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On October 17 2011 20:42 Twinmold wrote:
Mules aren't what make Terran allins strong. Their only benefits over 4 regular workers are that they allow supersaturation and that they aren't affected as much by death. Neither of which come into play during an allin.
last i checked mules are worth ~7 workers and they allow a terran to go 6 rax off 1 base and pull all scvs but 4scvs + 1 mule to support 6 rax. that sounds fair. yes?
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On October 17 2011 15:22 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 14:50 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 08:58 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 06:51 SeaSwift wrote:On October 17 2011 06:35 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 06:24 Toadvine wrote:On October 17 2011 06:03 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 05:47 Toadvine wrote:
About the Sentry suggestion - are you actually saying that Protoss all-ins are too good against Terran? Hongun is arguably only in Code S because of Protoss all-ins against Terran. He wins even when Terran knows they're coming... I see your HongUnPrime, and raise you a PuMa. Honestly though, like 1/3rd of the Terrans in Code S are only capable of 1 base all-ining in TvP. And HongUn doesn't even do all-ins with mass Sentries, he's more of a "2-3Gate VR, and maybe win, if not do as much damage as possible, and transition" guy. He's also in the Up/Down matches, not in Code S. You said all-in. MC does sentry all-ins quite a bit, and is quite successful with them. If he didn't go making things hard for himself by willingly putting himself into the hardest group in Code S, we'd likely see him in GSL still. MC does sentry TIMING PUSHES quite a bit. All-in is like a 4gate or an Xgate with no economy. MC consistently makes scary pushes, but doesn't very often actually all-in. There is normally at least some economy behind it. Yea, this is fair, timing pushes that are as effective as all-is. That's the problem with Protoss which nobody wants to talk about or deal with because in ONE single tournament they can't get their damn act together. I can't believe you're attributing this to Protoss. Protoss actually takes a hit when a P push is thwarted. That's actually a major problem with Terran... Terran all-ins with SCVs brought off the line aren't even all in because of mules. If you've been paying attention, like, at all, the problem with Terran pseudo-all-ins is that you can thwart them against all odds, but the Terran just does a second and even a third push and then wins the game. edit: regarding mules... I'd like to point your attention to this post at the top of page 140: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=140How can anyone argue that this is fair/balanced? Do the numbers yourself. Constant MULE usage has the mineral income of 4.5 SCVs. The conversion of a CC to an OC takes a little more time than training 2 SCVs. Thus if you constantly use MULES you can pull TWO extra SCVs for an attack compared to other races. So if you see a T pulling 12 SCVs from the line, he is as all-in as a P or Z pulling 10 workers for an attack. The only power of the MULE is the supersaturation (which does not come into play in the scenario you are complaining about), because else having 2 extra mineral only workers is a little weak in comparison to chronoboost and larva inject, isn't it?
Your reasoning is just completely wrong.
10 SCV mine as fast as 10 probes. So if terran pull 12 SCVs from the line, he is obviously more all in than P or Z pulling 10 workers for an attack, unless you admit terran is OP.
I'd even say that pulling 10 SCV is more all in than pulling 10 probes/drones, because the other races can rebuild 10 workers faster.
Also, you say that mules only advantage is oversaturation, but this is wrong using your maths. If getting mules is as efficient as 4.5 SCV. It's clearly advantageous for terran to get that much for only 150 minerals, while for other races 4.5 workers costs roughly 280 minerals (counting the supply). This clearly counts in early games timing.
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On October 17 2011 20:45 Kvz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 20:42 Twinmold wrote:
Mules aren't what make Terran allins strong. Their only benefits over 4 regular workers are that they allow supersaturation and that they aren't affected as much by death. Neither of which come into play during an allin.
last i checked mules are worth ~7 workers and they allow a terran to go 6 rax off 1 base and pull all scvs but 4scvs + 1 mule to support 6 rax. that sounds fair. yes?
Last time you didn't checked you mean. yes ?
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On October 17 2011 20:45 Kvz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 20:42 Twinmold wrote:
Mules aren't what make Terran allins strong. Their only benefits over 4 regular workers are that they allow supersaturation and that they aren't affected as much by death. Neither of which come into play during an allin.
last i checked mules are worth ~7 workers and they allow a terran to go 6 rax off 1 base and pull all scvs but 4scvs + 1 mule to support 6 rax. that sounds fair. yes?
Yea, like I said earlier - I'm sure the math given by the previous posters is off somehow, although I can't seem to place it. But it allows T to rival the production capacity of a Protoss who goes Nexus first.
The "loss of 2 workers" argument is weak imho. There's nothing permanent about it. Do all Terrans stop making workers as soon as the OC is done? It's not a loss - it's a delay. Mules bridge the gap initially. But then they go far beyond that.
