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On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state.
Like who ?
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On June 01 2014 02:26 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state. Like who ?
Well, this month
Bunny beat San
Dayshi beat San
Qxc beat Oz
Happy beat First
Happy beat Hurricane
Bbyong beat Parting
Miszu beat Patience
Krass beat Hasuobs
Heromarine beat Welmu
qxc beat Jim
Marinelord beat Tod
Morrow beat Babyknight
Happy beat Stardust
Bunny beat San (again)
Ein beat Top
Revenge beat HasuObs
Add:
uThermal beat Stork
nuclear beat Jim
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Bunny beat San : Cross server on EU
Dayshi beat San : It was a defwin
Qxc beat Oz : Ok
Happy beat First : Happy is better than First.
Happy beat Hurricane : Happy is better than Hurricane
Bbyong beat Parting : Why bbyong would be the challenger ? Lol.
Miszu beat Patience : Crossserver on EU.
Krass beat Hasuobs : I don't think it's an upset
Heromarine beat Welmu : I don't think it's an upset
qxc beat Jim : I don't think it's an upset
Marinelord beat Tod : It's not an upset
Downfall beat Tod : It's not an upset
Morrow beat Babyknight : It's not an upset
Happy beat Stardust : M'ok
Bunny beat San (again) : It was a defwin
Ein beat Top : No he didn't
Revenge beat HasuObs : I don't think this is an upset
So appart from
Qxc vs Oz that was NA-KR so not much lag, nothing upseting here.
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rofl...
Thanks for reminding me why I shouldn't be in this thread
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On June 01 2014 03:05 Nebuchad wrote:
rofl...
Thanks for reminding me why I shouldn't be in this thread
If you think that Bbyong beating Parting is an upset, yeah, you really should avoid coming in here.
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On June 01 2014 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 02:26 Faust852 wrote:On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state. Like who ? Well, this month Bunny beat San Dayshi beat San Qxc beat Oz Happy beat First Happy beat Hurricane Bbyong beat Parting Miszu beat Patience Krass beat Hasuobs Heromarine beat Welmu qxc beat Jim Marinelord beat Tod Downfall beat Tod Morrow beat Babyknight Happy beat Stardust Bunny beat San (again) Ein beat Top Revenge beat HasuObs
Why is every foreign T vs foreign P is considered an upset? Foreign T is not allowed to win ? lmfao
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I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future.
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On June 01 2014 03:43 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 02:26 Faust852 wrote:On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state. Like who ? Well, this month Bunny beat San Dayshi beat San Qxc beat Oz Happy beat First Happy beat Hurricane Bbyong beat Parting Miszu beat Patience Krass beat Hasuobs Heromarine beat Welmu qxc beat Jim Marinelord beat Tod Downfall beat Tod Morrow beat Babyknight Happy beat Stardust Bunny beat San (again) Ein beat Top Revenge beat HasuObs Why is every foreign T vs foreign P is considered an upset? Foreign T is not allowed to win ? lmfao
Downfall and Morrow are much better players than Tod and Babyknight, right?
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On June 01 2014 03:43 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 02:26 Faust852 wrote:On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state. Like who ? Well, this month Bunny beat San Dayshi beat San Qxc beat Oz Happy beat First Happy beat Hurricane Bbyong beat Parting Miszu beat Patience Krass beat Hasuobs Heromarine beat Welmu qxc beat Jim Marinelord beat Tod Downfall beat Tod Morrow beat Babyknight Happy beat Stardust Bunny beat San (again) Ein beat Top Revenge beat HasuObs Why is every foreign T vs foreign P is considered an upset? Foreign T is not allowed to win ? lmfao
Bunny also has sick TvP. Unless he's against the very best korean protosses, he has a very good chance at beating any protoss. Even San.
