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On October 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now. It sounds like you just need to practice your PvZ. The matchup is not that broken. 45% win rates at the professional level are one thing when we're in a thread discussing balance, but calling the game unwinable or retarded when you're just someone playing at home is straight up silly. There are a billion things you could do better before the balance of the game becomes relevant to you.
I was sitting at top 40 GM this season with 56% win rate versus Zerg. I'm not blind. It doesn't matter if I win or lose. I still possess an iota of common sense. You'd have to be blind to not see how blatant this is. Blizzard even saw this. That's bad.
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On October 17 2014 05:14 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now. It sounds like you just need to practice your PvZ. The matchup is not that broken. 45% win rates at the professional level are one thing when we're in a thread discussing balance, but calling the game unwinable or retarded when you're just someone playing at home is straight up silly. There are a billion things you could do better before the balance of the game becomes relevant to you. I was sitting at top 40 GM this season with 56% win rate versus Zerg. I'm not blind. It doesn't matter if I win or lose. I still possess an iota of common sense. You'd have to be blind to not see how blatant this is. Blizzard even saw this. That's bad.
Well, for someone who is clearly very good at the game you seem to have a very narrow minded approach towards it. I think Swarm Hosts are poorly designed in that they don't require the Zerg player to take enough risk with his units (I actually wrong a really long blog post about this). But I think the rest of the game is fine and can probably be fixed with a few minor tweaks.
Reverting the Hydra buff would make Blink play better which by default would weaken Muta openings, so you'd only ever have to deal with Muta as a tech switch (which you can anticipate to an extent if you're good) or as an unscouted opening (in which case you deserve to lose).
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On October 17 2014 05:14 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now. It sounds like you just need to practice your PvZ. The matchup is not that broken. 45% win rates at the professional level are one thing when we're in a thread discussing balance, but calling the game unwinable or retarded when you're just someone playing at home is straight up silly. There are a billion things you could do better before the balance of the game becomes relevant to you. I was sitting at top 40 GM this season with 56% win rate versus Zerg. I'm not blind. It doesn't matter if I win or lose. I still possess an iota of common sense. You'd have to be blind to not see how blatant this is. Blizzard even saw this. That's bad.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3595294/1/Playa/
Nice tag
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On October 17 2014 05:29 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 05:14 playa wrote:On October 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now. It sounds like you just need to practice your PvZ. The matchup is not that broken. 45% win rates at the professional level are one thing when we're in a thread discussing balance, but calling the game unwinable or retarded when you're just someone playing at home is straight up silly. There are a billion things you could do better before the balance of the game becomes relevant to you. I was sitting at top 40 GM this season with 56% win rate versus Zerg. I'm not blind. It doesn't matter if I win or lose. I still possess an iota of common sense. You'd have to be blind to not see how blatant this is. Blizzard even saw this. That's bad. Well, for someone who is clearly very good at the game you seem to have a very narrow minded approach towards it. I think Swarm Hosts are poorly designed in that they don't require the Zerg player to take enough risk with his units (I actually wrong a really long blog post about this). But I think the rest of the game is fine and can probably be fixed with a few minor tweaks. Reverting the Hydra buff would make Blink play better which by default would weaken Muta openings, so you'd only ever have to deal with Muta as a tech switch (which you can anticipate to an extent if you're good) or as an unscouted opening (in which case you deserve to lose).
The most important thing to note about swarm hosts is no one likes them. People who win with them don't even like them. I'd rather play an imbalanced game, super human mutas and all, than play a game where it looks like they're actively trying to kill the player/viewing base. It's hard to have confidence in anyone when you see this and when you see it continue to go on. Who is calling the shots? Who is coming up with this stuff. It's disheartening, which is a euphemism for pathetic.
You can't even really talk about swarm hosts balance either. It varies from map to map... on overgrowth you shouldn't beat swarm hosts. On deadwing, you shouldn't lose to them. The unit is rarely ever balanced one way or the other. It's an atrocity left there to remind you "to not get your hopes up too high..."
I've played BW. I've played this game. I've seen the counters that other races have. I've seen what mutas allow you to do in this game. Anyone can win going mutas. I'm telling you, all of these great foreigner Zergs start to look pretty pedestrian pretty quickly when they forget to make mutas. You hear the photon overcharge argument: O, I can't tell a top pro from a bronze player. Well, to me, that's mutas...
