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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:02 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:59 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
MC has not kept up with the meta game, that is why is he is in Code A. I just looked at the winrate for the last GSL, there was nothing you could point out and call imbalanced from looking at it. Generally if its bio vs standard protoss builds the better player wins, and the ghost vs HT is pretty balanced at the highest level. I don't know why people expect perfect HT control and the best way to play everything after just 1 year of the game being out.
Terrans made ghosts when HT had KA, but warping in storms was insanely not working as intended as EMP is intended to be needed to weaken the protoss army and have a way to challenge timings protoss have in upgrade advantages. Terran have no good Tier 3 units against protoss and need to spam barracks and tier 2 units to win, this is why the match up is balanced.
Honestly I am starting to agree with IdrA more and more that Protoss are just dumb. They do crazy all in strats that really seem half baked (Trickster vs taeja) and players like MC getting raped because he can't scout.
I just don't see much change in the protoss in the GSL and terran and zerg just seem to have them figured out in the few timings they can use early. I personally would like to see protoss use their chrono more efficiently instead of having it pool up. Instead of making additional 2 gateways, if they spent their chrono all game on the gateways they would get more units out for the gateways they have.
The thread does seem pretty bad, but mostly because people don't want to actually hear anything other than "omg I know, isn't it imba!"
I play terran and I know blue flame was imba, i know the 1/1/1 is imba, and I know immortals are terrible. I also know that if a protoss lands 2 storms it completely changes the game, that is why HT are easier to hit with EMP. Terran can reduce their shields but not actually kill with EMP, and the reason a lot of protoss are losing HT is because they are trying to run to save the storm instead of just using feedback. It takes them 2 clicks to snipe a HT, and 1 click to feedback, come on now. Snipe and emp outrange feedback. If both players control the best that is theoretically possible, the terran wins every time 100% simply by virtue of having more range on his abilities. Oh, and if a protoss trades all of his high templar energy to prevent all of the EMP's (somehow, miraculously pulls that off), it's still a failure because he doesn't have storms anymore, and the terran bio ball rolls the protoss army. Toss has to get the storms down, giving up storms for feedback is advantageous for terran, 'cause bio units > gateway units. At least somebody in this thread is not blind to the truth of the matter... Anyone who says that Ghost are not the best caster in the game is full of themselves...
When it comes down to balance questions, it's often a question of potential skill-cap. If one assumes players play the absolute best, what will happen. When it comes to protoss army vs. terran bio army and both control the best they can, ghosts will always beat the high templar and get the emps on the army off, by virtue of outranging everything else. Vikings will beat the colossi, and terran bio will micro their hearts out because of no forcefields, due to those EMPs. Terran simply has a higher skill cap than Protoss. EMP is simply too good as is in PvT, and ghosts are pretty good against zealots too, which are a main staple of Protoss's army in the matchup. In other words, you can't go wrong in TvP lategame by making lots of ghosts. The only way toss wins is if he does an absurdly good job spreading his very slow high templar, has more high templar than terran has ghosts, and wins the feedback vs. snipe/emp war, which doesn't happen if terran is near equal skill. It wouldn't be so bad if gateway units were a bit stronger and could hold their own against a bio-ball, but they just have a terrible design: stalkers are big and clumsy so they all have a much harder time attacking (and their DPS sucks something awful), zealots are melee (inherent disadvantage right there), and sentries tickle.
Protoss have no real choice except to fall back on colossus tech again, but terrans have long since figured that out.
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On September 09 2011 05:10 Percutio wrote:MMM should die to big quantities of high upgrade zealot/archon off a strong economy and lots of gates (Still easier said than done haha). There would also still be Colossi which wreck bio in the face even if Vikings are super good against them.
Thing is, getting archons out is basically having HT tech.