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On June 01 2014 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 03:43 imrusty269 wrote:On June 01 2014 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 02:26 Faust852 wrote:On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state. Like who ? Well, this month Bunny beat San Dayshi beat San Qxc beat Oz Happy beat First Happy beat Hurricane Bbyong beat Parting Miszu beat Patience Krass beat Hasuobs Heromarine beat Welmu qxc beat Jim Marinelord beat Tod Downfall beat Tod Morrow beat Babyknight Happy beat Stardust Bunny beat San (again) Ein beat Top Revenge beat HasuObs Why is every foreign T vs foreign P is considered an upset? Foreign T is not allowed to win ? lmfao Downfall and Morrow are much better players than Tod and Babyknight, right?
He isn't disputing that. Foreign T vs foreign P.
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On June 01 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future.
Did you really expect to have a reasonable discussion in this thread?  If Avilo were to beat Zest they would still come up with some excuse.
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On June 01 2014 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 03:43 imrusty269 wrote:On June 01 2014 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 02:26 Faust852 wrote:On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state. Like who ? Well, this month Bunny beat San Dayshi beat San Qxc beat Oz Happy beat First Happy beat Hurricane Bbyong beat Parting Miszu beat Patience Krass beat Hasuobs Heromarine beat Welmu qxc beat Jim Marinelord beat Tod Downfall beat Tod Morrow beat Babyknight Happy beat Stardust Bunny beat San (again) Ein beat Top Revenge beat HasuObs Why is every foreign T vs foreign P is considered an upset? Foreign T is not allowed to win ? lmfao Downfall and Morrow are much better players than Tod and Babyknight, right?
Actually if you asked to DwF himself, you would know that ToD almost never beat him. Actually Tod never beats terran. That's in no way an upset since Tod is really terrible in PvT.
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On June 01 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future.
Yeah sure. Break out the Sad Zealot champagne. Fact is that we have to let the new changes play out. You want to call it 'balanced' for your own purposes. Let's not be hasty in either direction yeah?
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On June 01 2014 05:07 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future. Yeah sure. Break out the Sad Zealot champagne. Fact is that we have to let the new changes play out. You want to call it 'balanced' for your own purposes. Let's not be hasty in either direction yeah?
I get that you have problems with me but it's getting kind of pathetic there. The narrative I'm talking against is "these stats happen because the very best terrans play good or great (but not the best) protosses, so that's why terran looks ok". I'm answering: "Actually you're wrong, we have plenty of games from people who are not the very best terrans and do decently vs protoss, so it suggests balance".
The narrative used to explain the aligulac statistics isn't supported by reality. That's all I'm saying. That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that. I just mean what I mean: this narrative is wrong.
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On June 01 2014 05:17 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 05:07 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future. Yeah sure. Break out the Sad Zealot champagne. Fact is that we have to let the new changes play out. You want to call it 'balanced' for your own purposes. Let's not be hasty in either direction yeah? I get that you have problems with me but it's getting kind of pathetic there. The narrative I'm talking against is "these stats happen because the very best terrans play good or great (but not the best) protosses, so that's why terran looks ok". I'm answering: "Actually you're wrong, we have plenty of games from people who are not the very best terrans and do decently vs protoss, so it suggests balance". The narrative used to explain the aligulac statistics isn't supported by reality. That's all I'm saying. That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that. I just mean what I mean: this narrative is wrong.
I have a problem with people being hasty in either direction.
My problem with Protoss is their openings. Jim 4gated Jaedong - like really? How many openings can Zergs and Terrans throw at Protoss that catches them off guard like that? If that means making Protoss mid-game stronger to compensate, I'm all for it.
When I see a Terran beat a Protoss, it's usually because they took good engagements, dropped, harassed and outplayed their opponents. And I enjoy it when Protoss gut open Zergs with warp prism harass and good engagements etc. as well. You know, outplaying their opponent.
And using unusual openers is good to mix it up, but unusual opener is standard for Protoss. Proxy oracle should be a risk and a gamble since it can straight up kill Terrans, not a safe opener.
