On September 05 2011 20:02 Ganseng wrote: since the very begin of the beta test, i've been repeating one thing: HT's feedback is imbalanced vs. T. Feedback is the reason why terrans always go marine marauder - because feedback hard counters any other terran unit composition (be it air or thors). feedback counters ghost medivac banshee raven battlecruiser thor when you can instantly snipe a unit for 200 gas (raven), using just 50 energy at a range of 9, it's over the top. when you can instantly destroy 40 supply of enemy's army (in medivacs) just with one unit and 4 mouse clicks, it' too much. when you can cripple both tier 3 terran units (thor and battlecruiser) instantly with the same unit, it's just ridiculous. when, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (ghost), it's just inacceptable. protoss often complain about sniper round's 10 range (compared to 9 range of feedback). what they fail to mention, is that sniper round has a delay, and feedback is instant. actually if you send 4 ghosts at a single templar with sniper rounds queued up and a single templar at 4 ghosts with 4 feedbacks queued up, all ghosts will die. if you say "emp", i'll remind you that emp removes only 100 energy, leaving enough energy for up to 2 feedbacks. some other facts: seeker missile has a range of 6, auto-turret and PDD of 2 and 3 respectively. yamato has a range of 10, and takes 3 seconds (!!!!!!!!) to launch. feedback interrupts it in 99.9999 % of the cases, even after an emp. 250-mm strike cannons have a range of 7 and require 150 energy (!!!!!!!!!) and 2 seconds (!). Is it not ridiculous?
i've been saying it since beta: feedback is broken. what do i propose? make it remove up to 100 energy/health instead of all energy. it won't be enough, but it will make it somehow fair. it won't affect HT vs ghost/infestor play by any means btw.
i'll try to make a replay on the unit test map and show all the broken issues about the feedback.
Ah, man, you did some mistakes there. Let me help you out, I will rewrite this for you:
“Ghost’s EMP and Snipe are imbalanced vs. P. They hard counter any Protoss unit composition. EMP+Snipe counters: Probes Zealots Stalker Sentries!!!! HTs!!!!! VoidRays Phoenix Carriers Archons!!!! DTs!!!!!! Mothership Immortal!!! Colossi Observer Warpprisms.
When you can almost instantly snipe a unit for 150 gas (HT), using just 50 energy (2 snipes) at range of 10, it’s over the top. When you can instantly turn the tide of a battle by carpet EMPing a whole Protoss army with only 10 supply worth of units, it’stoo much. When you can cripple all backbone units of a Protoss army (Sentries and HTs) instantly with the same unit, it is just ridiculous. When, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (HT), it’s just inacceptable.
“…..”
If you say “storm”, I’ll remind you that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, instead of 100 undodgeable insta damage + energy drain.
Feedback only has a range of 8 and EMP with range 9 interrupts any spell casting (!!!!!!!!).
Ghost is broken.
What do I propose? Give EMP to Raven. Might make this unit viable at last.” -end-
There you go. I guess you mixed up Ghosts and HT a bit there, but hey, ain’t that big of a deal.
Seriously: There are imho other things to worry about than Feedback being OP or broken….
What do I propose? Give EMP to Raven. Might make this unit viable at last.
I don't think it would help to "balance" EMP :/ Imagine 1-1-1 (destiny cloud fist) build where you can add EMP from ravens to marines/tanks/banshee huge dps.
Every time I see a patch coming, balance threads are bound to be made with people suggesting the most ridiculous stuff for the patch, which are pretty darn shortsighted. >_> Just saying that I am GLAD that blizzard does all the balancing instead of you guys. =/
On September 05 2011 20:02 Ganseng wrote: since the very begin of the beta test, i've been repeating one thing: HT's feedback is imbalanced vs. T. Feedback is the reason why terrans always go marine marauder - because feedback hard counters any other terran unit composition (be it air or thors). feedback counters ghost medivac banshee raven battlecruiser thor when you can instantly snipe a unit for 200 gas (raven), using just 50 energy at a range of 9, it's over the top. when you can instantly destroy 40 supply of enemy's army (in medivacs) just with one unit and 4 mouse clicks, it' too much. when you can cripple both tier 3 terran units (thor and battlecruiser) instantly with the same unit, it's just ridiculous. when, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (ghost), it's just inacceptable. protoss often complain about sniper round's 10 range (compared to 9 range of feedback). what they fail to mention, is that sniper round has a delay, and feedback is instant. actually if you send 4 ghosts at a single templar with sniper rounds queued up and a single templar at 4 ghosts with 4 feedbacks queued up, all ghosts will die. if you say "emp", i'll remind you that emp removes only 100 energy, leaving enough energy for up to 2 feedbacks. some other facts: seeker missile has a range of 6, auto-turret and PDD of 2 and 3 respectively. yamato has a range of 10, and takes 3 seconds (!!!!!!!!) to launch. feedback interrupts it in 99.9999 % of the cases, even after an emp. 250-mm strike cannons have a range of 7 and require 150 energy (!!!!!!!!!) and 2 seconds (!). Is it not ridiculous?
