Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 522

On June 10 2013 01:36 Usernameffs wrote:

I dont think its beatable if it gets that long. Why dont protoss just go around the spores and kill all bases?

On June 10 2013 01:40 Vanadiel wrote:



Because the maps where protoss can go SkyToss are the maps you can split in two, like Akilon Waste or Daybreak so you can control the different path with SH and static defense.

On June 10 2013 01:44 Usernameffs wrote:

Yes, but i mean fly on the side of the map. I know you can move spores but when i see a skytoss fight a zerg that splits the map like that, they always sits at the front line and try to win with tempest. And loose after like 30 min from that point. I have never even seen an protoss try to go around and snipe bases.

On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:

Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good.

On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:

marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game.

On June 10 2013 02:20 Big J wrote:


Because Corruptor/Viper/Overseer is just as mobile or even more mobile than Skytoss, especially if it goes the long way around and leaves you with the short ways in the middle. If he is Tempestheavy, you can amove him with Corruptors. If he is Voidray heavy, it is not practically possible to zone the Corruptor/Viper/Overseer flock out with only Tempests. Because the few tempests will autoattack corruptors, and if you target fire them they will completly overkill a single Viper.
Then you pull 2-3Voidrays with your Vipers and kill them. If he chases you, you run into your spores. If he doesn't he just lost more value then you and repeat.
The only way to really zone those Vipers out with Protoss is Templar. That's where your locusts come into play, which push the Templar under the VRs, and then you still try and should be able to pull something out - though you may lose a viper or eat a storm. (and if you get Tempests you get the jackpot)
It's a micro battle, abduct and swarm hosts repositioning against feedback/storm and templarmovement.

+ Show Spoiler +

On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:


As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp.

The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it.

On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:

speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens.

Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you

On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them.

On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:

Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability?

On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:

Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players.

Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat).

And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them.

I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something.

On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:

Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes.

Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in.

On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:

because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech

Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price?

On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:

Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes.

Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in.

On June 10 2013 07:11 TheDwf wrote:

What happens when you "just" pick them up and move them over the running Probes is that Hellbats auto-attack the Nexus (or whichever closer target is firing at them), so by the time you have issued the attack order after landing them most Probes are still fleeing out of range. Banelings can catch up workers to some extent, not Hellbats once Afterburners is over, and you use Afterburners first to land in the mineral line (where a Cannon or units should be awaiting you, triggering the auto-focus from Hellbats and forcing active micro if you want to kill Probes), so your hypothetic scenario doesn't work like that in reality.

On June 10 2013 07:13 Chaggi wrote:


Then split your workers like what every race that faces Banelings has to do to take minimal damage. Not only are Hellbats super slow, as long as the medivacs are dead, your workers can always outrun a Hellbat

On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:

On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning.

On June 10 2013 07:15 Fig wrote:

And yes that is the best solution. But if even the best pro players in the world can't do this in time, there may be something wrong with the effectiveness. (MVP ending up with 9 SCVs for example)

On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:


Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem.

On June 10 2013 07:13 Fig wrote:

Yeah hypotheses never work perfectly, but defending a Hellbat drop is much harder than pulling it off, so there would usually be chances to get those few game-changing hits off unless the opponent is expecting you to attack there.