Besides that - don't quote me on this - but I've found chargelot AI to be kind of hit or miss. If the MM form a tight ball, then only the front row of zealots will be engaging the enemy units. Chargelots can actually bottleneck even on an open field. This doesn't happen all the time, of course, and players with much better control than me will obviously mitigate it better - but still, it's very positional and Protoss can't really afford the luxury of waiting very long for the perfect situation to engage.
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On September 09 2011 04:40 hugman wrote:
You can't look exclusively at GSL. Yes, they are the better players, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that there are more good Terran players in Korea. Even if that's because Terran is a slightly better race that still doesn't mean that you can use the GSL race distribution as a straight up indication of balance.
In the foreigner scene we have lots of great Protoss players, White_Ra, MaNa, Socke, KiWiKaKi, HuK to name a few, then there are lots more slightly less prominent ones like HasuObs, NightEnD, Adelscott, SaSe etc.
You don't see the foreigner scene being completely dominated by Terrans and you can't claim that's because foreigner Terrans are comparatively worse than foreigner Z or P because they're not.
I can certainly claim the foreign scene is dominated by terrans.
someone did a statistics of all tournaments ran on TL ... showed 50% finalists by terran, 25% by protoss, 25% by zerg roughly.
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On September 09 2011 05:10 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 04:55 Toadvine wrote:On September 09 2011 04:40 hugman wrote:
You can't look exclusively at GSL. Yes, they are the better players, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that there are more good Terran players in Korea. Even if that's because Terran is a slightly better race that still doesn't mean that you can use the GSL race distribution as a straight up indication of balance.
In the foreigner scene we have lots of great Protoss players, White_Ra, MaNa, Socke, KiWiKaKi, HuK to name a few, then there are lots more slightly less prominent ones like HasuObs, NightEnD, Adelscott, SaSe etc.
You don't see the foreigner scene being completely dominated by Terrans and you can't claim that's because foreigner Terrans are comparatively worse than foreigner Z or P because they're not. Why is it plausible that Korean Terrans are simply better than their Zerg and Protoss counterparts, but implausible that foreigner Zergs and Protosses are better in the same way? Yeah, I know, it's because the latter doesn't fit your preconceived notion, while the former does. Because foreigner Terrans haven't been doing worse than foreigner P & Z against Koreans.
I'm pretty sure I could make a strong argument in favor of foreigner Protosses doing better against Koreans than both foreigner Terrans and Zergs.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:12 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 04:06 Crying wrote:
Oh,i must've read really bad :D
But yea, Terran has been dominating since january....It was fun to play the game during beta/retail 5-6months cos the game wasnt figured out and now it just seems MEH,Broodwar took iit 10-12years to get figured out and SC2 takes like a year,and yes its kinda figured out now...
The limited things an Protoss can do is for instance vs zerg FE into Stargate that is not gimmicky,but macro oriented as MC says.
In broodwar vs zerg we could've done is like skip stargate and go chargelot,archon two base ,we could've gone reaver/sair heavy harass,we could've gone standart sair into templar harass,we could've gone carriers even (Nal_Ra) :D
But now ... we are SO LIMITED by strategies,and nono its not that we havent had them figured out its just becuase that race is so scarce. Basic problem atm is that the warpgate nerf means it's safer for Z to drone a bit heavier both against 4 warpgate and 6-7 warpgate all ins, and still defend them. It's not a huge change, but it's big enough to change the balance. One thing I am waiting for protoss to try is to see that Z is taking 3 bases and droning, and take 3 bases themselves ... it should be possible to secure with cannon / pylon / warpgate placement. Because what Z is doing atm is going up to 3 bases full saturation before making units, feeling safe against pretty much anything, having figured out all the DT / VR / gateway timings. But a turtling 3 base protoss might be impossible to break with cannons / colossus defense for example ... Still, I guess it's not viable since I haven't seen any high lvl protoss even attempt it...
It's not viable. You can't make probes as fast as zerg can make drones, not even close. All zerg has to do is make a bunch of lings then go back to drones and they can stop you from taking a 3rd until you get sufficient tech or a whole lot of units out to force taking the third. If you rush a third, zerg will finish making drones, then hit you while you're half way saturated and you'll just die, especially since you will only have tech or only have units, not both.
