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On October 17 2014 02:55 brickrd wrote:
protoss players are literally lying about it being impossible to fight mutas without phoenix. yes, if zerg KEEPS MAKING MASS MUTA you will need phoenix, duh, but i have seen so many games where top pro players handled mutas with a combination of blink stalkers, photon overcharge, archons, etc. while still taking bases and using SCOUTING to know how soon to tech to phoenix. it comes down to who plays better. if you make 10, 15, 20 mutas and your control is bad and protoss isn't COMPLETELY UNPREPARED with absolutely nothing in the mineral lines then you will get absolutely wrecked and likely die to a push soon. muta requires some of the highest level of army attention and micro of any unit in the entire game, it's 100% skill and multitasking
whining about mutas comes down to the classic problem of midleague players not thinking it's fair that they have to scout. you forgot to send out hallucinations so you die and blame it on it being "impossible to play like koreans" when all you had to do was actually focus on scouting as a part of your play... it's not just "make a base and defense it" lol
if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures, etc, so why should protoss be able to sit back with no scouting and be safe against muta switches from a zerg player with a strong economy and competent control?
seriously the backseat balance whiners in this thread stating things as fact like "you can't handle xyz, it's impossible to etc. etc." is just absurd, i know this is the designated balance whine thread but it's still embarrassing
Apparently there are leagues above GM now... Just because you saw something doesn't mean it's not a low% move, in general. You don't end up at 44% due to playing in a high% manner. Whatever we're doing isn't working, and I can assure you, you don't have any right answers.
You're also implying the Toss player needs to be psychic. So if Zerg has around 15 mutas, you're fine with stalkers, but... if they keep making them, then you need phoenix. So, since I'm assuming we're not using production hack... once Zerg has about 30 mutas on the field, then you go into phoenix and it's not too late. Are we making phoenix 1 at a time? Or did we preemptively make multiple stargates "just in case." I personally don't know how to get up to a phoenix count that can counter mass mutas without having 4 + bases or some kind of 3 stargate build.
Phoenix countering mutas is a disingenuous statement to me. It's always mutas + corruptors vs phoenix, unless that is unnecessary; to say they counter mutas, you also have to say they counter corruptors.
In BW mutas were hard enough to deal with when having marines, turrets and science vessels. All of which were better than phoenixes. In SC 2, Toss is pigeon holed into making 1 unit, like that's not exploitable. Anytime that's the case, that unit better just annihilate the unit it's supposed to counter. Blizzard has already said that Toss has no good means of dealing with mass mutas. Do you know how imbalanced something has to be for Blizzard to say anything like that? The numbers are a joke. Yet, everyone just wants to talk about Terran and the widow mine, because it's easier to focus on that unit. No one is decent enough to actually understand anything beyond well the win rate just increased in this mu, and this unit was just buffed, so aha...
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On October 17 2014 03:03 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures This is a good joke. Really, it's good. You're comparing an early game ovie flyby to check if it's a 2 base all-in or not, to trying to nonstop scout whether a tech switch is coming, trying to pay attention to the size of the enemy army and its composition, if the Zerg is making only a few Mutas for harass or mass muta, or if it's going to be a Hydra play right away? Terran pretty much use the same units in every matchup, while Zerg is the king of tech switches. For Protoss it's not nearly as simple...and by the way I'm not sure who you're calling midleague players, but everyone faces this challenge regardless of your level.
yeah, those techswitches have certain timings. Before 11mins you don't have to fear muta and after 14mins it is bad, unless the Protoss derps his whole army.
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On October 17 2014 02:55 brickrd wrote:
protoss players are literally lying about it being impossible to fight mutas without phoenix. yes, if zerg KEEPS MAKING MASS MUTA you will need phoenix, duh, but i have seen so many games where top pro players handled mutas with a combination of blink stalkers, photon overcharge, archons, etc. while still taking bases and using SCOUTING to know how soon to tech to phoenix. it comes down to who plays better. if you make 10, 15, 20 mutas and your control is bad and protoss isn't COMPLETELY UNPREPARED with absolutely nothing in the mineral lines then you will get absolutely wrecked and likely die to a push soon. muta requires some of the highest level of army attention and micro of any unit in the entire game, it's 100% skill and multitasking
whining about mutas comes down to the classic problem of midleague players not thinking it's fair that they have to scout. you forgot to send out hallucinations so you die and blame it on it being "impossible to play like koreans" when all you had to do was actually focus on scouting as a part of your play... it's not just "make a base and defense it" lol
if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures, etc, so why should protoss be able to sit back with no scouting and be safe against muta switches from a zerg player with a strong economy and competent control?
seriously the backseat balance whiners in this thread stating things as fact like "you can't handle xyz, it's impossible to etc. etc." is just absurd, i know this is the designated balance whine thread but it's still embarrassing
You're missing the point entirely.
