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On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded.
Spines and spores are the most important for defending drops. Unless it's a 2+ medivac drop u don't need units to defend.
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On July 09 2012 07:55 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 07:35 Enearde wrote:On July 09 2012 07:28 Willzzz wrote:On July 09 2012 07:23 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
its not the zergs fault the huge maps on display play to there strengths. On a large map broodlords are simply too slow, on a smaller map terran can pressure before broodlords. You play differently on different maps. On a large map it makes sense for terran not to do a timing, but harass and build up a late game army of their own. There is NO Terran late game army that really have a great efficient, reliable unit. EMP has too small a radius to be really efficient and even cloak can be very easily countered by some affordable Seers and Snipe was nerfed to oblivion, Ravens efficiency is luck based and is not a "reliable" unit, thors don't do shit beside tanking some damage and deal with a badly spread BL army...i won't talk about BCs because well they are BCs I think the big problem most people have in TvZ is managing tech switches. Broodlords are ok to deal with if you know they are coming, same with ultras. On a large map you can see broodlords coming a mile off and have time to prepare, not to mention killing off a few expos while they slowly drift across the map. Ultras will come at you a lot quicker, but then you can deal with them pretty well with standard bio/tank. And even if you have useless supply in vikings a good sim city can make up for that. While a big map makes early/mid game easier for zerg, it makes their late game less powerful because of broodlord speed.
I don't think broodlord speed is of any concern. Zerglings are very good for countering any drop play and slowing down any push that comes from a different path. I mean, you just need to have a good amount of zerglings and infestors to give you time to move your Broodlord. And even if it's not true for every situation, any base race will come to the zerg winning because they will eventually kill all of your base and production facilities before you even come close to kill theirs. And even if you come ahead of the base race (i mean you secured two bases on a far away position and the zerg only have one mining base) you'll eventually die because you have to rebuild your production facilities or you'll run out of money eventually since half the map was already taken before that even happens. And since he can secure whatever place he wants (since his army is more powerful than yours you'll probably die in any situation.
Okay, maybe it isn't true everytime and sometimes you'll win because the longer the game the bigger the chance errors will be made but in an ideal situation where all players play perfectly, i don't see the Terran winning a late game low eco situation because where Terran can not mass a high efficiency unit, zerg will still have a serious amount of infestors building up mana for the next stage and i feel like you'll probably lose because of the high efficient late game Zerg composition.
I don't want to sound like bitching about balance because it's not like i'm absolutely certain of how things will be in a month or even a week but i feel like it's a problem that needs some discussion. I think maps should be smallest than they are now. That would be a huge thing to start with. At least it'll force zerg to have to adapt a little more. Right now they can do the same build in every match up for every build you're doing and will be fine because either the queen will be enough to deal with the kind of early pushes (that are not all in) you can do or because past a certain point they will have enough eco to crush every timing you throw at them without breaking a sweat. You can't denie that you already are in a bad shape if your opponent gets at 80 drones when you only have 50 or 60 SCVs/Probes (even more true with Protoss). You're playing from behind from the start and you'll HAVE TO make something happend to get the win.
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On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded.
Considering they are by far the fastest units if on creep i question this statement. And a 8 Marine Drop later in games will not do anything against base defense that should be everywhere. Minerals are not a problem for none of the races if you reach 4 bases there's no excuse for not building at least 3 Spines and maybe a Spore per expansion in later stages.
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On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded.
But at the same time, you're dedicating 10 supply specifically to harass one place... Then another 10 supply if you want to do double-pronged attacks (which is the only way to really get damage done).
Sure, it can work (ex. DRG vs Ryung in recent GSL), but the Terran needs to have a massive amount of bases (Ryung ended up with 8+ bases) and be uncontested in them.
The main problem with having so many bases and dedicating that much supply to multi-pronged attacks spreads the Terran out too much. Once they're spread out that much, they start losing control of areas to small packets of lings, and once that happens, they lose production capacity, which in turn makes them less able to do multi-pronged attacks, which in turn makes them lose the game, base trade or no.
Just from what I've seen.
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On July 09 2012 08:30 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. Considering they are by far the fastest units if on creep i question this statement.
My thoughts exactly. I just. What??
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On July 09 2012 08:29 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. Spines and spores are the most important for defending drops. Unless it's a 2+ medivac drop u don't need units to defend.
False. 3/3 marines DESTROY spines. 8 3/3 marines (without a medivac) will destroy 2 spines with there being only 2 marine casualties, with medivac it would make that 1. I think that 8 3/3 marines can even beat 3 spines in a row, haven't tested that though.