i've been saying it since beta: feedback is broken. what do i propose? make it remove up to 100 energy/health instead of all energy. it won't be enough, but it will make it somehow fair. it won't affect HT vs ghost/infestor play by any means btw.
i'll try to make a replay on the unit test map and show all the broken issues about the feedback.
Ah, man, you did some mistakes there. Let me help you out, I will rewrite this for you:
“Ghost’s EMP and Snipe are imbalanced vs. P. They hard counter any Protoss unit composition. EMP+Snipe counters: Probes Zealots Stalker Sentries!!!! HTs!!!!! VoidRays Phoenix Carriers Archons!!!! DTs!!!!!! Mothership Immortal!!! Colossi Observer Warpprisms.
When you can almost instantly snipe a unit for 150 gas (HT), using just 50 energy (2 snipes) at range of 10, it’s over the top. When you can instantly turn the tide of a battle by carpet EMPing a whole Protoss army with only 10 supply worth of units, it’stoo much. When you can cripple all backbone units of a Protoss army (Sentries and HTs) instantly with the same unit, it is just ridiculous. When, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (HT), it’s just inacceptable.
“…..”
If you say “storm”, I’ll remind you that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, instead of 100 undodgeable insta damage + energy drain.
Storm can be an absolute joke. and with the new warp prism tactics hiding HT in them and dropping with storms, it is impossible to hit with EMP. Protoss up till now have massd an army, and right clicked. its about time they started to use their spellcasters more wisely, flank manouvers and didn't just clump up in 1 ball.
Thats just my opinion. Archons can be absolute MEATSHIELDS and by the time you have a ghost it isn't enough to stop heavy gateway pressure.
On September 05 2011 20:02 Ganseng wrote: since the very begin of the beta test, i've been repeating one thing: HT's feedback is imbalanced vs. T. Feedback is the reason why terrans always go marine marauder - because feedback hard counters any other terran unit composition (be it air or thors). feedback counters ghost medivac banshee raven battlecruiser thor when you can instantly snipe a unit for 200 gas (raven), using just 50 energy at a range of 9, it's over the top. when you can instantly destroy 40 supply of enemy's army (in medivacs) just with one unit and 4 mouse clicks, it' too much. when you can cripple both tier 3 terran units (thor and battlecruiser) instantly with the same unit, it's just ridiculous. when, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (ghost), it's just inacceptable. protoss often complain about sniper round's 10 range (compared to 9 range of feedback). what they fail to mention, is that sniper round has a delay, and feedback is instant. actually if you send 4 ghosts at a single templar with sniper rounds queued up and a single templar at 4 ghosts with 4 feedbacks queued up, all ghosts will die. if you say "emp", i'll remind you that emp removes only 100 energy, leaving enough energy for up to 2 feedbacks. some other facts: seeker missile has a range of 6, auto-turret and PDD of 2 and 3 respectively. yamato has a range of 10, and takes 3 seconds (!!!!!!!!) to launch. feedback interrupts it in 99.9999 % of the cases, even after an emp. 250-mm strike cannons have a range of 7 and require 150 energy (!!!!!!!!!) and 2 seconds (!). Is it not ridiculous?
i've been saying it since beta: feedback is broken. what do i propose? make it remove up to 100 energy/health instead of all energy. it won't be enough, but it will make it somehow fair. it won't affect HT vs ghost/infestor play by any means btw.
i'll try to make a replay on the unit test map and show all the broken issues about the feedback.
Ah, man, you did some mistakes there. Let me help you out, I will rewrite this for you:
“Ghost’s EMP and Snipe are imbalanced vs. P. They hard counter any Protoss unit composition. EMP+Snipe counters: Probes Zealots Stalker Sentries!!!! HTs!!!!! VoidRays Phoenix Carriers Archons!!!! DTs!!!!!! Mothership Immortal!!! Colossi Observer Warpprisms.