Mutas are the biggest disappointment in this game besides swarm hosts still being in the game. In BW, Jaedong using mutas was nothing like even other S class pros using mutas. The effectiveness varied so greatly between players, due to their micro. Now, Jaedong probably cries himself to sleep thinking about the difference. It's not right.
Terran has marines that can kill mutas, no problem. Then they get widow mines, that can kill them, no problem. Then they get thors... Then they have turrets that cause mutas to actually fly away. Have you ever seen mutas fly away from a cannon or two? Not likely. We have NOTHING. The only thing we have becomes even more useless as soon as they decide to use their free eco advantage via making mutas, to tech switch.
Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
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On October 17 2014 03:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
A question to everyone while on the topic of Protoss air units.
How much damage can we give the interceptor before it is too powerful?
Like, imagine if the interceptor had the same range and damage capabilities of locus. How much can we buff carriers before they become OP?
You can buff interceptor damage A TON. Doesn't take away the major problem of the Carrier. The transition takes TOOOOOO long...
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On October 17 2014 05:44 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 05:29 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 05:14 playa wrote:On October 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now. It sounds like you just need to practice your PvZ. The matchup is not that broken. 45% win rates at the professional level are one thing when we're in a thread discussing balance, but calling the game unwinable or retarded when you're just someone playing at home is straight up silly. There are a billion things you could do better before the balance of the game becomes relevant to you. I was sitting at top 40 GM this season with 56% win rate versus Zerg. I'm not blind. It doesn't matter if I win or lose. I still possess an iota of common sense. You'd have to be blind to not see how blatant this is. Blizzard even saw this. That's bad. Well, for someone who is clearly very good at the game you seem to have a very narrow minded approach towards it. I think Swarm Hosts are poorly designed in that they don't require the Zerg player to take enough risk with his units (I actually wrong a really long blog post about this). But I think the rest of the game is fine and can probably be fixed with a few minor tweaks. Reverting the Hydra buff would make Blink play better which by default would weaken Muta openings, so you'd only ever have to deal with Muta as a tech switch (which you can anticipate to an extent if you're good) or as an unscouted opening (in which case you deserve to lose). The most important thing to note about swarm hosts is no one likes them. People who win with them don't even like them. I'd rather play an imbalanced game, super human mutas and all, than play a game where it looks like they're actively trying to kill the player/viewing base. It's hard to have confidence in anyone when you see this and when you see it continue to go on. Who is calling the shots? Who is coming up with this stuff. It's disheartening, which is a euphemism for pathetic. You can't even really talk about swarm hosts balance either. It varies from map to map... on overgrowth you shouldn't beat swarm hosts. On deadwing, you shouldn't lose to them. The unit is rarely ever balanced one way or the other. It's an atrocity left there to remind you "to not get your hopes up too high..." I've played BW. I've played this game. I've seen the counters that other races have. I've seen what mutas allow you to do in this game. Anyone can win going mutas. I'm telling you, all of these great foreigner Zergs start to look pretty pedestrian pretty quickly when they forget to make mutas. You hear the photon overcharge argument: O, I can't tell a top pro from a bronze player. Well, to me, that's mutas... Mutas are the biggest disappointment in this game besides swarm hosts still being in the game. In BW, Jaedong using mutas was nothing like even other S class pros using mutas. The effectiveness varied so greatly between players, due to their micro. Now, Jaedong probably cries himself to sleep thinking about the difference. It's not right. Terran has marines that can kill mutas, no problem. Then they get widow mines, that can kill them, no problem. Then they get thors... Then they have turrets that cause mutas to actually fly away. Have you ever seen mutas fly away from a cannon or two? Not likely. We have NOTHING. The only thing we have becomes even more useless as soon as they decide to use their free eco advantage via making mutas, to tech switch. Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
okay, i tried to take you serious, but now its just lol. It seems that can play the game at a certain lvl, but complain on only one strat at all, while no protoss, on your lvl, above your lvl or under your lvl complains about it. I dont know if you play professional or if you are a so called NA Ladder hero, but you have to change your mindset at this point if you want to overcome this situation, protoss wount get something for mutas for a long time ( lotv will come out earliest next year possible after directly after blizzcon 2015 ) and you have units to use like all other protoss next to you.
