EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 247
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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Pinna
Finland152 Posts
On July 08 2012 11:25 Shiori wrote: Because they are, and because 1 slip up means they all get Fungaled and you lose thousands of Gas. Yes, because it is like terrans use all their gas in the lategame. Oh wait.. Using ravens brings Terran to the same situation as Zerg and Protoss are already in, which is: lose your army once, lose the game. We do. I disagree. Thors are actually ok'ish if you can get them to target the broodlords before they un-split. Thors are also good against the ultralisk-switches which may be incoming if you make a ton of vikings. And if the Zerg is starting to run away, you might get to snipe couple of infestors with them. Because Blizzard hates buffing Capital Ships. I agree, and that's because of the strenght of the basic units. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
And if any race can lose their whole army and not lose the game it is zerg in the midgame ZvP or protoss in the lategame PvT. Terran is never in that situation after the very early game (first few drops). I am a protoss player and have no pro-terran bias, but can we please be the slightest bit neutral? | ||
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Toastie.NL
Netherlands232 Posts
On July 09 2012 05:43 Pinna wrote: What he means is that Ravens have a casting range of 6 (IIRC) on Seeker Missile (the useful spell) which can be countered with a range 8+2 spell for Zerg or a range 9 spell for Protoss. Ravens rely on the opponent not paying attention to get their shots off. And once they got them off, they'll die regardless.Yes, because it is like terrans use all their gas in the lategame. Oh wait.. Using ravens brings Terran to the same situation as Zerg and Protoss are already in, which is: lose your army once, lose the game. I disagree. Thors are actually ok'ish if you can get them to target the broodlords before they un-split. Thors are also good against the ultralisk-switches which may be incoming if you make a ton of vikings. And if the Zerg is starting to run away, you might get to snipe couple of infestors with them. That, and the fact that 3/3/3 Carriers or 3/3 Battlecruisers are pretty fucking powerful units, it's just hard to transition into them. | ||
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ahole-surprise
United States813 Posts
I'm convinced of this conspiracy theory because it's exactly what I would do as Blizzard, if I were the currently existing Blizzard that forced B.net to even install the game so as to prevent piracy. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 09 2012 05:52 Toastie.NL wrote: What he means is that Ravens have a casting range of 6 (IIRC) on Seeker Missile (the useful spell) which can be countered with a range 8+2 spell for Zerg or a range 9 spell for Protoss. Ravens rely on the opponent not paying attention to get their shots off. And once they got them off, they'll die regardless.Again, using thors relies on your opponent not splitting (and thus messing up), also, Thors without an upgrade advantage do pretty terrible damage. That, and the fact that 3/3/3 Carriers or 3/3 Battlecruisers are pretty fucking powerful units, it's just hard to transition into them. Fungal has range 9 (+radius 2)  And yes, clumping air is bad, spreading it out too far is bad as well. When you move stuff clumps automatically, so good spreading is not possible. But amazingly, such comments come from Terrans that keep on complaining about how spreading up armies against splah and keeping it spread is so hard. I agree on the BCs (and Carriers and also on Ravens) being really hard to transition into properly. However, I don't think anybody apart from MVP even has a proper gameplan for such a thing yet - and MVP simply gets there when he wants to, because - unlike everyone else - he sets up for it. | ||
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HinagikUx
United States178 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:15 Big J wrote: Fungal has range 9 (+radius 2) And yes, clumping air is bad, spreading it out too far is bad as well. When you move stuff clumps automatically, so good spreading is not possible. But amazingly, such comments come from Terrans that keep on complaining about how spreading up armies against splah and keeping it spread is so hard. I agree on the BCs (and Carriers and also on Ravens) being really hard to transition into properly. However, I don't think anybody apart from MVP even has a proper gameplan for such a thing yet - and MVP simply gets there when he wants to, because - unlike everyone else - he sets up for it. creator vs Coca in gstl recently. Sets up really well for carrier transition, but imo the build time is way too long and makes them unviable; he literally loses 100 supply and 2 mining bases while trying to pump one round of carriers out. The game is designed so that you need to stay 200/200 in the late game and throwing away a chunk of supply for carriers or BC's leads to an impossible to defend counter attack due to the strength of the infestor/BL comp which will kill what you have before you get a healthy number of capital ships out | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
At least in the era of Terran dominance there was actually something to watch except: 200-200 go kill him, gg. | ||
