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On October 18 2011 07:22 highsis wrote:
Terran > Zerg
Terran >>> Protoss
Zerg >> Protoss
1) EMP range 10 - > 9 (for PvT)
2) Khaydarin Amulet back with 300/300 cost (for PvT)
3) Reactor production speed 100% - > 90% of the original, build time from 50 - > 40 sec (for TvZ)
..... and we are done.
I'm a P player in Masters and I think that one of the best patch changes was the removal of Khaydarin Amulet because it was definitely way too OP, especially in the late game (ur usually floating a lot of gas and have a lot of gateways - terran could crush ur army and u just warped in 6-8 HTs and stormed the shit out of him and he lost.... too imba)
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On October 17 2011 12:10 robinroz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 22:02 Blasterion wrote:On October 16 2011 19:29 robinroz wrote:
Problem: Protoss needs to be able to scout better in the early game. Hallucination is a nice option but it costs 100/100 and precious early-game Sentry energy.
Solution: Move Hallucination to the Nexus.
Side Effects: Another early scouting option (makes 1-1-1 easier to hold!). Also gives another use to Nexus energy instead of pure chronoboost, consequently adding a decision-making aspect.
Still doesn't solve the problem of forcing the Protoss to go robo-tech for detection, but a step in the right direction? Side effect: Disruption of probe production I see that as a problem, That's one of the reason for the unpopularity of Motherships, How do you address that? Sorry for not including that as a side effect, my bad. It only disrupts chronoboost, though, so you might not be able to produce probes faster, but you still can, unlike in the case of the Mothership. Some people have also suggested moving the Observer to the Nexus (unlocked by Robo) but THAT would disrupt probe production more so than this. . Or blizzard could make nexus capable of dual unit prod... Terran already can so don't call it impossible. Just requires two unit rows, as nexus would be producing two types of unit. Also would need segregation or people would double up on probes. Blizzard could do it all but I don't feel it's necessary. Besides, I like to go robo ;-)
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Just going to leave this here.
DES: If you do change over you starcraft 2, would you continue to play protoss?
Bisu: If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)
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On October 17 2011 21:20 Brotocol wrote:
* If not MULES, then what else would explain 1base Terran economy keeping up with early 2base from Protoss? Personally, I'm sure something about MULES is not being accounted for, somewhere... Hmm.
Fast-expanding is, simply put, quite expensive. You pay 400 for the Nexus and you only start to gain benefits if you have more than 16 workers mining minerals. And even slightly above the 16 (16~20 or so) the benefits of spreading your workers between 2 bases are not that large. It takes quite some time before you start to break even on your investment. In general, when the typical 1-1-1 hits you should already be profiting from a very early Nexus, but the gains aren't as big as you'd imagine.
Also, Terran cutting SCV production for an all-in can be lucrative. One worker costs 62.5 minerals (base cost + supply cost) and it takes 1.5 ingame minutes to earn this back. But this value assumes that you're mining 40 minerals per minute per worker, which is only true if you're below or at optimal saturation (16 mineral miners). If you go above this, the income per worker goes down and the time it takes to earn back the investment of adding an additional workers goes up. Cutting SCVs 1.5~2 ingame minutes before the last production round that will be included in your all-in starts, will give you a decent advantage in money spent on units compared to a more economy-focussed opponent.
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David Kim just sayed EMP radius to be nerfed and protoss forge upgrade costs to decrease
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A lot of info on TL's twitter.
Looks like Protoss' gonna get some love. ♥
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Also, terran gets to scout protoss for much longer in the early game, because usually the 1st marine ends probe scouting for protoss, but a zealot doesn't stop an scv from scouting.
Yea but the only thing Terran can learn in time is whether hes taking an early second gas.
Protoss can stay inside until the Terran makes the 2nd supply depot vs second barracks decision, and can see if Terran is making a techlab or reactor. Basically Protoss should know if Terran is going:
1 rax gasless
2 rax, reactor or techlab first
If its 1 gas, 1 barracks, assume 1/1/1 and get a fast observer.
In my opinion, the responses to scouting Terran for Protoss are more laid out. Terran has to decide whether he is 1/1/1, 2 raxing or gasless expanding before he fully scouts protoss. Nexus energy is not much of a tell for four gate.
People think gasless expand is solid, but in reality 4 gate Warp Prism defeats it easily.
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I really miss the amulet seriously
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Terran only needs 1 unit to beat zerg and that is ghosts. When terran gets to the late game, an army made up of 100% ghosts crushes anything if terran is evenly skilled at micro vs his zerg opponent (snipe rapes broods, mutas, ultras, and overseers, emp nulls infestors, cloak hides them from anything else). I mean I play zerg so I admit I am subject to bias, but this seems broken to me (also, I say even level of micro skill because if MVP uses only ghosts and destroys a platinum level zerg this doesnt give any info on a potential inbalance in the game, rather, it gives info on an inbalance in the players skill level).
