On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote: Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it.
Simple ... such a change affects more than just Mutalisks ... and that is bad, because then you have to change Corruptors, Broodlords, Overseers as well. Hydralisks are only bad against Mutalisks because the Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. Neither of the speed buffs are good and they should all be removed ... but then the Blizzard devs would look stupid, because the Medivac boost is one of the goodies Terrans got in HotS. So they need to introduce stupid "specific damage boosts" to fix the problem they created ...
it's not all this complicated. There is no Biological Air armor type, increasing hydralisk damage against bio would mean it will be buff'd against every single kind of biological unit
You can make their Anti Air attack attack up to two targets at the same time It will melt Mutas but won't affect single Medivac drops.
On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote: Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it.
Simple ... such a change affects more than just Mutalisks ... and that is bad, because then you have to change Corruptors, Broodlords, Overseers as well. Hydralisks are only bad against Mutalisks because the Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. Neither of the speed buffs are good and they should all be removed ... but then the Blizzard devs would look stupid, because the Medivac boost is one of the goodies Terrans got in HotS. So they need to introduce stupid "specific damage boosts" to fix the problem they created ...
it's not all this complicated. There is no Biological Air armor type, increasing hydralisk damage against bio would mean it will be buff'd against every single kind of biological unit
You can make their Anti Air attack attack up to two targets at the same time It will melt Mutas but won't affect single Medivac drops.
that would be so fun. Roach/Hydra would suddenly rape bio, as you'd just destroy all the medivacs ezpz in every combat if you targetfire air with hydras (+100% damage output if properly used). Same goes for Skytoss or anyform of Terran airplay. And yeah, Hydras running up to Colossi and just destroying them would also be pretty fun ^^
On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote: Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it.
Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. ...
They had their speed increased because they wanted to see more mutalisk play and harass
"Solving" one problem by creating another is a bad way to go about business and the smart thing to do would be to go back one step and try a different path.
WOL Mutalisks were bad because they have roughly the same stats as in BW, but there is a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher concentration of ground units able to fire up and Hydralisks - which dealt explosive damage (50% damage against small units like Mutalisks) in BW - now deal the same high amount of damage against everything. In addition to this you can stack them up really easily (compared to BW) and you also have the lockdown of Fungal Growth.
Since the ground unit density is the reason for many many problems in SC2 the smart choice would be to finally start tackling that one ... add forced unit spreading while moving and limit the unit selection to the traditional 12. + Show Spoiler +
In case any idiot tries the "but technology has advanced and we are too lazy to work with 12 units per control group" reply you should know that formations and customizable unit behaviour should be doable as well ... and yet the game doesnt have it. BW and WCIII worked really well with a limit of 12 units and some restraints are NECESSARY for the gameplay.
And since marine splitting made banelings less effective than supposed, blizzard now decided to introduce that during fights your screen is black 50% of the time, to discourage marine splitting...
Both are very effective methods to make SC2 die really fast (so they both will never happen).
On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote: Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it.
Simple ... such a change affects more than just Mutalisks ... and that is bad, because then you have to change Corruptors, Broodlords, Overseers as well. Hydralisks are only bad against Mutalisks because the Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. Neither of the speed buffs are good and they should all be removed ... but then the Blizzard devs would look stupid, because the Medivac boost is one of the goodies Terrans got in HotS. So they need to introduce stupid "specific damage boosts" to fix the problem they created ...
it's not all this complicated. There is no Biological Air armor type, increasing hydralisk damage against bio would mean it will be buff'd against every single kind of biological unit
You can make their Anti Air attack attack up to two targets at the same time It will melt Mutas but won't affect single Medivac drops.
that would be so fun. Roach/Hydra would suddenly rape bio, as you'd just destroy all the medivacs ezpz in every combat if you targetfire air with hydras (+100% damage output if properly used). Same goes for Skytoss or anyform of Terran airplay. And yeah, Hydras running up to Colossi and just destroying them would also be pretty fun ^^
With proper army positioning it wouldn't help against Colossus at all. Also I don't think that in roach hydra composition hydras are that often in range to hit medivacs. But clumping air units like Phoenixes and Mutas would be scared to death
On June 10 2013 07:47 learning88 wrote: Just wondering, so the spore crawler change to make it do 45 to biological air was changed a while ago. Why hasn't been any ideas to give that to the hydralisk? Like to do more damage to biological air units since people complain about spores make it more turtley. Not saying they should implement this but I'm just wondering why people haven't suggested it.