It's about banking money and switching tech. Zerg players don't just add Muta to their Muta cloud slowly over the course of the game. Usually it's attack with Roach/Hydra/Viper or Swarm Host or whatever, and then BAM 30 Mutas are out all at once.
Yes Phoenixes deal with them well, but the Phoenixes can't be made reactively to such a Muta switch. So you'd need to have them in advance. In which case Zerg simply DOESNT make muta.
Buffed Hydras / Swarm Hosts / Learning how to stop Protoss allins has allowed Zergs to be more economical and bank more minerals than they used to. Hence the tech switch is more effective. At the same time, 2 of the units that require the hardest counters (Hydra - Colossus, and Muta - Phoenixes) have received buffs so that you now absolutely NEED their hard counter to beat any decent number of them.
That's why in my view PvZ has gotten harder.
EDIT - which is why you see either 2 base allins or Protoss trying to take a super greedy 3rd base with an Oracle/Void Ray in order to keep up with the Zerg.
I used to love macro PvZ but now I man train every game  so much fun roflstomping Masters players with it and getting called a noob.
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On October 17 2014 03:14 Eraz0rZ wrote:
In all my games i didnt 3 base allin blink i saw 1 thing.
Zerg economy is too strong.
You literally need to stay on equall bases to beat a zerg these days or have supreme micro+ out positioning.
The fact is the greedier a zerg can be (3 hatch before pool ex.) The bigger there bank will be when they decide what to do versus what protoss has during mid/lategame. Since the entire early game is non existant due to both parties knowing howto defend allins pretty easily.(and protoss forgeexpanding with fast 3rd or get behind) Scouting overlords are now being placed right infront of the protoss base with some lings scouting on the map and zergs would wrather take a quick fourth nowadays then be aggressive in there allin stance.
Mostly because when zerg is allowed to be greedy (and dont mistake me if a zerg has a 4th base before 10 min its greedy) All the good tech becomes available because youve saved somuch larvea. The problem is if the zerg was greedy by going 3 hatch before pool his econ skyrockets exacly when he takes a 4th so you have a VERY small chance to hit a timing to kill or punish it.
Also with ultras seeing more plays nowadays combined with muta there is no reall awnser from protoss since you need both mass phoenix + mass immortal + mass templar vs the speedlings.(protip phoenix are useless vs enmass queens/spores/hydras/ultras/infestor)
And the big issue here is he can take free bases when hes throwing units at you at all time making his bank rediculously high due to better creepspread/vision.
Mines on the other hand are just plain op.
That sounds like a map pool problem to me. Maps with too easy an expansion to defend will lead to that type of gameplay.
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A question to everyone while on the topic of Protoss air units.
How much damage can we give the interceptor before it is too powerful?
Like, imagine if the interceptor had the same range and damage capabilities of locus. How much can we buff carriers before they become OP?
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On October 17 2014 03:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 02:55 brickrd wrote:
protoss players are literally lying about it being impossible to fight mutas without phoenix. yes, if zerg KEEPS MAKING MASS MUTA you will need phoenix, duh, but i have seen so many games where top pro players handled mutas with a combination of blink stalkers, photon overcharge, archons, etc. while still taking bases and using SCOUTING to know how soon to tech to phoenix. it comes down to who plays better. if you make 10, 15, 20 mutas and your control is bad and protoss isn't COMPLETELY UNPREPARED with absolutely nothing in the mineral lines then you will get absolutely wrecked and likely die to a push soon. muta requires some of the highest level of army attention and micro of any unit in the entire game, it's 100% skill and multitasking
whining about mutas comes down to the classic problem of midleague players not thinking it's fair that they have to scout. you forgot to send out hallucinations so you die and blame it on it being "impossible to play like koreans" when all you had to do was actually focus on scouting as a part of your play... it's not just "make a base and defense it" lol
if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures, etc, so why should protoss be able to sit back with no scouting and be safe against muta switches from a zerg player with a strong economy and competent control?