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On October 17 2011 17:38 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 15:30 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 15:22 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 14:50 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 08:58 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 06:51 SeaSwift wrote:On October 17 2011 06:35 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 06:24 Toadvine wrote:On October 17 2011 06:03 aksfjh wrote:
[quote]
Hongun is arguably only in Code S because of Protoss all-ins against Terran. He wins even when Terran knows they're coming... I see your HongUnPrime, and raise you a PuMa. Honestly though, like 1/3rd of the Terrans in Code S are only capable of 1 base all-ining in TvP. And HongUn doesn't even do all-ins with mass Sentries, he's more of a "2-3Gate VR, and maybe win, if not do as much damage as possible, and transition" guy. He's also in the Up/Down matches, not in Code S. You said all-in. MC does sentry all-ins quite a bit, and is quite successful with them. If he didn't go making things hard for himself by willingly putting himself into the hardest group in Code S, we'd likely see him in GSL still. MC does sentry TIMING PUSHES quite a bit. All-in is like a 4gate or an Xgate with no economy. MC consistently makes scary pushes, but doesn't very often actually all-in. There is normally at least some economy behind it. Yea, this is fair, timing pushes that are as effective as all-is. That's the problem with Protoss which nobody wants to talk about or deal with because in ONE single tournament they can't get their damn act together. I can't believe you're attributing this to Protoss. Protoss actually takes a hit when a P push is thwarted. That's actually a major problem with Terran... Terran all-ins with SCVs brought off the line aren't even all in because of mules. If you've been paying attention, like, at all, the problem with Terran pseudo-all-ins is that you can thwart them against all odds, but the Terran just does a second and even a third push and then wins the game. edit: regarding mules... I'd like to point your attention to this post at the top of page 140: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=140How can anyone argue that this is fair/balanced? Do the numbers yourself. Constant MULE usage has the mineral income of 4.5 SCVs. The conversion of a CC to an OC takes a little more time than training 2 SCVs. Thus if you constantly use MULES you can pull TWO extra SCVs for an attack compared to other races. So if you see a T pulling 12 SCVs from the line, he is as all-in as a P or Z pulling 10 workers for an attack. The only power of the MULE is the supersaturation (which does not come into play in the scenario you are complaining about), because else having 2 extra mineral only workers is a little weak in comparison to chronoboost and larva inject, isn't it? Mule is weak compared to chrono and larva inject? Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. I'm certain there are parts of the equation that your list is missing. For example, it's not "constant" use of Mules that is required for compensating the 2 delayed SCVs. The first mule does a good job of this and subsequent mules probably go beyond merely compensating for this. There's obviously going to be more than 1 mule in the game. How do you explain that 1base Terran can take on 2base FFE from Protoss? I'm curious. I made the point that the strenght of MULE is the supersaturation. Without the supersaturation, constant MULE would equal 4.5 workers that can only harvest minerals. Do the math. 270 min per MULE during it's 90 sec lifetime means 180 minerals/min. Each harvester pulls in 40 minerals per minute excluding saturation problems. This means that constant MULE is as good as 4.5 workers. You could have build 2 workers in the time it takes to convert the CC, so you are left with 2.5 workers 'bonus' EXCLUDING supersaturation.As super saturation is not an point in the scenario you brought up (T pulling tons of SCV for an 'all-in'), this means that MULE gives T 2.5 extra workers to pull. Something chronoboost or larva inject easily negate up to the time such an all-in usually hit. Obviously, for the early attacks there is only 1 MULE present from good terrans (because steady income is better than spiky) because I haven't seen an all-in that builds extra OC. I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT. Do you expect, that a fast expand will win against any other build? @bolded part: That's a 1 time delay. After that, mules more than make up for it. Regarding this: Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT
This is so wrong in so many ways. - Nexus first is the most common way to deal with 1-1-1. Not FFE, my mistake. I meant FE. It doesn't change the point I made though (2base vs. 1base). However - have you been keeping up to date with the metagame? If you claim that no Protoss "ever" does this, then you're simply not keeping up. - Yes, if T hits with an early attack (fakes 1-1-1, but does 2rax instead) then Protoss is screwed. But if 1-1-1 hits Protoss is also screwed. Why do you think 1-1-1 is so controversial right now? - What kind of "early build" is blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar? Has Protoss ever had all of this while Terran was in the midst of getting his 1st expansion? - The truth of the matter is that Terran CAN expand early and hold it easier than the other races. Obviously, early bunkers can't deal with the fairytale build you mentioned above. But they do exceedingly well against any realistic pushes Protoss can make in the early game. For instance - watch Naniwa vs. Thorzain in Dreamhack Valencia. Naniwa did a blink all-in, while Thorzain expanded. Bunkers held it effortlessly. Naniwa made a balance comment before gg'ing. (Surprisingly, blink rush got nerfed soon thereafter).
@MULE discussion:
Compare the mining of 2 Terrans ingame. One has 16 workers on minerals, the other has 11 workers on minerals and an orbital using MULE whenever energy is available. You will see that the Terran mining with 16 SCVs has a higher income than the one with 11 SCVs + MULE. Assuming constant worker production, you never catch up the 2 workers not built while you convert your CC. While a MULE is present, it mines the equivalent of 4.5 workers. One OC can support one MULE constantly. Thus - excluding supersaturation - an orbital offers the advantage of 2.5 workers (4.5 from MULE minus the two you are behind as you cannot build SCVs during the conversion).
@Toss early strategy:
I never said anything about "blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar". I said blink+obs OR DT+warpprism. Which is both attainable before a fast expanding terran gets the troops and the upgrades to survive without bunkers. Hell, just go 4gate with a warpprism. Park the prism at the edge of the cliff and you can elevate your troops while you warp-in more. The robo also keeps you safe from losing to cloak banshee.
Yes, 1-1-1 is strong. Protoss early game all-ins are strong as well, especially with the buffed EASILY AVAILABLE warpprism. Also Nexus first is hardly the best counter to 1-1-1. Check Kiwikaki, who wins vs 1-1-1 on a regular basis by going 1 gate/robo expand. If he scouts 1-1-1 he cancles nexus and adds gateway and stargate and beats the push.
Also the race expanding the easiest is Zerg. ZvT, 15 hatch is full standard and can even survive against 11/11 proxy rax - a strat that is an instant loss vs any pool first build.
