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On June 10 2013 07:17 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:15 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:13 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in. Then split your workers like what every race that faces Banelings has to do to take minimal damage. Not only are Hellbats super slow, as long as the medivacs are dead, your workers can always outrun a Hellbat And yes that is the best solution. But if even the best pro players in the world can't do this in time, there may be something wrong with the effectiveness. (MVP ending up with 9 SCVs for example) Did you even watch the games? MVP ending up with 9 SCVs in Game 2 and Game 5 was either a result of MVP losing to a Marine/Hellion elevator (game 2), or in game 5, literally running SCVs into Hellbats. He never tried to split for whatever reason. You're not facing Innovation, and I doubt anyone you face will have Hellbat drops that effective. You don't need to worry about it.
You can't use the "you're not going to be facing a pro" reasoning here.
First of all, that logic is flawed from the start because I myself am not at the skill level of a pro either, so both the drop effectiveness and my defense of the drop will be at a lower, but still equal, level.
Second I already mentioned I don't care about what happens at my skill level. I care about the game as a spectator. And if the best pro players have that much trouble with such low cost Hellbat drops, then that is worrisome to me wanting to see interesting games.
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On June 10 2013 07:20 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:On June 09 2013 20:29 Magbane wrote:
[quote]
marine Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem. Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well.
It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing
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On June 10 2013 07:20 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:13 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in. What happens when you "just" pick them up and move them over the running Probes is that Hellbats auto-attack the Nexus (or whichever closer target is firing at them), so by the time you have issued the attack order after landing them most Probes are still fleeing out of range. Banelings can catch up workers to some extent, not Hellbats once Afterburners is over, and you use Afterburners first to land in the mineral line (where a Cannon or units should be awaiting you, triggering the auto-focus from Hellbats and forcing active micro if you want to kill Probes), so your hypothetic scenario doesn't work like that in reality. Yeah hypotheses never work perfectly, but defending a Hellbat drop is much harder than pulling it off, so there would usually be chances to get those few game-changing hits off unless the opponent is expecting you to attack there. No, defending a Hellbat drop in PvT is trivial with Observers to see them coming from afar, Cannon in mineral line + PO to quickly dispose of the Medivac and warp-ins to help if you're somehow out of position (warp-ins can even block Hellbats' path to prevent them from reaching Probes). Not to mention Phoenixes can completely block Hellbats if you opened Stargate.
Well I think "trivial" is a little much. Contrary to popular belief, protoss is not as easy as it seems at the pro level, which is what we are talking about here.
But I would like to agree that I think Stargate openings have interesting potential, with Oracles to pin terran in the base and Phoenixes to shut down drops. I've been thinking about it a lot, and one WCS game even began that way, making it look promising before the toss lost. So it's still yet to be seen whether Stargate can be a stable opening in PvT. I'm hoping someone figures it out because it's very fun to watch.
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On June 10 2013 07:25 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:17 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:15 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:13 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in. Then split your workers like what every race that faces Banelings has to do to take minimal damage. Not only are Hellbats super slow, as long as the medivacs are dead, your workers can always outrun a Hellbat And yes that is the best solution. But if even the best pro players in the world can't do this in time, there may be something wrong with the effectiveness. (MVP ending up with 9 SCVs for example) Did you even watch the games? MVP ending up with 9 SCVs in Game 2 and Game 5 was either a result of MVP losing to a Marine/Hellion elevator (game 2), or in game 5, literally running SCVs into Hellbats. He never tried to split for whatever reason. You're not facing Innovation, and I doubt anyone you face will have Hellbat drops that effective. You don't need to worry about it. You can't use the "you're not going to be facing a pro" reasoning here. First of all, that logic is flawed from the start because I myself am not at the skill level of a pro either, so both the drop effectiveness and my defense of the drop will be at a lower, but still equal, level. Second I already mentioned I don't care about what happens at my skill level. I care about the game as a spectator. And if the best pro players have that much trouble with such low cost Hellbat drops, then that is worrisome to me wanting to see interesting games.