seriously the backseat balance whiners in this thread stating things as fact like "you can't handle xyz, it's impossible to etc. etc." is just absurd, i know this is the designated balance whine thread but it's still embarrassing You're missing the point entirely. It's about banking money and switching tech. Zerg players don't just add Muta to their Muta cloud slowly over the course of the game. Usually it's attack with Roach/Hydra/Viper or Swarm Host or whatever, and then BAM 30 Mutas are out all at once. Yes Phoenixes deal with them well, but the Phoenixes can't be made reactively to such a Muta switch. So you'd need to have them in advance. In which case Zerg simply DOESNT make muta. Buffed Hydras / Swarm Hosts / Learning how to stop Protoss allins has allowed Zergs to be more economical and bank more minerals than they used to. Hence the tech switch is more effective. At the same time, 2 of the units that require the hardest counters (Hydra - Colossus, and Muta - Phoenixes) have received buffs so that you now absolutely NEED their hard counter to beat any decent number of them. That's why in my view PvZ has gotten harder. EDIT - which is why you see either 2 base allins or Protoss trying to take a super greedy 3rd base with an Oracle/Void Ray in order to keep up with the Zerg.I used to love macro PvZ but now I man train every game so much fun roflstomping Masters players with it and getting called a noob.
Why is this greedy? I don't see what would straight up counter this. The Oracle forces spores and gives scouting, the VR makes you safe against fast roach-play. Ling play is countered by a walled-in canon. A Zerg may be able to cancel or kill the third at that point, but doing so he will usually come out behind because it's done of 30-40drones vs 50probes, SG up and more tech behind.
If I have to be completely honest (and add a little unreasonable rage ), I think this discussion is led by the same type of diamond Protoss players I face on the ladder, who go robo-no-matter-what and then call mutalisks overpowered. I mean, I'm facing more double robo after third builds than Stargate/Robo builds from diamonds and masters. Of course you die to mutalisks. It's not a viable build order.
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On October 17 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 03:27 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 02:55 brickrd wrote:
protoss players are literally lying about it being impossible to fight mutas without phoenix. yes, if zerg KEEPS MAKING MASS MUTA you will need phoenix, duh, but i have seen so many games where top pro players handled mutas with a combination of blink stalkers, photon overcharge, archons, etc. while still taking bases and using SCOUTING to know how soon to tech to phoenix. it comes down to who plays better. if you make 10, 15, 20 mutas and your control is bad and protoss isn't COMPLETELY UNPREPARED with absolutely nothing in the mineral lines then you will get absolutely wrecked and likely die to a push soon. muta requires some of the highest level of army attention and micro of any unit in the entire game, it's 100% skill and multitasking
whining about mutas comes down to the classic problem of midleague players not thinking it's fair that they have to scout. you forgot to send out hallucinations so you die and blame it on it being "impossible to play like koreans" when all you had to do was actually focus on scouting as a part of your play... it's not just "make a base and defense it" lol
if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures, etc, so why should protoss be able to sit back with no scouting and be safe against muta switches from a zerg player with a strong economy and competent control?
seriously the backseat balance whiners in this thread stating things as fact like "you can't handle xyz, it's impossible to etc. etc." is just absurd, i know this is the designated balance whine thread but it's still embarrassing You're missing the point entirely. It's about banking money and switching tech. Zerg players don't just add Muta to their Muta cloud slowly over the course of the game. Usually it's attack with Roach/Hydra/Viper or Swarm Host or whatever, and then BAM 30 Mutas are out all at once. Yes Phoenixes deal with them well, but the Phoenixes can't be made reactively to such a Muta switch. So you'd need to have them in advance. In which case Zerg simply DOESNT make muta. Buffed Hydras / Swarm Hosts / Learning how to stop Protoss allins has allowed Zergs to be more economical and bank more minerals than they used to. Hence the tech switch is more effective. At the same time, 2 of the units that require the hardest counters (Hydra - Colossus, and Muta - Phoenixes) have received buffs so that you now absolutely NEED their hard counter to beat any decent number of them. That's why in my view PvZ has gotten harder. EDIT - which is why you see either 2 base allins or Protoss trying to take a super greedy 3rd base with an Oracle/Void Ray in order to keep up with the Zerg.I used to love macro PvZ but now I man train every game so much fun roflstomping Masters players with it and getting called a noob. Why is this greedy? I don't see what would straight up counter this. The Oracle forces spores and gives scouting, the VR makes you safe against fast roach-play. Ling play is countered by a walled-in canon. A Zerg may be able to cancel or kill the third at that point, but doing so he will usually come out behind because it's done of 30-40drones vs 50probes, SG up and more tech behind. If I have to be completely honest (and add a little unreasonable rage ), I think this discussion is led by the same type of diamond Protoss players I face on the ladder, who go robo-no-matter-what and then call mutalisks overpowered. I mean, I'm facing more double robo after third builds than Stargate/Robo builds from diamonds and masters. Of course you die to mutalisks. It's not a viable build order.
