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@ysnake
i dont speak about a huge change on that so the zerg units buff is not necessary
well which the hatcheries we want to nerf zerg a bit here right without breaking the game right?so i think you could play around with the exact stats and stuff
describe your point on the 150 mineral queen pls i dont get it sorry
zerg is the macro oriented race and for my taste its too easy yes its difficult but i want it to be a little bit more to justify the reward zergs get
and again i dont talk about huge changes mb 1-2 hatches more in the lategame for zerg
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On July 10 2012 05:22 monkybone wrote:
Suggestion: why not make the queen armored? This way Zerg would like before have to spend more larva on zerglings, but now if the terran brings a few marauders. The problem right now is that the queen is uncontested in the early game. Being armored they will still counteract hellions like they do, and be effective defensive damage dealers to early marines like they are, but still have a weakness which must be made up for by additional lings, roaches or spines.
This will make a midgame marauder hellion pressure more effective, something which I believe would benefit the current metagame.
I would actually agree to this post. Marauder/hellion timings/allins were the thing that kept a overly greedy zerg at bay for most part, on the zerg part that was pretty easy to defend if you don't start going for something ridiculous. This would also affect the damage of tanks/immortals/stalkers against queens, but queens are not the primary unit to use against them.
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On July 10 2012 05:17 ysnake wrote:
You would have to change the entire game for this.
- First off, massively buff Zerg units.
- Second of all, decreasing Hatchery build time and cost, which would end up Zerg having even MORE bases.
- Queen already costs 150 Minerals, I am not sure about your point there.
- It is already difficult for a Zerg to keep production if they are not injecting right, especially with larvae-intense units like Zerglings and Roaches.
Overall, no.
Actually, the inject-nerfs is what a lof of players are talking about in current community. Although I feel that a lot of people will not agree about this, I think that this change is really necessary to deal with the zerg mid/late game instantaneous re-max from dropping 200 => ~80. I don't really understand things you say about buffing Zerg units, so, please, care to explain. I can't really understand how it is hard to "inject right" when you need to do is actually put your harchery queens on separate group and just notice the time when "inject" button becomes available, sorry, maybe I don't understand some sort of feature than only long-time Zerg players know.
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On July 10 2012 05:46 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 05:17 ysnake wrote:
You would have to change the entire game for this.
- First off, massively buff Zerg units.
- Second of all, decreasing Hatchery build time and cost, which would end up Zerg having even MORE bases.
- Queen already costs 150 Minerals, I am not sure about your point there.
- It is already difficult for a Zerg to keep production if they are not injecting right, especially with larvae-intense units like Zerglings and Roaches.
Overall, no.
Actually, the inject-nerfs is what a lof of players are talking about in current community. Although I feel that a lot of people will not agree about this, I think that this change is really necessary to deal with the zerg mid/late game instantaneous re-max from dropping 200 => ~80. I don't really understand things you say about buffing Zerg units, so, please, care to explain. I can't really understand how it is hard to "inject right" when you need to do is actually put your harchery queens on separate group and just notice the time when "inject" button becomes available, sorry, maybe I don't understand some sort of feature than only long-time Zerg players know.
Terran and Protoss players would hate to hear this, but Queen's spawn larva ability has the potential for slight buff.
It will be not in the form of usual buff but as a bug fix. It is already posted on official bug report.
Please check
Larva disappearing Glitch (not about 20th larva)
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On July 10 2012 05:37 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 05:33 DidYuhim wrote:On July 10 2012 05:22 monkybone wrote:
Suggestion: why not make the queen armored? This way Zerg would like before have to spend more larva on zerglings, but now if the terran brings a few marauders. The problem right now is that the queen is uncontested in the early game. Being armored they will still counteract hellions like they do, and be effective defensive damage dealers to early marines like they are, but still have a weakness which must be made up for by additional lings, roaches or spines.
This will make a midgame marauder hellion pressure more effective, something which I believe would benefit the current metagame. I would actually agree to this post. Marauder/hellion timings/allins were the thing that kept a overly greedy zerg at bay for most part, on the zerg part that was pretty easy to defend if you don't start going for something ridiculous. This would also affect the damage of tanks/immortals/stalkers against queens, but queens are not the primary unit to use against them. Yep, and in PvZ the queen mostly fights off zealots in the early game when it actually engages. And I don't think it will ruin the game because of the weakness against stalkers and immortals, but still, it's clear a nerf to Zerg in PvZ which must be taken in consideration. The queen needs a counter in TvZ. Rather than just being gradually phased out of an army composition.
Even though Stalkers would be slightly better against Queens (they only get +2.8 DPS), and Immortals would crush them, If Stalkers in large numbers, and Immortals, are near your queens then they are likely going to die anyways, and they don't contribute much to those fights as is. Although we would perhaps see more Warp Prism/Immortal harass (2 Immortals would 2-shot Queens instead of 4 shotting).