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On September 09 2011 03:36 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
MC has not kept up with the meta game, that is why is he is in Code A. I just looked at the winrate for the last GSL, there was nothing you could point out and call imbalanced from looking at it. Generally if its bio vs standard protoss builds the better player wins, and the ghost vs HT is pretty balanced at the highest level. I don't know why people expect perfect HT control and the best way to play everything after just 1 year of the game being out. I don't know anyone who actually know what they are talking about who thinks this is true. Because it quite clearly is not. Let me just pull out a few stats on those two units: Speed: Ghost: 2.25 --- High Templar1.875 - The ghost is fasterSpell range: EMP: 10 (plus splash radius of 2), Sniper Round: 10 --- Feedback: 9 - The ghosts spells have longer rangeSight range: Ghost:11 --- High Templar: 10 - the ghost even has a longer fucking sight radiusCloak: Ghost: hells yeah --- High Templar: the slowest and most visible unit in the entire game... it leaves a glowing trail ffs And this is just the pure unit vs unit. Not to mention that you cannot prevent a scan from spotting your high templar but you can easily snipe observers with a scan and a viking... and did I mention the whole cloak thing? How stupid do you have to be to think the relationship between these two casters is in any way balanced? Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
Honestly I am starting to agree with IdrA more and more that Protoss are just dumb. They do crazy all in strats that really seem half baked (Trickster vs taeja) and players like MC getting raped because he can't scout. Oh... I see. Well, good luck with that theory.
I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 03:36 flodeskum wrote:On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
MC has not kept up with the meta game, that is why is he is in Code A. I just looked at the winrate for the last GSL, there was nothing you could point out and call imbalanced from looking at it. Generally if its bio vs standard protoss builds the better player wins, and the ghost vs HT is pretty balanced at the highest level. I don't know why people expect perfect HT control and the best way to play everything after just 1 year of the game being out. I don't know anyone who actually know what they are talking about who thinks this is true. Because it quite clearly is not. Let me just pull out a few stats on those two units: Speed: Ghost: 2.25 --- High Templar1.875 - The ghost is fasterSpell range: EMP: 10 (plus splash radius of 2), Sniper Round: 10 --- Feedback: 9 - The ghosts spells have longer rangeSight range: Ghost:11 --- High Templar: 10 - the ghost even has a longer fucking sight radiusCloak: Ghost: hells yeah --- High Templar: the slowest and most visible unit in the entire game... it leaves a glowing trail ffs And this is just the pure unit vs unit. Not to mention that you cannot prevent a scan from spotting your high templar but you can easily snipe observers with a scan and a viking... and did I mention the whole cloak thing? How stupid do you have to be to think the relationship between these two casters is in any way balanced? On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
Honestly I am starting to agree with IdrA more and more that Protoss are just dumb. They do crazy all in strats that really seem half baked (Trickster vs taeja) and players like MC getting raped because he can't scout. Oh... I see. Well, good luck with that theory. I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
That's the general idea, and maybe the patch will help with that, but until this coming patch, warp prisms were essentially made of paper, and vikings took them out so fast it wasn't even funny (at insane range too). It just wasn't a good idea most of the time to try it, especially if you wanted to do it with a bunch of templar (4 templar in a paper airplane is kind of asking to lose the game). It's also not cloaked, that's an awful comparison.
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On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:
I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
If you're a Zerg player why is your avatar Terran?
About the Warp Prism thing, MC already does that. The main weakness is it's absurd fragility. That one Warp Prism carries around 3 HTs in it, normally, and if your opponent gets anywhere near that your HTs die, and then you die (again, MC vs Puma).