When you can almost instantly snipe a unit for 150 gas (HT), using just 50 energy (2 snipes) at range of 10, it’s over the top. When you can instantly turn the tide of a battle by carpet EMPing a whole Protoss army with only 10 supply worth of units, it’stoo much. When you can cripple all backbone units of a Protoss army (Sentries and HTs) instantly with the same unit, it is just ridiculous. When, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (HT), it’s just inacceptable.
“…..”
If you say “storm”, I’ll remind you that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, instead of 100 undodgeable insta damage + energy drain.
Storm can be an absolute joke. and with the new warp prism tactics hiding HT in them and dropping with storms, it is impossible to hit with EMP. Protoss up till now have massd an army, and right clicked. its about time they started to use their spellcasters more wisely, flank manouvers and didn't just clump up in 1 ball.
Thats just my opinion. Archons can be absolute MEATSHIELDS and by the time you have a ghost it isn't enough to stop heavy gateway pressure.
My post was rather meant to be an ironic parody of the post that I quoted. I don't intend to complain about Ghosts or whatever. But I think the post I refered to was a bit biased and "hyperbolic", so I thought rewriting it might be a neat idea
On September 05 2011 20:02 Ganseng wrote: since the very begin of the beta test, i've been repeating one thing: HT's feedback is imbalanced vs. T. Feedback is the reason why terrans always go marine marauder - because feedback hard counters any other terran unit composition (be it air or thors). feedback counters ghost medivac banshee raven battlecruiser thor when you can instantly snipe a unit for 200 gas (raven), using just 50 energy at a range of 9, it's over the top. when you can instantly destroy 40 supply of enemy's army (in medivacs) just with one unit and 4 mouse clicks, it' too much. when you can cripple both tier 3 terran units (thor and battlecruiser) instantly with the same unit, it's just ridiculous. when, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (ghost), it's just inacceptable. protoss often complain about sniper round's 10 range (compared to 9 range of feedback). what they fail to mention, is that sniper round has a delay, and feedback is instant. actually if you send 4 ghosts at a single templar with sniper rounds queued up and a single templar at 4 ghosts with 4 feedbacks queued up, all ghosts will die. if you say "emp", i'll remind you that emp removes only 100 energy, leaving enough energy for up to 2 feedbacks. some other facts: seeker missile has a range of 6, auto-turret and PDD of 2 and 3 respectively. yamato has a range of 10, and takes 3 seconds (!!!!!!!!) to launch. feedback interrupts it in 99.9999 % of the cases, even after an emp. 250-mm strike cannons have a range of 7 and require 150 energy (!!!!!!!!!) and 2 seconds (!). Is it not ridiculous?
i've been saying it since beta: feedback is broken. what do i propose? make it remove up to 100 energy/health instead of all energy. it won't be enough, but it will make it somehow fair. it won't affect HT vs ghost/infestor play by any means btw.
i'll try to make a replay on the unit test map and show all the broken issues about the feedback.
Ah, man, you did some mistakes there. Let me help you out, I will rewrite this for you:
“Ghost’s EMP and Snipe are imbalanced vs. P. They hard counter any Protoss unit composition. EMP+Snipe counters: Probes Zealots Stalker Sentries!!!! HTs!!!!! VoidRays Phoenix Carriers Archons!!!! DTs!!!!!! Mothership Immortal!!! Colossi Observer Warpprisms.
When you can almost instantly snipe a unit for 150 gas (HT), using just 50 energy (2 snipes) at range of 10, it’s over the top. When you can instantly turn the tide of a battle by carpet EMPing a whole Protoss army with only 10 supply worth of units, it’stoo much. When you can cripple all backbone units of a Protoss army (Sentries and HTs) instantly with the same unit, it is just ridiculous. When, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (HT), it’s just inacceptable.
“…..”
If you say “storm”, I’ll remind you that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, instead of 100 undodgeable insta damage + energy drain.
Feedback only has a range of 8 and EMP with range 9 interrupts any spell casting (!!!!!!!!).
Ghost is broken.
What do I propose? Give EMP to Raven. Might make this unit viable at last.” -end-
There you go. I guess you mixed up Ghosts and HT a bit there, but hey, ain’t that big of a deal.
Seriously: There are imho other things to worry about than Feedback being OP or broken….
if that was true, why don't we ever see anything else except for marine/marauder in tvp (apart from some all ins)? and feedback has a range of 9.