The biggest problem would be from Void Rays people! They get +6.7/13.3 DPS (depending on charge) vs Armored. Void rays would kill Queens 2x faster, and obliterate them if they were already charged up. With Stargate pressure vs Zerg, there is a very fine line between doing a little damage and doing game ending damage. Things spiral out of control very quickly, and I can't help but feel like a buff like killing Queens 2-3x faster would be a bit out of control. ZvP is already very fragile for Zergs at that timing.
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Just revert either 50 energy spawn or 5 range and see if it changes the current metagame for good.
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On July 10 2012 06:35 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 05:37 monkybone wrote:On July 10 2012 05:33 DidYuhim wrote:On July 10 2012 05:22 monkybone wrote:
Suggestion: why not make the queen armored? This way Zerg would like before have to spend more larva on zerglings, but now if the terran brings a few marauders. The problem right now is that the queen is uncontested in the early game. Being armored they will still counteract hellions like they do, and be effective defensive damage dealers to early marines like they are, but still have a weakness which must be made up for by additional lings, roaches or spines.
This will make a midgame marauder hellion pressure more effective, something which I believe would benefit the current metagame. I would actually agree to this post. Marauder/hellion timings/allins were the thing that kept a overly greedy zerg at bay for most part, on the zerg part that was pretty easy to defend if you don't start going for something ridiculous. This would also affect the damage of tanks/immortals/stalkers against queens, but queens are not the primary unit to use against them. Yep, and in PvZ the queen mostly fights off zealots in the early game when it actually engages. And I don't think it will ruin the game because of the weakness against stalkers and immortals, but still, it's clear a nerf to Zerg in PvZ which must be taken in consideration. The queen needs a counter in TvZ. Rather than just being gradually phased out of an army composition. Even though Stalkers would be slightly better against Queens (they only get +2.8 DPS), and Immortals would crush them, If Stalkers in large numbers, and Immortals, are near your queens then they are likely going to die anyways, and they don't contribute much to those fights as is. Although we would perhaps see more Warp Prism/Immortal harass (2 Immortals would 2-shot Queens instead of 4 shotting). The biggest problem would be from Void Rays people! They get +6.7/13.3 DPS (depending on charge) vs Armored. Void rays would kill Queens 2x faster, and obliterate them if they were already charged up. With Stargate pressure vs Zerg, there is a very fine line between doing a little damage and doing game ending damage. Things spiral out of control very quickly, and I can't help but feel like a buff like killing Queens 2-3x faster would be a bit out of control. ZvP is already very fragile for Zergs at that timing.
Indeed that would pose a problem. Maybe a flast hp buff would be better?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 10 2012 05:46 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 05:17 ysnake wrote:
You would have to change the entire game for this.
- First off, massively buff Zerg units.
- Second of all, decreasing Hatchery build time and cost, which would end up Zerg having even MORE bases.
- Queen already costs 150 Minerals, I am not sure about your point there.
- It is already difficult for a Zerg to keep production if they are not injecting right, especially with larvae-intense units like Zerglings and Roaches.
Overall, no.
Actually, the inject-nerfs is what a lof of players are talking about in current community. Although I feel that a lot of people will not agree about this, I think that this change is really necessary to deal with the zerg mid/late game instantaneous re-max from dropping 200 => ~80. I don't really understand things you say about buffing Zerg units, so, please, care to explain. I can't really understand how it is hard to "inject right" when you need to do is actually put your harchery queens on separate group and just notice the time when "inject" button becomes available, sorry, maybe I don't understand some sort of feature than only long-time Zerg players know.
Inject gives you 4 Larvae (4 units) every 40 seconds and Larvae generates up to 3 from the Hatchery itself, every 15 seconds you get 1 Larvae.
Imagine if you nerf the potential to inject and you want to make, let's say, 15 Zerglings (30, since 2 spawn from 1 Larvae), that's 15 Larvae, that's 3 Injects, that's 120 seconds of injecting. If you remove the whole inject system, how would it even work? Zerglings are very squishy units that are not good against ANY sort of AoE damage except fungals (they basically live with very low HP due to their regeneration). I agree the problem is the re-maxing, but people are WAY overexaggerating that fact.
No Zerg player can re-max their ultimate composition (they could), but they simply can't because it is too gas heavy (even if you're banked on 6 bases, you're going to fall short on gas in the late game). They can instantly remax the low tier units, and that's just how the race works.
Zerg production > Protoss production > Terran production
It is not herp-derp easy to play Zerg, that stands for all races, but like I said, no Zerg can re-max their entire army simply because it is too damn expensive. Have you ever seen it in a pro-game? No. Have I ever done it on the ladder? No.
And let's say that the Zerg actually CAN instantly remake his entire ultimate composition, that means you played that game poorly and let the Zerg get that economy. Remember, gglords cost A LOT of both resources and supply, and gglords are godhorrible on their own, they need back-up.