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On July 09 2012 10:38 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:29 Torra wrote:On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. Spines and spores are the most important for defending drops. Unless it's a 2+ medivac drop u don't need units to defend. False. 3/3 marines DESTROY spines. 8 3/3 marines (without a medivac) will destroy 2 spines with there being only 2 marine casualties, with medivac it would make that 1. I think that 8 3/3 marines can even beat 3 spines in a row, haven't tested that though.
3/3 8 Marines + a Medivac is a pretty pricey investment. The point of the Spines is to slow the drops down till your Lings/units arrive.
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On July 09 2012 07:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 07:16 Willzzz wrote:Yes but you once you test it out and find that it works it becomes the new default. Hellions were default between the queen buff, but they weren't default until they were 'discovered'. Oh and I play terran  But yeah queens seem to do too many jobs for just one unit, they are too versatile. ...kind of like the marine...wouldn't you agree?
During the earlier metagame yes, marine is way too versatile, ppl use them in all matchup and can pair with almost any other units.
Now a days thats not quite the case anymore, zerg discovered the power of mass infestors. fungals + ultra, fungals + banes, mass HT with storms, collosi... Well yes you always can micro and spread your marines like a god, but even the king of marine micro MKP is doing badly these days...
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Russian Federation142 Posts
On July 09 2012 10:38 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:29 Torra wrote:On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. Spines and spores are the most important for defending drops. Unless it's a 2+ medivac drop u don't need units to defend. False. 3/3 marines DESTROY spines. 8 3/3 marines (without a medivac) will destroy 2 spines with there being only 2 marine casualties, with medivac it would make that 1. I think that 8 3/3 marines can even beat 3 spines in a row, haven't tested that though.
One infestor for your 4 bases = 8 supply. With micro and a spine you can't lose. Versus the 10 supply for 8 marines and a medic.
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Isn't Zerg supposed to be the 'reactionary' race? I find it strange that Zerg all ins are a lot more powerful than Terran all ins, yet they can macro better than terran as well. It seems that Zerg is the one that dictates the game now.
The premise is fine on paper, but larva mechanics allowing for fast tech switches or remaxes + cost effiecent mega death balls seem to clash with eachother.
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and on a side note, nerchio just beat mc 3-1. zerg gud
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On July 09 2012 12:37 serge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 10:38 Pinna wrote:On July 09 2012 08:29 Torra wrote:On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. Spines and spores are the most important for defending drops. Unless it's a 2+ medivac drop u don't need units to defend. False. 3/3 marines DESTROY spines. 8 3/3 marines (without a medivac) will destroy 2 spines with there being only 2 marine casualties, with medivac it would make that 1. I think that 8 3/3 marines can even beat 3 spines in a row, haven't tested that though. One infestor for your 4 bases = 8 supply. With micro and a spine you can't lose. Versus the 10 supply for 8 marines and a medic.
What if the terran micro's? =P Or will he just drop off the 8 rines in front of the spine, clumb them up nicely and wait for the fungles?
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TLDR , im a litle drunk ,my english pretty much suck , but you should understand it anyway ,played bw for 8 year and im pretty much gm level in sc2 since the league got out and i will just say what i think about the game .
so , where this topic going now ? zerg need to be nerfed but we got some zerg player trying to keep the game the same way doing some reply saying some stuft since 20 page now , and they are running out of stuft to say. but hey they will still be here telling you white black , and black white .
terran are losing everywhere , every tournament , they dont even make it top 8 in most tournament , what about the win rate , i remember that like 45 % and lower for t v z , that just wrong that nothing happen from blizzard side , why zerg got the queen buff anyway ? hellion was that much imbalanced ? i dont think so .
terran got ZERO unit that counter cost effective vs broodlord/infestor and that IMBALANCED ,that the only way to say it , imbalanced , raven work using the fact that the zerg will not try to dodge or spreed unit just a litle, ghost got nerfed , in fact everything got nerfed from the terran side , that just crazy when you think about that for one sec . after the game was out since 1-2 months into releases they started the nerf drop , back when player was playing totaly bad , did not know how to play the game , or just counter some easy stuft like 1-1-1 in t v p
( wich now good protoss will counter it with no need of even one immortal )blizzard was nerfing terran every patch , why ?!
probably because terran was the race the most easy to figure out and play at a lower level or just because david kim hate terran ( he zerg right ?! )
maybe the beta version of the game would be balanced right now if they remove all nerf and buff every race got ,i would love to try this version of the game with current pro gamer and see the result , if everything was THAT OP from the terran side or that was just because everyone was just bad and did not know how to play the game back then.