Pre 1.4 it was sometimes possible (although still very very hard with an even level of micro skill) to nutral a ghost and emp other ghosts if terran clumped his ghosts together and you valued trying to nutral a ghost and emp other ghosts over microing the rest of your army. Now, however, with an even level of micro skill, it is impossible once the players surpass a critical skill level (with an even level skill of micro at bronze, you should see people nutraling ghosts b/c both players are not good. however once both players pass a critical skill level, you should not see this happen simply because one spell out-ranges the other).
I wish it could end here, but I dont think that it can. Terrans have figured out over the course of time where the best places are to hide the red dots of an incoming nuke. I don't think anyone who has played zerg needs any explanation as to the devastation nukes cause to an economy in the late game. And remember, all of the above -- the cloak, the sniping of the the powerful zerg units, the nullification of detection (sniping overseers, emping infestors), and the nukes -- are all from one unit.
I am not saying that ghosts will always win therefore they are imba. What I am saying is that in an evenly matched tvz game which is at a high enough level, there is an imbalance (at least, in my personal opinion).
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Check above. RegionLOL is right. This also applies to ZvP in some matters. Protoss can just storm the zerg army continously and decrease their effectiveness just like EMP in PvT but storms actually kill zerg units. Zerg has to use brute strenght and just rally in units to beat storm and snipe we dont have anti caster units like ghost and HT and I think that zerg needs an anti-caster unit to fix this. It's broken and I don't understand how people can't see that.
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On October 23 2011 21:29 Olsson wrote:
Check above. RegionLOL is right. This also applies to ZvP in some matters. Protoss can just storm the zerg army continously and decrease their effectiveness just like EMP in PvT but storms actually kill zerg units. Zerg has to use brute strenght and just rally in units to beat storm and snipe we dont have anti caster units like ghost and HT and I think that zerg needs an anti-caster unit to fix this. It's broken and I don't understand how people can't see that.
No it don't. Protoss like to whine, but your entire late game don't get crushed by one unit like the zerg. Sure, EMP is beastly on a protoss army but you can still counter ghost with templar or just split your army.
I'm really interested at how people think that zerg is OP against protoss - even more OP than terran against zerg. ZvT is balanced until late game, then if the terran can make a ghost switch, you can't fight him head on, you can't use your end game units either.
ZvP is kinda shakky and maybe zerg is a bit favored, but not by much.
PvT is kinda balanced aside from certain cheesy build (1-1-1 all in) and the cost ineffectiveness of the gateway army.
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On October 23 2011 21:36 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 21:29 Olsson wrote:
Check above. RegionLOL is right. This also applies to ZvP in some matters. Protoss can just storm the zerg army continously and decrease their effectiveness just like EMP in PvT but storms actually kill zerg units. Zerg has to use brute strenght and just rally in units to beat storm and snipe we dont have anti caster units like ghost and HT and I think that zerg needs an anti-caster unit to fix this. It's broken and I don't understand how people can't see that.
No it don't. Protoss like to whine, but your entire late game don't get crushed by one unit like the zerg. Sure, EMP is beastly on a protoss army but you can still counter ghost with templar or just split your army. I'm really interested at how people think that zerg is OP against protoss - even more OP than terran against zerg. ZvT is balanced until late game, then if the terran can make a ghost switch, you can't fight him head on, you can't use your end game units either. ZvP is kinda shakky and maybe zerg is a bit favored, but not by much. PvT is kinda balanced aside from certain cheesy build (1-1-1 all in) and the cost ineffectiveness of the gateway army.
Read again what I said. In PvT terran can emp the protoss army and make them not as combat effective, though there is a counter. In PvZ protoss can storm the zerg army and with one storm do as much damage as an EMP does except it also damages the HP. Zerg can't do anything about it but using brute force, meaning just rallying heavy HP units like roach and ultra which both are very supply inefficient.
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How's this for a change to ghosts to help zvt lategame:
Reduce snipe damage vs massive units (or has this been suggested already?)
AFAIK, this will only affect broodlords and ultralisks.
Infestors are another matter entirely, but at least this would mitigate how poorly broodlords fare against cloaked ghosts. Considering vikings do quite well against broodlords or even corrupters (with marine support especially), I don't think we need two units that hardcounter our best way to break terran siege lines
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Edited out: wrong thread.
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On October 23 2011 21:51 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 21:36 WhiteDog wrote:On October 23 2011 21:29 Olsson wrote:
Check above. RegionLOL is right. This also applies to ZvP in some matters. Protoss can just storm the zerg army continously and decrease their effectiveness just like EMP in PvT but storms actually kill zerg units. Zerg has to use brute strenght and just rally in units to beat storm and snipe we dont have anti caster units like ghost and HT and I think that zerg needs an anti-caster unit to fix this. It's broken and I don't understand how people can't see that.