The point of that was not to point out your weakness per say, but to point out that defending a Hellbat drop, while annoying as hell, doesn't require pro mechanics or skills to defend. It honestly is very easy past a certain point in the game for TvT, and a bit less greedy play from Protoss and Zerg. People just need to understand how it works
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On June 10 2013 07:29 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:20 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:
[quote]
Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem. Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well. It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing
True, it could turn out to just make Protosses much more adept at defending, which I would welcome as well. But I wouldn't want it to make the game too passive with a toss just hunkering down to defend everything till lategame.
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On June 10 2013 07:31 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:25 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:17 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:15 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:13 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:05 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. Exactly why are Probes stationary in your described scenario? Do Hellbats have a passive AoE rooting ability? Well considering Medivacs move faster than probes, you shouldn't be missing with your Hellbats. Just pick em up and move em over the running probes. Banelings don't have a passive AoE rooting ability either, but they can still cause massive damage if they get a few hits in. Then split your workers like what every race that faces Banelings has to do to take minimal damage. Not only are Hellbats super slow, as long as the medivacs are dead, your workers can always outrun a Hellbat And yes that is the best solution. But if even the best pro players in the world can't do this in time, there may be something wrong with the effectiveness. (MVP ending up with 9 SCVs for example) Did you even watch the games? MVP ending up with 9 SCVs in Game 2 and Game 5 was either a result of MVP losing to a Marine/Hellion elevator (game 2), or in game 5, literally running SCVs into Hellbats. He never tried to split for whatever reason. You're not facing Innovation, and I doubt anyone you face will have Hellbat drops that effective. You don't need to worry about it. You can't use the "you're not going to be facing a pro" reasoning here. First of all, that logic is flawed from the start because I myself am not at the skill level of a pro either, so both the drop effectiveness and my defense of the drop will be at a lower, but still equal, level. Second I already mentioned I don't care about what happens at my skill level. I care about the game as a spectator. And if the best pro players have that much trouble with such low cost Hellbat drops, then that is worrisome to me wanting to see interesting games. The point of that was not to point out your weakness per say, but to point out that defending a Hellbat drop, while annoying as hell, doesn't require pro mechanics or skills to defend. It honestly is very easy past a certain point in the game for TvT, and a bit less greedy play from Protoss and Zerg. People just need to understand how it works
Ok I see what you mean. And I agree =)
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On June 10 2013 07:32 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:29 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:20 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:
[quote]
marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem. Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well. It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing True, it could turn out to just make Protosses much more adept at defending, which I would welcome as well. But I wouldn't want it to make the game too passive with a toss just hunkering down to defend everything till lategame.
I really wish that Protoss were more aggressive with WP play, especially in the mid game where a WP w/ DT's could absolutely wreck a production line. Now that the tech isn't too expensive, I think Protoss players are just too used to the traditional ways of playing defensive and breaking out (flow of the game).
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On June 10 2013 07:34 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:32 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:29 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:20 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:
[quote]
As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp.
The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem. Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well. It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing True, it could turn out to just make Protosses much more adept at defending, which I would welcome as well. But I wouldn't want it to make the game too passive with a toss just hunkering down to defend everything till lategame. I really wish that Protoss were more aggressive with WP play, especially in the mid game where a WP w/ DT's could absolutely wreck a production line. Now that the tech isn't too expensive, I think Protoss players are just too used to the traditional ways of playing defensive and breaking out (flow of the game).
Haha, well maybe they are waiting for Blizzard to go through with that speed buff for the WP before they all reveal their plans.
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Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it.
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On June 10 2013 07:30 Fig wrote:
Well I think "trivial" is a little much. Contrary to popular belief, protoss is not as easy as it seems at the pro level, which is what we are talking about here.
Well, just watch + Show Spoiler [WCS global finals] +Bogus vs sOs, Whirlwind, from the WCS global finals series. He lost like only 6 Probes to 4 different Hellbats drops attempts.
But I would like to agree that I think Stargate openings have interesting potential, with Oracles to pin terran in the base and Phoenixes to shut down drops. I've been thinking about it a lot, and one WCS game even began that way, making it look promising before the toss lost. So it's still yet to be seen whether Stargate can be a stable opening in PvT. I'm hoping someone figures it out because it's very fun to watch.