And by buffing Zerg units, let's say that it takes 50 seconds for the Larvae to pop now, that's 12 Larvae for 150 seconds. Let's take a comparison.
2 Marines=25 seconds (from 1 Barracks)
4 Marines=50 seconds
4 Zergling eggs=24 Seconds=50 seconds to pop=74 seconds
Do you see where I am getting at? You could actually SWARM the Zerg in the early to mid game simply because of how Zerg unit-creation-mechanic works. We either have to make workers or units, because we are limited by the number of larvae we have, while all other races can make both at the same time. The whole race is designed like that, most of the Zerg units are squishy and easily die, we HAVE to outnumber you. This is why Hellion harassment was too good, you would kill a large portion of Zerg's workers, and instead of units (even if they had 1k Minerals banked), they would have to make workers to supplement their loss and to keep the economy. This is in the early stages of the game, in the late-game, we get gglords, but quite frankly, Zerg does not have any other unit to deal with other races' units, Tier 3 or mass Tier 1/2.
Also, another thing which I had to grow doing (I was Diamond Protoss), was injects. Larvae gives you the amount of units you can have. While a battle is going on, I realize "crap, I'll need reinforcements here", a Zerg player must go from each Hatch to each Hatch and manually inject with every Queen (imagine if you had to go from each Rax to each Rax and manually click a Marine to be made, but again, Terran is very micro-intensive, while Zerg is not). Terran only needs to press their Rax hotkey and spam DDDDAAAA, while Protoss just goes W-ZZZSSSZZZSSS (again, this is mid game talk). This is not crying, I am just pointing out, larvae mechanic can work in your favor and it can work severely against you.
I said this in some other thread, the current problem is meta game and that both sides just want to max out (especially in PvZ) and then a-move and let's see who wins the game, and that leaves the Zerg player to inject without the need to waste larvae and they keep piling up (up to 19 per Hatchery), and usually, Zerg players have 4-5 Hatches with dedicated Queen injectors. The mechanic is not flawed, it fits the game perfectly, and again, no Zerg (only if you're playing drunk/high and thinking you're fighting chair dragons with leather dildo straps to their legs) can re-max their ultimate composition, they surely can re-max their Tier 1 units which are god-awful against huge bio balls, mech and Protoss death ball (which are almost all late-game compositions).
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On July 09 2012 20:33 Naphal wrote:
terran was balanced for the highest level of play before this patch, meaning good micro was no longer benefical, but a requirement for success, we have seen korean terrans dominating tournaments, and the other place where terrans were the majority... was the bronze league.
i liked being the minority in diamond, it did not matter that i could maybe reach high diamond with another race that is less micro reliant, because i had fun being aggressive in TvZ, preparing timings in TvP, and position tanks in TvT... and should i ever encounter something unbeatable, i could always trust a toptier terran to find an answer.
now however, even the toptier terrans do not look good, and do not BS me with "needs more time" these guys play 12+ hours a day, and when all the Slayers terrans cannot figure something out while practicing with coca, or the IM terrans with Nestea or so on, then maybe there IS an imbalance.
Blizzard themselves stated that terrans should aim for an early to midgame advantage in TvP, to fight on even terms in the lategame, now i would say that this is at least twice as important in TvZ, because their lategame is even harder to deal with due to the infestor, the ultra / BL switches and of course their production.
The problem ocurred, when terrans LAST option to control the zerg early game was taken away, the queen would now handle bunker- / hellion- / bansheepressure all alone, providing a "skip early game" option, and with creep out, terrans midgame timings, that used to follow no longer existing harrassment, are not very intimidating.
now terran can either allin or prepare for the lategame... with the most expensive, slowest and inflexible production facilities, many units that are designed as direct counters and thus have very limited purposes, and last but not least crappy T3.
Many may still remember the problem with TvP before the patch, well, below prolevel, that still exists, and now TvZ is even worse, at least you can fight TvP lategame IF you micro much more than the protoss, but no amount of micro can save you from zerg.
Theorycrafting will not help, of course a 3/3 200/200 BC Raven Thor Ghost with only 10 SCVs left will shred anything, but why would a Zerg / Protoss not attack once their deathball is assembled? and you better believe a terran on 5 bases has weakspots in the defense, and should you deny 2 expansions or get into the production, it is over.
so there are 2 solutions, if reverting some patches is out of the question:
1)buff terran lategame
2)make protoss and zerg harder to play
lastly as an afterthought, how can people point at the ryung vs drg match saying "THAT is your solution"?
drg played bad, he assembled a massive army only to have it sit in the middle while ryung had up to 60 supply of mm running wild across the map, then he lost BLs to a nuke, not to mention the infestors he lost...
and finally the last big fight, clumped BL charge into the biggest concave of terran ever seen, clumped infestors follow, corruptors come last, yes, under these circumstances seeker missile can be very good, but if a terran is supposed to split everything everywhere anytime, why should a zerg be successful with an obvious attackmove with the wrong order of units?
and lets not forget that ryung got last place in the group while drg and nestea advanced.