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On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 03:36 flodeskum wrote:On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
MC has not kept up with the meta game, that is why is he is in Code A. I just looked at the winrate for the last GSL, there was nothing you could point out and call imbalanced from looking at it. Generally if its bio vs standard protoss builds the better player wins, and the ghost vs HT is pretty balanced at the highest level. I don't know why people expect perfect HT control and the best way to play everything after just 1 year of the game being out. I don't know anyone who actually know what they are talking about who thinks this is true. Because it quite clearly is not. Let me just pull out a few stats on those two units: Speed: Ghost: 2.25 --- High Templar1.875 - The ghost is fasterSpell range: EMP: 10 (plus splash radius of 2), Sniper Round: 10 --- Feedback: 9 - The ghosts spells have longer rangeSight range: Ghost:11 --- High Templar: 10 - the ghost even has a longer fucking sight radiusCloak: Ghost: hells yeah --- High Templar: the slowest and most visible unit in the entire game... it leaves a glowing trail ffs And this is just the pure unit vs unit. Not to mention that you cannot prevent a scan from spotting your high templar but you can easily snipe observers with a scan and a viking... and did I mention the whole cloak thing? How stupid do you have to be to think the relationship between these two casters is in any way balanced? On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
Honestly I am starting to agree with IdrA more and more that Protoss are just dumb. They do crazy all in strats that really seem half baked (Trickster vs taeja) and players like MC getting raped because he can't scout. Oh... I see. Well, good luck with that theory. I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
I honestly hate balance QQ. And I really don't want to be that guy. But vikings have range 9, so that makes it very hard.
Hopefully we'll see more if this after prisms get their HP boost. But JYP did this vs taeja, huk tried it against MVP and MC has been doing it for a while. Protosses are clearly practicing this. When it works it looks awesome. But when that prism dies and you lose 600 gas worth of templars... it's not good.
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On September 08 2011 22:55 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 22:44 Theovide wrote:On September 08 2011 21:18 ForTheDr3am wrote:On September 08 2011 17:25 Dommk wrote:On September 08 2011 13:37 darkness wrote:
Can we all agree that Protoss' late game is strong, but its mid (or early) game is weak? If yes, should it be fixed? Is this even true anymore? You see Mass Ghost late game roll Protoss all the time these days, I can count more games where a Terran has won in the late game in recent tournaments than a Protoss.. I don't see why that surprises anyone. The lategame was reasonably well balanced with 150/150 Ghosts and Amulet Templars (there was like one month where Protoss got over 55% winrate in GSL in PvT), now we have 200/100 Ghosts and no amulet templars. Which is why nearly all PvT lategame wins are by switching to Colossi with the Terran not building vikings fast enough. Though the 200/100 ghost change was a nerf in TvP, as the rest of your army is so mineral intensive. I don't agree to that the amulet was balanced either. In late game it was ridicilous to deal with, you could win a 200/200 food fight decesively, be on like 170 food vs 110, then lose your entire army to warped in HT's and be back to equal. The high win ratio terrans have right now in TvP I wouldn't say is because TvP is imba in anyway in lategame, it's more about the early game and especially the 1-1-1. Because 1-1-1 basically affects all games where a terran goes anything but gasless expand as protoss then has to prepare for on possible 1-1-1. Though the 1-1-1's popularity is still kind of new, so I'd actually prefer if the waited a bit more before changing anything, just to give players a chance to figure it out themselves. (The 1.4 patch will be good, it will help protoss players slightly to deal with 1-1-1, and I really think that's all that is needed.) That's like saying HTs with 100/100 or 150/50 would be "nerfing" them because the Zealots are so mineral-intensive. Cheaper (on gas) Ghosts mean that Terran can get additional Medivacs/Vikings with the gas, it's in no way a nerf. While warpin Storms were strong, Terrans barely built any Ghosts back then, and if they did they still did well. If you are 170 vs 110 food back then the best idea would be pulling back until you have EMPs available again if the army is too low health to survive Storms. Without warpin Storms, there are now situations where MC is 200 vs 170 food ahead, but loses the battle decisively simply because he lost 3 Templars. Or where Protoss loses the game against a single double-medivac drop because he has just used the majority of his warpgates elsewhere. I stand by my opinion that amulet would be perfectly balanced now, seeing that T finally started to build more than just 2-3 Ghosts. They would not make it possible to make ridiculous comebacks like you claim they do because T will just snipe/EMP them or box 2-3 units forwards to attack them, but they would help with drop defence and prevent Protoss from losing to massed Ghosts too easily, as well as making Storm drops more viable and expansions more defendable. Edit: But in all fairness I don't actually care, at least in comparision to what 1-1-1 does to Protoss progamers nowadays.