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On October 17 2011 21:00 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 20:45 Kvz wrote:On October 17 2011 20:42 Twinmold wrote:
Mules aren't what make Terran allins strong. Their only benefits over 4 regular workers are that they allow supersaturation and that they aren't affected as much by death. Neither of which come into play during an allin.
last i checked mules are worth ~7 workers and they allow a terran to go 6 rax off 1 base and pull all scvs but 4scvs + 1 mule to support 6 rax. that sounds fair. yes? Yea, like I said earlier - I'm sure the math given by the previous posters is off somehow, although I can't seem to place it. But it allows T to rival the production capacity of a Protoss who goes Nexus first. The "loss of 2 workers" argument is weak imho. There's nothing permanent about it. Do all Terrans stop making workers as soon as the OC is done? It's not a loss - it's a delay.
since we are talking about 1 base allins I would call it a loss. the delay is only made up if you have A) a faster CC to make the two workers, or B) its late game and the other player is finished making workers. None of these will happen of one base.
edit: typo
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On October 17 2011 20:45 Kvz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 20:42 Twinmold wrote:
Mules aren't what make Terran allins strong. Their only benefits over 4 regular workers are that they allow supersaturation and that they aren't affected as much by death. Neither of which come into play during an allin.
last i checked mules are worth ~7 workers and they allow a terran to go 6 rax off 1 base and pull all scvs but 4scvs + 1 mule to support 6 rax. that sounds fair. yes?
You might want to check your facts again: Liquipedia - MULE (not changed since Beta btw).
If the MULE can make 9 trips (on many maps/mineral patches it will make only 8) it will pretty much equal 4 SCVs. As you can call down a MULE as soon as it expires per OC, you could pretty much equal the # of Orbital Commands (=x) to SCV equivalents (=4x). This is of course is only valid if no energy is used on scans. Considering the cost of the OC = 3SCVs and no option to chrono or larva inject, MULEs seem to be only very little op, if at all. Maybe slightly decrease the amount of minerals returned per trip. The impact of MULEs tends to be overexagurated by many casters imo 
To your example: 1 Mule and 4 SCVs equal 180mpm + 4x43mpm = 352 minerals per minute
A Marine costs 50min and builds in 25s, which is 120 minerals per minute to keep up constant production per marine. Thus, in your example with 4 SCVs and 1 MULE you can only support 2.93 Raxes, not 6.
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On October 17 2011 18:08 bokeevboke wrote:
A protoss winning MLG and another protoss being runner-up kinda surprised me, although I wasn't able to watch the tournament. Could someone who watched whole thing give some insights if protoss' has changed, I mean strats, metagame, builds? Did anyone have success with immortals and warp prisms?
Huk just played really well from the start. His group was mostly PvP's for him and he seems to have that match up nailed. He actually managed to hold a 4-gate with a 1 gate 1 robo into 3gate robo when MC had already got a pylon up onto his high ground. Most of the strong terrans were knocked out by Idra who played really well against terran but when against toss it was like he'd stepped back 6 months
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On October 17 2011 21:02 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 17:38 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 15:30 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 15:22 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 14:50 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 08:58 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 06:51 SeaSwift wrote:On October 17 2011 06:35 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 06:24 Toadvine wrote:
[quote]
I see your HongUnPrime, and raise you a PuMa.
Honestly though, like 1/3rd of the Terrans in Code S are only capable of 1 base all-ining in TvP. And HongUn doesn't even do all-ins with mass Sentries, he's more of a "2-3Gate VR, and maybe win, if not do as much damage as possible, and transition" guy.
He's also in the Up/Down matches, not in Code S. You said all-in. MC does sentry all-ins quite a bit, and is quite successful with them. If he didn't go making things hard for himself by willingly putting himself into the hardest group in Code S, we'd likely see him in GSL still. MC does sentry TIMING PUSHES quite a bit. All-in is like a 4gate or an Xgate with no economy. MC consistently makes scary pushes, but doesn't very often actually all-in. There is normally at least some economy behind it. Yea, this is fair, timing pushes that are as effective as all-is. That's the problem with Protoss which nobody wants to talk about or deal with because in ONE single tournament they can't get their damn act together. I can't believe you're attributing this to Protoss. Protoss actually takes a hit when a P push is thwarted. That's actually a major problem with Terran... Terran all-ins with SCVs brought off the line aren't even all in because of mules. If you've been paying attention, like, at all, the problem with Terran pseudo-all-ins is that you can thwart them against all odds, but the Terran just does a second and even a third push and then wins the game. edit: regarding mules... I'd like to point your attention to this post at the top of page 140: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=140How can anyone argue that this is fair/balanced? Do the numbers yourself. Constant MULE usage has the mineral income of 4.5 SCVs. The conversion of a CC to an OC takes a little more time than training 2 SCVs. Thus if you constantly use MULES you can pull TWO extra SCVs for an attack compared to other races. So if you see a T pulling 12 SCVs from the line, he is as all-in as a P or Z pulling 10 workers for an attack. The only power of the MULE is the supersaturation (which does not come into play in the scenario you are complaining about), because else having 2 extra mineral only workers is a little weak in comparison to chronoboost and larva inject, isn't it? Mule is weak compared to chrono and larva inject? Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. I'm certain there are parts of the equation that your list is missing. For example, it's not "constant" use of Mules that is required for compensating the 2 delayed SCVs. The first mule does a good job of this and subsequent mules probably go beyond merely compensating for this. There's obviously going to be more than 1 mule in the game. How do you explain that 1base Terran can take on 2base FFE from Protoss? I'm curious. I made the point that the strenght of MULE is the supersaturation. Without the supersaturation, constant MULE would equal 4.5 workers that can only harvest minerals. Do the math. 270 min per MULE during it's 90 sec lifetime means 180 minerals/min. Each harvester pulls in 40 minerals per minute excluding saturation problems. This means that constant MULE is as good as 4.5 workers. You could have build 2 workers in the time it takes to convert the CC, so you are left with 2.5 workers 'bonus' EXCLUDING supersaturation.As super saturation is not an point in the scenario you brought up (T pulling tons of SCV for an 'all-in'), this means that MULE gives T 2.5 extra workers to pull. Something chronoboost or larva inject easily negate up to the time such an all-in usually hit. Obviously, for the early attacks there is only 1 MULE present from good terrans (because steady income is better than spiky) because I haven't seen an all-in that builds extra OC. I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT. Do you expect, that a fast expand will win against any other build? @bolded part: That's a 1 time delay. After that, mules more than make up for it. Regarding this: On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT
This is so wrong in so many ways. - Nexus first is the most common way to deal with 1-1-1. Not FFE, my mistake. I meant FE. It doesn't change the point I made though (2base vs. 1base). However - have you been keeping up to date with the metagame? If you claim that no Protoss "ever" does this, then you're simply not keeping up. - Yes, if T hits with an early attack (fakes 1-1-1, but does 2rax instead) then Protoss is screwed. But if 1-1-1 hits Protoss is also screwed. Why do you think 1-1-1 is so controversial right now? - What kind of "early build" is blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar? Has Protoss ever had all of this while Terran was in the midst of getting his 1st expansion? - The truth of the matter is that Terran CAN expand early and hold it easier than the other races. Obviously, early bunkers can't deal with the fairytale build you mentioned above. But they do exceedingly well against any realistic pushes Protoss can make in the early game. For instance - watch Naniwa vs. Thorzain in Dreamhack Valencia. Naniwa did a blink all-in, while Thorzain expanded. Bunkers held it effortlessly. Naniwa made a balance comment before gg'ing. (Surprisingly, blink rush got nerfed soon thereafter). @MULE discussion: Compare the mining of 2 Terrans ingame. One has 16 workers on minerals, the other has 11 workers on minerals and an orbital using MULE whenever energy is available. You will see that the Terran mining with 16 SCVs has a higher income than the one with 11 SCVs + MULE. Assuming constant worker production, you never catch up the 2 workers not built while you convert your CC. While a MULE is present, it mines the equivalent of 4.5 workers. One OC can support one MULE constantly. Thus - excluding supersaturation - an orbital offers the advantage of 2.5 workers (4.5 from MULE minus the two you are behind as you cannot build SCVs during the conversion). @Toss early strategy: I never said anything about "blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar". I said blink+obs OR DT+warpprism. Which is both attainable before a fast expanding terran gets the troops and the upgrades to survive without bunkers. Hell, just go 4gate with a warpprism. Park the prism at the edge of the cliff and you can elevate your troops while you warp-in more. The robo also keeps you safe from losing to cloak banshee. Yes, 1-1-1 is strong. Protoss early game all-ins are strong as well, especially with the buffed EASILY AVAILABLE warpprism. Also Nexus first is hardly the best counter to 1-1-1. Check Kiwikaki, who wins vs 1-1-1 on a regular basis by going 1 gate/robo expand. If he scouts 1-1-1 he cancles nexus and adds gateway and stargate and beats the push. Also the race expanding the easiest is Zerg. ZvT, 15 hatch is full standard and can even survive against 11/11 proxy rax - a strat that is an instant loss vs any pool first build.
@MULE
Here are my thoughts:
* Your math does seem solid, upon reading it further, but I still feel like something's missing.
* Does a supersaturation limit not occur among scvs who are mining the same patch? I mean, that's why you split your workers in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't MULES completely bypass that? I'm unsure about this.
* 4.5 workers for 150minerals is an advantage. Although it doesn't appear as large as I originally thought.
* If not MULES, then what else would explain 1base Terran economy keeping up with early 2base from Protoss? Personally, I'm sure something about MULES is not being accounted for, somewhere... Hmm.
@Other stuff
I must've misread your suggested Toss build then. My fault. But I still insist that Terran has a much easier time holding off all-ins than Protoss does.
How do you explain Terran all-ins being so resilient that there is a second or third wave after the first push is thwarted? I'm not trying to make a point here - I'm genuinely asking. I'm curious about how you can justify it. How does their 1 base economy support such a thing?
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I think a big part of what everyone is missing from the whole MULE debate is how orbitals themselves function. A HUGE part of the problem IMO is that orbitals fly. Allowing terrans to safely expand inside their own main and get a substantial advantage over a protoss that doesn't take their expansion.
If protoss's expansion gets broken, protoss is dead. Terrans however can expand sooner because they can do it in base, and stay on a lower tech tree. Protoss has to tech all the way to templar or colossus to deal with terran MMM. If terran can't hold his natural once it's taken, he can retreat and keep the orbital (he's not dead).
Terran has bunkers to aid in expanding so why shouldn't they have take more risk on expanding? On maps like xel naga and metalopolis, this is huge because of how wide open the natural is. Protoss can't expect to rely on FF's to expand early vs shenanigans. But as protoss if you stay on 1 base too long vs a terran with double mules and scv production in his main, your window will close fast to do damage.
Also, terran gets to scout protoss for much longer in the early game, because usually the 1st marine ends probe scouting for protoss, but a zealot doesn't stop an scv from scouting. Terran also has a ton of early options, reapers (for more scouting), marine/mass barracks, in base expand, 1/1/1, 3 rax, 2 rax expand, ghost rushes. Any of these can be a build order loss for protoss, but often not for terran, even when they fail. They do these rushes and if the attack goes terrible, the terran bunkers up, takes the natural (with the orbital they built in their main during the attack) and they are still in the game.
In many ways, terran has too many opportunities in TvP to win the game outright in the early stages, and don't fall far enough behind when they fail. Orbitals are the main reason.