im going with one exemple , the reaper in t v z , before the nerf bad zerg was just dying right and left but good zerg was just making some roach for counter this stuft and was not dying anymore ( i was pretty much playing at the top level and reaper was strong , probably 50 % imbalanced , but nothing like the infestor who are still here ,, but not auto win , this was forcing zerg to make roach realy fast ) what blizzard did ?
remove the reaper from the game
( sorry maybe he still here but we dont see him anymore )
so what to do ? im just whining ?
remove queen range , remove ghost nerf = fixed t v z , but blizzard will NEVER DO that , that would just prove they are WRONG , and guess what , blizzard NEVER wrong ,so everything will just have to wait until the zerg expack , and we resume , people start to figure out some stuft , got nerfed , let hope this game will be more balanced , who know ?
but honestly broodwar got balanced BECAUSE blizzard was not fixing it or changing the game every week , some matchup like pvz was totaly imbalanced before some people like bisu come into the game and say , that how you play it , maybe you will tell me in t v z broodlord/infestor this will happen just like that , but they are no unit curently in the game who can do that , so this will never happen if blizzard do nothing .
with blizzard patching and changing the game every week , that like playing a totaly new game every patch that pretty easy to guess the game will be imbalanced forever from some side , maybe some race will be more stronger that other for some months , with blizzard forever here , we will never get a game balanced like broodwar
( maybe in 10 year after all the expack got out and blizzard forget the title , that my best bet ) this will never happen before that .
im not even playing the game anymore because the game totaly imbalanced ( right now ) and i refuse to switch race
maybe im going to play again after they changed the game 7-8 time after many week of patch , nerf buff train . maybe my race will be op , then , who know .
no one will probably read everything hahaha , but im going post anyway , just for read it again tommorow ,when im not drunk , for archive , press post !
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On July 09 2012 13:21 BBMorti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 12:37 serge wrote:On July 09 2012 10:38 Pinna wrote:On July 09 2012 08:29 Torra wrote:On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. Spines and spores are the most important for defending drops. Unless it's a 2+ medivac drop u don't need units to defend. False. 3/3 marines DESTROY spines. 8 3/3 marines (without a medivac) will destroy 2 spines with there being only 2 marine casualties, with medivac it would make that 1. I think that 8 3/3 marines can even beat 3 spines in a row, haven't tested that though. One infestor for your 4 bases = 8 supply. With micro and a spine you can't lose. Versus the 10 supply for 8 marines and a medic. What if the terran micro's? =P Or will he just drop off the 8 rines in front of the spine, clumb them up nicely and wait for the fungles?
If he spreads his marines that will make it even easier to kill the drop off with lings and the terran can't really just lift up marines and go if the infestor is there to fungal the marines and the medivac.
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I'm gonna copy-paste my own message from another topic. I want to see your opinion on this:
The only thing I don't like at the way Blizzard is making balance is removing viable strategies. For example, I can count a few of them:
Ghost late game TvZ - was overpowered, but it took all the micro of you. That could've been exploited by zergs. Perhaps a smaller nerf could've worked better.
Reapers - they were over nerfed and passive nerfed (queen range for example) to the point of nobody making them.
Infestors - Ling in PvZ - This was removed due to Neural parasite nerf. Basically with good micro, any good Protoss would've just reacted to a big amount of Infestors and spammed Feedback. Instead, Blizzard removed this option too.
Mech in PvT - The damage nerf to hellions basically nullified the viability of going mech in PvT at all (it was weak to begin with, having hard counter units and abilities Immortals, Charge, good old zealot drop with speed prism, while you couldn't do much because of having a slow passive army). Also adding energy bar to Thors helped to the disappearance of this, but let's say that it enabled diversity, Protosses could go High templars, use them and then morph them into archons as tank unit against Siege tanks.
There might be others, I just can't think right now.
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its disappointing to me that the skill level if so different between korean terrans and foreigner terrans
the level of play foreigner terrans is showing is simply not enough to keep up with the buffs to the zerg race
someone once said, and i thought this was funny
the terran race is balanced around MKP and MMA and the protoss and zerg race race is balanced around incontrol and idra
is DRG even good anymore?