On September 05 2011 20:02 Ganseng wrote: since the very begin of the beta test, i've been repeating one thing: HT's feedback is imbalanced vs. T. Feedback is the reason why terrans always go marine marauder - because feedback hard counters any other terran unit composition (be it air or thors). feedback counters ghost medivac banshee raven battlecruiser thor when you can instantly snipe a unit for 200 gas (raven), using just 50 energy at a range of 9, it's over the top. when you can instantly destroy 40 supply of enemy's army (in medivacs) just with one unit and 4 mouse clicks, it' too much. when you can cripple both tier 3 terran units (thor and battlecruiser) instantly with the same unit, it's just ridiculous. when, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (ghost), it's just inacceptable. protoss often complain about sniper round's 10 range (compared to 9 range of feedback). what they fail to mention, is that sniper round has a delay, and feedback is instant. actually if you send 4 ghosts at a single templar with sniper rounds queued up and a single templar at 4 ghosts with 4 feedbacks queued up, all ghosts will die. if you say "emp", i'll remind you that emp removes only 100 energy, leaving enough energy for up to 2 feedbacks. some other facts: seeker missile has a range of 6, auto-turret and PDD of 2 and 3 respectively. yamato has a range of 10, and takes 3 seconds (!!!!!!!!) to launch. feedback interrupts it in 99.9999 % of the cases, even after an emp. 250-mm strike cannons have a range of 7 and require 150 energy (!!!!!!!!!) and 2 seconds (!). Is it not ridiculous?
i've been saying it since beta: feedback is broken. what do i propose? make it remove up to 100 energy/health instead of all energy. it won't be enough, but it will make it somehow fair. it won't affect HT vs ghost/infestor play by any means btw.
i'll try to make a replay on the unit test map and show all the broken issues about the feedback.
Ah, man, you did some mistakes there. Let me help you out, I will rewrite this for you:
“Ghost’s EMP and Snipe are imbalanced vs. P. They hard counter any Protoss unit composition. EMP+Snipe counters: Probes Zealots Stalker Sentries!!!! HTs!!!!! VoidRays Phoenix Carriers Archons!!!! DTs!!!!!! Mothership Immortal!!! Colossi Observer Warpprisms.
When you can almost instantly snipe a unit for 150 gas (HT), using just 50 energy (2 snipes) at range of 10, it’s over the top. When you can instantly turn the tide of a battle by carpet EMPing a whole Protoss army with only 10 supply worth of units, it’stoo much. When you can cripple all backbone units of a Protoss army (Sentries and HTs) instantly with the same unit, it is just ridiculous. When, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (HT), it’s just inacceptable.
“…..”
If you say “storm”, I’ll remind you that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, instead of 100 undodgeable insta damage + energy drain.
Feedback only has a range of 8 and EMP with range 9 interrupts any spell casting (!!!!!!!!).
Ghost is broken.
What do I propose? Give EMP to Raven. Might make this unit viable at last.” -end-
There you go. I guess you mixed up Ghosts and HT a bit there, but hey, ain’t that big of a deal.
Seriously: There are imho other things to worry about than Feedback being OP or broken….
if that was true, why don't we ever see anything else except for marine/marauder in tvp (apart from some all ins)? and feedback has a range of 9.
1) Mech is hard. Real Men Mech 2) Marauders are easy. Why am I going to do something that's hard when I can make Marauders. 3) You could always EMP your Thors. 4)Air has never been viable in any match up.
On September 05 2011 20:02 Ganseng wrote: since the very begin of the beta test, i've been repeating one thing: HT's feedback is imbalanced vs. T. Feedback is the reason why terrans always go marine marauder - because feedback hard counters any other terran unit composition (be it air or thors). feedback counters ghost medivac banshee raven battlecruiser thor when you can instantly snipe a unit for 200 gas (raven), using just 50 energy at a range of 9, it's over the top. when you can instantly destroy 40 supply of enemy's army (in medivacs) just with one unit and 4 mouse clicks, it' too much. when you can cripple both tier 3 terran units (thor and battlecruiser) instantly with the same unit, it's just ridiculous. when, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (ghost), it's just inacceptable. protoss often complain about sniper round's 10 range (compared to 9 range of feedback). what they fail to mention, is that sniper round has a delay, and feedback is instant. actually if you send 4 ghosts at a single templar with sniper rounds queued up and a single templar at 4 ghosts with 4 feedbacks queued up, all ghosts will die. if you say "emp", i'll remind you that emp removes only 100 energy, leaving enough energy for up to 2 feedbacks. some other facts: seeker missile has a range of 6, auto-turret and PDD of 2 and 3 respectively. yamato has a range of 10, and takes 3 seconds (!!!!!!!!) to launch. feedback interrupts it in 99.9999 % of the cases, even after an emp. 250-mm strike cannons have a range of 7 and require 150 energy (!!!!!!!!!) and 2 seconds (!). Is it not ridiculous?
i've been saying it since beta: feedback is broken. what do i propose? make it remove up to 100 energy/health instead of all energy. it won't be enough, but it will make it somehow fair. it won't affect HT vs ghost/infestor play by any means btw.
i'll try to make a replay on the unit test map and show all the broken issues about the feedback.