We rarely see mutas at all in the meta, because they are that expensive and you need at least a bank of 2,5k/2,5 to make them work. Small portions of mutas are scrap in PvZ. A Protoss who does not fight against swarmhost, wont let this bank happen. We talked now 3 sites about this, about scouting, about openings, about more scouting, about countering, but you will not change your mind, your mindset is the problem at this moment, not the mutas. When you play at a prof. lvl, you can ask your protoss friends and teamm8, they will show you how to work against it.
But still, your last sentence showed clearly, how much your mindset affects your jugdement abilities: We see 4 Zergs at all in Blizzcon, we see rarely much Zergs under the current top players. Yeah, we see alot of Zergs in the midtier of the GM ladder and turnaments, mostly in SEA where allmost everybody plays Zerg. But outside of China, Taiwan and SEA we see a good ratio of Terran, Protoss and Zerg. Hell, in the GM there are more terrans and Zergs atm where as in Plat there alot more Zergs.
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Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
duno where the last part came from?
Naniwa when active was argueably the best non korean ( and was a top foriegner for a very long time)
huk was a top foriegner and toss
welmu was considered a strong foriegner a few months ago
so the idea that top forigners arnt ever protoss is kinda a bit off?
thought the arguement its not particularly skillfull of a strategy could be said of many different strategies in the game? ie 8 gate or 4 gate pressure etc
tbh though massive tech switches are one of the few ways for a zerg to win zvp, because few armies actually compete with lategame protoss
ignoring allins + timings etc the lategame options for zerg are basically massive tech switch/ SH / queen-ultra-infestor-viper style
the first abuses the zerg mechanic but puts you on a timer to do some damage/ commit to a basetrade
the second uses a poorly designed unit that very few people will even try to defend
and the third relies on an extremely slow, hard to max out out on composition that requires massive creepsread + heavy spellcaster control
i dont think the matchup is anywhere near as imbalanced as your making it sound, and protosses at the top level dont seem to struggle with it at all
that being said id like to see things switched up a bit for legacy to give some more solid rather than gimmicky options lategame
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On October 17 2014 06:11 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 05:44 playa wrote:On October 17 2014 05:29 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 05:14 playa wrote:On October 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now. It sounds like you just need to practice your PvZ. The matchup is not that broken. 45% win rates at the professional level are one thing when we're in a thread discussing balance, but calling the game unwinable or retarded when you're just someone playing at home is straight up silly. There are a billion things you could do better before the balance of the game becomes relevant to you. I was sitting at top 40 GM this season with 56% win rate versus Zerg. I'm not blind. It doesn't matter if I win or lose. I still possess an iota of common sense. You'd have to be blind to not see how blatant this is. Blizzard even saw this. That's bad. Well, for someone who is clearly very good at the game you seem to have a very narrow minded approach towards it. I think Swarm Hosts are poorly designed in that they don't require the Zerg player to take enough risk with his units (I actually wrong a really long blog post about this). But I think the rest of the game is fine and can probably be fixed with a few minor tweaks. Reverting the Hydra buff would make Blink play better which by default would weaken Muta openings, so you'd only ever have to deal with Muta as a tech switch (which you can anticipate to an extent if you're good) or as an unscouted opening (in which case you deserve to lose). The most important thing to note about swarm hosts is no one likes them. People who win with them don't even like them. I'd rather play an imbalanced game, super human mutas and all, than play a game where it looks like they're actively trying to kill the player/viewing base. It's hard to have confidence in anyone when you see this and when you see it continue to go on. Who is calling the shots? Who is coming up with this stuff. It's disheartening, which is a euphemism for pathetic. You can't even really talk about swarm hosts balance either. It varies from map to map... on overgrowth you shouldn't beat swarm hosts. On deadwing, you shouldn't lose to them. The unit is rarely ever balanced one way or the other. It's an