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On September 02 2011 07:37 Kimzao wrote:
I don't think that deal making will make for boring games for the spectators. If anything, it should make the players more relaxed and give them the confidence to play some crowd pleasing styles as opposed to the same old established meta game that the audience has seen thousands of times before.
Who the fuck wants to watch shitty strategies that don't work. I think any reasonable and informed viewer would rather see strategic brilliance than cheap gimmicks.
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Either way both players will be trying their hardest to win the Finals for the glory and fame...
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United States5162 Posts
I'm really not sure on this. I don't see how it really affects the outcome of the game as any competitor I know goes all out regardless of whats on the line. But at the same time I understand how a deal like this seems improper due to the nature of competition. Something I'm sure of though, is that enforcing a rule against this would be impossible without extreme levels of privacy invasion.
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I think it should be illegal. It makes the tournament seem ridiculous and it makes the ESPORT look bad (ha, I said it!).
Imagine MVP and Nestea were in the GSL finals and they'd do worker rushes or 1base BC/Ultra builds, coz the result wouldn't matter (Yeah, they'd probably at least put on a show, but the tension would be gone and yes, the prestige of a GSL title would prevent dealings such as this, but just take it as a hyperbolic example)
To prove my point, didn't one player 1base Carrier rush in the finals in question?
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To be honest doing anything that diminishes the level of high play and competition in the game is wrong. Playing tournaments at a high level is 100% percent about the quality of entertainment for the fans and the audience. This should be disallowed. I don't see any real argument for it, live and high level tournaments are about the fans, not the players. Sounds harsh but this is what being a professional player in any capacity is about.
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i deal make all the time in local LAN tournaments that include cash..
my room mate and i are of almost equal skill, depending on the day of the week. do i want to create a competitive environment between myself and him? absolutely not. are we the top 2 players in that tournament? probably we are.
when we get to the finals and its me vs him, we just say, hey, lets just split the money and have a good time. nobody is out to get first place, so whoever wins our 6 pool vs 6 pool can take the pride as long as the profits are equally split.
what 1st place and 2nd place talk about, what they do with their money, and how they play the match out, is really none of your fucking business. ^_^ cheers.
edit: for anyone saying that it diminishes the competitive level, get over it, we worked hard enough to be #1 and #2. we don't need that extra inch to ruin friendships and prevent it from being fun for however i enjoy handling the situation.
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I was worried about adding a 3rd poll:
"Would you be happy with the option of a finals of a particular tournament the option to split winnings, before the match?"
Let's say it's publicly stated before the game, in witness of the Tournament hosts, or even offered to them via the rule set.
It comes down to the players integrity to give a fair & good game, which is quite possible, but is it the same? Take into consideration the TSL3 finals... would we be on the edge of our seats through a best of 7, all the way to the nail biting end? Or would be thinking "Oh well, doesn't matter, it's just a show match at best".
VERY dangerous precedent to set in my opinion, should be completely avoided.
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On September 02 2011 07:32 Gamegene wrote:
Where's the incentive to play better if it's the same either way? Plus it defeats the purpose of rewarding the winner, when the loser earns equal shares.
Yup. .
TT1 admitted he didn't take the finals seriously because of their deal and did "1 base carriers lol". Esports is driven by fans, like any other spectator sport. These entitled players wouldn't make ANY money if there weren't fans watching. We watch, buy tournament passes, etc, to watch players duke it out and play their best. Especially in a finals, the most important part of the tournament where we should see 2 players duking it out to see who is the best.
When they just make a deal to split the money and one player then just throws the game or does a joke strategy because it doesn't matter who wins, you are spiting in the face of the fans and the spirit of competition.
And it is technically match fixing because TT1 threw the game, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixing read it
Its probably impossible to make it "illegal" cause you can find ways to just give the guy money out of your pocket without the tournament even knowing, but at the least it should be frowned upon by the community.
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Wasnt this agreed to before the entire tourney, not just the finals?
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Coming from another competative game background (mtg), I think this is widely spread and not considered weird by pros. There is always volatility in any game, and SC2 is no exception. Add to that that prize pools tend to be very top heavy and pros will feel like they toss a coin (or a 55/45-coin or whatever) about $10-20k. That's a lot. Prize splitting, as I'm used to calling it, has so far as I known never been considered cheating or such. Since players want to decrease the volatility in their earnings, ther're basically "gonna do it anyways", so it might as well be legal. It doesn't give you an incentive to lose or play worse in a finals. Future sponsorships, fame, and so on will still be on the line. I think reducing the prize gap is a good thing, it brings for a more stable income from winnings for top pros, but as a spectator you will still get all the excitement of a $20k match.
All in all, I'm for it and it is not ruining esports. Progamers has not lost their passion ^^.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Do you think Nadal and Federer would do something like this? or any other professional sportsperson? If you want ESPORTS to be taken seriously, things like this must be stamped out. It might not technically be match-fixing, but it's still compromising the competitive spirit of the tournament & sport, which is very very bad.