i can't tell
he plays so abusively
3 hatch before pool into massive bane busts with muta support vs terran. it's too good right now.. why are all the zergs right now going mass ling speed baneling muta all ins on 3 base?it seems like they have realized that terran cannot create units as quickly, and that to be equal in upgrades with all of that ling bane at that stage int he game is basically only possible with a very low tank count
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On July 09 2012 08:35 ForwardUntoDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. But at the same time, you're dedicating 10 supply specifically to harass one place... Then another 10 supply if you want to do double-pronged attacks (which is the only way to really get damage done). Sure, it can work (ex. DRG vs Ryung in recent GSL), but the Terran needs to have a massive amount of bases (Ryung ended up with 8+ bases) and be uncontested in them. The main problem with having so many bases and dedicating that much supply to multi-pronged attacks spreads the Terran out too much. Once they're spread out that much, they start losing control of areas to small packets of lings, and once that happens, they lose production capacity, which in turn makes them less able to do multi-pronged attacks, which in turn makes them lose the game, base trade or no. Just from what I've seen.
Ryung wasn't uncontested in setting up his bases, he just concentrated on defending. Unlike most terrans he NEVER moved his main army beyond the half way point of the map, he never invested in a timing attack. He invested in defensive buildings like sensor towers and planetaries.
Small pockets of lings do nothing to a terran who has his main army on his own side of the map and has defensive structures and sim city.
And if DRG can't defend against small groups of MMM effectively, who can? Remember the extra M, the marauder an excellent unit that can destroy infestors in seconds and tank well against ling/bling.
Oh and a full medivac costing 10 supply? so what, at that stage you can happily sac a few SCV to make room.
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On July 09 2012 16:47 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:35 ForwardUntoDawn wrote:On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. But at the same time, you're dedicating 10 supply specifically to harass one place... Then another 10 supply if you want to do double-pronged attacks (which is the only way to really get damage done). Sure, it can work (ex. DRG vs Ryung in recent GSL), but the Terran needs to have a massive amount of bases (Ryung ended up with 8+ bases) and be uncontested in them. The main problem with having so many bases and dedicating that much supply to multi-pronged attacks spreads the Terran out too much. Once they're spread out that much, they start losing control of areas to small packets of lings, and once that happens, they lose production capacity, which in turn makes them less able to do multi-pronged attacks, which in turn makes them lose the game, base trade or no. Just from what I've seen. Ryung wasn't uncontested in setting up his bases, he just concentrated on defending. Unlike most terrans he NEVER moved his main army beyond the half way point of the map, he never invested in a timing attack. He invested in defensive buildings like sensor towers and planetaries. Small pockets of lings do nothing to a terran who has his main army on his own side of the map and has defensive structures and sim city. And if DRG can't defend against small groups of MMM effectively, who can? Remember the extra M, the marauder an excellent unit that can destroy infestors in seconds and tank well against ling/bling. Oh and a full medivac costing 10 supply? so what, at that stage you can happily sac a few SCV to make room.
The thing is, even if you only defend your expansion and never cross the map with your army, your zerg opponent will have free reign over the map and be uncontested too. An uncontested zerg on a big map will ever win against terran because they will have a better eco long before you and start amassing money without you being able to do anything and the longer you wait the worse it gets because even if you don't die instantly from the huge zerg deathball, you'll die eventually because you'll lose your main or some bases just from lings runby or banelings. 3/3 adrenal gland lings are so good, it only takes 20 to kill a planetary being repaired. Also, you'll be so spread out that you'll eventually lose chunk of your army defending rendering you much weaker over time when the zerg army will be stronger and stronger being able to swap drones for spines.
For the medivac thing, you forget that while trying to build your viking count, your starports won't produce any medivac because if you do want some more, you'll die from broodlord and losing some medivacs harassing is very very bad at this stage of the game because of the massive amount of fungal. Your medivacs will already most likely die and they are as important as your siege tank count. Losing medivacs is NOT what you want. The chance you'll do damage are essentially quite low anyway, even if you kill what 15 drones, your opponent will just remakes them and that won't damage is army.
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On July 09 2012 15:06 c0sm0naut wrote:
its disappointing to me that the skill level if so different between korean terrans and foreigner terrans
the level of play foreigner terrans is showing is simply not enough to keep up with the buffs to the zerg race
someone once said, and i thought this was funny
the terran race is balanced around MKP and MMA and the protoss and zerg race race is balanced around incontrol and idra
is DRG even good anymore?
i can't tell
he plays so abusively
3 hatch before pool into massive bane busts with muta support vs terran. it's too good right now.. why are all the zergs right now going mass ling speed baneling muta all ins on 3 base?it seems like they have realized that terran cannot create units as quickly, and that to be equal in upgrades with all of that ling bane at that stage int he game is basically only possible with a very low tank count
Thorzain is rapidly closing that gap. If you watched his stream he plays more and more Korean by the day.
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EPT