Ah, man, you did some mistakes there. Let me help you out, I will rewrite this for you:
“Ghost’s EMP and Snipe are imbalanced vs. P. They hard counter any Protoss unit composition. EMP+Snipe counters: Probes Zealots Stalker Sentries!!!! HTs!!!!! VoidRays Phoenix Carriers Archons!!!! DTs!!!!!! Mothership Immortal!!! Colossi Observer Warpprisms.
When you can almost instantly snipe a unit for 150 gas (HT), using just 50 energy (2 snipes) at range of 10, it’s over the top. When you can instantly turn the tide of a battle by carpet EMPing a whole Protoss army with only 10 supply worth of units, it’stoo much. When you can cripple all backbone units of a Protoss army (Sentries and HTs) instantly with the same unit, it is just ridiculous. When, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (HT), it’s just inacceptable.
“…..”
If you say “storm”, I’ll remind you that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, instead of 100 undodgeable insta damage + energy drain.
Feedback only has a range of 8 and EMP with range 9 interrupts any spell casting (!!!!!!!!).
Ghost is broken.
What do I propose? Give EMP to Raven. Might make this unit viable at last.” -end-
There you go. I guess you mixed up Ghosts and HT a bit there, but hey, ain’t that big of a deal.
Seriously: There are imho other things to worry about than Feedback being OP or broken….
if that was true, why don't we ever see anything else except for marine/marauder in tvp (apart from some all ins)? and feedback has a range of 9.
And EMP has range of 10 with radius 2, Snipe has range 10, Ghost got high move speed and cloak. Storm has range 9 and radius 1,5. Terran has far far far easier to get off EMPs and snipe then HTs have to throw Feedback or Storm, its not even close. If anything feedback who is single target spell and P's only way to prevent EMP should at least get higher range.
On September 05 2011 20:02 Ganseng wrote: since the very begin of the beta test, i've been repeating one thing: HT's feedback is imbalanced vs. T. Feedback is the reason why terrans always go marine marauder - because feedback hard counters any other terran unit composition (be it air or thors). feedback counters ghost medivac banshee raven battlecruiser thor when you can instantly snipe a unit for 200 gas (raven), using just 50 energy at a range of 9, it's over the top. when you can instantly destroy 40 supply of enemy's army (in medivacs) just with one unit and 4 mouse clicks, it' too much. when you can cripple both tier 3 terran units (thor and battlecruiser) instantly with the same unit, it's just ridiculous. when, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (ghost), it's just inacceptable. protoss often complain about sniper round's 10 range (compared to 9 range of feedback). what they fail to mention, is that sniper round has a delay, and feedback is instant. actually if you send 4 ghosts at a single templar with sniper rounds queued up and a single templar at 4 ghosts with 4 feedbacks queued up, all ghosts will die. if you say "emp", i'll remind you that emp removes only 100 energy, leaving enough energy for up to 2 feedbacks. some other facts: seeker missile has a range of 6, auto-turret and PDD of 2 and 3 respectively. yamato has a range of 10, and takes 3 seconds (!!!!!!!!) to launch. feedback interrupts it in 99.9999 % of the cases, even after an emp. 250-mm strike cannons have a range of 7 and require 150 energy (!!!!!!!!!) and 2 seconds (!). Is it not ridiculous?
i've been saying it since beta: feedback is broken. what do i propose? make it remove up to 100 energy/health instead of all energy. it won't be enough, but it will make it somehow fair. it won't affect HT vs ghost/infestor play by any means btw.
i'll try to make a replay on the unit test map and show all the broken issues about the feedback.
Ah, man, you did some mistakes there. Let me help you out, I will rewrite this for you:
“Ghost’s EMP and Snipe are imbalanced vs. P. They hard counter any Protoss unit composition. EMP+Snipe counters: Probes Zealots Stalker Sentries!!!! HTs!!!!! VoidRays Phoenix Carriers Archons!!!! DTs!!!!!! Mothership Immortal!!! Colossi Observer Warpprisms.
When you can almost instantly snipe a unit for 150 gas (HT), using just 50 energy (2 snipes) at range of 10, it’s over the top. When you can instantly turn the tide of a battle by carpet EMPing a whole Protoss army with only 10 supply worth of units, it’stoo much. When you can cripple all backbone units of a Protoss army (Sentries and HTs) instantly with the same unit, it is just ridiculous. When, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (HT), it’s just inacceptable.