No it don't. Protoss like to whine, but your entire late game don't get crushed by one unit like the zerg. Sure, EMP is beastly on a protoss army but you can still counter ghost with templar or just split your army. I'm really interested at how people think that zerg is OP against protoss - even more OP than terran against zerg. ZvT is balanced until late game, then if the terran can make a ghost switch, you can't fight him head on, you can't use your end game units either. ZvP is kinda shakky and maybe zerg is a bit favored, but not by much. PvT is kinda balanced aside from certain cheesy build (1-1-1 all in) and the cost ineffectiveness of the gateway army. Read again what I said. In PvT terran can emp the protoss army and make them not as combat effective, though there is a counter. In PvZ protoss can storm the zerg army and with one storm do as much damage as an EMP does except it also damages the HP. Zerg can't do anything about it but using brute force, meaning just rallying heavy HP units like roach and ultra which both are very supply inefficient.
You can micro out of a storm which can 1/4 or 1/ damage. You can't dodge an EMP...
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On October 18 2011 10:02 Hashmeister wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 07:22 highsis wrote:
Terran > Zerg
Terran >>> Protoss
Zerg >> Protoss
1) EMP range 10 - > 9 (for PvT)
2) Khaydarin Amulet back with 300/300 cost (for PvT)
3) Reactor production speed 100% - > 90% of the original, build time from 50 - > 40 sec (for TvZ)
..... and we are done. I'm a P player in Masters and I think that one of the best patch changes was the removal of Khaydarin Amulet because it was definitely way too OP, especially in the late game (ur usually floating a lot of gas and have a lot of gateways - terran could crush ur army and u just warped in 6-8 HTs and stormed the shit out of him and he lost.... too imba)
thx for warning your only a master league player.
what about ghosts with moebius reator? protoss could crush ur army and terran just trains 6-8 ghosts and emp the shit out of toss.... not too imba ???
dont tell me now ghosts take 30 secs train or something, warpgates have a cooldown as well.
or warping in close to the battle. this is how toss works. therefor terran has its own race advantages like flying buildings, mules, bunkers and repair.
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On October 18 2011 07:22 ypslala wrote:
what about ghosts with moebius reator? protoss could crush ur army and terran just trains 6-8 ghosts and emp the shit out of toss.... not too imba ???
dont tell me now ghosts take 30 secs train or something, warpgates have a cooldown as well.
or warping in close to the battle. this is how toss works. therefor terran has its own race advantages like flying buildings, mules, bunkers and repair.
Except EMP can't kill anything. Storm an army 5 times, and it dies. Emp an army five times, and you still have an army. Protoss cannot lose in that situation like terran could.
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On October 22 2011 08:58 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +Also, terran gets to scout protoss for much longer in the early game, because usually the 1st marine ends probe scouting for protoss, but a zealot doesn't stop an scv from scouting. Yea but the only thing Terran can learn in time is whether hes taking an early second gas. Protoss can stay inside until the Terran makes the 2nd supply depot vs second barracks decision, and can see if Terran is making a techlab or reactor. Basically Protoss should know if Terran is going: 1 rax gasless 2 rax, reactor or techlab first If its 1 gas, 1 barracks, assume 1/1/1 and get a fast observer. In my opinion, the responses to scouting Terran for Protoss are more laid out. Terran has to decide whether he is 1/1/1, 2 raxing or gasless expanding before he fully scouts protoss. Nexus energy is not much of a tell for four gate. People think gasless expand is solid, but in reality 4 gate Warp Prism defeats it easily.
I don't think you can scout the tech or reactor. Your marine pops out before then. I don't think you can scout 1rax FE either, because you can wall up before the probe comes in by building a supply depot at 14 supply and that should prevent scouting but I'm not 100% sure.
1gas/1rax is not even close to an indication of 1-1-1. It could be a 2/3rax push, marauder expand, or a 1-1-1 and it's variants. Assuming is bad.
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No protoss left in Korea WCG round of 8. No protoss advanced from first two AOL groups. I can't imagine October's Korean win rates are going to look too stellar when they come out either.
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On November 05 2011 13:00 blinkingangels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 07:22 ypslala wrote:
what about ghosts with moebius reator? protoss could crush ur army and terran just trains 6-8 ghosts and emp the shit out of toss.... not too imba ???
dont tell me now ghosts take 30 secs train or something, warpgates have a cooldown as well.
or warping in close to the battle. this is how toss works. therefor terran has its own race advantages like flying buildings, mules, bunkers and repair.
Except EMP can't kill anything. Storm an army 5 times, and it dies. Emp an army five times, and you still have an army. Protoss cannot lose in that situation like terran could.
I'm so tired of this argument. Both sides of it are stupid. They aren't the same thing and therefore direct comparisons are pointless. Storm does avoidable damage over time, EMP does unavoidable instant damage but can't kill. They. Aren't. The. Same.
People need to instead look at their interactions with the army as a whole rather than "Storm does X emp does Y, IMBA!!".
Balance does not occur in a spherical vacuum, you have to try to account for everything.
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EPT
