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merlin101
Switzerland194 Posts
The first guy now lkads up all his spellcasters in a dropship and flys it in the oponents army! What remains: Tier 1.5 Army of superior suply against Tier 1.5 Army with superior upgrades, supportunits and with some spellcasters... If I forgot something about the first ingagement pls tell me. And this thread should be designated not whinignated... So A) please think before you hit post and B) don't post when you're frustrated about a loss! | ||
Dezire
Netherlands640 Posts
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hashaki
Norway210 Posts
On September 01 2011 19:00 Dezire wrote: what i dont get is that zerg have with fungle an equally strong spell as storm, that zerg are allowed to have an energy upgrade for it so they can fungle right away with 7-8 infestors popping out, but when protoss could insta storm it is considered imbalanced... Well, the argument against HT having energyupgrade was that they could be warped in and storm instantly when needed. For T and Z they have to actually spend time making the unit before it pops out. That was the argument going around, despite the fact that also Protoss has a "build-time" of sorts on their warpgates, but the buildtime isn't apparent if a warpgate is ready to warp in a unit. Thus HT with KAmulet became a very strong unit for Protoss because they could be warped in ready to storm, both for offence and defence. Personally when you see how riddiculously strong Infestor/Ghost is (especially vs P) I don't think KAmulet should've been taken out/nerfed, but that's just my personal opinion and got nothing to do with balance or something i think would help balance anything in this game. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On September 01 2011 15:04 merlin101 wrote: So there is a high tier game with 2 S-Class players, Assuming you are talking about MC and Puma, you start being wrong right here. Puma, while probably Code S material, is actually not even in Code A at the moment. one player goes for mass tier 1.5 and some Tier 3 spellcasters. The other guy has a Tier 1.5 Backbone with many 2.5 supporters and a Tier 2.5 Spellcaster. The first guy now lkads up all his spellcasters in a dropship and flys it in the oponents army! These 3 sentences made me cringe. First, stop talking about Tiers, especially when you clearly have no way to categorise units effectively. Are Marines "Tier 1.5"? Are Chargelots also "Tier 1.5"? What about Archons, or Storm HTs? If you are going to use Tiers to talk about a game you need to define clearly which units are in which Tier, instead of just making a generalised statement about one player using higher Tier units (which is definetely debatable here). In addition, because of the strange tech-tree in SC2 P/T (compared to Z) it is very hard to define any units in tiers for those 2 races - it could even be argued they don't really have tiers at all. Lastly, you miss out the fact that player 1 is around 30 supply ahead, and for the one dropship he lost the other player lost THREE, all full of units, and player 2 also lost a high number of Ghosts (presumably the vague 2.5 tier spellcaster you are talking about here). Oh, and the second player lost 2 buildings after player 1 sneaks into his main, etc, etc, yaddayaddayadda. What remains: Tier 1.5 Army of superior suply against Tier 1.5 Army with superior upgrades, supportunits and with some spellcasters... If I forgot something about the first ingagement pls tell me. If you forgot something? Well, to watch the game, maybe? Puma had 3/2, MC had 2/2, the difference in upgrades was negligible. And bleuuugh at you talking about support units etc, you are clearly heavily biased. And this thread should be designated not whinignated... So A) please think before you hit post and B) don't post when you're frustrated about a loss! Whinignated... I should use that word more often in everyday conversation. | ||
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XXhkXX
170 Posts
On September 01 2011 19:00 Dezire wrote: what i dont get is that zerg have with fungle an equally strong spell as storm, that zerg are allowed to have an energy upgrade for it so they can fungle right away with 7-8 infestors popping out, but when protoss could insta storm it is considered imbalanced... When Blizzard issued that patch they stated that they thought that Protoss had too much AOE at the moment. Collosus combined with insta-storm was killer on zerg armies which tend to group up, and with so much AOE and range dodging wouldn't help. When it came to the choice of which AOE option to nerf, Blizzard chose to take out the Amulet upgrade. Additionally, there are other differences between the infestor and the high templar. The main one being that high templar can be warped in at any location so long as there is a powerfield. Considering that a late-game toss can get up quite a few gateways, it was arguable that toss could also mass warp in 7 to 8 templar towards an end game. Plus toss still has collosus  Also, I'm sure you'll be happy to find out that the infestor is in fact getting a nerf next patch, according to the PTR | ||
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Coal
Sweden1535 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On September 03 2011 18:46 Coal wrote: Watching the Code A qualifiers I got an idea. Wouldn't increasing the amount of space in the warp prism be more alluring than increasing the HP/shields? Having both more HP AND additional space would probably be too good, but what if you merged the warp prism speed upgrade with a upgrade similiar to : Increases the amount of units your warp prism can ''store'' by two(zealots)? I can't see it mattering too much since you can warp in units at a Warp Prism. | ||
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Coal
Sweden1535 Posts