“…..”
If you say “storm”, I’ll remind you that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, instead of 100 undodgeable insta damage + energy drain.
Storm can be an absolute joke. and with the new warp prism tactics hiding HT in them and dropping with storms, it is impossible to hit with EMP. Protoss up till now have massd an army, and right clicked. its about time they started to use their spellcasters more wisely, flank manouvers and didn't just clump up in 1 ball.
Thats just my opinion. Archons can be absolute MEATSHIELDS and by the time you have a ghost it isn't enough to stop heavy gateway pressure.
Every single time we've seen the Warp Prism and HT play in high level games, the Warp Prism would die the moment it got close to the Terran army. 5 Vikings oneshot a Warp Prism. After the buff, 4 Vikings will twoshot it. Impossible to deal with indeed.
And you know what, try flanking with Thors or BCs sometime, and see how that works out for you. Do you know why I mention these units? Because they have the exact same movement speed as HTs. Although I guess they at least don't die the moment anything so much as sneezes at them, so it's even harder for the Protoss.
On September 05 2011 14:52 sharktopus. wrote: If you had to do a pylon chain from your nexus for warp-ins, how would you ever put early pressure on your opponents by pushing out and reinforcing your army with a proxy pylon? it would force every build to include a robotics facility for warp prisms just to reinforce your push.
i also don't understand making warpgate research require a twilight council. that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. we already have to research it, and they have already increased research time, so why do we have to add a building requirement to that research as well?
The only reasonable change to warp-in is to change the cooldown so it actually takes MORE time if you use warp-in compared to straight up building the units in a Gateway, so you have to decide between "get more units faster or from fewer buildings" and "get units wherever you want" ...
how is that a reasonable change? it's hard enough to remacro your army after a battle, a longer cooldown would make it almost impossible, especially against Terran and Zerg, and if we had to build them from Gateways without warp, then they'd have to walk across the map to reinforce your army, instead of being able to warp-in from a proxy pylon to reinforce. a change like that would be devastating to protoss.
On September 05 2011 21:53 tyles wrote: Storm can be an absolute joke. and with the new warp prism tactics hiding HT in them and dropping with storms, it is impossible to hit with EMP. Protoss up till now have massd an army, and right clicked. its about time they started to use their spellcasters more wisely, flank manouvers and didn't just clump up in 1 ball.
I have only seen that warp prism tactic with HT's in really high level games, and even then it wasn't a game changing tactic. Your average ladder player will most likely not be able to pull that off.
[QUOTE]On September 06 2011 05:04 sharktopus. wrote: how is that a reasonable change? it's hard enough to remacro your army after a battle, a longer cooldown would make it almost impossible, especially against Terran and Zerg, and if we had to build them from Gateways without warp, then they'd have to walk across the map to reinforce your army, instead of being able to warp-in from a proxy pylon to reinforce. a change like that would be devastating to protoss. /QUOTE]
I think that part of the goal is to find some way for gateways to be used post warpgate, rather than be totally superceded.
On September 05 2011 15:14 Rabiator wrote: The only reasonable change to warp-in is to change the cooldown so it actually takes MORE time if you use warp-in compared to straight up building the units in a Gateway, so you have to decide between "get more units faster or from fewer buildings" and "get units wherever you want" ...
No offense, but terrible idea. Why not make injected larva morph SLOWER, or mules harvest LESS minerals while we're at it?
Warp-ins are a benefit to the protoss that gets balanced out by the benefits the other races also have unique to them. They shouldn't be nerfed in any way, unless you nerf all other races as well.
On September 05 2011 20:02 Ganseng wrote: since the very begin of the beta test, i've been repeating one thing: HT's feedback is imbalanced vs. T. Feedback is the reason why terrans always go marine marauder - because feedback hard counters any other terran unit composition (be it air or thors). feedback counters ghost medivac banshee raven battlecruiser thor when you can instantly snipe a unit for 200 gas (raven), using just 50 energy at a range of 9, it's over the top. when you can instantly destroy 40 supply of enemy's army (in medivacs) just with one unit and 4 mouse clicks, it' too much. when you can cripple both tier 3 terran units (thor and battlecruiser) instantly with the same unit, it's just ridiculous. when, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (ghost), it's just inacceptable. protoss often complain about sniper round's 10 range (compared to 9 range of feedback). what they fail to mention, is that sniper round has a delay, and feedback is instant. actually if you send 4 ghosts at a single templar with sniper rounds queued up and a single templar at 4 ghosts with 4 feedbacks queued up, all ghosts will die. if you say "emp", i'll remind you that emp removes only 100 energy, leaving enough energy for up to 2 feedbacks. some other facts: seeker missile has a range of 6, auto-turret and PDD of 2 and 3 respectively. yamato has a range of 10, and takes 3 seconds (!!!!!!!!) to launch. feedback interrupts it in 99.9999 % of the cases, even after an emp. 250-mm strike cannons have a range of 7 and require 150 energy (!!!!!!!!!) and 2 seconds (!). Is it not ridiculous?