I strongly disagree, your claim saying that making HT's costing 100/100 would be a nerf because you build them with zealots are based under the assumption that you build them with zealots because zealot+ht/archon is the best composition with HT's. That's not true, in Zealot+ht/archon you use zealots mostly because they are a mineral dump meanwhile HT's a gas dump, so they fit togheter very well in the costs. Meanwhile if you actually could as a protoss (if we say HT's costed 200 resources, of any choice), you'd never build as many zealots as you do right now playing zealot/ht/archon, instead you'd go like ht/zealot/sentry (ff+storm for undodgeable storms and ff+zealot for unkiteable zealots, BOOYAH?).
As terran though when you got 3/3 uppgrades already, you're going to start stacking gas if you have taken all your gases+are going for the normal composition (just building more vikings and medivacs isn't an argument, you don't actually want to have to much food stuck in those).
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we need that khaydarian amulets back
GOGIBUJEOK ftw.
or atleast give sentries some updgrade that lets them start with more energy
why does ghosts, medivacs, ravens and infestors have starting energy upgrades and protoss has nothing
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On September 08 2011 22:14 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 18:42 Belial88 wrote:On September 08 2011 17:22 Joseph123 wrote:On September 08 2011 13:37 darkness wrote:
Can we all agree that Protoss' late game is strong, but its mid (or early) game is weak? If yes, should it be fixed? Well, of course the early game is weak, blizz nerfed all good 1 base strategies to the point they almost never work. Basically, to win in PvT and PvZ you need to have at least 2 bases. Protoss late game is strong, so is terran and zerg lategame? The difference is that protoss has 2 LATE game units that are useless and the other 2 races don't. Whereas Zerg needs at least 3 bases to win in ZvT or ZvP, and if don't make a huge mistake in early game ZvZ, it's all about who gets a third running safely, first. And that's not a bad thing if Blizz is nerfing 1 base strats. There's also still DT rushes, stargate rushes, and 4 gate, 5 gate, 2 gate, and cannon rushing. Most Protoss don't do these rushes, but instead of a FE (which makes it a minute longer at least), but Zerg has a pretty hard time in regards to scouting such 1 base play. Are you trolling or you just don't play this game at all? Half the PvZ ladder games a few months ago were speedling roach or 7 roach rushes. Even 6pool wins you more than 50% games. Just check July's last games for more examples. Anyway... With today's Up&Down games I would like to know the code S race distribution. I feel it's not gonna be too balanced.
First off, a code s gsl player losing to 6 pool is a joke. We saw how that 'top tier protoss player' threw away that game by playing bad. You tell me he's on the same level as bomber, and then say balance is why Protoss are losing, not bad play.
Secondly, roach/ling aggression and july's baneling/roach 1 base are pretty flimsy, as we all know now. Oh no, build a 2nd cannon, Zerg's complete all-in is suddenly denied. It was all the rage 2 months ago, it gave Zerg some wins, and now, it's outdated. It has it's place still, but most Protoss now know how to handle it. Just like Zerg now know how to handle stargate and FFE.
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On September 09 2011 06:02 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:
I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
If you're a Zerg player why is your avatar Terran?
It's the default icon
Who cares?
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:23 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 06:02 SeaSwift wrote:On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:
I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
If you're a Zerg player why is your avatar Terran? It's the default icon Who cares?