atrocity left there to remind you "to not get your hopes up too high..." I've played BW. I've played this game. I've seen the counters that other races have. I've seen what mutas allow you to do in this game. Anyone can win going mutas. I'm telling you, all of these great foreigner Zergs start to look pretty pedestrian pretty quickly when they forget to make mutas. You hear the photon overcharge argument: O, I can't tell a top pro from a bronze player. Well, to me, that's mutas... Mutas are the biggest disappointment in this game besides swarm hosts still being in the game. In BW, Jaedong using mutas was nothing like even other S class pros using mutas. The effectiveness varied so greatly between players, due to their micro. Now, Jaedong probably cries himself to sleep thinking about the difference. It's not right. Terran has marines that can kill mutas, no problem. Then they get widow mines, that can kill them, no problem. Then they get thors... Then they have turrets that cause mutas to actually fly away. Have you ever seen mutas fly away from a cannon or two? Not likely. We have NOTHING. The only thing we have becomes even more useless as soon as they decide to use their free eco advantage via making mutas, to tech switch. Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
okay, i tried to take you serious, but now its just lol. It seems that can play the game at a certain lvl, but complain on only one strat at all, while no protoss, on your lvl, above your lvl or under your lvl complains about it. I dont know if you play professional or if you are a so called NA Ladder hero, but you have to change your mindset at this point if you want to overcome this situation, protoss wount get something for mutas for a long time ( lotv will come out earliest next year possible after directly after blizzcon 2015 ) and you have units to use like all other protoss next to you. We rarely see mutas at all in the meta, because they are that expensive and you need at least a bank of 2,5k/2,5 to make them work. Small portions of mutas are scrap in PvZ. A Protoss who does not fight against swarmhost, wont let this bank happen. We talked now 3 sites about this, about scouting, about openings, about more scouting, about countering, but you will not change your mind, your mindset is the problem at this moment, not the mutas. When you play at a prof. lvl, you can ask your protoss friends and teamm8, they will show you how to work against it. But still, your last sentence showed clearly, how much your mindset affects your jugdement abilities: We see 4 Zergs at all in Blizzcon, we see rarely much Zergs under the current top players. Yeah, we see alot of Zergs in the midtier of the GM ladder and turnaments, mostly in SEA where allmost everybody plays Zerg. But outside of China, Taiwan and SEA we see a good ratio of Terran, Protoss and Zerg. Hell, in the GM there are more terrans and Zergs atm where as in Plat there alot more Zergs.
It's no secret that if you're a non Korean and you want to be able to compete with Koreans, historically, Zerg is the race... I saw some stats that if your goal was to make it to diamond league, you had a 15% higher chance of doing so if you simply picked Zerg... You can't go from watching/playing BW and then have much respect for these players.
In BW it was the hardest race to micro imo. It was the hardest race, period, in my eyes. If someone could control all of their units when there weren't even enough hotkeys for them... that was awe inspiring to me. Then you factor in how big of a difference there was in muta micro and defiler usage... if you were a top player, you really earned it.
Now you watch "top players," playing with 1-3 hotkeys late game, post hive, using "do-it-all" units, where everyone looks the same... It's just horrible for esports and is like whatever. Outside of creep spread, when do you get to truly be impressed by anything a Zerg player does? If there is an A move race, it's Zerg.
I'm so mad over the Terran buffs. You know why? Now Zerg can't A-move mutas like they do against Toss and win. So, I'm always going to have to hear about how imbalanced Terran is, even though Zerg will still have a win% adv against them... It's a distraction. If P vs Z was at 40% would we have heard anything about it if I didn't say anything? Probably not. Business as usual. Circle jerking about how OP or UP Terran is. Story never changes. No one knows anything other than to regurgitate what the popular theme is for the day.
I have to either be somewhat hopeful about LotV coming out soon or the complete opposite. I can't tell you the last time I remember hearing anything about P vs Z from Blizzard. If I did it was "swarm hosts are great. Yeah, everyone seems to like them. Nothing to see here." Probably more likely to hear a balance update on BW...