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If this is actually happening, that's pretty stupid. I wouldn't split my winnings with anyone so the "pressure" was relieved, why the hell are you a professional gamer if you can't handle a finals match?
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how can you base an argument off this?
what a player does with his/her winnings is upto them.
If 2 players agree that if either of them win they'll half the winnings,then its fine, as long as it doesnt affect the games in anyway (ie match fixing but it shouldnt really,they both gotta fight to be in the finals together anyway)
i dont see how on earth they can make this illegal - what law would it break?
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This should definitely be illegal because splitting the pot (if you're playing for first place) can give you less motivation to win first =/
Ah didn't notice someone posted the exact same thing earlier ^^
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For those not in the know: TT1 and Fenix made a deal that if they got 1st and 2nd at some tournament, they would split the prize winnings. In the finals, TT1 went 1-base carriers and got rolled. Fenix later reneged on the deal and "stole" $2500 from TT1. (Cue some drama about TT1 not wanting to have anything to do with Fenix and Fenix being released from Fnatic because of this entire business.)
Another interesting scenario (though not the one that sparked this discussion) involved Sjow and MorroW a while back:
On September 02 2011 05:43 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 05:41 marttorn wrote:
Reminds me of the time Sjow and MorroW (preeeetty sure it was Sjow yeah) were in some finals and they decided to split winnings. If I remember a million people went crazy on TL and called them match fixers TT;;
just comes to mind I think it was more than that, one of them let the other win because of some super stupid qualification system that would benefit them both if one person one several qualifiers or something like that. EDIT: Yep: Show nested quote +So what happened? The event is a set of 18 “LAN” tournaments that will not be streamed. If you win 11 out of the 18, you get a very nice computer. As MorroW and SjoW are the only 2 pros competing, they plan to get to the finals every time. As they are equal in skill level, it is unlikely for one them to go 11 and 18. So they discussed making a pact starting that one will always forfeit; why? Because if they unlock all the prizes both of them can get a 1st place prize pool and come out winners.
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Didn't that happen in SSMB. We don't have SSMB at MLG anymore.
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I'm pretty sure MLG banned some people from the smash community for doing this during one of their finals. When prizes for matches are split it results in much lower level performances and worse matches on the whole because the players will try less or do stupid shit instead of playing to win. It's unfair to spectators and the leagues which organize your battlefield to not give it your all.
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On September 02 2011 07:41 x6Paramore wrote:
i deal make all the time in local LAN tournaments that include cash..
my room mate and i are of almost equal skill, depending on the day of the week. do i want to create a competitive environment between myself and him? absolutely not. are we the top 2 players in that tournament? probably we are.
when we get to the finals and its me vs him, we just say, hey, lets just split the money and have a good time. nobody is out to get first place, so whoever wins our 6 pool vs 6 pool can take the pride as long as the profits are equally split.
what 1st place and 2nd place talk about, what they do with their money, and how they play the match out, is really none of your fucking business. ^_^ cheers.
edit: for anyone saying that it diminishes the competitive level, get over it, we worked hard enough to be #1 and #2. we don't need that extra inch to ruin friendships and prevent it from being fun for however i enjoy handling the situation.
yea except that people don't give a fuck about nobodies playing in a local LAN tournament. this thread is about deal making at a top professional level
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Australia8532 Posts
On September 02 2011 07:41 x6Paramore wrote:
i deal make all the time in local LAN tournaments that include cash..
my room mate and i are of almost equal skill, depending on the day of the week. do i want to create a competitive environment between myself and him? absolutely not. are we the top 2 players in that tournament? probably we are.
when we get to the finals and its me vs him, we just say, hey, lets just split the money and have a good time. nobody is out to get first place, so whoever wins our 6 pool vs 6 pool can take the pride as long as the profits are equally split.
what 1st place and 2nd place talk about, what they do with their money, and how they play the match out, is really none of your fucking business. ^_^ cheers.
edit: for anyone saying that it diminishes the competitive level, get over it, we worked hard enough to be #1 and #2. we don't need that extra inch to ruin friendships and prevent it from being fun for however i enjoy handling the situation.
While that sounds just lovely for a local LAN tournament that has no implications for anyone - sure i couldn't care less. But when you realise that SC2 isn't just about you and your roommate, or how "hard" you may have worked to get to the finals, you'll see that it does matter.
The only reason you are getting paid to play a computer game is because of the thousands of fans the generous sponsors. If they knew you had decided to split the money and weren't going to play properly, i imagine the tournament organisers would be pretty mad as would the fans and the sponsors. The example in the OP lead to a 1 base carrier rush and your example included 6 pool vs 6 pool - you have effectively destroyed the finals for everyone watching. Can you imagine something like for Mvp vs CoCa at MLG?
Maybe you should think a little bit less about yourself and a little bit more about the community.
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On September 02 2011 07:39 ClydeFrog wrote:
this isn't poker....you cant split the prize when you don't feel like playing anymore.
you can split any amount of money you like in any fucking thing as long as both agrees to play their best
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EPT