i've been saying it since beta: feedback is broken. what do i propose? make it remove up to 100 energy/health instead of all energy. it won't be enough, but it will make it somehow fair. it won't affect HT vs ghost/infestor play by any means btw.
i'll try to make a replay on the unit test map and show all the broken issues about the feedback.
Ah, man, you did some mistakes there. Let me help you out, I will rewrite this for you:
“Ghost’s EMP and Snipe are imbalanced vs. P. They hard counter any Protoss unit composition. EMP+Snipe counters: Probes Zealots Stalker Sentries!!!! HTs!!!!! VoidRays Phoenix Carriers Archons!!!! DTs!!!!!! Mothership Immortal!!! Colossi Observer Warpprisms.
When you can almost instantly snipe a unit for 150 gas (HT), using just 50 energy (2 snipes) at range of 10, it’s over the top. When you can instantly turn the tide of a battle by carpet EMPing a whole Protoss army with only 10 supply worth of units, it’stoo much. When you can cripple all backbone units of a Protoss army (Sentries and HTs) instantly with the same unit, it is just ridiculous. When, on top of that, you have equal chances of killing the unit that is supposed to counter you (HT), it’s just inacceptable.
“…..”
If you say “storm”, I’ll remind you that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, instead of 100 undodgeable insta damage + energy drain.
Feedback only has a range of 8 and EMP with range 9 interrupts any spell casting (!!!!!!!!).
Ghost is broken.
What do I propose? Give EMP to Raven. Might make this unit viable at last.” -end-
There you go. I guess you mixed up Ghosts and HT a bit there, but hey, ain’t that big of a deal.
Seriously: There are imho other things to worry about than Feedback being OP or broken….
if that was true, why don't we ever see anything else except for marine/marauder in tvp (apart from some all ins)? and feedback has a range of 9.
He was wrong about EMP's range too, it's effectively 11 :D
And I think we don't tend to see Ghosts until later on in TvP (ie. after the all in period) because Ghosts themselves won't kill a Protoss army, which means you need a good amount of mining bases. Ghosts are actually fairly common beyond 20 minutes.
Protoss is way too OP against Zerg in endgame. Stalker/Colossi/Sentry with HT support just owns Zerg. Stalker/Colossi kills any roach based composition, and with HT support, any infestor based composition gets rolled.
I know people like to cite the GSL stats, but if you watch all of Nestea or Losira's games, you'll see that all of them end before hive tech or even infestation pit, and all of them end with either some gimmicky all in like hydra, roach/ling, or spinecrawler timing, or overwhelming Protoss who tries to do a 2 base all-in with a 3 base economy from a fast third.
Just watch. Anypro and Hongun? These guys make 10+ gates on 2 base, or do some failed DT opener over and over. MC vs Losira/Nestea has not ever happened.
So the idea that the game is balanced or protoss is losing to Zerg because of game balance is ridiculous. These games go a certain way, and Zerg beat it, before a macro game occurs.
As Idra said, Protoss are [playing] stupid. I'm not trying to flame here, but if you watch the GSL games (please, do a search of Nestea or Losira, and watch all the ZvPs in the last.... year. Nestea has had 3 ZvPs in the last 4 months, and all of the games are just embarassingly bad by P), P always does some goofy, gimmicky strat like stargate or DT, which can be stable and great, but Zerg just hard counters it too well (still taking a fast third, etc) and just comes out ahead. From there it's GG.
On September 06 2011 07:26 Belial88 wrote: Protoss is way too OP against Zerg in endgame. Stalker/Colossi/Sentry with HT support just owns Zerg. Stalker/Colossi kills any roach based composition, and with HT support, any infestor based composition gets rolled.
I know people like to cite the GSL stats, but if you watch all of Nestea or Losira's games, you'll see that all of them end before hive tech or even infestation pit, and all of them end with either some gimmicky all in like hydra, roach/ling, or spinecrawler timing, or overwhelming Protoss who tries to do a 2 base all-in with a 3 base economy from a fast third.
