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Basically terran needs a big deathball that can kill the zerg and protoss deathballs that takes a little longer than their deathball to come out. Low level games are always going to devolve into one clump of units smashing into another - that's not a problem. No one at low level complains about that, we suck anyway.
However pro-level games evolve based upon the idea of prevention, harassment and generally stopping your opponent doing what they want to do. Terrans already have that terran deathball - it's battlecruiser raven (with seeker missile) viking ghost. It just needs to be a little easier to get to than it currently is. Stuff like:
- reducing battlecruiser build time
- making autoturrets scale with upgrades and making them not suck
- giving seeker missile a range of 8+ or buffing raven speed
There just needs to be an option to use a raven as a transition unit like infestors and either archons or high templar are at the moment. Atm ravens need too many upgrades and suck too much to be really useful.
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On July 09 2012 08:38 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:30 s3rp wrote:On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. Considering they are by far the fastest units if on creep i question this statement. My thoughts exactly. I just. What?? Of course he meant that they aren't fast enough just to run to the base which is currently being dropped. They must be there already.
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On July 09 2012 15:06 c0sm0naut wrote:
its disappointing to me that the skill level if so different between korean terrans and foreigner terrans
the level of play foreigner terrans is showing is simply not enough to keep up with the buffs to the zerg race
someone once said, and i thought this was funny
the terran race is balanced around MKP and MMA and the protoss and zerg race race is balanced around incontrol and idra
is DRG even good anymore?
i can't tell
he plays so abusively
3 hatch before pool into massive bane busts with muta support vs terran. it's too good right now.. why are all the zergs right now going mass ling speed baneling muta all ins on 3 base?it seems like they have realized that terran cannot create units as quickly, and that to be equal in upgrades with all of that ling bane at that stage int he game is basically only possible with a very low tank count
They play mass bane because of mass creep. infestors got figuered out and last seasons infestorplays got smashed from basically any random code S Terran.
And I dont know whats abusive, going 3hatch before pool if T opens CC first. That was possible before the last patch, only no Terran ever played CC first.
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On July 09 2012 19:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 15:06 c0sm0naut wrote:
its disappointing to me that the skill level if so different between korean terrans and foreigner terrans
the level of play foreigner terrans is showing is simply not enough to keep up with the buffs to the zerg race
someone once said, and i thought this was funny
the terran race is balanced around MKP and MMA and the protoss and zerg race race is balanced around incontrol and idra
is DRG even good anymore?
i can't tell
he plays so abusively
3 hatch before pool into massive bane busts with muta support vs terran. it's too good right now.. why are all the zergs right now going mass ling speed baneling muta all ins on 3 base?it seems like they have realized that terran cannot create units as quickly, and that to be equal in upgrades with all of that ling bane at that stage int he game is basically only possible with a very low tank count They play mass bane because of mass creep. infestors got figuered out and last seasons infestorplays got smashed from basically any random code S Terran. And I dont know whats abusive, going 3hatch before pool if T opens CC first. That was possible before the last patch, only no Terran ever played CC first.
If zerg see CC first I just put ebay at his third right away and leave it at 99%.
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On July 09 2012 18:41 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:38 SmileZerg wrote:On July 09 2012 08:30 s3rp wrote:On July 09 2012 08:24 Willzzz wrote:
50 lings is quite a bit of supply, and he will have to split that between bases, lings aren't that fast on a huge map.
You drop 8 marines behind some minerals and they take out a lot of lings and can just run away if they are surrounded. Considering they are by far the fastest units if on creep i question this statement. My thoughts exactly. I just. What?? Of course he meant that they aren't fast enough just to run to the base which is currently being dropped. They must be there already.
They are still twice as fast as a medivac. You just need to look at the minimap and see the dropship approaching. Being alerted to a drop by "Our drones are under attack" and then lamenting the loss of economy doesn't mean that lings aren't fast enough...