Haha
Well, it's greedy because if the Zerg scouts it there are a few Roach/Hydra timings that can punish it pretty hard the Protoss has SOME tech, but no splash damage (which is key for fighting masses of Hydras). I've seen many pro Protoss players lose their third to such a push and then straight up die to a follow-up.
Of course if you go double Robo you can lose to Spire, I mean that's the point! But that's just bad play by the Protoss. The strength of Muta is not just "make muta, win" but rather tech switch INTO muta after a big battle that resets army count a bit. Then all of a sudden Protoss needs a totally different kind of army to defend with and the Mutas fly around killing econ.
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About carriers: The only thing not weak in carriers is interceptor damage XD you can buff anything except damage, +1 is already a lot and probably makes Skytoss with carriers an OP composition, altought still hard to pull (maybe still not viable)
About muta transition: That time when zerg got a 3k mineral and gas bank and a sizeable roach hydra viper army... i guess you can afford 3 stargates, if not, you already lost, zerg can remax with roach hydra viper again and kill you. Versus a swarmhost army you need and you should be able to keep up in bases and have a good economy while doing economical damage, even if zerg is trading much better you either have money to hold the remax or you are dead.
I guess there is a problem with good maps for swarmhosts, where its easier for zerg to defend and siege, and hard for protoss to mass expand. On those you can mantrain or go blink, its even possible to steamroll a swarmhosts army in good korean fashion before it snowballs out of control.
Don't think its a balance problem when a roach hydra viper player kills a protoss with a 3k 3k bank tech switch.
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On October 17 2014 03:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
A question to everyone while on the topic of Protoss air units.
How much damage can we give the interceptor before it is too powerful?
Like, imagine if the interceptor had the same range and damage capabilities of locus. How much can we buff carriers before they become OP?
Not sure how to answer the question personally but to add a few notes/thoughts:
The biggest issue with carriers is that they take about four years to build and cost roughly the economic output of New York City. Ok, I'm exaggerating quite a bit here. Looking at the numbers involved Carriers/Interceptors should actually be better than Locusts. Carriers cost 150 minerals more, 150 gas more, take three times longer to build and the individual "swarm" units cost minerals (which adds an extra 100 minerals to your cost for a start).
There are some advantages...more interceptors per Carrier, higher DPS (Interceptor DPS is actually really good), slightly more health, faster. Some of these are nullified by the fact that the Carrier has to be relatively close to attack which means its more likely to be shot down (a fully loaded Carrier is worth 450 minerals, 250 gas).
Assuming costs stayed the same I'd probably say that the biggest problems with the Carrier are:
1. The vulnerability of both the Carrier and its Interceptors...especially given how much Interceptors cost and that you can't control them directly.
2. The fairly short range of the Carrier.
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On October 17 2014 04:09 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:On October 17 2014 03:27 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 02:55 brickrd wrote:
protoss players are literally lying about it being impossible to fight mutas without phoenix. yes, if zerg KEEPS MAKING MASS MUTA you will need phoenix, duh, but i have seen so many games where top pro players handled mutas with a combination of blink stalkers, photon overcharge, archons, etc. while still taking bases and using SCOUTING to know how soon to tech to phoenix. it comes down to who plays better. if you make 10, 15, 20 mutas and your control is bad and protoss isn't COMPLETELY UNPREPARED with absolutely nothing in the mineral lines then you will get absolutely wrecked and likely die to a push soon. muta requires some of the highest level of army attention and micro of any unit in the entire game, it's 100% skill and multitasking
whining about mutas comes down to the classic problem of midleague players not thinking it's fair that they have to scout. you forgot to send out hallucinations so you die and blame it on it being "impossible to play like koreans" when all you had to do was actually focus on scouting as a part of your play... it's not just "make a base and defense it" lol
if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures, etc, so why should protoss be able to sit back with no scouting and be safe against muta switches from a zerg player with a strong economy and competent control?
