EPTabout Mines: The problem versus Zerg is mines have too much range, and zerg always lose units to kill them, the range should to be reduced less then the roach range, to be more fair and less cost efficient.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 689
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GodZo
Italy224 Posts
about Mines: The problem versus Zerg is mines have too much range, and zerg always lose units to kill them, the range should to be reduced less then the roach range, to be more fair and less cost efficient. | ||
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Real-ISU
Germany30 Posts
In every game, Terran Players only use M&M&M + Mines for the Viktory. No Spellcasters needed, not even Tanks, Raven, Battlecruiser, Thors, Hellbats etc. Thats so boring.... And last but not least... Mules... just a joke. "Oh i forget to build scvs and my mineral line just got kicken, no problem, just throw 6 Mules and the world is fine again... | ||
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Torrnado
United States36 Posts
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halfaspider
United States31 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:19 Torrnado wrote: Mules have been in the game since the beginning, there is no way they will take them out/change them. The problem is how effective Marines are, but without MMMM Terran have no other viable options to attack Z since swarmhost destroys mech Big deal if swarm hosts are good against mech. Let terran be the one to think up an innovative strategy for once. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11048 Posts
Poll: Entertained that we've returned to Marine OP Very entertained (36) Not at all (12) Meh (5) Amused (2) 55 total votes Your vote: Entertained that we've returned to Marine OP (Vote): Very entertained | ||
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Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:10 Real-ISU wrote: Well i think Marines are so extremely effective, no matter against which race. That unit that only cost 50 Minerals dominates the Terran gameplay so hard, because there is no costeffective alternative for the Terran. 3-3 Marines with Combatshields and stim that only cost 50 Minerals with THAT Attackspeed, are such too strong. But threre is no Space for lowering the dmg or increasing its costs. I think it would be better to lower the attackspeed by aproxximately 15%-20% to ensure a good balance and awesome Game for the Future. In every game, Terran Players only use M&M&M + Mines for the Viktory. No Spellcasters needed, not even Tanks, Raven, Battlecruiser, Thors, Hellbats etc. Thats so boring.... And last but not least... Mules... just a joke. "Oh i forget to build scvs and my mineral line just got kicken, no problem, just throw 6 Mules and the world is fine again... well, everything else has been nerfed to hell for Terrans, because despite DK knowing that marines are probably too powerful, they didn't want to nerf them because of early game balance. (some comment 2011) And now we are left with the same circlejerking in every P/Z vT matchup (not in TvT, because 4/5 Terran midtier units have splash and then there is of course the option to match marines with marines). Nothing that costs gas can be very good on its own, because that would be an optimal gas-supplement to mass marines. Meanwhile marines are still allowed to counter every nonsplash unit cost for cost. And those splash units getting nerfed one-by-one whenever (or in the case of the infestor long after) they get figured out to the point that Terran would have to transition out of marines but can't. | ||
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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
I really feel puzzled when I see that Zerg seems to only have a decent chance to win against Terran when they go for the Roach+Lings+Banes all-in. I do completely agree on the fact that mines+boosted medivacs have turned the game. No more running over Tanks and killing medivacs after a favorable engagement. Terran can now boost away and pull back to reinforcements. Not sure what exact change should be made not to completely destroy the pretty well balanced ZvP and TvP. I somehow think that giving the Overseer the cloak ability same as the Observer for Toss would be decent. Zerg keep losing supply when trying to spot mines while Protoss can just fly the Observer on top of the Terran army and use ranged units to take out mines. Just my two-cent idea. | ||
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Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
Sometimes a unit is just too strong, so nerfing it would help it fit in the current balance. When you buff, you create a whole new set of balance problems. David Kim and team do a great job but this worries me in terms of their approach. | ||
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daylu
United States52 Posts
Going Roach/ling or Roach/Hydra prevents the terran from taking a quick 3rd as well as double ebay and gives the Zerg a quicker 3rd and 4th as well. Youre drop defense is not as good without mutas, but terran would rather fight muta/ling straight up anyway because marine/mine destroys it so hard, its also unsustainable for the zerg to keep sending in zerglings to kill mines, not to mention impossible to get tier 3 out without sacrificing an expo. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:21 halfaspider wrote: Big deal if swarm hosts are good against mech. Let terran be the one to think up an innovative strategy for once. Lol it's the race that has been the most innovative these past 3 years. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:10 Real-ISU wrote: Well i think Marines are so extremely effective, no matter against which race. That unit that only cost 50 Minerals dominates the Terran gameplay so hard, because there is no costeffective alternative for the Terran. 3-3 Marines with Combatshields and stim that only cost 50 Minerals with THAT Attackspeed, are such too strong. But threre is no Space for lowering the dmg or increasing its costs. I think it would be better to lower the attackspeed by aproxximately 15%-20% to ensure a good balance and awesome Game for the Future. In every game, Terran Players only use M&M&M + Mines for the Viktory. No Spellcasters needed, not even Tanks, Raven, Battlecruiser, Thors, Hellbats etc. Thats so boring.... And last but not least... Mules... just a joke. "Oh i forget to build scvs and my mineral line just got kicken, no problem, just throw 6 Mules and the world is fine again... Woah woah woah... 15-20% decrease in Marine attack speed would be a ridiculous nerf. That would cut down their effectiveness so much, and they are a staple in every matchup. Consider the implications of such a change. 