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On June 10 2013 01:36 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 01:13 Vanadiel wrote:
Skytoss is beatable by mass SH/viper/spore, that's true, however, it's boring as hell to be honest. T__T I dont think its beatable if it gets that long. Why dont protoss just go around the spores and kill all bases?
Because the maps where protoss can go SkyToss are the maps you can split in two, like Akilon Waste or Daybreak so you can control the different path with SH and static defense.
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On June 10 2013 01:40 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 01:36 Usernameffs wrote:On June 10 2013 01:13 Vanadiel wrote:
Skytoss is beatable by mass SH/viper/spore, that's true, however, it's boring as hell to be honest. T__T I dont think its beatable if it gets that long. Why dont protoss just go around the spores and kill all bases? Because the maps where protoss can go SkyToss are the maps you can split in two, like Akilon Waste or Daybreak so you can control the different path with SH and static defense.
Yes, but i mean fly on the side of the map. I know you can move spores but when i see a skytoss fight a zerg that splits the map like that, they always sits at the front line and try to win with tempest. And loose after like 30 min from that point. I have never even seen an protoss try to go around and snipe bases.
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On June 10 2013 01:44 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 01:40 Vanadiel wrote:On June 10 2013 01:36 Usernameffs wrote:On June 10 2013 01:13 Vanadiel wrote:
Skytoss is beatable by mass SH/viper/spore, that's true, however, it's boring as hell to be honest. T__T I dont think its beatable if it gets that long. Why dont protoss just go around the spores and kill all bases? Because the maps where protoss can go SkyToss are the maps you can split in two, like Akilon Waste or Daybreak so you can control the different path with SH and static defense. Yes, but i mean fly on the side of the map. I know you can move spores but when i see a skytoss fight a zerg that splits the map like that, they always sits at the front line and try to win with tempest. And loose after like 30 min from that point. I have never even seen an protoss try to go around and snipe bases.
Because Corruptor/Viper/Overseer is just as mobile or even more mobile than Skytoss, especially if it goes the long way around and leaves you with the short ways in the middle. If he is Tempestheavy, you can amove him with Corruptors. If he is Voidray heavy, it is not practically possible to zone the Corruptor/Viper/Overseer flock out with only Tempests. Because the few tempests will autoattack corruptors, and if you target fire them they will completly overkill a single Viper.
Then you pull 2-3Voidrays with your Vipers and kill them. If he chases you, you run into your spores. If he doesn't he just lost more value then you and repeat.
The only way to really zone those Vipers out with Protoss is Templar. That's where your locusts come into play, which push the Templar under the VRs, and then you still try and should be able to pull something out - though you may lose a viper or eat a storm. (and if you get Tempests you get the jackpot)
It's a micro battle, abduct and swarm hosts repositioning against feedback/storm and templarmovement.
+ Show Spoiler +An interesting thought: Carriers! Why? Because of the Carrierbuff in HotS!
First of, Carriers are better at killing locusts than Voidrays, which gives your templar more room.
Second of, if you unleash the interceptors on the locusts, you can immidiatly targetswitch on the vipers and attack them from up to 14range instead of the feedbacks 9range!
(but admittedly, it is quite hard to pull off, due to the weird interceptor behavior, where you can never be sure whether they stay out or go back in)
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On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 20:28 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 18:01 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 06:43 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 06:34 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 06:17 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 03:49 Doublemint wrote:
[quote]
What I don't get is that they get the best out of all worlds, only 100 mins, being bio with high hp that can be healed AND do such good amount of damage against even armored units. They do ok vs roaches, stalkers and even tanks in comparison to a hellion which costs the same but is not nearly as sturdy.
Obviously he was talking about TvT all this time. Roaches and Stalkers are not armored like Tanks so the goal to emphasize the point even more failed - oh wait. don't forget, you can kite hellbats with roaches and stalkers. You can do it all game long - because they won't die to roach/stalker dps.  I guess 6 or 8 gates all in must mean spam zealots and sentries. So far of all the games I have seen hellbat is only useful in TvT. Come back if it becomes an important part of TvP and TvZ exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. Fact is hellbat does not have a role in high level TvZ and TvP atm outside of semi all-in. Maybe few months from now meta will change but so far those complaining about it needs to l2p. Are you dumb, hellbat is the best unit in the game by far for the cost. marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good.
marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game.
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On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 20:28 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 18:01 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 06:43 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 06:34 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 06:17 Bagi wrote:
[quote]
Obviously he was talking about TvT all this time. Roaches and Stalkers are not armored like Tanks so the goal to emphasize the point even more failed - oh wait. don't forget, you can kite hellbats with roaches and stalkers. You can do it all game long - because they won't die to roach/stalker dps. I guess 6 or 8 gates all in must mean spam zealots and sentries. So far of all the games I have seen hellbat is only useful in TvT. Come back if it becomes an important part of TvP and TvZ exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. Fact is hellbat does not have a role in high level TvZ and TvP atm outside of semi all-in. Maybe few months from now meta will change but so far those complaining about it needs to l2p. Are you dumb, hellbat is the best unit in the game by far for the cost. marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game.