Mutalisks are so damn fast and can evade any ground based AA fire easily; they had their speed increased to 4 after all to "compensate" for the Medivac speed boost. ...
They had their speed increased because they wanted to see more mutalisk play and harass
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About the hellbat drop discussion, no one has talked about the mineral mining lost when workers are pulled, i have not done any calculation
What this mean is the one doing the hellbat drop, its very unlikely he "lose" on it, he usually "gain", sounds very unfair to me
Quick calculation: Approximately, 40 [mineral / worker minute] So, if 16 mineral workers are pulled for 10 sec, the player loses 40*16/6=107 mineral
For gas, 40*6/6= 40 gas
It takes a few seconds to manually reassign 3 workers to each gas, and for mineral workers to spread evenly for optimal mining, so 10 blizzard seconds sounds about right to me. I don't know whether this is fair amount of lost mining or not, though.
Didn't read all those 500+ pages but too often saw win quotas linked, never in context though.
A 50% split in a matchup is only an indicator of balance if the two races in question have equal representation in the highest league. If - hypothetical numbers - a 32 player league considered to have the highest skill players has 19 players using race A, 10 players using race B and 3 players using race A, a 50/50 between races A and C would only serve to manifest the existing imbalance.
On June 10 2013 06:59 Fig wrote: [quote] Hellbats were just shown to be far and away the best harass terran has, as evidenced by a TvT between arguably the two best terran players.
Why would terrans not switch to using Hellbats for their harass in other matchups too? 8 Marines or some kind of marine/marauder mix are both much less effective than something that costs half as much. Hellbats, without being healed, take 7 shots from the nexus cannon to die. Effectively 9 seconds, for each Hellbat. You know the poor DPS of Stalkers already (20 seconds for one to kill a Hellbat).
And you do know that each Hellbat shot is nearly the damage equivalent of a Baneling detonation right? That's a lot of Baneling hits before they die. If you think Stalkers and the nexus cannon are going to prevent a hellbat drop from being cost efficient, you severely underestimate them.
I don't care about the balance at my level, but I'm not going to be surprised when Hellbats become so prevalent in any pro terran game that Blizzard has to do something.
because in other matchups mech don't work so your hellbats eventually fade into not being so useful (no upgrades), while in TvT you continue on with mech
Did you know marines do 1.5 times the dps of roaches while only cost 1/2 the price?
On the contrary. As you might have seen from the Finals yesterday, Innovation starting adding in Hellbats after the 10 minute mark. Rather than fading, Hellbat use was growing brighter (get it?). And because they don't get upgrades, it makes sense to use them earlier when they are facing unupgraded units on the other side. That is my reasoning.
Hellbat/Marauder may direct counter Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac, which is what Forgg and Innovation used this tournament against Protoss, but it's not even close to being unbeatable, considering sOs beat Forgg by using mass amounts of archons, less storms and more feedbacks Forgg lost, despite having substantial momentum throughout the entire game. At worst, it means Protoss needs a different type of army composition, which Terrans have to do all the time. There's no problem.
Exactly, a different army comp is what is needed. But I don't think that mentioning the one game sOs won vs this style is helpful as a guide here, since it's the one game the Forgg forgot to make ghosts, which would wreck those archons. But who knows, maybe it's give and take and we will see perfecting of compositions on both sides. I hope it turns out well.