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terran was balanced for the highest level of play before this patch, meaning good micro was no longer benefical, but a requirement for success, we have seen korean terrans dominating tournaments, and the other place where terrans were the majority... was the bronze league.
i liked being the minority in diamond, it did not matter that i could maybe reach high diamond with another race that is less micro reliant, because i had fun being aggressive in TvZ, preparing timings in TvP, and position tanks in TvT... and should i ever encounter something unbeatable, i could always trust a toptier terran to find an answer.
now however, even the toptier terrans do not look good, and do not BS me with "needs more time" these guys play 12+ hours a day, and when all the Slayers terrans cannot figure something out while practicing with coca, or the IM terrans with Nestea or so on, then maybe there IS an imbalance.
Blizzard themselves stated that terrans should aim for an early to midgame advantage in TvP, to fight on even terms in the lategame, now i would say that this is at least twice as important in TvZ, because their lategame is even harder to deal with due to the infestor, the ultra / BL switches and of course their production.
The problem ocurred, when terrans LAST option to control the zerg early game was taken away, the queen would now handle bunker- / hellion- / bansheepressure all alone, providing a "skip early game" option, and with creep out, terrans midgame timings, that used to follow no longer existing harrassment, are not very intimidating.
now terran can either allin or prepare for the lategame... with the most expensive, slowest and inflexible production facilities, many units that are designed as direct counters and thus have very limited purposes, and last but not least crappy T3.
Many may still remember the problem with TvP before the patch, well, below prolevel, that still exists, and now TvZ is even worse, at least you can fight TvP lategame IF you micro much more than the protoss, but no amount of micro can save you from zerg.
Theorycrafting will not help, of course a 3/3 200/200 BC Raven Thor Ghost with only 10 SCVs left will shred anything, but why would a Zerg / Protoss not attack once their deathball is assembled? and you better believe a terran on 5 bases has weakspots in the defense, and should you deny 2 expansions or get into the production, it is over.
so there are 2 solutions, if reverting some patches is out of the question:
1)buff terran lategame
2)make protoss and zerg harder to play
lastly as an afterthought, how can people point at the ryung vs drg match saying "THAT is your solution"?
drg played bad, he assembled a massive army only to have it sit in the middle while ryung had up to 60 supply of mm running wild across the map, then he lost BLs to a nuke, not to mention the infestors he lost...
and finally the last big fight, clumped BL charge into the biggest concave of terran ever seen, clumped infestors follow, corruptors come last, yes, under these circumstances seeker missile can be very good, but if a terran is supposed to split everything everywhere anytime, why should a zerg be successful with an obvious attackmove with the wrong order of units?
and lets not forget that ryung got last place in the group while drg and nestea advanced.
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I believe the main problem is a faulty design in the power vs mobility department.
Look at the siegetank. That's the kind of low mobility a high power unit should have. Unfortunatelly David Kim feels that a sieged position should be breakable head on. The current siege tank was balanced for Steppes of War. Thus in the current environment, it's power is too low for its mobility.
The broodlord has the right power level and is immobilish, but it's still a good unit, which on larger maps can be circumvented. The main problem here is the fact that infestors provide too much protection until broods move their asses. Otherwise it's a fine unit.
The colossus is on the other end of the scale. It has too much mobility. It is as fast as the rest of the army, needs no setup time and has the best splash without friendly fire. There is no tradeoff between power and mobility. I would be fine with a buffed colossus damage, if the move speed would be cut in half. Think AT-AT style movement. Or make is substantially weaker if you want it to be part of a deathball.
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One way to "fix the siege tank" would be to remove friendly fire. Another way to "fix the siege tank" would be to give it the ability to attack a specific ground spot, which could enable you to keep choke points under constant fire instead of having all your tanks fire on the first few Zerglings in the incoming wave. Both of these together would make mech viable again (with forward bunkers and turrets and so on) to be able to contain an opponent. A little more damage for the tank wouldnt hurt either, oh and a tank should do more splash damage to NON-armored targets IMO.
One way to "fix the Colossus" would be to add friendly fire (and for Fungal Growth/Ultralisk splash as well?).
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On July 10 2012 01:25 Rabiator wrote:
One way to "fix the siege tank" would be to remove friendly fire. Another way to "fix the siege tank" would be to give it the ability to attack a specific ground spot, which could enable you to keep choke points under constant fire instead of having all your tanks fire on the first few Zerglings in the incoming wave. Both of these together would make mech viable again (with forward bunkers and turrets and so on) to be able to contain an opponent. A little more damage for the tank wouldnt hurt either, oh and a tank should do more splash damage to NON-armored targets IMO.
