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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On October 17 2011 07:50 VPVash wrote: I love balance discussions...the level of idiotic talk in these thread is quite enjoyable User was banned for this post. I must agree, some of the statements in here are pretty stupid... I think people should really not write anything about balance until they are top grandmaster, because before that, balance doesn't really hold you back. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 17 2011 14:54 kofman wrote: I must agree, some of the statements in here are pretty stupid... I think people should really not write anything about balance until they are top grandmaster, because before that, balance doesn't really hold you back. Are you top grandmaster? | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 17 2011 09:13 Dalavita wrote: First of all, a 4gate hits at a time where you can't count a lack of nexus as an an all-in, and early MM needs its upgrades to deal with a protoss bio force, and while terran bio works pretty well against protoss gateway units in small numbers, the point of a 4gate is to not have small numbers. I've seen a Terran 1 rax FE, not scout at all, and still defend the 4gate easily. Huk vs Nada in GSL September, on Xel'Naga Fortress. Maybe if repair was weaker or Warpgate was un-nerfed, then Terran wouldn't be able to tech behind a bunker and 4 marines and still be safe against any Protoss all-in. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
No, and that is why I'm not posting idiotic statements about how this or that is OP. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On October 17 2011 14:50 Brotocol wrote: I can't believe you're attributing this to Protoss. Protoss actually takes a hit when a P push is thwarted. That's actually a major problem with Terran... Terran all-ins with SCVs brought off the line aren't even all in because of mules. If you've been paying attention, like, at all, the problem with Terran pseudo-all-ins is that you can thwart them against all odds, but the Terran just does a second and even a third push and then wins the game. edit: regarding mules... I'd like to point your attention to this post at the top of page 140: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=140 How can anyone argue that this is fair/balanced? Do the numbers yourself. Constant MULE usage has the mineral income of 4.5 SCVs. The conversion of a CC to an OC takes a little more time than training 2 SCVs. Thus if you constantly use MULES you can pull TWO extra SCVs for an attack compared to other races. So if you see a T pulling 12 SCVs from the line, he is as all-in as a P or Z pulling 10 workers for an attack. The only power of the MULE is the supersaturation (which does not come into play in the scenario you are complaining about), because else having 2 extra mineral only workers is a little weak in comparison to chronoboost and larva inject, isn't it? | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On October 17 2011 09:30 wonkwink wrote: Protoss usually just FFs the bunkers so it doesn't matter how fast the SCVs that can't repair them could repair them if they could... which they can't. Imagine the power of a push where toss does NOT have to invest into sentries to block mass repair but can focus on units doing dmg with just one sentry for guardian shield.. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:22 Thrombozyt wrote: Do the numbers yourself. Constant MULE usage has the mineral income of 4.5 SCVs. The conversion of a CC to an OC takes a little more time than training 2 SCVs. Thus if you constantly use MULES you can pull TWO extra SCVs for an attack compared to other races. So if you see a T pulling 12 SCVs from the line, he is as all-in as a P or Z pulling 10 workers for an attack. The only power of the MULE is the supersaturation (which does not come into play in the scenario you are complaining about), because else having 2 extra mineral only workers is a little weak in comparison to chronoboost and larva inject, isn't it? Mule is weak compared to chrono and larva inject? Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. I'm certain there are parts of the equation that your list is missing. For example, it's not "constant" use of Mules that is required for compensating the 2 delayed SCVs. The first mule does a good job of this and subsequent mules probably go beyond merely compensating for this. There's obviously going to be more than 1 mule in the game. How do you explain that 1base Terran can take on 2base FFE from Protoss? I'm curious. @kofman: On October 17 2011 15:18 kofman wrote: No, and that is why I'm not posting idiotic statements about how this or that is OP. Yea, you've only posted such nuggets of wisdom as: On October 17 2011 02:48 kofman wrote: This could be evidence that Terran players are just stronger than players of the other races. Very constructive. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:25 Thrombozyt wrote: Imagine the power of a push where toss does NOT have to invest into sentries to block mass repair but can focus on units doing dmg with just one sentry for guardian shield.. I don't even think that makes a huge difference. The only threatening sentry all-in vs Terran currently, is an Immortal bust, which works because of FF to zone the army and good range on everything. It wouldn't work better if it had Zealots instead of Sentries, because trying to bruteforce a fortified position with 3 bunkers by putting units in a spot where the whole Terran army can attack them simply doesn't do a whole lot. Not that I think repair needs to be nerfed, but I doubt it would suddenly make Protoss all-ins too powerful. I'd much rather have CCs unliftable, serves a similar purpose without actuallly removing defenders advantage (which the game needs more, not less of). | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
MLG is a great example, if the T's were significantly stronger as a race, shouldn't we see the 2 code S T's dominate everyone? | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:18 kofman wrote: No, and that is why I'm not posting idiotic statements about how this or that is OP. It's just as idiotic to think that because someone is in GM they will have a completely objective view of balance- as though entering gm magically frees you of any bias. This is a balance discussion thread mostly about what happens at pro level and not about our own games and if people can make a case for one thing or another backed up by games from pros or by statistics then why not discuss it? It's like saying you shouldn't discuss baseball unless you've played for a major league team. If there are any statements that you think are wrong then you can contribute by pointing out why they're wrong. And in the end if this thread bothers you so much then don't read it. Nobody's forcing you to. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:52 architecture wrote: No one wants to see TvT's all day, not even T's. The high number of T's in Code S really has very little to do with balance, but with the format of the tournament. The way round-robin works + the difficulty in getting knocked out. MLG is a great example, if the T's were significantly stronger as a race, shouldn't we see the 2 code S T's dominate everyone? Up until this MLG they pretty much were- remember who the last three winners were? + Show Spoiler + MVP, MMA and Bomber Also, MC and Huk were both fortunate the the two best PvTers (Polt and Bomber) were eliminated before they had to face them. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Let's take a look: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Orlando#Championship_Bracket Tons of good players from all races. Idra/MC in good shape. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Raleigh Bomber beating both DRG and Coca to win finals. 2T/2Z top 4. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Anaheim Holy shit tons of T's. But take a look at the non-T players - only Huk and Idra of note. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Columbus Only 1 T in top 8. If you want to paint it as T winning everything, you can. But that's ignoring that the lower non-codeS T's get completely destroyed in every tournament, and there being fairly fortunate setups for the victor. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:30 Brotocol wrote: Mule is weak compared to chrono and larva inject? Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. I'm certain there are parts of the equation that your list is missing. For example, it's not "constant" use of Mules that is required for compensating the 2 delayed SCVs. The first mule does a good job of this and subsequent mules probably go beyond merely compensating for this. There's obviously going to be more than 1 mule in the game. How do you explain that 1base Terran can take on 2base FFE from Protoss? I'm curious. I made the point that the strenght of MULE is the supersaturation. Without the supersaturation, constant MULE would equal 4.5 workers that can only harvest minerals. Do the math. 270 min per MULE during it's 90 sec lifetime means 180 minerals/min. Each harvester pulls in 40 minerals per minute excluding saturation problems. This means that constant MULE is as good as 4.5 workers. You could have build 2 workers in the time it takes to convert the CC, so you are left with 2.5 workers 'bonus' EXCLUDING supersaturation. As super saturation is not an point in the scenario you brought up (T pulling tons of SCV for an 'all-in'), this means that MULE gives T 2.5 extra workers to pull. Something chronoboost or larva inject easily negate up to the time such an all-in usually hit. Obviously, for the early attacks there is only 1 MULE present from good terrans (because steady income is better than spiky) because I haven't seen an all-in that builds extra OC. I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT. Do you expect, that a fast expand will win against any other build? | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote: I made the point that the strenght of MULE is the supersaturation. Without the supersaturation, constant MULE would equal 4.5 workers that can only harvest minerals. Do the math. 270 min per MULE during it's 90 sec lifetime means 180 minerals/min. Each harvester pulls in 40 minerals per minute excluding saturation problems. This means that constant MULE is as good as 4.5 workers. You could have build 2 workers in the time it takes to convert the CC, so you are left with 2.5 workers 'bonus' EXCLUDING supersaturation. As super saturation is not an point in the scenario you brought up (T pulling tons of SCV for an 'all-in'), this means that MULE gives T 2.5 extra workers to pull. Something chronoboost or larva inject easily negate up to the time such an all-in usually hit. Obviously, for the early attacks there is only 1 MULE present from good terrans (because steady income is better than spiky) because I haven't seen an all-in that builds extra OC. I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT. Do you expect, that a fast expand will win against any other build? @bolded part: That's a 1 time delay. After that, mules more than make up for it. Regarding this: On October 17 2011 16:34 Thrombozyt wrote: I'm curious.. which protoss EVER gos FFE against terran? Also it seems pretty clear, that if toss expands and T hits with an early attack, toss is screwed. Same is true with Terran expanding and toss going for early tech/attack. Bunkers at the front are fail if toss goes for blink+obs or warpprism + DT This is so wrong in so many ways. - Nexus first is the most common way to deal with 1-1-1. Not FFE, my mistake. I meant FE. It doesn't change the point I made though (2base vs. 1base). However - have you been keeping up to date with the metagame? If you claim that no Protoss "ever" does this, then you're simply not keeping up. - Yes, if T hits with an early attack (fakes 1-1-1, but does 2rax instead) then Protoss is screwed. But if 1-1-1 hits Protoss is also screwed. Why do you think 1-1-1 is so controversial right now? - What kind of "early build" is blink + robo/observer + warp prism + dark templar? Has Protoss ever had all of this while Terran was in the midst of getting his 1st expansion? - The truth of the matter is that Terran CAN expand early and hold it easier than the other races. Obviously, early bunkers can't deal with the fairytale build you mentioned above. But they do exceedingly well against any realistic pushes Protoss can make in the early game. For instance - watch Naniwa vs. Thorzain in Dreamhack Valencia. Naniwa did a blink all-in, while Thorzain expanded. Bunkers held it effortlessly. Naniwa made a balance comment before gg'ing. (Surprisingly, blink rush got nerfed soon thereafter). | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On October 17 2011 18:08 bokeevboke wrote: A protoss winning MLG and another protoss being runner-up kinda surprised me, although I wasn't able to watch the tournament. Could someone who watched whole thing give some insights if protoss' has changed, I mean strats, metagame, builds? Did anyone have success with immortals and warp prisms? Well toss played better. Less mistakes, more harass, better defense against harass, better tech switching. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:52 architecture wrote: No one wants to see TvT's all day, not even T's. The high number of T's in Code S really has very little to do with balance, but with the format of the tournament. The way round-robin works + the difficulty in getting knocked out. MLG is a great example, if the T's were significantly stronger as a race, shouldn't we see the 2 code S T's dominate everyone? How exactly does the GSL format specifically help Terran? The only way I could think of is them being better at Bo1, which is somewhat arguable. Still, we shouldn't constantly have 3/4 and 4/4 Terran Top4s in Code S, even with that taken into account. Besides, the early GSL Opens were way more balanced than the current Code S. The first Code S tournament actually had the best racial balance, with 9 P, 9 Z and 14 T. Since then, it has only been getting worse. How does your awesome theory explain this, exactly? | ||
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Zambozo
United Kingdom63 Posts
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Rannasha
Netherlands2398 Posts
On October 17 2011 17:38 Brotocol wrote: @bolded part: That's a 1 time delay. After that, mules more than make up for it. It's not just a one time delay, someone that builds an OC will be 2 workers behind someone that doesn't for all eternity (or at least until they hit ~70 workers and stop producing them). The MULE gives a constant mineral flow of 4.5 workers, so until the point is reached where players stop producing workers, the MULE gives a net benefit of 2.5 workers (less if scans are used of course). | ||
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Twinmold
Sweden238 Posts
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