Stargate openings are quite common in PvT. People like sOs, Rain, Sage, Creator use them (some from time to time, some more frequently). NaNiwa and MaNa used them too on some of my ladder games against them. Even if your Oracle is shut down by Turrets, well first you forced Turrets and you can still be annoying outside of Turrets' range, second you can salvage it by using Revelation on the Medivac push and being active on the map to spot Terran's army, third it virtually forces Terran to make his third inbase (while he would prefer to build on the spot). It also provides detection and can deal lot of damage if Terran doesn't have defence for some reason.
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On June 10 2013 07:34 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:32 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:29 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:20 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:
[quote]
As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp.
The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem. Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well. It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing True, it could turn out to just make Protosses much more adept at defending, which I would welcome as well. But I wouldn't want it to make the game too passive with a toss just hunkering down to defend everything till lategame. I really wish that Protoss were more aggressive with WP play, especially in the mid game where a WP w/ DT's could absolutely wreck a production line. Now that the tech isn't too expensive, I think Protoss players are just too used to the traditional ways of playing defensive and breaking out (flow of the game).
It's just not that rewarding. There's nothing you can really stuff into a Warp Prism that screams danger. The best scenario is usually 2 Templars but I can't remember the last time a major game hinged on a Storm Drop, and when it was attempted, it was 3-5 workers killed, because it requires the worker to sit in Storm for quite awhile. Blow 150-300 gas for that level of kill? Or blow 100-200 minerals as a Helbat for that level of kill? And it still can fight afterward. Zealots are okay at killing structures, but no more or less than any other basic unit in the game, which isn't saying much.
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On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote:
Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it.
Simple ... such a change affects more than just Mutalisks ... and that is bad, because then you have to change Corruptors, Broodlords, Overseers as well. Hydralisks are only bad against Mutalisks because the Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. Neither of the speed buffs are good and they should all be removed ... but then the Blizzard devs would look stupid, because the Medivac boost is one of the goodies Terrans got in HotS. So they need to introduce stupid "specific damage boosts" to fix the problem they created ...
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On June 10 2013 12:26 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote:
Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it. Simple ... such a change affects more than just Mutalisks ... and that is bad, because then you have to change Corruptors, Broodlords, Overseers as well. Hydralisks are only bad against Mutalisks because the Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. Neither of the speed buffs are good and they should all be removed ... but then the Blizzard devs would look stupid, because the Medivac boost is one of the goodies Terrans got in HotS. So they need to introduce stupid "specific damage boosts" to fix the problem they created ...
it's not all this complicated.
There is no Biological Air armor type, increasing hydralisk damage against bio would mean it will be buff'd against every single kind of biological unit
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On June 10 2013 13:33 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 12:26 Rabiator wrote:On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote:
Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it. Simple ... such a change affects more than just Mutalisks ... and that is bad, because then you have to change Corruptors, Broodlords, Overseers as well. Hydralisks are only bad against Mutalisks because the Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. Neither of the speed buffs are good and they should all be removed ... but then the Blizzard devs would look stupid, because the Medivac boost is one of the goodies Terrans got in HotS. So they need to introduce stupid "specific damage boosts" to fix the problem they created ... it's not all this complicated. There is no Biological Air armor type, increasing hydralisk damage against bio would mean it will be buff'd against every single kind of biological unit
Obviously they would have to split up the Hydralisk attack into an air one and a ground one, but - as I failed to mention - it would be a terrible terrible change to the game, but at least it would be consistent with the other stupid balance changes (to save their faces).
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On June 10 2013 09:18 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:34 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:32 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:29 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:20 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:
[quote]
speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens.
Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem. Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well. It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing True, it could turn out to just make Protosses much more adept at defending, which I would welcome as well. But I wouldn't want it to make the game too passive with a toss just hunkering down to defend everything till lategame. I really wish that Protoss were more aggressive with WP play, especially in the mid game where a WP w/ DT's could absolutely wreck a production line. Now that the tech isn't too expensive, I think Protoss players are just too used to the traditional ways of playing defensive and breaking out (flow of the game). It's just not that rewarding. There's nothing you can really stuff into a Warp Prism that screams danger. The best scenario is usually 2 Templars but I can't remember the last time a major game hinged on a Storm Drop, and when it was attempted, it was 3-5 workers killed, because it requires the worker to sit in Storm for quite awhile. Blow 150-300 gas for that level of kill? Or blow 100-200 minerals as a Helbat for that level of kill? And it still can fight afterward. Zealots are okay at killing structures, but no more or less than any other basic unit in the game, which isn't saying much.