This is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen on TL in a while (that's saying something).
Anytime some is having difficulty with a particular race, the response is always "they just a-move!" And there race is always harder to play. The fact is, each race is different enough that they are not even comparible to say one is "easier" to play than the other. That is a very personal thing.
The other thing I always see is people complain that the other race does not "micro" as much as they do.
The 3rd thing we always see is people complaining that their units (especially tier 3) are not nearly as good as anyone elses.
We have seen all three of these complaints from all three races at different times. The solution has never been to make an easy cure-all, imba unit. The solution is to evolve.
Ravens are meant for support, BCs are meant to be supported by other units. What if somebody got 5 or 6 and supported them with 'rines and tanks? Could be awful, idk, be the effect with yamato cannon could function like a zerg or toss deathball, if that's what you want, but I doubt it is the best solution.
Sensor towers, strategic PFs, and Raven harass are all viable options that have largley been unexplored.
The poster also mention nukes. Nukes are excellent at forcing armies to move and gaining positioning. They are also cheap and are casted by a units you should be using more anyway. Experiment, don't just theory-craft.
My 2 cents.
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On July 10 2012 07:13 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 20:33 Naphal wrote:
terran was balanced for the highest level of play before this patch, meaning good micro was no longer benefical, but a requirement for success, we have seen korean terrans dominating tournaments, and the other place where terrans were the majority... was the bronze league.
i liked being the minority in diamond, it did not matter that i could maybe reach high diamond with another race that is less micro reliant, because i had fun being aggressive in TvZ, preparing timings in TvP, and position tanks in TvT... and should i ever encounter something unbeatable, i could always trust a toptier terran to find an answer.
now however, even the toptier terrans do not look good, and do not BS me with "needs more time" these guys play 12+ hours a day, and when all the Slayers terrans cannot figure something out while practicing with coca, or the IM terrans with Nestea or so on, then maybe there IS an imbalance.
Blizzard themselves stated that terrans should aim for an early to midgame advantage in TvP, to fight on even terms in the lategame, now i would say that this is at least twice as important in TvZ, because their lategame is even harder to deal with due to the infestor, the ultra / BL switches and of course their production.
The problem ocurred, when terrans LAST option to control the zerg early game was taken away, the queen would now handle bunker- / hellion- / bansheepressure all alone, providing a "skip early game" option, and with creep out, terrans midgame timings, that used to follow no longer existing harrassment, are not very intimidating.
now terran can either allin or prepare for the lategame... with the most expensive, slowest and inflexible production facilities, many units that are designed as direct counters and thus have very limited purposes, and last but not least crappy T3.
Many may still remember the problem with TvP before the patch, well, below prolevel, that still exists, and now TvZ is even worse, at least you can fight TvP lategame IF you micro much more than the protoss, but no amount of micro can save you from zerg.
Theorycrafting will not help, of course a 3/3 200/200 BC Raven Thor Ghost with only 10 SCVs left will shred anything, but why would a Zerg / Protoss not attack once their deathball is assembled? and you better believe a terran on 5 bases has weakspots in the defense, and should you deny 2 expansions or get into the production, it is over.
so there are 2 solutions, if reverting some patches is out of the question:
1)buff terran lategame
2)make protoss and zerg harder to play
lastly as an afterthought, how can people point at the ryung vs drg match saying "THAT is your solution"?
drg played bad, he assembled a massive army only to have it sit in the middle while ryung had up to 60 supply of mm running wild across the map, then he lost BLs to a nuke, not to mention the infestors he lost...
and finally the last big fight, clumped BL charge into the biggest concave of terran ever seen, clumped infestors follow, corruptors come last, yes, under these circumstances seeker missile can be very good, but if a terran is supposed to split everything everywhere anytime, why should a zerg be successful with an obvious attackmove with the wrong order of units?
and lets not forget that ryung got last place in the group while drg and nestea advanced. This is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen on TL in a while (that's saying something). Anytime some is having difficulty with a particular race, the response is always "they just a-move!" And there race is always harder to play. The fact is, each race is different enough that they are not even comparible to say one is "easier" to play than the other. That is a very personal thing. The other thing I always see is people complain that the other race does not "micro" as much as they do. The 3rd thing we always see is people complaining that their units (especially tier 3) are not nearly as good as anyone elses. We have seen all three of these complaints from all three races at different times. The solution has never been to make an easy cure-all, imba unit. The solution is to evolve. Ravens are meant for support, BCs are meant to be supported by other units. What if somebody got 5 or 6 and supported them with 'rines and tanks? Could be awful, idk, be the effect with yamato cannon could function like a zerg or toss deathball, if that's what you want, but I doubt it is the best solution. Sensor towers, strategic PFs, and Raven harass are all viable options that have largley been unexplored. The poster also mention nukes. Nukes are excellent at forcing armies to move and gaining positioning. They are also cheap and are casted by a units you should be using more anyway. Experiment, don't just theory-craft. My 2 cents.