It's very possible it'll be like that, I'm also curious what would happen if ghosts were thrown into the composition as well, but I personally think it'd be fine, just more feedbacks/snipe wars would happen. We don't have enough data to conclude that Hellbats are OP, and 1 tournament certainty isn't enough. I think they do warrant a taking a look at though, mostly because one unit is so effective and can fill so many different holes within a Terran army. I think defending actual Hellbat drops will just be practice, similar to how Protoss learned to defend the roach max timing
True, it could turn out to just make Protosses much more adept at defending, which I would welcome as well. But I wouldn't want it to make the game too passive with a toss just hunkering down to defend everything till lategame.
I really wish that Protoss were more aggressive with WP play, especially in the mid game where a WP w/ DT's could absolutely wreck a production line. Now that the tech isn't too expensive, I think Protoss players are just too used to the traditional ways of playing defensive and breaking out (flow of the game).
It's just not that rewarding. There's nothing you can really stuff into a Warp Prism that screams danger.
4 sentries. Or 2 sentries + immortal. That will be really much more dangerous with warp prism speed boost (it might even be too dangerous). Considering next it switches to its other mode, and starts warping in units.
Oh yes, the dreaded 4 Sentry, with a grand total of 24 dps per WP. Let's take a look at 6 Marines and Marauder vs. non-armored: 73.5 dps. Then cost, Toss 400m/400g vs. Terran 500m/125g, but we musn't forget that Mules produce a mineral inflation, so that's not the true cost, and yes Mules destroy whatever bonus Chrono offers (Protoss only stays ahead like a minute in the early game if you line up the replays). Cost per killing power is just stupid low on the Protoss side. Oracle/Phoenix is decent, but far easier to shut down and isn't the backbone of the deathball army like the Terran harass is. There's just too much risk to drop harass anything outside the 4 Zealots because those precious gas units need to be part of the ball to prevent the a-move steamroll. If the Protoss units were cheaper, much higher DPS and mobility, and got heals, and were very low risk to begin with, one would say they'd do WP drops just as much as Terrans, imagine that.
On June 11 2013 07:35 unteqair wrote: Here is Jangbi vs Flash. The SG opening did really well. Well he opened Nexus before SG, but you'll get the idea.
I do wonder why pro Toss don't go Phoenix more often to shut down drops. It seems to be the only thing that really does shut them down, even though you run the the risk of the a-move.
It's easier to lift and kill a couple of hellbats than it is to kill a squad of dropped marines. With the oracle and the phoenix you can spot these things coming much more easily, because if you aren't harassing with the air then most likely you're trying to spot the army or kill the medivacs. Add in the potential buff to the warp prism and Jangbi would have beat him even more.
The way games are played now, Terran is by far the easiest race macro-wise. It seems like all they need is stim + combat sheid + 2 ebays throughout the game. Add widow mine burrow speed upgrade whenever you remember. Their techs are set within the first 7~8 mins of the game. Rest of the game is simply adding more rax or CCs as you have excess minerals. It's a huge advantage for T in that they can spend more time on their units and map than P or Z.
On June 11 2013 10:38 usethis2 wrote: The way games are played now, Terran is by far the easiest race macro-wise. It seems like all they need is stim + combat sheid + 2 ebays throughout the game. Add widow mine burrow speed upgrade whenever you remember. Their techs are set within the first 7~8 mins of the game. Rest of the game is simply adding more rax or CCs as you have excess minerals. It's a huge advantage for T in that they can spend more time on their units and map than P or Z.
Someone hasn't played Protoss :p
It's all up to what people consider good macro. If you consider it being able to make units appear on the battlefield the fastest, then yes Protoss wins. But keeping in perfect time with the warp-in cycles is the same thing as larva injecting perfectly with zerg. Being able to queue up units early before a battle as terran allows more versatility in keeping your unit production cycles on track. And because protoss produces warpgate units in a zerg way and other units in a terran way, they need to be adept in both styles of macro if they want to succeed. Again, it's all up to how you look at macro and which parts you value.
On June 11 2013 10:38 usethis2 wrote: The way games are played now, Terran is by far the easiest race macro-wise. It seems like all they need is stim + combat sheid + 2 ebays throughout the game. Add widow mine burrow speed upgrade whenever you remember. Their techs are set within the first 7~8 mins of the game. Rest of the game is simply adding more rax or CCs as you have excess minerals. It's a huge advantage for T in that they can spend more time on their units and map than P or Z.