On September 03 2011 18:50 branflakes14 wrote: I can't see it mattering too much since you can warp in units at a Warp Prism. That would be the exact point of that change, in the game between Revival and San, San dropped 4 zealots and warped in an additional two-three, but after he managed to snipe the hatchery he could only escape with four of them A change like this would actually enable protoss to drop, warp in more units and escape with more then four zealots -_ -Edit : Dropping without overcommiting would summarize what i'm trying to convey | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On September 03 2011 19:10 Coal wrote: That would be the exact point of that change, in the game between Revival and San, San dropped 4 zealots and warped in an additional two-three, but after he managed to snipe the hatchery he could only escape with four of them A change like this would actually enable protoss to drop, warp in more units and escape with more then four zealots -_ -Edit : Dropping without overcommiting would summarize what i'm trying to convey That would be so fucking OP you have no idea. Warp Prism with the speed upgrade is already faster than all the drop ships and the non-upgraded Warp Prism is faster than speed overlord. Lets say it can carry six zealots instead of 4 that means you can bring a mini army any where on the map by dropping SIX units and warping in. Just no. | ||
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Pessle
United Kingdom37 Posts
Other units which you can drop from a warp prism are immortals and colossus. Immortals are very inefficient at killing workers so similar to the zealot drop you are aiming to snipe tech buildings. Colossus is probably the second most effective worker line drop but it's risk to reward to so huge that it's never really worth it to risk a colossus unless you are very very far behind. High templar drops are probably the most effective drops overall if you have the control to manage them effectively. However high templar drops are really quite rare, the reason i see for this is best looked at for each matchup. In PvP high templar drops are almost unheard of as high templar are probably the worst tech choice in PvP, it's not worth it to tech to high templars and storm just to drop your opponent. In PvT the risk of dropping templar more than once is really quite high due to the range of vikings, therefore without speed warp prisms can't really be used as a solid harassment tool, also warp prism speed in PvT is a super late game move as you can only really support high templar and a robotics bay on 3+ bases, by this point the Terran will have all the workers they want and be able to replenish them very quickly. The same problem occurs in PvZ as PvT, unless you rush for high templar and a warp prism high templar drops just come too late although i see high templar drops becoming much more popular in PvZ due to the amount Zergs opting for the ling infestor style as well as the PTR change to warp prisms shields. The final drop which i think needs to be explored far more are archon drops, especially in PvP. Archon's high health and ranged splash damage attack makes them ideal units to drop in mineral lines. The only down side to Archon drops is their cost, a fully loaded warp prism containing 600 or 500 gas of units inside (based on whether you use DTs or HTs), losing that of gas can put you quite far behind if you don't do significant damage with the drop. The reason i feel this drop could be viable in PvP is because how common archons have become, a lot of people have started going chargelot, blinkstalker, archon, immortal as their late game mix and this composition would also give you all the tech you need to drop archons. However blink stalkers are the main risk to warp prisms in PvP so you would have to use your warp prism more tactically and drop your opponent when ever he moved out with his stalkers. | ||
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ImperialTea
France187 Posts
However, it is obvious that Terran is the most complete race. P and Z give a more unpolished, unfinished feeling. Hope that HotS and LotV will fix that. | ||
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laee
Germany137 Posts
Oh wait | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 03 2011 21:27 Olsson wrote: Some protosses whine that EMP is OP that it takes out half the hitpoints, the shields. Well storm does the same it takes down half of the marauders health in a sec or two and they can't dodge it before they've lost a considerable amount of health. There's a much more complicated problem there, than just what EMP/Storm actually do. It has to do with how the matchup is structured, and the way engagements play out in it. One thing that really stands out when watching PvT is the uneven costliness of mistakes for both sides of the EMP/Storm war. If a Terran gets really good EMPs, he stims his army, moves in, and wins the game. If a Protoss gets really good Storms, the Terran will run away, and the Protoss will end up with an advantage, but nowhere near winning the game outright. The reason this happens, is because it's Terran who can always force an engagement. Protoss can't run away from the Terran army with their slow-ass units. The other reason is that Terran has an advantage in the default scenario. If EMPs/Snipes only go off on HTs, and HTs only Feedback Ghosts without Storming, then the Terran wins, because their core units are simply better. Add the fact that Ghosts are sturdier, faster, and their abilities have superior range, and you end up with a situation where Terran holds all the cards. On September 03 2011 22:23 ImperialTea wrote: The thing with this whole debate is that ghosts don't really have the same role as templars/infestors. They're first and foremost a anticaster unit, which explains why they can counter HTs. Also even if the Terran dodges storms, that is lost dps for him (consider that the bioball's strentgh is its very high dps), and meanwhile the 2-3 colossi in the back will add in even more aoe. If you think about it, Terran has no AOE vs Protoss (except the siege tank, which is never used mid-late game for obvious reasons), while P has AOE in abundance. EMP allows to compensate for this. However, it is obvious that Terran is the most complete race. P and Z give a more unpolished, unfinished feeling. Hope that HotS and LotV will fix that. Against Protoss, Ghosts are easily as good and versatile as HTs and Infestors in general. They're amazing even if Protoss doesn't build an HT for the entire game. Actually, mass Ghost (something Thorzain does on occasion) is surprisingly effective against both P and Z. | ||
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sharktopus.