One way to "fix the Colossus" would be to add friendly fire (and for Fungal Growth/Ultralisk splash as well?).
The Colossus isn't broken. It's very vulnerable in every matchup except PvP. The reason for this is that Protoss doesn't have an Infestor to lock down any units which move forward to attack the Colossus.
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On July 10 2012 01:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
I believe the main problem is a faulty design in the power vs mobility department.
Look at the siegetank. That's the kind of low mobility a high power unit should have. Unfortunatelly David Kim feels that a sieged position should be breakable head on. The current siege tank was balanced for Steppes of War. Thus in the current environment, it's power is too low for its mobility.
The broodlord has the right power level and is immobilish, but it's still a good unit, which on larger maps can be circumvented. The main problem here is the fact that infestors provide too much protection until broods move their asses. Otherwise it's a fine unit.
The colossus is on the other end of the scale. It has too much mobility. It is as fast as the rest of the army, needs no setup time and has the best splash without friendly fire. There is no tradeoff between power and mobility. I would be fine with a buffed colossus damage, if the move speed would be cut in half. Think AT-AT style movement. Or make is substantially weaker if you want it to be part of a deathball.
You shouldnt be comparing units colossus/broodlord/tank. Protoss core units are substantially weaker the core units of races and Colossus has weaknesses other then mobility (which isnt a weakness for it) It can be hit by both ground and air units. Mobility for Tank/Broodlord IS a weakness for them but it affects them differently because of the support units available to them. Broodlord with infestors can be very well protected. All in all you are correct thou when it comes to siege tank. Map design has limited siege tank effectiveness and could use a buff of some sort.
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When I was talking about the Ryung game that was to say that it isn't the large maps that are the problem, which is what someone suggested.
If anything it is the regular sized maps that zerg is most powerful on, terran still can't put on enough pressure before hive, and when the broodlords do come they are much harder to circumvent.
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On July 10 2012 01:28 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 01:25 Rabiator wrote:
One way to "fix the siege tank" would be to remove friendly fire. Another way to "fix the siege tank" would be to give it the ability to attack a specific ground spot, which could enable you to keep choke points under constant fire instead of having all your tanks fire on the first few Zerglings in the incoming wave. Both of these together would make mech viable again (with forward bunkers and turrets and so on) to be able to contain an opponent. A little more damage for the tank wouldnt hurt either, oh and a tank should do more splash damage to NON-armored targets IMO.
One way to "fix the Colossus" would be to add friendly fire (and for Fungal Growth/Ultralisk splash as well?). The Colossus isn't broken. It's very vulnerable in every matchup except PvP. The reason for this is that Protoss doesn't have an Infestor to lock down any units which move forward to attack the Colossus.
Protoss doesn't have a lock down unit? what category would you put forcefields in if its not a lockdown role?
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On July 10 2012 01:46 stevet159 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 01:28 Shiori wrote:On July 10 2012 01:25 Rabiator wrote:
One way to "fix the siege tank" would be to remove friendly fire. Another way to "fix the siege tank" would be to give it the ability to attack a specific ground spot, which could enable you to keep choke points under constant fire instead of having all your tanks fire on the first few Zerglings in the incoming wave. Both of these together would make mech viable again (with forward bunkers and turrets and so on) to be able to contain an opponent. A little more damage for the tank wouldnt hurt either, oh and a tank should do more splash damage to NON-armored targets IMO.
One way to "fix the Colossus" would be to add friendly fire (and for Fungal Growth/Ultralisk splash as well?). The Colossus isn't broken. It's very vulnerable in every matchup except PvP. The reason for this is that Protoss doesn't have an Infestor to lock down any units which move forward to attack the Colossus. Protoss doesn't have a lock down unit? what category would you put forcefields in if its not a lockdown role?
lockdown VS colossus, and a colossus can walk over forcefields <.<
edit: still the colossus is a colossal nuisance to the game.
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The Colossus is a stupid unit because being attackable by air is a stupid, gimmicky weakness. Only thing it leads to is Zerg and Terran having specialized anti-Colossus air units.