Someone hasn't played Protoss :p
It's all up to what people consider good macro. If you consider it being able to make units appear on the battlefield the fastest, then yes Protoss wins. But keeping in perfect time with the warp-in cycles is the same thing as larva injecting perfectly with zerg. Being able to queue up units early before a battle as terran allows more versatility in keeping your unit production cycles on track. And because protoss produces warpgate units in a zerg way and other units in a terran way, they need to be adept in both styles of macro if they want to succeed. Again, it's all up to how you look at macro and which parts you value.
Queueing units is a big no-no at most points in the game. That is money that should be spent on more infrastructure.
On June 11 2013 10:38 usethis2 wrote: The way games are played now, Terran is by far the easiest race macro-wise. It seems like all they need is stim + combat sheid + 2 ebays throughout the game. Add widow mine burrow speed upgrade whenever you remember. Their techs are set within the first 7~8 mins of the game. Rest of the game is simply adding more rax or CCs as you have excess minerals. It's a huge advantage for T in that they can spend more time on their units and map than P or Z.
you don't know shit about this game if you think Terran is easiest to macro. Have fun needing to tap home constantly to make additional buildings and supply depots when zerg can just spam spacebars and v for their macro.
hardest part about zerg macro is being able to keep the 30ish seconds rhyme throughout the game while in fights.
On June 11 2013 10:38 usethis2 wrote: The way games are played now, Terran is by far the easiest race macro-wise. It seems like all they need is stim + combat sheid + 2 ebays throughout the game. Add widow mine burrow speed upgrade whenever you remember. Their techs are set within the first 7~8 mins of the game. Rest of the game is simply adding more rax or CCs as you have excess minerals. It's a huge advantage for T in that they can spend more time on their units and map than P or Z.
you don't know shit about this game if you think Terran is easiest to macro. Have fun needing to tap home constantly to make additional buildings and supply depots when zerg can just spam spacebars and v for their macro.
hardest part about zerg macro is being able to keep the 30ish seconds rhyme throughout the game while in fights.
Wow making buldings, if only the other races had to make buildings aswell.
On June 11 2013 10:38 usethis2 wrote: The way games are played now, Terran is by far the easiest race macro-wise. It seems like all they need is stim + combat sheid + 2 ebays throughout the game. Add widow mine burrow speed upgrade whenever you remember. Their techs are set within the first 7~8 mins of the game. Rest of the game is simply adding more rax or CCs as you have excess minerals. It's a huge advantage for T in that they can spend more time on their units and map than P or Z.
Someone hasn't played Protoss :p
Such a lazy answer. I don't know how in any world hitting 5 and tapping aaaa isn't easier than looking away from your army to warp in when the timers run down.
Whatever. SC2 matches its audience.
A simple solution for mutas would have been to limit air control groups to 12. Somewhat helps with voids as well. Frankly, they kinda missed the mark with airplay in sc2.
On June 11 2013 10:38 usethis2 wrote: The way games are played now, Terran is by far the easiest race macro-wise. It seems like all they need is stim + combat sheid + 2 ebays throughout the game. Add widow mine burrow speed upgrade whenever you remember. Their techs are set within the first 7~8 mins of the game. Rest of the game is simply adding more rax or CCs as you have excess minerals. It's a huge advantage for T in that they can spend more time on their units and map than P or Z.
you don't know shit about this game if you think Terran is easiest to macro. Have fun needing to tap home constantly to make additional buildings and supply depots when zerg can just spam spacebars and v for their macro.
hardest part about zerg macro is being able to keep the 30ish seconds rhyme throughout the game while in fights.
Wow making buldings, if only the other races had to make buildings aswell.
Making a total of 8-15 buildings entire game as zerg is not comparable. Aren't hurt by supply block compare to other races unless early game because you can just vvvddddzzzzrrrr and 30 supply up. Larva rhythm and good decision making is what differentiate good zergs from bad.
EPT
It will melt Mutas but won't affect single Medivac drops.
