeru wrote: You can't say it doesnt affect the quality of games when the only case of money splitting we know of it has affected the quality of games. Exactly, the argument people who don't care about or support prize splitting is generally that it relives some pressure from the players, that in itself effects the quality (good or bad) of the games. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:24 Full.tilt wrote: Exactly, the argument people who don't care about or support prize splitting is generally that it relives some pressure from the players, that in itself effects the quality (good or bad) of the games. Not getting your brand of cereal also affects the quality of games, not getting your full 8 hours of sleep also affects the quality of games, being unable to pass that large turd from all that delicious korean food also affects the quality of games. So the fuck what? Why focus on this one thing, it's not assuredly detrimental to the quality of games and there are examples of it not visibly affecting the quality of games as with the instance of ToD and Grubby(to my knowledge). Since we're only running on two examples right now, it certainly doesn't seem like a huge deal. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:22 zeru wrote: You can't say it doesnt affect the quality of games when the only case of money splitting we know of it has affected the quality of games. there are good games and bad games all the time, money split or not. you dont know that at all. as an example, nestea demolished losira but noone considered the idea that 2 team maters might of just planned a quick finals so they can go home and split the money. im not accusing them of anything im simply saying there are plenty of times where games are 1 sided and people (rightfully) dont accuse the match of being fixed. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:23 Mordiford wrote: I absolutely disagree with you here, Nazgul. This is different for different people and there are so many things that could negatively impact one's play. Someone may lock up at the thought of so much money and just freak out and do shitty cheeses instead of doing what they practiced. Someone may feel super relieved that they don't have to worry about winning or losing and just fuck around. This comes down to the player and it comes down to them in so many more ways than just this that singling it out isn't really sensible. I actually agree with you that there are many things that will affect someones play and that it is different for every player. However someone locking up under pressure to me is the beauty of competition. If nobody locked up under pressure we would not be able to admire those who play with nerves of steel. If that causes him to cheese then to me that is all within the nature of competition. Just because some factors affect people negatively already does not mean we should not investigate other factors. For example if tournaments made players play with sponsored gear which would lower the quality of all games I doubt you would be making this argument to justify it. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:35 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I actually agree with you that there are many things that will affect someones play and that it is different for every player. However someone locking up under pressure to me is the beauty of competition. If nobody locked up under pressure we would not be able to admire those who play with nerves of steel. If that causes him to cheese then to me that is all within the nature of competition. I simply pointed this out because you earlier touched on it as possibly detrimental to the quality of games, but if this is your stance then the actually "quality of games" is not really what you're concerned about(which makes sense since it's so subjective and can often go outside the actual game to things like the story behind the match) and more-so about the thrill of competition, which in this case involved a monetary reward? Am I correct so far? I guess where we differ is that I feel competition is essentially there regardless of the difference in prize, or whether or not there exists a monetary prize at all. | ||
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MyNameWuzBoB
57 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:35 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I actually agree with you that there are many things that will affect someones play and that it is different for every player. However someone locking up under pressure to me is the beauty of competition. If nobody locked up under pressure we would not be able to admire those who play with nerves of steel. If that causes him to cheese then to me that is all within the nature of competition. Just because some factors affect people negatively already does not mean we should not investigate other factors. For example if tournaments made players play with sponsored gear which would lower the quality of all games I doubt you would be making this argument to justify it. But there is still pressure even with 50/50 chop. You even said yourself currently the prize money that goes with winning an MLG event is not up to par with the prestige that goes along with winning. Who is going to work hard and train 8+ hours a day for a month and win all his matches in a tournament to just not try when they make the finals? Can't imagine anyone. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:39 Mordiford wrote: I simply pointed this out because you earlier touched on it as possibly detrimental to the quality of games, but if this is your stance then the actually "quality of games" is not really what you're concerned about(which makes sense since it's so subjective and can often go outside the actual game to things like the story behind the match) and more-so about the thrill of competition, which in this case involved a monetary reward? Am I correct so far? I guess where we differ is that I feel competition is essentially there regardless of the difference in prize, or whether or not there exists a monetary prize at all. Thrill/excitement and quality of games are two different factors which are both heavily influenced by a 50-50 split. On September 02 2011 20:42 MyNameWuzBoB wrote: But there is still pressure even with 50/50 chop. You even said yourself currently the prize money that goes with winning an MLG event is not up to par with the prestige that goes along with winning. Who is going to work hard and train 8+ hours a day for a month and win all his matches in a tournament to just not try when they make the finals? Can't imagine anyone. The basis of this topic is about TT1 in the finals of a tournament where he played less than optimal. The only case known to you and me already disproves your statement that it would not influence anyone. Secondly I do believe almost everyone would still try to win. However, you would be a fool if you thought the stakes felt exactly the same to players. I didn't say anything about not trying, I said that they would be more lackluster/happy/unfocused. It is a natural reaction to feeling good about your winnings. This isn't about the extremes of black or white, trying or not trying. It's about a certain influence it will have, which I undoubtly believe it does. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Thrill/excitement and quality of games are two different factors which are both heavily influenced by a 50-50 split. Yes, but since we've already touched on the limitless factors that can affect the quality of games, and the inability to really come to a conclusion to whether the effect on the quality of games is positive or negative, let's put that aside for now. The second thing is the thrill/excitement, which you've specifically touched on as separating those who buckle under pressure from those with nerves of steel. In that case of a game like Starcraft, where there is not that much money anyways, these monetary rewards can often make a massive difference. If we really wanted to push this further, why not come to an agreement in regards to eliminating player salaries to really push players into further pressure in regards to tournament winnings. That would really test their nerves and resolve. Ultimately, it's not feasible in regards to prize splitting just as it isn't in the above example, particularly in the case of eSports where there isn't that much money going around anyways and often times what is going around can mean the difference between a means to a profession and a simple hobby. On September 02 2011 20:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Thrill/excitement and quality of games are two different factors which are both heavily influenced by a 50-50 split. The basis of this topic is about TT1 in the finals of a tournament where he played less than optimal. The only case known to you and me already disproves your statement that it would not influence anyone. Secondly I do believe almost everyone would still try to win. However, you would be a fool if you thought the stakes felt exactly the same to players. I didn't say anything about not trying, I said that they would be more lackluster/happy/unfocused. It is a natural reaction to feeling good about your winnings. This isn't about the extremes of black or white, trying or not trying. It's about a certain influence it will have, which I undoubtedly believe it does. I do believe ToD gave an example of him and Grubby having a split in Warcraft III, to my knowledge it did not affect the quality of games, though I could be mistaken. | ||
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
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