As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp.
The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it.
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On June 10 2013 02:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 01:44 Usernameffs wrote:On June 10 2013 01:40 Vanadiel wrote:On June 10 2013 01:36 Usernameffs wrote:On June 10 2013 01:13 Vanadiel wrote:
Skytoss is beatable by mass SH/viper/spore, that's true, however, it's boring as hell to be honest. T__T I dont think its beatable if it gets that long. Why dont protoss just go around the spores and kill all bases? Because the maps where protoss can go SkyToss are the maps you can split in two, like Akilon Waste or Daybreak so you can control the different path with SH and static defense. Yes, but i mean fly on the side of the map. I know you can move spores but when i see a skytoss fight a zerg that splits the map like that, they always sits at the front line and try to win with tempest. And loose after like 30 min from that point. I have never even seen an protoss try to go around and snipe bases. Because Corruptor/Viper/Overseer is just as mobile or even more mobile than Skytoss, especially if it goes the long way around and leaves you with the short ways in the middle. If he is Tempestheavy, you can amove him with Corruptors. If he is Voidray heavy, it is not practically possible to zone the Corruptor/Viper/Overseer flock out with only Tempests. Because the few tempests will autoattack corruptors, and if you target fire them they will completly overkill a single Viper. Then you pull 2-3Voidrays with your Vipers and kill them. If he chases you, you run into your spores. If he doesn't he just lost more value then you and repeat. The only way to really zone those Vipers out with Protoss is Templar. That's where your locusts come into play, which push the Templar under the VRs, and then you still try and should be able to pull something out - though you may lose a viper or eat a storm. (and if you get Tempests you get the jackpot) It's a micro battle, abduct and swarm hosts repositioning against feedback/storm and templarmovement. + Show Spoiler +An interesting thought: Carriers! Why? Because of the Carrierbuff in HotS!
First of, Carriers are better at killing locusts than Voidrays, which gives your templar more room.
Second of, if you unleash the interceptors on the locusts, you can immidiatly targetswitch on the vipers and attack them from up to 14range instead of the feedbacks 9range!
(but admittedly, it is quite hard to pull off, due to the weird interceptor behavior, where you can never be sure whether they stay out or go back in)
One way to get around the Vipers could be to use hallucinated Void Rays as a sort of "chance to abduct a useless unit", but the window for that is usually 1 minute and you also need to kill any Overseer to make it worthwile. With this kind of tactic you *could* possibly go around the front line (out of range of any "Storm cover fire" which you usually need), but since the Void Rays are relatively slow (with the exception of an MSC recall) the Zerg could just barrel down the other side of the map with everything he has. Nydus and / or reproduction could really give them the edge as mobility is the key to victory again.
I too feel that Carriers are an unexplored option since they have pretty high damage output and fire more consistently than Tempests. They also have their increased leash range of 14, but I would still want to protect them with a real Mothership and some Overseer killing units (VR, Phoenix, HT). The really annoying part about Carriers is that they are useless if the Interceptors get killed (Fungal + Hydras) it takes an age to rebuild them. The idea to "chaintargetswitch" through the Zerg units until the Interceptors kill the Vipers is actually brilliant.
Any serious Skytoss business will cost a huge amount of resources and you could try a sneak attack with a HUGE amount of DTs warped in directly into the opponents base (if your Warp Prism can not get into a good spot the front will be guarded too well against DTs) instead of Skytoss. With their damage output they could simply snipe important tech before the opponent can react properly and building a HUGE amount will make sure you can overpower any small force sent to clear them out. I havent seen anyone go for a really big number of DTs yet and the "one per mineral line" way of using them seems kinda half-hearted. Why not bring "overwhelming force" instead to deal serious damage very quickly? To defend you probably need a good SimCity and quite a few cannons plus Zealots.
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On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 20:28 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 18:01 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 06:43 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 06:34 Doublemint wrote:
[quote]
Roaches and Stalkers are not armored like Tanks so the goal to emphasize the point even more failed - oh wait.
don't forget, you can kite hellbats with roaches and stalkers. You can do it all game long - because they won't die to roach/stalker dps. I guess 6 or 8 gates all in must mean spam zealots and sentries. So far of all the games I have seen hellbat is only useful in TvT. Come back if it becomes an important part of TvP and TvZ exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. Fact is hellbat does not have a role in high level TvZ and TvP atm outside of semi all-in. Maybe few months from now meta will change but so far those complaining about it needs to l2p. Are you dumb, hellbat is the best unit in the game by far for the cost. marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it.
speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens.
Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you
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On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 20:28 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 18:01 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 06:43 Big J wrote:[quote] don't forget, you can kite hellbats with roaches and stalkers. You can do it all game long - because they won't die to roach/stalker dps. I guess 6 or 8 gates all in must mean spam zealots and sentries. So far of all the games I have seen hellbat is only useful in TvT. Come back if it becomes an important part of TvP and TvZ exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. Fact is hellbat does not have a role in high level TvZ and TvP atm outside of semi all-in. Maybe few months from now meta will change but so far those complaining about it needs to l2p. Are you dumb, hellbat is the best unit in the game by far for the cost. marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you
Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players.
Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat).
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them.
I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something.
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On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them.
Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability?
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On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability?
Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes.
Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in.
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On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 20:28 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 18:01 iky43210 wrote:
[quote]
I guess 6 or 8 gates all in must mean spam zealots and sentries.
So far of all the games I have seen hellbat is only useful in TvT. Come back if it becomes an important part of TvP and TvZ exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. Fact is hellbat does not have a role in high level TvZ and TvP atm outside of semi all-in. Maybe few months from now meta will change but so far those complaining about it needs to l2p. Are you dumb, hellbat is the best unit in the game by far for the cost. marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something.
because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech
Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? different race are different.
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On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in.
What happens when you "just" pick them up and move them over the running Probes is that Hellbats auto-attack the Nexus (or whichever closer target is firing at them), so by the time you have issued the attack order after landing them most Probes are still fleeing out of range. Banelings can catch up workers to some extent, not Hellbats once Afterburners is over, and you use Afterburners first to land in the mineral line (where a Cannon or units should be awaiting you, triggering the auto-focus from Hellbats and forcing active micro if you want to kill Probes), so your hypothetic scenario doesn't work like that in reality.
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On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 20:28 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:
[quote]
exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. Fact is hellbat does not have a role in high level TvZ and TvP atm outside of semi all-in. Maybe few months from now meta will change but so far those complaining about it needs to l2p. Are you dumb, hellbat is the best unit in the game by far for the cost. marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price?
On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning.
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On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in.
Then split your workers like what every race that faces Banelings has to do to take minimal damage. Not only are Hellbats super slow, as long as the medivacs are dead, your workers can always outrun a Hellbat
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On June 10 2013 07:11 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in. What happens when you "just" pick them up and move them over the running Probes is that Hellbats auto-attack the Nexus (or whichever closer target is firing at them), so by the time you have issued the attack order after landing them most Probes are still fleeing out of range. Banelings can catch up workers to some extent, not Hellbats once Afterburners is over, and you use Afterburners first to land in the mineral line (where a Cannon or units should be awaiting you, triggering the auto-focus from Hellbats and forcing active micro if you want to kill Probes), so your hypothetic scenario doesn't work like that in reality.
Yeah hypotheses never work perfectly, but defending a Hellbat drop is much harder than pulling it off, so there would usually be chances to get those few game-changing hits off unless the opponent is expecting you to attack there.
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On June 10 2013 07:13 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in. Then split your workers like what every race that faces Banelings has to do to take minimal damage. Not only are Hellbats super slow, as long as the medivacs are dead, your workers can always outrun a Hellbat
And yes that is the best solution. But if even the best pro players in the world can't do this in time, there may be something wrong with the effectiveness. (MVP ending up with 9 SCVs for example)
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On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 20:28 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote:
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but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage.
Fact is hellbat does not have a role in high level TvZ and TvP atm outside of semi all-in. Maybe few months from now meta will change but so far those complaining about it needs to l2p. Are you dumb, hellbat is the best unit in the game by far for the cost. marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning.
Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem.
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On June 10 2013 07:15 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:13 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in. Then split your workers like what every race that faces Banelings has to do to take minimal damage. Not only are Hellbats super slow, as long as the medivacs are dead, your workers can always outrun a Hellbat And yes that is the best solution. But if even the best pro players in the world can't do this in time, there may be something wrong with the effectiveness. (MVP ending up with 9 SCVs for example)
Did you even watch the games? MVP ending up with 9 SCVs in Game 2 and Game 5 was either a result of MVP losing to a Marine/Hellion elevator (game 2), or in game 5, literally running SCVs into Hellbats. He never tried to split for whatever reason. You're not facing Innovation, and I doubt anyone you face will have Hellbat drops that effective. You don't need to worry about it.
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On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 20:28 Usernameffs wrote:
[quote]
Are you dumb, hellbat is the best unit in the game by far for the cost. marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem.
Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well.
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On June 10 2013 07:13 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:11 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in. What happens when you "just" pick them up and move them over the running Probes is that Hellbats auto-attack the Nexus (or whichever closer target is firing at them), so by the time you have issued the attack order after landing them most Probes are still fleeing out of range. Banelings can catch up workers to some extent, not Hellbats once Afterburners is over, and you use Afterburners first to land in the mineral line (where a Cannon or units should be awaiting you, triggering the auto-focus from Hellbats and forcing active micro if you want to kill Probes), so your hypothetic scenario doesn't work like that in reality. Yeah hypotheses never work perfectly, but defending a Hellbat drop is much harder than pulling it off, so there would usually be chances to get those few game-changing hits off unless the opponent is expecting you to attack there.
No, defending a Hellbat drop in PvT is trivial with Observers to see them coming from afar, Cannon in mineral line + PO to quickly dispose of the Medivac and warp-ins to help if you're somehow out of position (warp-ins can even block Hellbats' path to prevent them from reaching Probes). Not to mention Phoenixes can completely block Hellbats if you opened Stargate.
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EPT