1) Marines simply become crap in both early game (Zerglings + Zealots would murder them) and late game (they wouldn't scale as well without their DPS). 2) Now Terran cheese is greatly weakened... Zerg players could easily throw down hatches before pools because, heck, drones would overpower 11/11. More greedy play from other races means a mid/lategame disadvantage for Terran. 3) Meanwhile, Terran becomes more susceptible to cheese/aggression. 4) Terran loses so many options for army composition... for example, against Protoss, Terrans need a good DPSer against Zealots. Sure, Terrans could try replacing Marines with Hellbats... but remember the upgrade time? That means Terrans need to create tons of Factories and research the upgrade, as well as mech upgrades. Suddenly, Terrans cannot threaten Protoss around 11 minutes anymore... suddenly Protoss can be more greedy. That is only scratching the surface... and you say "no spellcasters needed"... it's actually more like the opposite. Trust me, if adding in 5-10 Ravens would strengthen the MMMM push, all Terrans would do it! The reason why they don't is not because they aren't necessary... it's because they're not good enough to use. It's like saying "Protoss can win without the use of air against Terrans!" when the truth is that Protoss air isn't great against Terran. We're still complaining about MULEs? Here's some food for thought: if a Terran loses most of his workers, he suffers less initially, but is hurt more long-term. Why? Because Terrans have the slowest SCV production. Protoss players can Chrono Boost their production, and Zergs can replenish 40 workers lost in a matter of minutes. Seriously, changing fundamental aspects of the game like Marines and MULEs would be utterly disastrous. | ||
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GodZo
Italy224 Posts
We're still complaining about MULEs? Here's some food for thought: if a Terran loses most of his workers, he suffers less initially, but is hurt more long-term. Why? Because Terrans have the slowest SCV production. Protoss players can Chrono Boost their production, and Zergs can replenish 40 workers lost in a matter of minutes. They should not to remove them, but substitute with a "3 SCV drop" at cost of 150 minerals, instead of free minerals. Chrono and larvas can make more drones and probes atm but they have a cost. | ||
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halfaspider
United States31 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:29 Faust852 wrote: Lol it's the race that has been the most innovative these past 3 years. MMMM. every game. real innovative. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:34 GodZo wrote: They should not to remove them, but substitute with a "3 SCV drop" at cost of 150 minerals, instead of free minerals. Chrono and larvas can make more drones and probes atm but they have a cost. Chrono and larvas also benefit unit production directly. Chrono affects upgrades directly for the same cost. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:34 GodZo wrote: They should not to remove them, but substitute with a "3 SCV drop" at cost of 150 minerals, instead of free minerals. Chrono and larvas can make more drones and probes atm but they have a cost. Interesting idea. However, it's not balanced. Compare it with Chrono Boost. Chrono Boost allows the Nexus to do 30 seconds of work in 20. Assuming constant Probe production, 2 Chrono Boosts (50 energy) would allow the Nexus to do 1 minute of work in 40 seconds... that extra 20 seconds of work allows you to squeeze out 1 probe and a little more. On the other hand, Terrans suddenly get instant 3 SCVs every 50 energy? Suddenly, Protoss players simply cannot compete in economy! | ||
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GodZo
Italy224 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:40 plogamer wrote: Chrono and larvas also benefit unit production directly. Chrono affects upgrades directly for the same cost. yes, but this is a "time balance". If they doesn't change mules, this game never will be balanced. See Brood War | ||
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Faulteh
Canada48 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:27 daylu wrote: Muta/ling is not gonna work vs. biomine, neither is ultra/infestor, both those comps only delay the inevitable. I feel like more zergs should go roach /hydra, at least initially, going muta/ling basically gives the Terran a free 3rd which is all hes gonna need to continuously trade effectively against you, killing SCV's when a Terran has 3 orbitals is near useless, unless you're using mutas to harass and not banelings. Going Roach/ling or Roach/Hydra prevents the terran from taking a quick 3rd as well as double ebay and gives the Zerg a quicker 3rd and 4th as well. Youre drop defense is not as good without mutas, but terran would rather fight muta/ling straight up anyway because marine/mine destroys it so hard, its also unsustainable for the zerg to keep sending in zerglings to kill mines, not to mention impossible to get tier 3 out without sacrificing an expo. Roach/hydra basically means you can't move out ever. You will get dropped to death. I've been playing "life" style the last 2 weeks and my TvZ has improved greatly. (5 hatch on 3 base, mass ling/bane) This type of style is able to be much more aggressive in the "early mid game" and I think the whole idea is to start trading earlier, on their side of the map, use your macro advantage. You can also get a 4th pretty quickly and get just 5-6 muta's for drop control. To be fair, this is at masters level, so who knows how it will scale in korea. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
On August 12 2013 12:42 Entirety wrote: Interesting idea. However, it's not balanced. Compare it with Chrono Boost. Chrono Boost allows the Nexus to do 30 seconds of work in 20. Assuming constant Probe production, 2 Chrono Boosts (50 energy) would allow the Nexus to do 1 minute of work in 40 seconds... that extra 20 seconds of work allows you to squeeze out 1 probe and a little more. On the other hand, Terrans suddenly get instant 3 SCVs every 50 energy? Suddenly, Protoss players simply cannot compete in economy! Protoss players already can't compete in economy, what are you talking about? Terrans get much more mining because of mules and they always and I mean always get a faster 2nd and 3rd base. | ||
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