Sorry, this is a little off topic, but..... may I have a hug? :D
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On September 09 2011 06:14 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 22:14 Salteador Neo wrote:On September 08 2011 18:42 Belial88 wrote:On September 08 2011 17:22 Joseph123 wrote:On September 08 2011 13:37 darkness wrote:
Can we all agree that Protoss' late game is strong, but its mid (or early) game is weak? If yes, should it be fixed? Well, of course the early game is weak, blizz nerfed all good 1 base strategies to the point they almost never work. Basically, to win in PvT and PvZ you need to have at least 2 bases. Protoss late game is strong, so is terran and zerg lategame? The difference is that protoss has 2 LATE game units that are useless and the other 2 races don't. Whereas Zerg needs at least 3 bases to win in ZvT or ZvP, and if don't make a huge mistake in early game ZvZ, it's all about who gets a third running safely, first. And that's not a bad thing if Blizz is nerfing 1 base strats. There's also still DT rushes, stargate rushes, and 4 gate, 5 gate, 2 gate, and cannon rushing. Most Protoss don't do these rushes, but instead of a FE (which makes it a minute longer at least), but Zerg has a pretty hard time in regards to scouting such 1 base play. Are you trolling or you just don't play this game at all? Half the PvZ ladder games a few months ago were speedling roach or 7 roach rushes. Even 6pool wins you more than 50% games. Just check July's last games for more examples. Anyway... With today's Up&Down games I would like to know the code S race distribution. I feel it's not gonna be too balanced. First off, a code s gsl player losing to 6 pool is a joke. We saw how that 'top tier protoss player' threw away that game by playing bad. You tell me he's on the same level as bomber, and then say balance is why Protoss are losing, not bad play.Secondly, roach/ling aggression and july's baneling/roach 1 base are pretty flimsy, as we all know now. Oh no, build a 2nd cannon, Zerg's complete all-in is suddenly denied. It was all the rage 2 months ago, it gave Zerg some wins, and now, it's outdated. It has it's place still, but most Protoss now know how to handle it. Just like Zerg now know how to handle stargate and FFE.
When I saw bomber lose to destiny I too made sweeping generalizations about his skill level...
Hongun didn't lose to july's 6 pool, he held that off easily and was way ahead. He lost because july showed him 5 lings and then ran in with 20 and hongun couldn't forcefield in time. Missing forcefields happens to everyone, you can't spend all of your time staring at your sentries.
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On September 09 2011 06:25 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 06:23 hugman wrote:On September 09 2011 06:02 SeaSwift wrote:On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:
I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
If you're a Zerg player why is your avatar Terran? It's the default icon Who cares? Sorry, this is a little off topic, but..... may I have a hug? :D
+ Show Spoiler +
My sister gave me this nick when I was like 11 and didn't speak English... 
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 08:14 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 06:25 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 06:23 hugman wrote:On September 09 2011 06:02 SeaSwift wrote:On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:
I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
If you're a Zerg player why is your avatar Terran? It's the default icon Who cares? Sorry, this is a little off topic, but..... may I have a hug? :D + Show Spoiler +My sister gave me this nick when I was like 11 and didn't speak English...
Yes! A hug!
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On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 03:36 flodeskum wrote:On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
MC has not kept up with the meta game, that is why is he is in Code A. I just looked at the winrate for the last GSL, there was nothing you could point out and call imbalanced from looking at it. Generally if its bio vs standard protoss builds the better player wins, and the ghost vs HT is pretty balanced at the highest level. I don't know why people expect perfect HT control and the best way to play everything after just 1 year of the game being out. I don't know anyone who actually know what they are talking about who thinks this is true. Because it quite clearly is not. Let me just pull out a few stats on those two units: Speed: Ghost: 2.25 --- High Templar1.875 - The ghost is fasterSpell range: EMP: 10 (plus splash radius of 2), Sniper Round: 10 --- Feedback: 9 - The ghosts spells have longer rangeSight range: Ghost:11 --- High Templar: 10 - the ghost even has a longer fucking sight radiusCloak: Ghost: hells yeah --- High Templar: the slowest and most visible unit in the entire game... it leaves a glowing trail ffs And this is just the pure unit vs unit. Not to mention that you cannot prevent a scan from spotting your high templar but you can easily snipe observers with a scan and a viking... and did I mention the whole cloak thing? How stupid do you have to be to think the relationship between these two casters is in any way balanced? On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
Honestly I am starting to agree with IdrA more and more that Protoss are just dumb. They do crazy all in strats that really seem half baked (Trickster vs taeja) and players like MC getting raped because he can't scout. Oh... I see. Well, good luck with that theory. I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about.