Raven harass? How do you figure that's going to work?
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If they nerfed the maximum cap of larva per hatchery, it would solve a lot of problems. If they limited each hatchery to 7 larva, then the z has to use each inject instead of just stock piling. It doesn't effect the early mid game, unless the zerg is all inning. (which imho is doing to much damage anyways in tvz).
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 10 2012 07:21 WaKai wrote:
If they nerfed the maximum cap of larva per hatchery, it would solve a lot of problems. If they limited each hatchery to 7 larva, then the z has to use each inject instead of just stock piling. It doesn't effect the early mid game, unless the zerg is all inning. (which imho is doing to much damage anyways in tvz).
...no... read my post above
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On July 10 2012 07:13 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 20:33 Naphal wrote:
terran was balanced for the highest level of play before this patch, meaning good micro was no longer benefical, but a requirement for success, we have seen korean terrans dominating tournaments, and the other place where terrans were the majority... was the bronze league.
i liked being the minority in diamond, it did not matter that i could maybe reach high diamond with another race that is less micro reliant, because i had fun being aggressive in TvZ, preparing timings in TvP, and position tanks in TvT... and should i ever encounter something unbeatable, i could always trust a toptier terran to find an answer.
now however, even the toptier terrans do not look good, and do not BS me with "needs more time" these guys play 12+ hours a day, and when all the Slayers terrans cannot figure something out while practicing with coca, or the IM terrans with Nestea or so on, then maybe there IS an imbalance.
Blizzard themselves stated that terrans should aim for an early to midgame advantage in TvP, to fight on even terms in the lategame, now i would say that this is at least twice as important in TvZ, because their lategame is even harder to deal with due to the infestor, the ultra / BL switches and of course their production.
The problem ocurred, when terrans LAST option to control the zerg early game was taken away, the queen would now handle bunker- / hellion- / bansheepressure all alone, providing a "skip early game" option, and with creep out, terrans midgame timings, that used to follow no longer existing harrassment, are not very intimidating.
now terran can either allin or prepare for the lategame... with the most expensive, slowest and inflexible production facilities, many units that are designed as direct counters and thus have very limited purposes, and last but not least crappy T3.
Many may still remember the problem with TvP before the patch, well, below prolevel, that still exists, and now TvZ is even worse, at least you can fight TvP lategame IF you micro much more than the protoss, but no amount of micro can save you from zerg.
Theorycrafting will not help, of course a 3/3 200/200 BC Raven Thor Ghost with only 10 SCVs left will shred anything, but why would a Zerg / Protoss not attack once their deathball is assembled? and you better believe a terran on 5 bases has weakspots in the defense, and should you deny 2 expansions or get into the production, it is over.
so there are 2 solutions, if reverting some patches is out of the question:
1)buff terran lategame
2)make protoss and zerg harder to play
lastly as an afterthought, how can people point at the ryung vs drg match saying "THAT is your solution"?
drg played bad, he assembled a massive army only to have it sit in the middle while ryung had up to 60 supply of mm running wild across the map, then he lost BLs to a nuke, not to mention the infestors he lost...
and finally the last big fight, clumped BL charge into the biggest concave of terran ever seen, clumped infestors follow, corruptors come last, yes, under these circumstances seeker missile can be very good, but if a terran is supposed to split everything everywhere anytime, why should a zerg be successful with an obvious attackmove with the wrong order of units?
and lets not forget that ryung got last place in the group while drg and nestea advanced. This is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen on TL in a while (that's saying something). Anytime some is having difficulty with a particular race, the response is always "they just a-move!" And there race is always harder to play. The fact is, each race is different enough that they are not even comparible to say one is "easier" to play than the other. That is a very personal thing. The other thing I always see is people complain that the other race does not "micro" as much as they do. The 3rd thing we always see is people complaining that their units (especially tier 3) are not nearly as good as anyone elses. We have seen all three of these complaints from all three races at different times. The solution has never been to make an easy cure-all, imba unit. The solution is to evolve.
Yeah, we see those complaints all the time.
I just don't understand whenever I hear "you just a-move" from my opponent.
Is it supposed to be insult?
Or, did my opponent think Blizzard sould have given stim to my lings and ultras so that I didn't have to a-move?
But he/she says Zerg is too strong at the same time...
Then, wtf does it mean? I don't understand what he/she wants. I am confused all the time.
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Blizzard should definitely considering nerfing larva inject from 4 to 3. Top Koreans have suggested this too actually.