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On October 17 2014 06:30 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +
Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
duno where the last part came from? Naniwa when active was argueably the best non korean ( and was a top foriegner for a very long time) huk was a top foriegner and toss welmu was considered a strong foriegner a few months ago so the idea that top forigners arnt ever protoss is kinda a bit off? thought the arguement its not particularly skillfull of a strategy could be said of many different strategies in the game? ie 8 gate or 4 gate pressure etc tbh though massive tech switches are one of the few ways for a zerg to win zvp, because few armies actually compete with lategame protoss ignoring allins + timings etc the lategame options for zerg are basically massive tech switch/ SH / queen-ultra-infestor-viper style the first abuses the zerg mechanic but puts you on a timer to do some damage/ commit to a basetrade the second uses a poorly designed unit that very few people will even try to defend and the third relies on an extremely slow, hard to max out out on composition that requires massive creepsread + heavy spellcaster control i dont think the matchup is anywhere near as imbalanced as your making it sound, and protosses at the top level dont seem to struggle with it at all that being said id like to see things switched up a bit for legacy to give some more solid rather than gimmicky options lategame
Naniwa is the PERFECT example for how horrible this matchup is. Naniwa was the best non Korean Toss by a large margin. He was winning more money than nearly anyone. He was probably on the highest paying team. Yet, guess what, he couldn't handle playing against Zerg anymore. If you can't expect a person in his position to be able to tolerate practicing this matchup, then how on earth can you expect people to play it for fun? What is their compensation for having to deal with this? Could you imagine doing what Naniwa did? Your game has problems when that's even a possibility.
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On October 17 2014 06:34 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 06:30 Enigmasc wrote:
Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
duno where the last part came from? Naniwa when active was argueably the best non korean ( and was a top foriegner for a very long time) huk was a top foriegner and toss welmu was considered a strong foriegner a few months ago so the idea that top forigners arnt ever protoss is kinda a bit off? thought the arguement its not particularly skillfull of a strategy could be said of many different strategies in the game? ie 8 gate or 4 gate pressure etc tbh though massive tech switches are one of the few ways for a zerg to win zvp, because few armies actually compete with lategame protoss ignoring allins + timings etc the lategame options for zerg are basically massive tech switch/ SH / queen-ultra-infestor-viper style the first abuses the zerg mechanic but puts you on a timer to do some damage/ commit to a basetrade the second uses a poorly designed unit that very few people will even try to defend and the third relies on an extremely slow, hard to max out out on composition that requires massive creepsread + heavy spellcaster control i dont think the matchup is anywhere near as imbalanced as your making it sound, and protosses at the top level dont seem to struggle with it at all that being said id like to see things switched up a bit for legacy to give some more solid rather than gimmicky options lategame Naniwa is the PERFECT example for how horrible this matchup is. Naniwa was the best non Korean Toss by a large margin. He was winning more money than nearly anyone. He was probably on the highest paying team. Yet, guess what, he couldn't handle playing against Zerg anymore. If you can't expect a person in his position to be able to tolerate practicing this matchup, then how on earth can you expect people to play it for fun? What is their compensation for having to deal with this? Could you imagine doing what Naniwa did? Your game has problems when that's even a possibility.
I wouldn't use Naniwa as an example. He's a brilliant player but he clearly has attitude problems. I still use a build he developped and am using it to win a ridiculously high percentage of my PvZs.
PvZ was in a pretty good state pre Hydra buff and for a while after the buff until Zergs started getting Hydras earlier as a way to hold allins. Sure Swarm Hosts kind of suck but it's not THAT big of a deal - it's annoying from time to time but it's not impeding me from playing or enjoying the game.
Hopefully they can make some changes to address the boring Swarm Host problem in LotV and give P something that's good against mass Muta switches but doesn't totally blow against everything else.
Still, how many games do you play that actually result in 30+ Mutas on the field? The way you describe it it sounds like every game, but you and I both know that's not true.
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It's no secret that if you're a non Korean and you want to be able to compete with Koreans, historically, Zerg is the race... I saw some stats that if your goal was to make it to diamond league, you had a 15% higher chance of doing so if you simply picked Zerg
You can get Masters with protoss by learning how to execute 3 all ins with protoss, what's your point?
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Hell I've been using the man train since August and I've lost all of 2 games on the ladder with it.
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On October 17 2014 07:07 DinoMight wrote:
Hell I've been using the man train since August and I've lost all of 2 games on the ladder with it. It weirds me out how often my zerg friends die to it, since it's the one all in I have never lost to.
And I have an incredible talent for dying to all ins it's so great that I once lost to an 8 pool with 14 pool :D.
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On October 17 2014 07:14 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 07:07 DinoMight wrote:
Hell I've been using the man train since August and I've lost all of 2 games on the ladder with it. It weirds me out how often my zerg friends die to it, since it's the one all in I have never lost to. And I have an incredible talent for dying to all ins it's so great that I once lost to an 8 pool with 14 pool :D.
How do you beat it?