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On October 17 2011 21:20 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 21:02 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 17:38 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 15:30 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 15:22 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 14:50 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 08:58 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 06:51 SeaSwift wrote:On October 17 2011 06:35 aksfjh wrote:
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You said all-in. MC does sentry all-ins quite a bit, and is quite successful with them. If he didn't go making things hard for himself by willingly putting himself into the hardest group in Code S, we'd likely see him in GSL still. MC does sentry TIMING PUSHES quite a bit. All-in is like a 4gate or an Xgate with no economy. MC consistently makes scary pushes, but doesn't very often actually all-in. There is normally at least some economy behind it. Yea, this is fair, timing pushes that are as effective as all-is. That's the problem with Protoss which nobody wants to talk about or deal with because in ONE single tournament they can't get their damn act together. I can't believe you're attributing this to Protoss. Protoss actually takes a hit when a P push is thwarted. That's actually a major problem with Terran... Terran all-ins with SCVs brought off the line aren't even all in because of mules. If you've been paying attention, like, at all, the problem with Terran pseudo-all-ins is that you can thwart them against all odds, but the Terran just does a second and even a third push and then wins the game. edit: regarding mules... I'd like to point your attention to this post at the top of page 140: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=140How can anyone argue that this is fair/balanced? Do the numbers yourself. Constant MULE usage has the mineral income of 4.5 SCVs. The conversion of a CC to an OC takes a little more time than training 2 SCVs. Thus if you constantly use MULES you can pull TWO extra SCVs for an attack compared to other races. So if you see a T pulling 12 SCVs from the line, he is as all-in as a P or Z pulling 10 workers for an attack. The only power of the MULE is the supersaturation (which does not come into play in the scenario you are complaining about), because else having 2 extra mineral only workers is a little weak in comparison to chronoboost and larva inject, isn't it? Mule is weak compared to chrono and larva inject? Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. I'm certain there are parts of the equation that your list is missing. For example, it's not "constant" use of Mules that is required for compensating the 2 delayed SCVs. The first mule does a good job of this and subsequent mules probably go beyond merely compensating for this. There's obviously going to be more than 1 mule in the game. How do you explain that 1base Terran can take on 2base FFE from Protoss? I'm curious. I made the point that the strenght of MULE is the supersaturation. Without the supersaturation, constant MULE would equal 4.5 workers that can only harvest minerals. Do the math. 270 min per MULE during it's 90 sec lifetime means 180 minerals/min. Each harvester pulls in 40 minerals per minute excluding saturation problems. This means that constant MULE is as good as 4.5 workers. You could have build 2 workers in the time it takes to convert the CC, so you are left with 2.5 workers 'bonus' EXCLUDING supersaturation.As super saturation is not an point in the scenario you brought up (T pulling tons of SCV for an 'all-in'), this means that MULE gives T 2.5 extra workers to pull. Something chronoboost or larva inject easily negate up to the time such an all-in usually hit. Obviously, for the early attacks there is only 1 MULE present from good terrans (because steady income is better than spiky) because I haven't seen an all-in that builds extra OC. I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT. Do you expect, that a fast expand will win against any other build? @bolded part: That's a 1 time delay. After that, mules more than make up for it. Regarding this: On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT
This is so wrong in so many ways. - Nexus first is the most common way to deal with 1-1-1. Not FFE, my mistake. I meant FE. It doesn't change the point I made though (2base vs. 1base). However - have you been keeping up to date with the metagame? If you claim that no Protoss "ever" does this, then you're simply not keeping up. - Yes, if T hits with an early attack (fakes 1-1-1, but does 2rax instead) then Protoss is screwed. But if 1-1-1 hits Protoss is also screwed. Why do you think 1-1-1 is so controversial right now? - What kind of "early build" is blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar? Has Protoss ever had all of this while Terran was in the midst of getting his 1st expansion? - The truth of the matter is that Terran CAN expand early and hold it easier than the other races. Obviously, early bunkers can't deal with the fairytale build you mentioned above. But they do exceedingly well against any realistic pushes Protoss can make in the early game. For instance - watch Naniwa vs. Thorzain in Dreamhack Valencia. Naniwa did a blink all-in, while Thorzain expanded. Bunkers held it effortlessly. Naniwa made a balance comment before gg'ing. (Surprisingly, blink rush got nerfed soon thereafter). @MULE discussion: Compare the mining of 2 Terrans ingame. One has 16 workers on minerals, the other has 11 workers on minerals and an orbital using MULE whenever energy is available. You will see that the Terran mining with 16 SCVs has a higher income than the one with 11 SCVs + MULE. Assuming constant worker production, you never catch up the 2 workers not built while you convert your CC. While a MULE is present, it mines the equivalent of 4.5 workers. One OC can support one MULE constantly. Thus - excluding supersaturation - an orbital offers the advantage of 2.5 workers (4.5 from MULE minus the two you are behind as you cannot build SCVs during the conversion). @Toss early strategy: I never said anything about "blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar". I said blink+obs OR DT+warpprism. Which is both attainable before a fast expanding terran gets the troops and the upgrades to survive without bunkers. Hell, just go 4gate with a warpprism. Park the prism at the edge of the cliff and you can elevate your troops while you warp-in more. The robo also keeps you safe from losing to cloak banshee. Yes, 1-1-1 is strong. Protoss early game all-ins are strong as well, especially with the buffed EASILY AVAILABLE warpprism. Also Nexus first is hardly the best counter to 1-1-1. Check Kiwikaki, who wins vs 1-1-1 on a regular basis by going 1 gate/robo expand. If he scouts 1-1-1 he cancles nexus and adds gateway and stargate and beats the push. Also the race expanding the easiest is Zerg. ZvT, 15 hatch is full standard and can even survive against 11/11 proxy rax - a strat that is an instant loss vs any pool first build. @MULE Here are my thoughts: * Your math does seem solid, upon reading it further, but I still feel like something's missing. * Does a supersaturation limit not occur among scvs who are mining the same patch? I mean, that's why you split your workers in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't MULES completely bypass that? I'm unsure about this. * 4.5 workers for 150minerals is an advantage. Although it doesn't appear as large as I originally thought. * If not MULES, then what else would explain 1base Terran economy keeping up with early 2base from Protoss? Personally, I'm sure something about MULES is not being accounted for, somewhere... Hmm. @Other stuff I must've misread your suggested Toss build then. My fault. But I still insist that Terran has a much easier time holding off all-ins than Protoss does. How do you explain Terran all-ins being so resilient that there is a second or third wave after the first push is thwarted? I'm not trying to make a point here - I'm genuinely asking. I'm curious about how you can justify it. How does their 1 base economy support such a thing?