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On July 10 2012 07:31 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 07:13 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 09 2012 20:33 Naphal wrote:
terran was balanced for the highest level of play before this patch, meaning good micro was no longer benefical, but a requirement for success, we have seen korean terrans dominating tournaments, and the other place where terrans were the majority... was the bronze league.
i liked being the minority in diamond, it did not matter that i could maybe reach high diamond with another race that is less micro reliant, because i had fun being aggressive in TvZ, preparing timings in TvP, and position tanks in TvT... and should i ever encounter something unbeatable, i could always trust a toptier terran to find an answer.
now however, even the toptier terrans do not look good, and do not BS me with "needs more time" these guys play 12+ hours a day, and when all the Slayers terrans cannot figure something out while practicing with coca, or the IM terrans with Nestea or so on, then maybe there IS an imbalance.
Blizzard themselves stated that terrans should aim for an early to midgame advantage in TvP, to fight on even terms in the lategame, now i would say that this is at least twice as important in TvZ, because their lategame is even harder to deal with due to the infestor, the ultra / BL switches and of course their production.
The problem ocurred, when terrans LAST option to control the zerg early game was taken away, the queen would now handle bunker- / hellion- / bansheepressure all alone, providing a "skip early game" option, and with creep out, terrans midgame timings, that used to follow no longer existing harrassment, are not very intimidating.
now terran can either allin or prepare for the lategame... with the most expensive, slowest and inflexible production facilities, many units that are designed as direct counters and thus have very limited purposes, and last but not least crappy T3.
Many may still remember the problem with TvP before the patch, well, below prolevel, that still exists, and now TvZ is even worse, at least you can fight TvP lategame IF you micro much more than the protoss, but no amount of micro can save you from zerg.
What he's trying to say is that DRG was not microing anything, if DRG
Theorycrafting will not help, of course a 3/3 200/200 BC Raven Thor Ghost with only 10 SCVs left will shred anything, but why would a Zerg / Protoss not attack once their deathball is assembled? and you better believe a terran on 5 bases has weakspots in the defense, and should you deny 2 expansions or get into the production, it is over.
so there are 2 solutions, if reverting some patches is out of the question:
1)buff terran lategame
2)make protoss and zerg harder to play
lastly as an afterthought, how can people point at the ryung vs drg match saying "THAT is your solution"?
drg played bad, he assembled a massive army only to have it sit in the middle while ryung had up to 60 supply of mm running wild across the map, then he lost BLs to a nuke, not to mention the infestors he lost...
and finally the last big fight, clumped BL charge into the biggest concave of terran ever seen, clumped infestors follow, corruptors come last, yes, under these circumstances seeker missile can be very good, but if a terran is supposed to split everything everywhere anytime, why should a zerg be successful with an obvious attackmove with the wrong order of units?
and lets not forget that ryung got last place in the group while drg and nestea advanced. This is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen on TL in a while (that's saying something). Anytime some is having difficulty with a particular race, the response is always "they just a-move!" And there race is always harder to play. The fact is, each race is different enough that they are not even comparible to say one is "easier" to play than the other. That is a very personal thing. The other thing I always see is people complain that the other race does not "micro" as much as they do. The 3rd thing we always see is people complaining that their units (especially tier 3) are not nearly as good as anyone elses. We have seen all three of these complaints from all three races at different times. The solution has never been to make an easy cure-all, imba unit. The solution is to evolve. Yeah, we see those complaints all the time. I just don't understand whenever I hear "you just a-move" from my opponent. Is it supposed to be insult? Or, did my opponent think Blizzard sould have given stim to my lings and ultras so that I didn't have to a-move? But he/she says Zerg is too strong at the same time... Then, wtf does it mean? I don't understand what he/she wants. I am confused all the time.
What he's trying to say is that DRG was not microing anything, if DRG actually microed and engaged properly, with good unit spread it would have been a different story. Dude, you have 1 of the fatest units in the game, if you can get your lings to flank the t army and surrouned them, then you just increased your dps exponentially. I've played many zerg that just a move through a choke and fungal my units and still comes in on top. I mean, if you think that bad of a decision should be rewarded, then so be it, but their's obviously a problem with the mu right now.
EDIT: I reread your post again and have this to say, you can do so much more than just a move with your zerg army, you can posture with investors, set up flanks, slowly attack with your broods, making sure everything is in position. You CAN do more, but you decide not too because you don't have too. If you weren't so babysat, maybe you would understand.
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I had an idea while I was at work. I wanted to hear what you guys thought of it.
Problem: Raven HSM is a good ability, however it is limited by several things. #1, Ravens are fragile and the range is small, causing the raven to get messed up pretty bad when an HSM is shot. #2, HSM costs a lot of energy on a unit that could be using the energy for better things, like PDD and auto turret harass. #3 The raven is a support unit. HSM is a damage spell, and it doesn't quite thematically fit the raven (not really a problem, but just an observation)
Problem #2: Strike Cannon is not a very good ability. While there may be potential for the use of the ability, particularly in TvZ (Strike Cannons vs Ultras possibly), in the TvP MU, Thor energy is a major liability that causes mech to be even weaker versus just a few High Templars.