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On June 01 2014 05:28 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 05:17 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 05:07 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future. Yeah sure. Break out the Sad Zealot champagne. Fact is that we have to let the new changes play out. You want to call it 'balanced' for your own purposes. Let's not be hasty in either direction yeah? I get that you have problems with me but it's getting kind of pathetic there. The narrative I'm talking against is "these stats happen because the very best terrans play good or great (but not the best) protosses, so that's why terran looks ok". I'm answering: "Actually you're wrong, we have plenty of games from people who are not the very best terrans and do decently vs protoss, so it suggests balance". The narrative used to explain the aligulac statistics isn't supported by reality. That's all I'm saying. That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that. I just mean what I mean: this narrative is wrong. I have a problem with people being hasty in either direction. My problem with Protoss is their openings. Jim 4gated Jaedong - like really? How many openings can Zergs and Terrans throw at Protoss that catches them off guard like that? If that means making Protoss mid-game stronger to compensate, I'm all for it. When I see a Terran beat a Protoss, it's usually because they took good engagements, dropped, harassed and outplayed their opponents. And I enjoy it when Protoss gut open Zergs with warp prism harass and good engagements etc. as well. You know, outplaying their opponent. And using unusual openers is good to mix it up, but unusual opener is standard for Protoss. Proxy oracle should be a risk and a gamble since it can straight up kill Terrans, not a safe opener.
...and every single part of that is completely irrelevant to what I'm arguing against.
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On June 01 2014 05:30 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 05:28 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 05:17 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 05:07 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future. Yeah sure. Break out the Sad Zealot champagne. Fact is that we have to let the new changes play out. You want to call it 'balanced' for your own purposes. Let's not be hasty in either direction yeah? I get that you have problems with me but it's getting kind of pathetic there. The narrative I'm talking against is "these stats happen because the very best terrans play good or great (but not the best) protosses, so that's why terran looks ok". I'm answering: "Actually you're wrong, we have plenty of games from people who are not the very best terrans and do decently vs protoss, so it suggests balance". The narrative used to explain the aligulac statistics isn't supported by reality. That's all I'm saying. That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that. I just mean what I mean: this narrative is wrong. I have a problem with people being hasty in either direction. My problem with Protoss is their openings. Jim 4gated Jaedong - like really? How many openings can Zergs and Terrans throw at Protoss that catches them off guard like that? If that means making Protoss mid-game stronger to compensate, I'm all for it. When I see a Terran beat a Protoss, it's usually because they took good engagements, dropped, harassed and outplayed their opponents. And I enjoy it when Protoss gut open Zergs with warp prism harass and good engagements etc. as well. You know, outplaying their opponent. And using unusual openers is good to mix it up, but unusual opener is standard for Protoss. Proxy oracle should be a risk and a gamble since it can straight up kill Terrans, not a safe opener. ...and every single part of that is completely irrelevant to what I'm arguing against.
On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state.
That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that.
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On June 01 2014 02:50 Faust852 wrote:
Bunny beat San : Cross server on EU
Dayshi beat San : It was a defwin
Qxc beat Oz : Ok
Happy beat First : Happy is better than First.
Happy beat Hurricane : Happy is better than Hurricane
Bbyong beat Parting : Why bbyong would be the challenger ? Lol.
Miszu beat Patience : Crossserver on EU.
Krass beat Hasuobs : I don't think it's an upset
Heromarine beat Welmu : I don't think it's an upset
qxc beat Jim : I don't think it's an upset
Marinelord beat Tod : It's not an upset
Downfall beat Tod : It's not an upset
Morrow beat Babyknight : It's not an upset
Happy beat Stardust : M'ok
Bunny beat San (again) : It was a defwin
Ein beat Top : No he didn't
Revenge beat HasuObs : I don't think this is an upset
So appart from
Qxc vs Oz that was NA-KR so not much lag, nothing upseting here.
Qxc was eliminated by Oz from WCS NA. It did not take long to "fix" the upset, 2 hours or so?