Yes, MULEs bypass the satuarion limit. That is their power. This is why I'm not discussing MULE in general, but only objected, when you brought up the 'Pull all SCV' scenario, where the saturation advantage is negate by only 5-10 workers left mining minerals. That is also the reason, why Terrans can get more stuff out of one base, but you have to realize, that this increase is around 20% more minerals and no extra gas.
If you ask about the 1-1-1 and why there are wave 2 and 3, the answer is simple:
Usually there are only 2-4 workers pulled with such a push. Just enough to repair and make bunkers. Thus terran can continously keep the production up that he had leading up to the push. Marine-tank-banshee makes harsh requirement on the protoss force, as you need something to deal with larger numbers, stuff to deal with tanks and with banshees. Usually the initial wave deals enough damage to negate the economic advantage of the toss and while both have the same amount of army when the first fight is over, terran has the tech advantage and wins in subsequent pushes. Sometimes also a specific segment of the protoss force (e.g. anti-banshee) is destroyed and the protoss does not replenish this part especially and then falls to the lack of anti-X forces.
If the first wave of a 1-1-1 does not deal economic damage or at least trades very favorable, then the protoss will usually win, as he has had the time to catch up in tech.
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On October 17 2011 21:32 Reborn8u wrote:
I think a big part of what everyone is missing from the whole MULE debate is how orbitals themselves function. A HUGE part of the problem IMO is that orbitals fly. Allowing terrans to safely expand inside their own main and get a substantial advantage over a protoss that doesn't take their expansion.
If protoss's expansion gets broken, protoss is dead. Terrans however can expand sooner because they can do it in base, and stay on a lower tech tree. Protoss has to tech all the way to templar or colossus to deal with terran MMM. If terran can't hold his natural once it's taken, he can retreat and keep the orbital (he's not dead).
Terran has bunkers to aid in expanding so why shouldn't they have take more risk on expanding? On maps like xel naga and metalopolis, this is huge because of how wide open the natural is. Protoss can't expect to rely on FF's to expand early vs shenanigans. But as protoss if you stay on 1 base too long vs a terran with double mules and scv production in his main, your window will close fast to do damage.
Also, terran gets to scout protoss for much longer in the early game, because usually the 1st marine ends probe scouting for protoss, but a zealot doesn't stop an scv from scouting. Terran also has a ton of early options, reapers (for more scouting), marine/mass barracks, in base expand, 1/1/1, 3 rax, 2 rax expand, ghost rushes. Any of these can be a build order loss for protoss, but often not for terran, even when they fail. They do these rushes and if the attack goes terrible, the terran bunkers up, takes the natural (with the orbital they built in their main during the attack) and they are still in the game.
In many ways, terran has too many opportunities in TvP to win the game outright in the early stages, and don't fall far enough behind when they fail. Orbitals are the main reason.
I agree a lot with this! but i think that you don't have to remove the ability but it will cost money to put a CC converted to a orbital Down after you lifted it. Like 150m and 50 gas. Or you can just as you said remove the ability. But i don't think removing abilities is the way too go. They should also put inn something like it takes 5 seconds to lifte a CC after you have put it down, this will make it more risky to expend for Terran because right now they can almost expand like a zerg with less risks.
Right now the biggest problem for Toss is the scouting. you most get robo, or you need to get hallucination. Zerg has this problem also, but not to that degree. since the overseer is so cheap now. they also have Zerglings. Toss don't have anything early game. they have too use gas too get a scout. and for a toss that is critical.
Terran also have one thing they can play a lot greedier than other races because of the bunker. since the bunker is "free" there is no problem putting down a early cc just make marines and bunker, and if controlled correctly you can hold most all ins.
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On October 17 2011 21:02 Thrombozyt wrote:
Yes, 1-1-1 is strong. Protoss early game all-ins are strong as well, especially with the buffed EASILY AVAILABLE warpprism. Also Nexus first is hardly the best counter to 1-1-1. Check Kiwikaki, who wins vs 1-1-1 on a regular basis by going 1 gate/robo expand. If he scouts 1-1-1 he cancles nexus and adds gateway and stargate and beats the push.
Kiwikaki did that vs PuMa at MLG Raleigh, and got rolled.
Aside from that, if you really think Protoss all-ins are in any way comparable to 1/1/1, then you're living in a completely different reality than the rest of us.
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I don't understand why people are still arguing the mule when it's simple mathematics to prove the effectiveness of the things in every conceivable situation, especially when those arguments are as general as they get i.e "How come a Terran with 20 SCVs and 5 mules can keep up with 2 base protosses!?"
If there's one aspect that if it's argued should be backed up by math, it should be the mule part.