Just watch. Anypro and Hongun? These guys make 10+ gates on 2 base, or do some failed DT opener over and over. MC vs Losira/Nestea has not ever happened.
So the idea that the game is balanced or protoss is losing to Zerg because of game balance is ridiculous. These games go a certain way, and Zerg beat it, before a macro game occurs.
As Idra said, Protoss are [playing] stupid. I'm not trying to flame here, but if you watch the GSL games (please, do a search of Nestea or Losira, and watch all the ZvPs in the last.... year. Nestea has had 3 ZvPs in the last 4 months, and all of the games are just embarassingly bad by P), P always does some goofy, gimmicky strat like stargate or DT, which can be stable and great, but Zerg just hard counters it too well (still taking a fast third, etc) and just comes out ahead. From there it's GG.
I can't help but think that you just got yourself into some shitty situation and didn't do anything fantastic to win. So you lost. And now your here.
I am a Terran player, but my Zerg friends all say Protoss ez pz.
about the 111 look at sases stream hes in korea for like 3 weeks plays top 50 now and crushes any 111 that they throw at him with ease in 1 game he even lost a warprism full of zeals without doing anythign and still crushed the 111 with an expo of his own
On September 06 2011 07:26 Belial88 wrote: Protoss is way too OP against Zerg in endgame. Stalker/Colossi/Sentry with HT support just owns Zerg. Stalker/Colossi kills any roach based composition, and with HT support, any infestor based composition gets rolled.
I can go on for pages, about how wrong you are with those 2 sentences. Thank you.
Please provide us with atleast 3 replays to prove that you know what you are talking about. I am really interested in seing those games.
As Idra said, Protoss are [playing] stupid. I'm not trying to flame here, but if you watch the GSL games (please, do a search of Nestea or Losira, and watch all the ZvPs in the last.... year. Nestea has had 3 ZvPs in the last 4 months, and all of the games are just embarassingly bad by P), P always does some goofy, gimmicky strat like stargate or DT, which can be stable and great, but Zerg just hard counters it too well (still taking a fast third, etc) and just comes out ahead. From there it's GG.
It's not gimmicky, because it's not meant to kill the opponent, and everyone high-level knows it. Protoss SG/DT openings are meant to delay the Z 3rd and defend their 2nd. Otherwise, protoss has no way to defend against a Losira-style roach/ling 2 base all-in on maps with an exposed natural.
On September 06 2011 07:36 mEtRoSG wrote: about the 111 look at sases stream hes in korea for like 3 weeks plays top 50 now and crushes any 111 that they throw at him with ease in 1 game he even lost a warprism full of zeals without doing anythign and still crushed the 111 with an expo of his own
So you're saying 1-1-1 is easy to stop now? Good, we need to stop with the terran nerfs.
On September 06 2011 07:26 Belial88 wrote: Protoss is way too OP against Zerg in endgame. Stalker/Colossi/Sentry with HT support just owns Zerg. Stalker/Colossi kills any roach based composition, and with HT support, any infestor based composition gets rolled.
I know people like to cite the GSL stats, but if you watch all of Nestea or Losira's games, you'll see that all of them end before hive tech or even infestation pit, and all of them end with either some gimmicky all in like hydra, roach/ling, or spinecrawler timing, or overwhelming Protoss who tries to do a 2 base all-in with a 3 base economy from a fast third.
Just watch. Anypro and Hongun? These guys make 10+ gates on 2 base, or do some failed DT opener over and over. MC vs Losira/Nestea has not ever happened.
So the idea that the game is balanced or protoss is losing to Zerg because of game balance is ridiculous. These games go a certain way, and Zerg beat it, before a macro game occurs.
As Idra said, Protoss are [playing] stupid. I'm not trying to flame here, but if you watch the GSL games (please, do a search of Nestea or Losira, and watch all the ZvPs in the last.... year. Nestea has had 3 ZvPs in the last 4 months, and all of the games are just embarassingly bad by P), P always does some goofy, gimmicky strat like stargate or DT, which can be stable and great, but Zerg just hard counters it too well (still taking a fast third, etc) and just comes out ahead. From there it's GG.
try playing protoss vs roach infestor builds brah infestors are off the chain atm with their ability to coutnher every unit in the game. while their harass rapes any type of expansion wtihout 5 cannons. idra makes some retarded statements such as "all protoss play bad" although hes not anywhere near as good as losira, nestea, or any of the KR zergs and no one should take his statements seriously.
EPT