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On June 01 2014 05:32 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 05:30 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 05:28 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 05:17 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 05:07 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future. Yeah sure. Break out the Sad Zealot champagne. Fact is that we have to let the new changes play out. You want to call it 'balanced' for your own purposes. Let's not be hasty in either direction yeah? I get that you have problems with me but it's getting kind of pathetic there. The narrative I'm talking against is "these stats happen because the very best terrans play good or great (but not the best) protosses, so that's why terran looks ok". I'm answering: "Actually you're wrong, we have plenty of games from people who are not the very best terrans and do decently vs protoss, so it suggests balance". The narrative used to explain the aligulac statistics isn't supported by reality. That's all I'm saying. That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that. I just mean what I mean: this narrative is wrong. I have a problem with people being hasty in either direction. My problem with Protoss is their openings. Jim 4gated Jaedong - like really? How many openings can Zergs and Terrans throw at Protoss that catches them off guard like that? If that means making Protoss mid-game stronger to compensate, I'm all for it. When I see a Terran beat a Protoss, it's usually because they took good engagements, dropped, harassed and outplayed their opponents. And I enjoy it when Protoss gut open Zergs with warp prism harass and good engagements etc. as well. You know, outplaying their opponent. And using unusual openers is good to mix it up, but unusual opener is standard for Protoss. Proxy oracle should be a risk and a gamble since it can straight up kill Terrans, not a safe opener. ...and every single part of that is completely irrelevant to what I'm arguing against. Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state. Show nested quote +That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that.
So? I stand by my statements.
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On June 01 2014 05:33 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 05:32 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 05:30 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 05:28 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 05:17 Nebuchad wrote:On June 01 2014 05:07 plogamer wrote:On June 01 2014 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I apologize for letting facts come in the way of the narrative, I shall never do that again in the future. Yeah sure. Break out the Sad Zealot champagne. Fact is that we have to let the new changes play out. You want to call it 'balanced' for your own purposes. Let's not be hasty in either direction yeah? I get that you have problems with me but it's getting kind of pathetic there. The narrative I'm talking against is "these stats happen because the very best terrans play good or great (but not the best) protosses, so that's why terran looks ok". I'm answering: "Actually you're wrong, we have plenty of games from people who are not the very best terrans and do decently vs protoss, so it suggests balance". The narrative used to explain the aligulac statistics isn't supported by reality. That's all I'm saying. That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that. I just mean what I mean: this narrative is wrong. I have a problem with people being hasty in either direction. My problem with Protoss is their openings. Jim 4gated Jaedong - like really? How many openings can Zergs and Terrans throw at Protoss that catches them off guard like that? If that means making Protoss mid-game stronger to compensate, I'm all for it. When I see a Terran beat a Protoss, it's usually because they took good engagements, dropped, harassed and outplayed their opponents. And I enjoy it when Protoss gut open Zergs with warp prism harass and good engagements etc. as well. You know, outplaying their opponent. And using unusual openers is good to mix it up, but unusual opener is standard for Protoss. Proxy oracle should be a risk and a gamble since it can straight up kill Terrans, not a safe opener. ...and every single part of that is completely irrelevant to what I'm arguing against. On June 01 2014 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On May 31 2014 21:09 Hider wrote:On May 29 2014 03:03 DinoMight wrote:
So from these numbers looks like Z>T>P right now eh? No. Z > P Z > T TvP ???? This is due to how significantly terran is underpresented --> superior terran players are still being matched up against inferior toss's/zergs. This means that terran is supposed to have win/rates above 50% against Protoss/Zerg if the game is balanced. But terrans have also recently upset protosses that you would expect to be favourites over them, so that suggests a rather balanced state. That has nothing to do with whether PvT will be balanced or not in two months, no one can say that. So? I stand by my statements.
Are you serious? You think hiding behind weasle words like "suggests balance" actually works on anyone with a working brain?
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EPT