The only 2-3 times I lost with it:
Blind 2 base Muta, finished as my WP was arriving and sniped it
Accidentally let him kill my WP with queens
Otherwise every single game I'm ROFLSTOMPING with it. Beating Masters players too (I'm Diamond currently).
EDIT - I've had another 2-3 games where they cut drones so early that they have a ton of units to defend it, but I just end up economically ahead and win a few minutes later.
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On October 17 2014 07:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 07:14 HellHound wrote:On October 17 2014 07:07 DinoMight wrote:
Hell I've been using the man train since August and I've lost all of 2 games on the ladder with it. It weirds me out how often my zerg friends die to it, since it's the one all in I have never lost to. And I have an incredible talent for dying to all ins it's so great that I once lost to an 8 pool with 14 pool :D. How do you beat it? The only 2-3 times I lost with it: Blind 2 base Muta, finished as my WP was arriving and sniped it Accidentally let him kill my WP with queens Otherwise every single game I'm ROFLSTOMPING with it. Beating Masters players too (I'm Diamond currently). EDIT - I've had another 2-3 games where they cut drones so early that they have a ton of units to defend it, but I just end up economically ahead and win a few minutes later. Unless I am trying to be a wannabe catz I usually end up defending it with just roach ling and sometimes queens (imba imba imba unit).
Usually I just move the lings behind the all in fake trying to break his walloff (they tend to react and comeback about half the time for reasons I don't understand) and if he doesn't react just stay close behind with the lings to try to pick off pylons (if any go up) and flank immortals with them while roaches kite zealots.
Pulling queens to the rescuse is also cool they are awesome units for tanking.
I don't really understand why it's hard to hold as long as you have decent creep to have space to play around on.(And don't misread  )
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On October 17 2014 06:34 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 06:30 Enigmasc wrote:
Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
duno where the last part came from? Naniwa when active was argueably the best non korean ( and was a top foriegner for a very long time) huk was a top foriegner and toss welmu was considered a strong foriegner a few months ago so the idea that top forigners arnt ever protoss is kinda a bit off? thought the arguement its not particularly skillfull of a strategy could be said of many different strategies in the game? ie 8 gate or 4 gate pressure etc tbh though massive tech switches are one of the few ways for a zerg to win zvp, because few armies actually compete with lategame protoss ignoring allins + timings etc the lategame options for zerg are basically massive tech switch/ SH / queen-ultra-infestor-viper style the first abuses the zerg mechanic but puts you on a timer to do some damage/ commit to a basetrade the second uses a poorly designed unit that very few people will even try to defend and the third relies on an extremely slow, hard to max out out on composition that requires massive creepsread + heavy spellcaster control i dont think the matchup is anywhere near as imbalanced as your making it sound, and protosses at the top level dont seem to struggle with it at all that being said id like to see things switched up a bit for legacy to give some more solid rather than gimmicky options lategame Naniwa is the PERFECT example for how horrible this matchup is. Naniwa was the best non Korean Toss by a large margin. He was winning more money than nearly anyone. He was probably on the highest paying team. Yet, guess what, he couldn't handle playing against Zerg anymore. If you can't expect a person in his position to be able to tolerate practicing this matchup, then how on earth can you expect people to play it for fun? What is their compensation for having to deal with this? Could you imagine doing what Naniwa did? Your game has problems when that's even a possibility.
Same goes for idra, doesn't it? Just the other way round.
... and both probably had about the same "attitude issues" as well.
Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
And I think it's absolut bullshit that there are no good non-Korean Protoss.
WCS EU 3:
7 Protoss
8 Zerg
7 Terran
WCS NA 3:
6 Protoss
6 Zerg
4 Terran
WCS EU 2:
8 Protoss
8 Zerg
5 Terran
WCS NA 2:
5 Protoss
6 Zerg
5 Terran
WCS EU 1:
9 Protoss
11 Zerg
4 Terran
WCS NA 1:
7 Protoss
4 Zerg
4 Terran
In the entire WCS Season 2014:
2 foreign Terrans reached the Ro8, 4 Zerg and 3 Protoss. None of them reached the Ro4.
Or the most earning players:
1. Stephano
2. Naniwa
3. Snute
4. Mana
5. Scarlett
6. Nerchio
7. Sen
8. Huk
9. Thorzain
10. Vortix
-> 6 Zerg, 3 Protoss, 1 Terran
I mean... how could you possibly be more wrong?