I was going to respond to some mule posts here, but Thrombozyt pretty much nailed it. Can people please read his posts and rethink their arguments before spouting them? It does get tiring explaining the same thing over and over.
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On October 17 2011 21:20 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 21:02 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 17:38 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 15:30 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 15:22 Thrombozyt wrote:On October 17 2011 14:50 Brotocol wrote:On October 17 2011 08:58 aksfjh wrote:On October 17 2011 06:51 SeaSwift wrote:On October 17 2011 06:35 aksfjh wrote:
[quote]
You said all-in. MC does sentry all-ins quite a bit, and is quite successful with them. If he didn't go making things hard for himself by willingly putting himself into the hardest group in Code S, we'd likely see him in GSL still. MC does sentry TIMING PUSHES quite a bit. All-in is like a 4gate or an Xgate with no economy. MC consistently makes scary pushes, but doesn't very often actually all-in. There is normally at least some economy behind it. Yea, this is fair, timing pushes that are as effective as all-is. That's the problem with Protoss which nobody wants to talk about or deal with because in ONE single tournament they can't get their damn act together. I can't believe you're attributing this to Protoss. Protoss actually takes a hit when a P push is thwarted. That's actually a major problem with Terran... Terran all-ins with SCVs brought off the line aren't even all in because of mules. If you've been paying attention, like, at all, the problem with Terran pseudo-all-ins is that you can thwart them against all odds, but the Terran just does a second and even a third push and then wins the game. edit: regarding mules... I'd like to point your attention to this post at the top of page 140: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=140How can anyone argue that this is fair/balanced? Do the numbers yourself. Constant MULE usage has the mineral income of 4.5 SCVs. The conversion of a CC to an OC takes a little more time than training 2 SCVs. Thus if you constantly use MULES you can pull TWO extra SCVs for an attack compared to other races. So if you see a T pulling 12 SCVs from the line, he is as all-in as a P or Z pulling 10 workers for an attack. The only power of the MULE is the supersaturation (which does not come into play in the scenario you are complaining about), because else having 2 extra mineral only workers is a little weak in comparison to chronoboost and larva inject, isn't it? Mule is weak compared to chrono and larva inject? Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. I'm certain there are parts of the equation that your list is missing. For example, it's not "constant" use of Mules that is required for compensating the 2 delayed SCVs. The first mule does a good job of this and subsequent mules probably go beyond merely compensating for this. There's obviously going to be more than 1 mule in the game. How do you explain that 1base Terran can take on 2base FFE from Protoss? I'm curious. I made the point that the strenght of MULE is the supersaturation. Without the supersaturation, constant MULE would equal 4.5 workers that can only harvest minerals. Do the math. 270 min per MULE during it's 90 sec lifetime means 180 minerals/min. Each harvester pulls in 40 minerals per minute excluding saturation problems. This means that constant MULE is as good as 4.5 workers. You could have build 2 workers in the time it takes to convert the CC, so you are left with 2.5 workers 'bonus' EXCLUDING supersaturation.As super saturation is not an point in the scenario you brought up (T pulling tons of SCV for an 'all-in'), this means that MULE gives T 2.5 extra workers to pull. Something chronoboost or larva inject easily negate up to the time such an all-in usually hit. Obviously, for the early attacks there is only 1 MULE present from good terrans (because steady income is better than spiky) because I haven't seen an all-in that builds extra OC. I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT. Do you expect, that a fast expand will win against any other build? @bolded part: That's a 1 time delay. After that, mules more than make up for it. Regarding this: On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT
This is so wrong in so many ways. - Nexus first is the most common way to deal with 1-1-1. Not FFE, my mistake. I meant FE. It doesn't change the point I made though (2base vs. 1base). However - have you been keeping up to date with the metagame? If you claim that no Protoss "ever" does this, then you're simply not keeping up. - Yes, if T hits with an early attack (fakes 1-1-1, but does 2rax instead) then Protoss is screwed. But if 1-1-1 hits Protoss is also screwed. Why do you think 1-1-1 is so controversial right now? - What kind of "early build" is blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar? Has Protoss ever had all of this while Terran was in the midst of getting his 1st expansion? - The truth of the matter is that Terran CAN expand early and hold it easier than the other races. Obviously, early bunkers can't deal with the fairytale build you mentioned above. But they do exceedingly well against any realistic pushes Protoss can make in the early game. For instance - watch Naniwa vs. Thorzain in Dreamhack Valencia. Naniwa did a blink all-in, while Thorzain expanded. Bunkers held it effortlessly. Naniwa made a balance comment before gg'ing. (Surprisingly, blink rush got nerfed soon thereafter). @MULE discussion: Compare the mining of 2 Terrans ingame. One has 16 workers on minerals, the other has 11 workers on minerals and an orbital using MULE whenever energy is available. You will see that the Terran mining with 16 SCVs has a higher income than the one with 11 SCVs + MULE. Assuming constant worker production, you never catch up the 2 workers not built while you convert your CC. While a MULE is present, it mines the equivalent of 4.5 workers. One OC can support one MULE constantly. Thus - excluding supersaturation - an orbital offers the advantage of 2.5 workers (4.5 from MULE minus the two you are behind as you cannot build SCVs during the conversion). @Toss early strategy: I never said anything about "blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar". I said blink+obs OR DT+warpprism. Which is both attainable before a fast expanding terran gets the troops and the upgrades to survive without bunkers. Hell, just go 4gate with a warpprism. Park the prism at the edge of the cliff and you can elevate your troops while you warp-in more. The robo also keeps you safe from losing to cloak banshee. Yes, 1-1-1 is strong. Protoss early game all-ins are strong as well, especially with the buffed EASILY AVAILABLE warpprism. Also Nexus first is hardly the best counter to 1-1-1. Check Kiwikaki, who wins vs 1-1-1 on a regular basis by going 1 gate/robo expand. If he scouts 1-1-1 he cancles nexus and adds gateway and stargate and beats the push. Also the race expanding the easiest is Zerg. ZvT, 15 hatch is full standard and can even survive against 11/11 proxy rax - a strat that is an instant loss vs any pool first build. @MULE Here are my thoughts: * Your math does seem solid, upon reading it further, but I still feel like something's missing. * Does a supersaturation limit not occur among scvs who are mining the same patch? I mean, that's why you split your workers in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't MULES completely bypass that? I'm unsure about this. * 4.5 workers for 150minerals is an advantage. Although it doesn't appear as large as I originally thought. * If not MULES, then what else would explain 1base Terran economy keeping up with early 2base from Protoss? Personally, I'm sure something about MULES is not being accounted for, somewhere... Hmm. @Other stuff I must've misread your suggested Toss build then. My fault. But I still insist that Terran has a much easier time holding off all-ins than Protoss does. How do you explain Terran all-ins being so resilient that there is a second or third wave after the first push is thwarted? I'm not trying to make a point here - I'm genuinely asking. I'm curious about how you can justify it. How does their 1 base economy support such a thing?