In all honesty, Infestors screw up the game a lot more overall, but at least they can allow for interesting gameplay at times. The Colossus is like the posterboy for everything wrong with SC2.
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On July 10 2012 01:28 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 01:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
I believe the main problem is a faulty design in the power vs mobility department.
Look at the siegetank. That's the kind of low mobility a high power unit should have. Unfortunatelly David Kim feels that a sieged position should be breakable head on. The current siege tank was balanced for Steppes of War. Thus in the current environment, it's power is too low for its mobility.
The broodlord has the right power level and is immobilish, but it's still a good unit, which on larger maps can be circumvented. The main problem here is the fact that infestors provide too much protection until broods move their asses. Otherwise it's a fine unit.
The colossus is on the other end of the scale. It has too much mobility. It is as fast as the rest of the army, needs no setup time and has the best splash without friendly fire. There is no tradeoff between power and mobility. I would be fine with a buffed colossus damage, if the move speed would be cut in half. Think AT-AT style movement. Or make is substantially weaker if you want it to be part of a deathball. You shouldnt be comparing units colossus/broodlord/tank. Protoss core units are substantially weaker the core units of races and Colossus has weaknesses other then mobility (which isnt a weakness for it) It can be hit by both ground and air units. Mobility for Tank/Broodlord IS a weakness for them but it affects them differently because of the support units available to them. Broodlord with infestors can be very well protected. All in all you are correct thou when it comes to siege tank. Map design has limited siege tank effectiveness and could use a buff of some sort.
Protoss core units aren't substantially weaker than other races, I mean they are early on, but late game they come into their own. You shouldn't be comparing units!
He is comparing army speed, which is the same as the slowest unit in the army.
Now this depends upon what you consider to be a capable army.
Adding broodlords to a zerg army makes it a lot stronger but a lot slower.
Adding tanks to a terran army makes it a bit stronger, but a lot slower.
I guess colossi are similar to medivacs, a unit that is added that makes the army a lot more powerful but no slower.
What terran lacks is a mobile unit that does strong AOE, does terran need this? hard to say. Perhaps they could buff HSM again.
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On July 10 2012 01:25 Rabiator wrote:
One way to "fix the siege tank" would be to remove friendly fire. Another way to "fix the siege tank" would be to give it the ability to attack a specific ground spot, which could enable you to keep choke points under constant fire instead of having all your tanks fire on the first few Zerglings in the incoming wave. Both of these together would make mech viable again (with forward bunkers and turrets and so on) to be able to contain an opponent. A little more damage for the tank wouldnt hurt either, oh and a tank should do more splash damage to NON-armored targets IMO.
One way to "fix the Colossus" would be to add friendly fire (and for Fungal Growth/Ultralisk splash as well?).
Colossi have the unique weakness of being the only simultaneously ground and air unit in the game, surely that counts for something when it comes to a weakness.
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On July 10 2012 02:06 Toadvine wrote:
The Colossus is a stupid unit because being attackable by air is a stupid, gimmicky weakness. Only thing it leads to is Zerg and Terran having specialized anti-Colossus air units.
In all honesty, Infestors screw up the game a lot more overall, but at least they can allow for interesting gameplay at times. The Colossus is like the posterboy for everything wrong with SC2.
Both units are stupid, but the Infestor has ruined every XvZ matchup, so I'd say it's a posterboy more than anything. Fungal Growth is the more poorly conceived spell in the entire game. Yes, worse than Forcefield.
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I always thought they should make the colossus more specialized.
Give it extra damage against light targets but less against armored, so thats its not super effective against all ground units. With the new hydra and marines/battle hellions being light units I'm sure it would still have plenty of use.
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After watching HSC V did you guys see really the true power that Nerchio showed with his BL/Inf/Crawler 15-20minutes timing,which none protoss was able to deflect effectively,they simply died,all of them.
Even with mothership spreaded BL's are just hard to kill.
MaNa pointed out that the perfect army vs this comp is gonna be Phoenix/HT ,and really i see no possible way of breaking a BL/infestor without air.
Are BLs really that good?Or the infestor is doing the job?
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EPT