Possible Solution: Give the Thor an HSM equivalent researchable instead of strike cannons. Since Thors get in the thick of things, the short range of HSM would not be a problem. In addition, thors can really tank a lot of hits, so they would be more than likely to be able to aim it well and deal a good amount of damage.
Side effect: Neural parasite would be stronger versus thors with HSM, as HSM could be turned against you. TvT tank viking wars would be changed completely, as a Thor could fire a HSM towards the vikings and forget about it. Ravens would still be useful but mostly for PDD. Since they would be short an ability, giving them a new ability wouldn't be out of question (after all, we are removing strike cannons). I personally think a spell capacitor type ability would be neat and fit the raven. This ability would absorb some spells being cast at an area around the raven. This would help mitigate fungals, storms, Thor HSMs and Force fields. The exact ability would need to be discussed and balanced, but my main point here is changing the unit that casts HSM.
So anyway, this is just a thought. I'm sure there are a thousand side effects I haven't thought of.
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On July 10 2012 07:56 boredrex wrote:
I had an idea while I was at work. I wanted to hear what you guys thought of it.
Problem: Raven HSM is a good ability, however it is limited by several things. #1, Ravens are fragile and the range is small, causing the raven to get messed up pretty bad when an HSM is shot. #2, HSM costs a lot of energy on a unit that could be using the energy for better things, like PDD and auto turret harass. #3 The raven is a support unit. HSM is a damage spell, and it doesn't quite thematically fit the raven (not really a problem, but just an observation)
Problem #2: Strike Cannon is not a very good ability. While there may be potential for the use of the ability, particularly in TvZ (Strike Cannons vs Ultras possibly), in the TvP MU, Thor energy is a major liability that causes mech to be even weaker versus just a few High Templars.
Possible Solution: Give the Thor an HSM equivalent researchable instead of strike cannons. Since Thors get in the thick of things, the short range of HSM would not be a problem. In addition, thors can really tank a lot of hits, so they would be more than likely to be able to aim it well and deal a good amount of damage.
Side effect: Neural parasite would be stronger versus thors with HSM, as HSM could be turned against you. TvT tank viking wars would be changed completely, as a Thor could fire a HSM towards the vikings and forget about it. Ravens would still be useful but mostly for PDD. Since they would be short an ability, giving them a new ability wouldn't be out of question (after all, we are removing strike cannons). I personally think a spell capacitor type ability would be neat and fit the raven. This ability would absorb some spells being cast at an area around the raven. This would help mitigate fungals, storms, Thor HSMs and Force fields. The exact ability would need to be discussed and balanced, but my main point here is changing the unit that casts HSM.
So anyway, this is just a thought. I'm sure there are a thousand side effects I haven't thought of.
LOL This would be amazing in so many ways. It would make thors counter mutas even more (That is if the HSM actually hits.) However, it would still pose a problem in TvP because semi decent HT control would still slaughter thors.
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On July 10 2012 07:13 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 20:33 Naphal wrote:
terran was balanced for the highest level of play before this patch, meaning good micro was no longer benefical, but a requirement for success, we have seen korean terrans dominating tournaments, and the other place where terrans were the majority... was the bronze league.
i liked being the minority in diamond, it did not matter that i could maybe reach high diamond with another race that is less micro reliant, because i had fun being aggressive in TvZ, preparing timings in TvP, and position tanks in TvT... and should i ever encounter something unbeatable, i could always trust a toptier terran to find an answer.
now however, even the toptier terrans do not look good, and do not BS me with "needs more time" these guys play 12+ hours a day, and when all the Slayers terrans cannot figure something out while practicing with coca, or the IM terrans with Nestea or so on, then maybe there IS an imbalance.
Blizzard themselves stated that terrans should aim for an early to midgame advantage in TvP, to fight on even terms in the lategame, now i would say that this is at least twice as important in TvZ, because their lategame is even harder to deal with due to the infestor, the ultra / BL switches and of course their production.
The problem ocurred, when terrans LAST option to control the zerg early game was taken away, the queen would now handle bunker- / hellion- / bansheepressure all alone, providing a "skip early game" option, and with creep out, terrans midgame timings, that used to follow no longer existing harrassment, are not very intimidating.
now terran can either allin or prepare for the lategame... with the most expensive, slowest and inflexible production facilities, many units that are designed as direct counters and thus have very limited purposes, and last but not least crappy T3.
Many may still remember the problem with TvP before the patch, well, below prolevel, that still exists, and now TvZ is even worse, at least you can fight TvP lategame IF you micro much more than the protoss, but no amount of micro can save you from zerg.