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:08 ahole-surprise wrote: Good luck getting Blizzard to revert the balance changes. I think it's a marketing ploy to get people to play Zerg since they're so strong and create interest in Zerg, so casual players will give a fuck about Zerg single player campaign and hardcore players will have an extra incentive to buy HoTS since WoL is so "broken." Not that hardcore players would need that incentive since they have to buy the expansion anyway if they want to play competitively, but by making the game so "imbalanced" straddlers who would have stuck around in WoL for a few months maybe will just buy HoTs now on day one. I'm convinced of this conspiracy theory because it's exactly what I would do as Blizzard, if I were the currently existing Blizzard that forced B.net to even install the game so as to prevent piracy. Well that only really works if the change is reverted in HotS or if there are more mid and late game choices for terran. Not trying to sound like I know how the game will work out, but looking at the battle hellion, widow mine, and warhound (am I missing anything else?) they seem much more geared towards tvt and tvp, not so much tvz. Additionally, swarm hosts, ultra burrow charge, and vipers are additions to the zerg mid and late game, which would make tvz even more hard, and even more apparent that terrans are struggling in the matchup, since this problem is about those stages in the game. I have to heavily disagree with Pinna that using gas and ravens put terran on the same footing with zerg and protoss "lose army once and lose the game" It's not actually how it works. I think it would take a fool to honestly argue that terran has the same rebuilding capacity as zerg larve or protoss warp gate/chrono. | ||
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
- vikings are now low armored - vikings ground dmg +1 - ground mech updates effects viking ground dmg here is what we would get: 1.: cant get killed so easily by infestors or focused down by stalkers 2.: dont let them and the fact you have air superiority be absolutely useless when opponent transitions away from broodlords or collossi. 3.: make mech viable tvp, to have at least one metal unit that doesnt get roflstomped by immortals. what do you think? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:24 HinagikUx wrote: creator vs Coca in gstl recently. Sets up really well for carrier transition, but imo the build time is way too long and makes them unviable; he literally loses 100 supply and 2 mining bases while trying to pump one round of carriers out. The game is designed so that you need to stay 200/200 in the late game and throwing away a chunk of supply for carriers or BC's leads to an impossible to defend counter attack due to the strength of the infestor/BL comp which will kill what you have before you get a healthy number of capital ships out lol, no he didnt setup properly. He went to 200/200 and then started building 7carriers when he was losing a combat and needed units instantly.It's what happens to Zergs when they max on roaches in ZvP, what happens to Terran when they max on MMM in TvP and apparently happens when you get destroyed in a battle and start 42 supply of carriers while your SGs are being sieged by a maxed (? or at least 50supply advantage BL) army (the creator game). | ||
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darthfoley
United States8001 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:44 Corvi wrote: here is how i would fix terran: - vikings are now low armored - vikings ground dmg +1 - ground mech updates effects viking ground dmg here is what we would get: 1.: cant get killed so easily by infestors or focused down by stalkers 2.: dont let them and the fact you have air superiority be absolutely useless when opponent transitions away from broodlords or collossi. 3.: make mech viable tvp, to have at least one metal unit that doesnt get roflstomped by immortals. what do you think? that's actually an interesting idea, i'm not good enough to gauge it though (only high diamond) | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
Please don't give me any ridiculous examples about lategame TvP in BW. It's not the same. I want a dynamic matchup in XvZ, and right now we don't have it. Archon Toileting, trying to out-multitask your opponent, and so on are just gimmicky bandaids on the problem that is lategame Zerg. I'm not entirely sure how to fix it, but it needs to be a real change, or we're going to keep alternating between strategy X being too strong in he midgame and summarily being nerfed so that that race can't actually play anymore. The real problem isn't that Terran's early game is/was too strong, or that Protoss's all-ins are/were too strong. Maybe they were, and maybe they still are, but it doesn't matter because that's the only way to play against Zerg. I desperately, dearly want to macro against Zerg, and on ladder I often do, but any time I know I'm playing someone who has good mechanics, I all-in, because even if we're evenly skilled, he'll beat me in a macro game just due to the obscene power of BL/Infestor compositions. Terrans work the same way. Of all the GM Terrans I know, not a single one wants to get into a macro situation against a player they know is skilled. They will always go for some sort of all-innish pressure opening, and only macro if it pays off. This is bad, and I'm sick of hearing people just lament this particular change or that particular change or pretend that things can be fixed by increasing the movement speed of the BC or some bullshit. The problem is that Zerg's economy is untouchable for most of the game barring all-in pressure, and that Zergs think the level of economy they are allowed right now should be the baseline, so that whenever a strategy is developed that reliably denies 80 Drones before 10 minutes, they complain that it's overpowered. It's not. You shouldn't be getting that many Drones by 10 minutes, because it means you're fucking miles ahead. It's so frustrating to read this thread sometimes because people don't understand that since Zerg's economy is so fucking steroided right now, anything which fixes the matchups will mean that ZERG IS WEAKER AND CAN'T DREAM OF GETTING A 15 MINUTE BL FORCE. When a Terran/Protoss can 'risk-free' stop you from purely Droning in the early game, that's the way it should be. It's not imbalanced that they can do this. You should never be able to purely Drone against someone who's playing standard. Never. It's fucking obscene to even suggest that. You shouldn't be taking a free third at 5 minutes against someone who didn't fast expand. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:53 Shiori wrote: I think everyone's missing the bigger problem: neither Protoss nor Terran have any way of dealing with lategame Zerg reliably. Whether it's the massive, scaling economy which benefits from stacked Larva, or the potency of the Infestor/BL, both races have an incredibly hard time playing standard against lategame Zerg armies. While it's certainly true that there are numerous problems existing for mid and early game XvZ, mostly insofar as pressure has been totally stifled by patch after patch, the true problem is that this pressure is necessary. No matchup should be on a timer. Period. Please don't give me any ridiculous examples about lategame TvP in BW. It's not the same. I want a dynamic matchup in XvZ, and right now we don't have it. Archon Toileting, trying to out-multitask your opponent, and so on are just gimmicky bandaids on the problem that is lategame Zerg. I'm not entirely sure how to fix it, but it needs to be a real change, or we're going to keep alternating between strategy X being too strong in he midgame and summarily being nerfed so that that race can't actually play anymore. The real problem isn't that Terran's early game is/was too strong, or that Protoss's all-ins are/were too strong. Maybe they were, and maybe they still are, but it doesn't matter because that's the only way to play against Zerg. I desperately, dearly want to macro against Zerg, and on ladder I often do, but any time I know I'm playing someone who has good mechanics, I all-in, because even if we're evenly skilled, he'll beat me in a macro game just due to the obscene power of BL/Infestor compositions. Terrans work the same way. Of all the GM Terrans I know, not a single one wants to get into a macro situation against a player they know is skilled. They will always go for some sort of all-innish pressure opening, and only macro if it pays off. This is bad, and I'm sick of hearing people just lament this particular change or that particular change or pretend that things can be fixed by increasing the movement speed of the BC or some bullshit. The problem is that Zerg's economy is untouchable for most of the game barring all-in pressure, and that Zergs think the level of economy they are allowed right now should be the baseline, so that whenever a strategy is developed that reliably denies 80 Drones before 10 minutes, they complain that it's overpowered. It's not. You shouldn't be getting that many Drones by 10 minutes, because it means you're fucking miles ahead. It's so frustrating to read this thread sometimes because people don't understand that since Zerg's economy is so fucking steroided right now, anything which fixes the matchups will mean that ZERG IS WEAKER AND CAN'T DREAM OF GETTING A 15 MINUTE BL FORCE. When a Terran/Protoss can 'risk-free' stop you from purely Droning in the early game, that's the way it should be. It's not imbalanced that they can do this. You should never be able to purely Drone against someone who's playing standard. Never. It's fucking obscene to even suggest that. You shouldn't be taking a free third at 5 minutes against someone who didn't fast expand. I agree, there are some serious fundamental problems with zerg economy, it's in such a ridiculous situation right now. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:59 gillon wrote: I agree, there are some serious fundamental problems with zerg economy, it's in such a ridiculous situation right now. It really is, and I'm so sick of reading the complacency that Zergs have adopted. "Have you tried this?" It doesn't matter. I shouldn't have to be trying all kinds of obscure shit just to get into an even position from something you do by default. | ||
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Gumbotwins
Netherlands256 Posts
On July 09 2012 06:59 gillon wrote: I agree, there are some serious fundamental problems with zerg economy, it's in such a ridiculous situation right now. 100% agree with this fine man | ||
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darthfoley
United States8001 Posts
On July 09 2012 07:08 Shiori wrote: It really is, and I'm so sick of reading the complacency that Zergs have adopted. "Have you tried this?" It doesn't matter. I shouldn't have to be trying all kinds of obscure shit just to get into an even position from something you do by default. you've sold me through your last 3 posts. you make sense | ||
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TibblesEvilCat
United Kingdom766 Posts
My issue is the maps are HUGE! i mean really? were talking 2 min rush distances for some of these maps, i think there needs to be some scale down with some maps. To understand what that means to a lowish zerg player? * can scout a push happening late and still have 1-2 rounds of units to defend pro player * scout push happening, setup awsome flanks, and still get to 90 drones comfortabily etc that my issue, if players played some of the more oldschool maps vs there freinds, you'll see that you can still do timing pushes that punnish zerg for not doing everything correct there side | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Hellions were default between the queen buff, but they weren't default until they were 'discovered'. Oh and I play terran  But yeah queens seem to do too many jobs for just one unit, they are too versatile. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On July 09 2012 07:16 Willzzz wrote: Yes but you once you test it out and find that it works it becomes the new default. Hellions were default between the queen buff, but they weren't default until they were 'discovered'. Oh and I play terran But yeah queens seem to do too many jobs for just one unit, they are too versatile. ...kind of like the marine...wouldn't you agree? | ||
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