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On October 17 2014 06:34 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 06:30 Enigmasc wrote:
Listen this mu is a farce and Blizzard is going to add something to deal with it. I'm 100% certain of this, and I'm still pissed off/have to vent. Hopefully one day, sometime in the future, we can have a good non Korean who isn't Zerg or Terran for a change. That would be kinda neat. Then again, I mean... all of the talented players just happened to pick Zerg. Weird how that works out.
duno where the last part came from? Naniwa when active was argueably the best non korean ( and was a top foriegner for a very long time) huk was a top foriegner and toss welmu was considered a strong foriegner a few months ago so the idea that top forigners arnt ever protoss is kinda a bit off? thought the arguement its not particularly skillfull of a strategy could be said of many different strategies in the game? ie 8 gate or 4 gate pressure etc tbh though massive tech switches are one of the few ways for a zerg to win zvp, because few armies actually compete with lategame protoss ignoring allins + timings etc the lategame options for zerg are basically massive tech switch/ SH / queen-ultra-infestor-viper style the first abuses the zerg mechanic but puts you on a timer to do some damage/ commit to a basetrade the second uses a poorly designed unit that very few people will even try to defend and the third relies on an extremely slow, hard to max out out on composition that requires massive creepsread + heavy spellcaster control i dont think the matchup is anywhere near as imbalanced as your making it sound, and protosses at the top level dont seem to struggle with it at all that being said id like to see things switched up a bit for legacy to give some more solid rather than gimmicky options lategame Naniwa is the PERFECT example for how horrible this matchup is. Naniwa was the best non Korean Toss by a large margin. He was winning more money than nearly anyone. He was probably on the highest paying team. Yet, guess what, he couldn't handle playing against Zerg anymore. If you can't expect a person in his position to be able to tolerate practicing this matchup, then how on earth can you expect people to play it for fun? What is their compensation for having to deal with this? Could you imagine doing what Naniwa did? Your game has problems when that's even a possibility.
naniwa was due to the SH being a poorly designed unit not because of muta ( which is what your complaining about)
you really sound blinded by your own tilting and hatred of mutas..
mutas are hardley amove units, you dont exactly box and click on the protoss army and win, and the phoenix muta mciro battle can be quite intense
its not like everyone of protosses units are as micro intensive and rewarding as phoenix /sentries etc mean look at voidrays or collosus for an example
also how on earth does earnings of non-koreans historically have anything to do with the current state of ZvP?
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Where did Thorzain earn those money to get into most earning list?
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On October 17 2014 07:07 DinoMight wrote:
Hell I've been using the man train since August and I've lost all of 2 games on the ladder with it.
Holy shit, thanks for mentioning this. Been trying it out tonight and have not lost a game with it so far.
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On October 17 2014 07:41 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 07:22 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 07:14 HellHound wrote:On October 17 2014 07:07 DinoMight wrote:
Hell I've been using the man train since August and I've lost all of 2 games on the ladder with it. It weirds me out how often my zerg friends die to it, since it's the one all in I have never lost to. And I have an incredible talent for dying to all ins it's so great that I once lost to an 8 pool with 14 pool :D. How do you beat it? The only 2-3 times I lost with it: Blind 2 base Muta, finished as my WP was arriving and sniped it Accidentally let him kill my WP with queens Otherwise every single game I'm ROFLSTOMPING with it. Beating Masters players too (I'm Diamond currently). EDIT - I've had another 2-3 games where they cut drones so early that they have a ton of units to defend it, but I just end up economically ahead and win a few minutes later. Unless I am trying to be a wannabe catz I usually end up defending it with just roach ling and sometimes queens (imba imba imba unit). Usually I just move the lings behind the all in fake trying to break his walloff (they tend to react and comeback about half the time for reasons I don't understand) and if he doesn't react just stay close behind with the lings to try to pick off pylons (if any go up) and flank immortals with them while roaches kite zealots. Pulling queens to the rescuse is also cool they are awesome units for tanking. I don't really understand why it's hard to hold as long as you have decent creep to have space to play around on.(And don't misread )
Um, they dont make a warp prism with it? I don't rely on proxy pylons at all for it, i fly into their main at around 9 m with 2 immos and warp in around 8 +1 zealots and i have 1-2 time warps to work with.
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EPT