Theorycrafting will not help, of course a 3/3 200/200 BC Raven Thor Ghost with only 10 SCVs left will shred anything, but why would a Zerg / Protoss not attack once their deathball is assembled? and you better believe a terran on 5 bases has weakspots in the defense, and should you deny 2 expansions or get into the production, it is over.
so there are 2 solutions, if reverting some patches is out of the question:
1)buff terran lategame
2)make protoss and zerg harder to play
lastly as an afterthought, how can people point at the ryung vs drg match saying "THAT is your solution"?
drg played bad, he assembled a massive army only to have it sit in the middle while ryung had up to 60 supply of mm running wild across the map, then he lost BLs to a nuke, not to mention the infestors he lost...
and finally the last big fight, clumped BL charge into the biggest concave of terran ever seen, clumped infestors follow, corruptors come last, yes, under these circumstances seeker missile can be very good, but if a terran is supposed to split everything everywhere anytime, why should a zerg be successful with an obvious attackmove with the wrong order of units?
and lets not forget that ryung got last place in the group while drg and nestea advanced. This is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen on TL in a while (that's saying something). Anytime some is having difficulty with a particular race, the response is always "they just a-move!" And there race is always harder to play. The fact is, each race is different enough that they are not even comparible to say one is "easier" to play than the other. That is a very personal thing. The other thing I always see is people complain that the other race does not "micro" as much as they do. The 3rd thing we always see is people complaining that their units (especially tier 3) are not nearly as good as anyone elses. We have seen all three of these complaints from all three races at different times. The solution has never been to make an easy cure-all, imba unit. The solution is to evolve. Ravens are meant for support, BCs are meant to be supported by other units. What if somebody got 5 or 6 and supported them with 'rines and tanks? Could be awful, idk, be the effect with yamato cannon could function like a zerg or toss deathball, if that's what you want, but I doubt it is the best solution. Sensor towers, strategic PFs, and Raven harass are all viable options that have largley been unexplored. The poster also mention nukes. Nukes are excellent at forcing armies to move and gaining positioning. They are also cheap and are casted by a units you should be using more anyway. Experiment, don't just theory-craft. My 2 cents.
the truth must hurt...
terran actually has the worst t3
terran actually needs to micro the most
terran really has expensive / slow / inflexible production
combined with all the nerfs to our harrassment and early to midgame possibilities, we have a problem now, a problem that only gets mitigated at the highest level through multitasking and micro up to a point where the zergs and protoss have difficulties keeping up (not because they are worse, because their units do not allow for it)
edit: still no excuse for the terrible final engagement i talked about.
so i think my point still stands, either a higher skill ceiling for protoss and zerg, or a comparable lategame for terrans, your post really is just vague ramblings, and i do not theorycraft, even though my 20+ games a week in diamond league really do not account for anything, it may just be enough to see that being defensive is no good and a terran late lategame army would require surviving the protoss and zerg lategame in decent condition, where my exact problem lies.
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On July 10 2012 08:02 Inquisitor1323 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2012 07:56 boredrex wrote:
I had an idea while I was at work. I wanted to hear what you guys thought of it.
Problem: Raven HSM is a good ability, however it is limited by several things. #1, Ravens are fragile and the range is small, causing the raven to get messed up pretty bad when an HSM is shot. #2, HSM costs a lot of energy on a unit that could be using the energy for better things, like PDD and auto turret harass. #3 The raven is a support unit. HSM is a damage spell, and it doesn't quite thematically fit the raven (not really a problem, but just an observation)
Problem #2: Strike Cannon is not a very good ability. While there may be potential for the use of the ability, particularly in TvZ (Strike Cannons vs Ultras possibly), in the TvP MU, Thor energy is a major liability that causes mech to be even weaker versus just a few High Templars.
Possible Solution: Give the Thor an HSM equivalent researchable instead of strike cannons. Since Thors get in the thick of things, the short range of HSM would not be a problem. In addition, thors can really tank a lot of hits, so they would be more than likely to be able to aim it well and deal a good amount of damage.
Side effect: Neural parasite would be stronger versus thors with HSM, as HSM could be turned against you. TvT tank viking wars would be changed completely, as a Thor could fire a HSM towards the vikings and forget about it. Ravens would still be useful but mostly for PDD. Since they would be short an ability, giving them a new ability wouldn't be out of question (after all, we are removing strike cannons). I personally think a spell capacitor type ability would be neat and fit the raven. This ability would absorb some spells being cast at an area around the raven. This would help mitigate fungals, storms, Thor HSMs and Force fields. The exact ability would need to be discussed and balanced, but my main point here is changing the unit that casts HSM. So anyway, this is just a thought. I'm sure there are a thousand side effects I haven't thought of. LOL This would be amazing in so many ways. It would make thors counter mutas even more (That is if the HSM actually hits.) However, it would still pose a problem in TvP because semi decent HT control would still slaughter thors.
True, but not any more than they already do. To be honest, it is mostly a change to help TvZ, and to shake things up in TvT. TvP would probably be unaffected at the moment, because HSM just doesn't do enough damage, but it could soften up the death ball a little.
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EPT