United States456 Posts
On September 03 2011 22:23 ImperialTea wrote: The thing with this whole debate is that ghosts don't really have the same role as templars/infestors. They're first and foremost a anticaster unit, which explains why they can counter HTs. Also even if the Terran dodges storms, that is lost dps for him (consider that the bioball's strentgh is its very high dps), and meanwhile the 2-3 colossi in the back will add in even more aoe. If you think about it, Terran has no AOE vs Protoss (except the siege tank, which is never used mid-late game for obvious reasons), while P has AOE in abundance. EMP allows to compensate for this. However, it is obvious that Terran is the most complete race. P and Z give a more unpolished, unfinished feeling. Hope that HotS and LotV will fix that. A HT can be considered an anticaster unit, what do you think feedback is for? the problem is that to use it effectively against ghosts, you need to a) have an observer over the terran army to spot cloaked ghosts and b) be fast enough to feedback individual ghosts before they get an EMP off and make your HT's worthless. Considering how micro-intensive that is, I would say it's almost impossible for your average ladder player to pull off. An EMP hits and the damage is done, from there the Terran just stims and moves in for the kill. If we storm a Terran army, they dodge it while medivacs heal units, then move back in. A well placed EMP will pretty much eliminate your chance of survival since you will lose the ability to storm the attacking army, feedback medivacs, use guardian shield, and use forcefield. Protoss has continued to fall behind while Terran and Zerg move ahead. Anyone who complains about zerg being underpowered just hasn't taken an afternoon to figure out how they need to play their race. Protoss, on the other hand, really doesn't have any new strategies to try, the race has become stagnant. | ||
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icarly
United States400 Posts
make charge 100/100 and reduce research time. Make warp gate research require twilight council. Reduce carrier build time. Reduce stalker attack damage vs armor, buff vs non armored. Make force fields attackable with hp. Reduce hallucination research time. Reduce speed and hp of Collosus. Make fungal growth a slow. Allow overlord speed research before lair. Make roaches 1.5 supply. Reduce size of ultralisk. Reduce burrow time of spine crawler. Increase speed of Hydralisk. there ya go, fixed the game. | ||
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ForeverSleep
Canada920 Posts
On September 02 2011 07:12 XXhkXX wrote: When Blizzard issued that patch they stated that they thought that Protoss had too much AOE at the moment. Collosus combined with insta-storm was killer on zerg armies which tend to group up, and with so much AOE and range dodging wouldn't help. When it came to the choice of which AOE option to nerf, Blizzard chose to take out the Amulet upgrade. Additionally, there are other differences between the infestor and the high templar. The main one being that high templar can be warped in at any location so long as there is a powerfield. Considering that a late-game toss can get up quite a few gateways, it was arguable that toss could also mass warp in 7 to 8 templar towards an end game. Plus toss still has collosus Also, I'm sure you'll be happy to find out that the infestor is in fact getting a nerf next patch, according to the PTR didn't the fungal nerf only actually affected the terran units but none of the protoss units? (could be wrong, but I remember reading a post saying that somewhere) | ||
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sharktopus.
United States456 Posts
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On September 05 2011 07:00 icarly wrote: replace helion with reaver. Replace Thor with goliath, allow building without an armory. Reduce build time of battlecruiser. Concussive shells 100/100, doubled build time. Stim 200/200. make charge 100/100 and reduce research time. Make warp gate research require twilight council. Reduce carrier build time. Reduce stalker attack damage vs armor, buff vs non armored. Make force fields attackable with hp. Reduce hallucination research time. Reduce speed and hp of Collosus. Make fungal growth a slow. Allow overlord speed research before lair. Make roaches 1.5 supply. Reduce size of ultralisk. Reduce burrow time of spine crawler. Increase speed of Hydralisk. there ya go, fixed the game. I would looooove playing around with reactored reavers, especially with how easy it is to to get medivacs | ||
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
On September 05 2011 08:08 sharktopus. wrote: icarly - literally nothing you said makes any sense in terms of balancing the game... Gonna have to disagree... icarly's suggestions were actually pretty damn good for the most part (well, minus the replace x unit with y unit stuff). The changes in units properties would have an effect on balance. | ||
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Nourek
Germany188 Posts
On September 05 2011 08:05 ForeverSleep wrote: didn't the fungal nerf only actually affected the terran units but none of the protoss units? (could be wrong, but I remember reading a post saying that somewhere) Sort of. It still takes 4 fungals to kill a Stalker for example, but now it takes 4 absolutely perfect fungals, instead of allowing for a bit of overlap. And especially vs Stalkers with Blink, you'll likely want a bit of overlap. Units will also be alive for a bit longer while being fungaled, so they do a bit more damage before dying. Colossus and Void Rays will take more fungals. You'll want Neural Parasite or Infested Terrans vs those usually as well. And NP is being buffed/fixed to include upgrades, so I'm not sure if the fungal nerf outweighs that. | ||
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