Or drop 2 DT's into production line, 2 DT's split between 3rd/4th/natural and once my entire army has moved out of position, go in and crush a base easily
Terrans have to handle it somehow or just all in, it's the same idea if a Terran drops when Toss is at 200/200 and Terran does multipronged drops and aggression.
Except we don't have a Nexus cannon or cannons that cost no supply
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My only issue with hellbats isn't their balance, it's how goddamn boring they are. I just neither like watching or playing hellbat vs. hellbat. It's like how PvP was in Wings. War of the worlds every game. I have no honest opinion how you fix them without fucking up every other matchup, but I grow tired of them in TvT.
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On June 10 2013 09:18 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:34 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:32 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:29 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:20 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:
[quote]
speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens.
Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem. Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well. It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing True, it could turn out to just make Protosses much more adept at defending, which I would welcome as well. But I wouldn't want it to make the game too passive with a toss just hunkering down to defend everything till lategame. I really wish that Protoss were more aggressive with WP play, especially in the mid game where a WP w/ DT's could absolutely wreck a production line. Now that the tech isn't too expensive, I think Protoss players are just too used to the traditional ways of playing defensive and breaking out (flow of the game). It's just not that rewarding. There's nothing you can really stuff into a Warp Prism that screams danger.
4 sentries. Or 2 sentries + immortal. That will be really much more dangerous with warp prism speed boost (it might even be too dangerous). Considering next it switches to its other mode, and starts warping in units.
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On June 10 2013 07:29 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:20 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:16 Chaggi wrote:On June 10 2013 07:11 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 07:07 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote:On June 10 2013 06:19 iky43210 wrote:On June 10 2013 05:30 sibs wrote:On June 10 2013 04:56 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 20:34 Usernameffs wrote:
[quote]
Hellbat 100 minerals, marines are good but not that good. marines is still used just about 90% of the time in TvP and TvZ through all phase of the game, while we're lucky to see 15% usage for hellbats in those matchup, and they are only used as a temporary harass mid game. As terran's get more used to hellbats they'll start using them more and more, we've seen incredibly abusive styles from MVP and Innovation with hellbats, they will surely going to be getting more use, since they already get far more use than 15% from inno/mvp. The unit is simply too good IMO, when your 0/0 mineral unit can wreck the other 2 races 3/3 mineral units on actual combat its a little bit silly to not use it. speculation is not useful for discussions, and thus far hellbat are made in minimal qualities and most often none in TvZ and TvP. Stalkers and planetary nexus are plenty enough to defend hellbat drops, and so are queens. Right now hellbats are mostly treated like reapers or banshees in TvZ and TvP. Harass units to control ppl from playing too greedy. Honestly the only reason hellbat should be nerfed is for TvT. Any other matchup the problem lies with you Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players. Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat). And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them. I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something. because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price? On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning. Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem. Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well. It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing
1 Tournament?...
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On June 10 2013 12:26 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote:
Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it. Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. ...
They had their speed increased because they wanted to see more mutalisk play and harass
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About the hellbat drop discussion, no one has talked about the mineral mining lost when workers are pulled, i have not
done any calculation
What this mean is the one doing the hellbat drop, its very unlikely he "lose" on it, he usually "gain", sounds very unfair to me
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On June 10 2013 18:46 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 12:26 Rabiator wrote:On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote:
Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it. Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. ... About the hellbat drop discussion, no one has talked about the mineral mining lost when workers are pulled, i have not done any calculation What this mean is the one doing the hellbat drop, its very unlikely he "lose" on it, he usually "gain", sounds very unfair to me
90% of every hellbat discussion is about that. Let me summarise the answer:
1. Early game hellbat drops there is a good chance you have to pull workers. But you cannot say that if the medivac gets away he only lost 200 minerals: He got early gas, he got a quick armory, etc. His build was optimized for fast hellbat drops, that means he has less income than if he went for a pure macro opening.
2. Later in the game you shouldn't need to pull your workers often.
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EPT