They did this in BW alot in all match ups to increase mobility. Except people aren't going to do it until a Korean does it as usual. Kind of like Mech in TvT. Every body said it wasn;t viable b/c of Marauders. Then the few said all you had to do was make ravens. A Korean did it and now everyone does it.
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On September 09 2011 08:59 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:54 swift_knife wrote:On September 09 2011 03:36 flodeskum wrote:On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
MC has not kept up with the meta game, that is why is he is in Code A. I just looked at the winrate for the last GSL, there was nothing you could point out and call imbalanced from looking at it. Generally if its bio vs standard protoss builds the better player wins, and the ghost vs HT is pretty balanced at the highest level. I don't know why people expect perfect HT control and the best way to play everything after just 1 year of the game being out. I don't know anyone who actually know what they are talking about who thinks this is true. Because it quite clearly is not. Let me just pull out a few stats on those two units: Speed: Ghost: 2.25 --- High Templar1.875 - The ghost is fasterSpell range: EMP: 10 (plus splash radius of 2), Sniper Round: 10 --- Feedback: 9 - The ghosts spells have longer rangeSight range: Ghost:11 --- High Templar: 10 - the ghost even has a longer fucking sight radiusCloak: Ghost: hells yeah --- High Templar: the slowest and most visible unit in the entire game... it leaves a glowing trail ffs And this is just the pure unit vs unit. Not to mention that you cannot prevent a scan from spotting your high templar but you can easily snipe observers with a scan and a viking... and did I mention the whole cloak thing? How stupid do you have to be to think the relationship between these two casters is in any way balanced? On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote:
Honestly I am starting to agree with IdrA more and more that Protoss are just dumb. They do crazy all in strats that really seem half baked (Trickster vs taeja) and players like MC getting raped because he can't scout. Oh... I see. Well, good luck with that theory. I don't post a lot here and i'm probably going to sound like a troll but here goes...WHAT IF you would put your High templars in a Warp Prism, and like, drop them and land storm and get back in? then you dont have to wait for the templars to be in position, and you can't get emp'd. It will also make templars "Cloaked" because terran can't see inside the warp prism so you can do cute stuff like fake storms etc, and have extra mobility AND you can fly! WOO A FLYING HIGH TEMPLAR THAT HAS DECENT SPEED AND IS CLOAKED, that sounds almost as retarded as banshees! Also this is coming from a zerg player so I have no idea what I'm talking about. They did this in BW alot in all match ups to increase mobility. Except people aren't going to do it until a Korean does it as usual. Kind of like Mech in TvT. Every body said it wasn;t viable b/c of Marauders. Then the few said all you had to do was make ravens. A Korean did it and now everyone does it.
It feels like it's way too vulnerable to a couple of vikings though. Not sure
Also for the people directly comparing HT to Ghosts: you can't compare two units side by side and claim one is better than the other. Even though they serve similar purposes HT are meant to work with the Protoss army and Ghosts are meant to work with a Terran army. Whether one is better or not, you can't find out by just comparing two units together. Then, I could say probes are imbalanced PvZ because they can warp in buildings alone while a drone must kill himself to make a building.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.portlandmercury.com/images/blogimages/2010/09/20/1285005638-bear_hug.jpg)