Due to the nature of other macro mechanics, MULEs don't even allow the Terran to break even until after saturation occurs for both players. Protoss can be as many as 5 workers ahead by the 4 minute mark, but it requires not saving chrono for the stalker or warpgate.
I think that may be part of the problem in stopping the 1-1-1. So much emphasis is put on getting everything out asap that you don't develop the economy for it fast enough. Even with nexus first, if you spend all your chrono on army/tech, you can still end up too far behind economically.
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On October 17 2011 18:08 bokeevboke wrote:
A protoss winning MLG and another protoss being runner-up kinda surprised me, although I wasn't able to watch the tournament. Could someone who watched whole thing give some insights if protoss' has changed, I mean strats, metagame, builds? Did anyone have success with immortals and warp prisms?
A lot of PvPs. Huk had like 4 or 5. Nobody practiced the XvP matchup, lots of mistakes. MC did some Warp Prism stuff with HTs and it had mild success.
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On October 17 2011 22:52 Dalavita wrote:
I don't understand why people are still arguing the mule when it's simple mathematics to prove the effectiveness of the things in every conceivable situation, especially when those arguments are as general as they get i.e "How come a Terran with 20 SCVs and 5 mules can keep up with 2 base protosses!?"
reason is simple,
if you cut workers totally you have around 180minerals more income to spend on army add to that the additional 180 by over saturation, skip the second gas because terran doesn't need as much, again additional ressources for army.
protoss is forced to expand, playing 1 base vs. 1 base against a race that mines more minerals, and can float his into his natural.
That the whole reason, 1-1-1 works is because of this it can come early or late (a push that can peak in strengh early and late equally, while Protoss has to cut corners to both maintain an army that somehow defends well, and still invest enough into economy to not fall behind if he is instead opting for some kind of economy game instead.
btw anyone saw Boxer vs. Sase on shattered, that push around boxers gold, god was that awful to watch.
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Terran > Zerg
Terran >>> Protoss
Zerg >> Protoss
1) EMP range 10 - > 9 (for PvT)
2) Khaydarin Amulet back with 300/300 cost (for PvT)
3) Reactor production speed 100% - > 90% of the original, build time from 50 - > 40 sec (for TvZ)
..... and we are done.
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One of the issues I have while watching games (and it was mentioned earlier in this thread) is that it feels like Terran is just more forgiving that toss or zerg. Watching MC v STC in game 2
+ Show Spoiler +MC has observers sitting around his base that barely misses the two medivacs incoming. If that observer sees the medivac, MC can position his army and STC has to go back, maybe losing a medivac of marines (500m, 100g). Instead he misses it, and loses his templar archives, nexus, and plenty of probes.
It just feels that if a drop succeeds, it does tremendous damage, sometimes game ending damage, if it gets spotted it loses at most 500m, 100g. Most of the time if it is spotted after the drop has unloaded, the marines still trade fairly cost effectively with whatever units are brought over (usually lings or zealots/stalkers warping in).
With PFs and lifting CCs, taking rich expansions is not as much of a risk as being caught taking it with the other races. P/Z have the long build time where it could have been spotted, losing them a potential expansion, T is allowed to prebuild the command center, making it so much harder to scout before it is landed and upgraded to a PF and 8 MULEs mining. This gives the terran the ability to quickly catch up if they find themselves down a base.
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On October 18 2011 06:08 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 22:52 Dalavita wrote:
I don't understand why people are still arguing the mule when it's simple mathematics to prove the effectiveness of the things in every conceivable situation, especially when those arguments are as general as they get i.e "How come a Terran with 20 SCVs and 5 mules can keep up with 2 base protosses!?"
reason is simple, if you cut workers totally you have around 180minerals more income to spend on army add to that the additional 180 by over saturation, skip the second gas because terran doesn't need as much, again additional ressources for army. protoss is forced to expand, playing 1 base vs. 1 base against a race that mines more minerals, and can float his into his natural. That the whole reason, 1-1-1 works is because of this it can come early or late (a push that can peak in strengh early and late equally, while Protoss has to cut corners to both maintain an army that somehow defends well, and still invest enough into economy to not fall behind if he is instead opting for some kind of economy game instead. btw anyone saw Boxer vs. Sase on shattered, that push around boxers gold, god was that awful to watch.
Where does this 180 minerals come from? Cut workers totally? What does that mean? How do you get 180 minerals more by cutting workers? Also, how does that have anything to do with my post that you quoted, or the 1-1-1?
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EPT