seriously the backseat balance whiners in this thread stating things as fact like "you can't handle xyz, it's impossible to etc. etc." is just absurd, i know this is the designated balance whine thread but it's still embarrassing You're missing the point entirely. It's about banking money and switching tech. Zerg players don't just add Muta to their Muta cloud slowly over the course of the game. Usually it's attack with Roach/Hydra/Viper or Swarm Host or whatever, and then BAM 30 Mutas are out all at once. Yes Phoenixes deal with them well, but the Phoenixes can't be made reactively to such a Muta switch. So you'd need to have them in advance. In which case Zerg simply DOESNT make muta. Buffed Hydras / Swarm Hosts / Learning how to stop Protoss allins has allowed Zergs to be more economical and bank more minerals than they used to. Hence the tech switch is more effective. At the same time, 2 of the units that require the hardest counters (Hydra - Colossus, and Muta - Phoenixes) have received buffs so that you now absolutely NEED their hard counter to beat any decent number of them. That's why in my view PvZ has gotten harder. EDIT - which is why you see either 2 base allins or Protoss trying to take a super greedy 3rd base with an Oracle/Void Ray in order to keep up with the Zerg.I used to love macro PvZ but now I man train every game so much fun roflstomping Masters players with it and getting called a noob. Why is this greedy? I don't see what would straight up counter this. The Oracle forces spores and gives scouting, the VR makes you safe against fast roach-play. Ling play is countered by a walled-in canon. A Zerg may be able to cancel or kill the third at that point, but doing so he will usually come out behind because it's done of 30-40drones vs 50probes, SG up and more tech behind. If I have to be completely honest (and add a little unreasonable rage ), I think this discussion is led by the same type of diamond Protoss players I face on the ladder, who go robo-no-matter-what and then call mutalisks overpowered. I mean, I'm facing more double robo after third builds than Stargate/Robo builds from diamonds and masters. Of course you die to mutalisks. It's not a viable build order. Haha Well, it's greedy because if the Zerg scouts it there are a few Roach/Hydra timings that can punish it pretty hard the Protoss has SOME tech, but no splash damage (which is key for fighting masses of Hydras). I've seen many pro Protoss players lose their third to such a push and then straight up die to a follow-up. Of course if you go double Robo you can lose to Spire, I mean that's the point! But that's just bad play by the Protoss. The strength of Muta is not just "make muta, win" but rather tech switch INTO muta after a big battle that resets army count a bit. Then all of a sudden Protoss needs a totally different kind of army to defend with and the Mutas fly around killing econ.
I don't dislike this dynamic though. It's a little extreme at times in PvZ, but it makes sense that if I hold a push, I get an advantage and can counter and my opponent will have a hard time.
It's a nice back-and-forth dynamic where both sides get to have initiative and fun.
I think roach/hydra hits way too late to punish thae types of thirds. Hydra/ling is a bitch though, but I don't think itbis more powerful than a variety of Protoss attacks.
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On October 17 2014 04:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 04:09 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:On October 17 2014 03:27 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 02:55 brickrd wrote:
protoss players are literally lying about it being impossible to fight mutas without phoenix. yes, if zerg KEEPS MAKING MASS MUTA you will need phoenix, duh, but i have seen so many games where top pro players handled mutas with a combination of blink stalkers, photon overcharge, archons, etc. while still taking bases and using SCOUTING to know how soon to tech to phoenix. it comes down to who plays better. if you make 10, 15, 20 mutas and your control is bad and protoss isn't COMPLETELY UNPREPARED with absolutely nothing in the mineral lines then you will get absolutely wrecked and likely die to a push soon. muta requires some of the highest level of army attention and micro of any unit in the entire game, it's 100% skill and multitasking
whining about mutas comes down to the classic problem of midleague players not thinking it's fair that they have to scout. you forgot to send out hallucinations so you die and blame it on it being "impossible to play like koreans" when all you had to do was actually focus on scouting as a part of your play... it's not just "make a base and defense it" lol
if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures, etc, so why should protoss be able to sit back with no scouting and be safe against muta switches from a zerg player with a strong economy and competent control?
seriously the backseat balance whiners in this thread stating things as fact like "you can't handle xyz, it's impossible to etc. etc." is just absurd, i know this is the designated balance whine thread but it's still embarrassing You're missing the point entirely. It's about banking money and switching tech. Zerg players don't just add Muta to their Muta cloud slowly over the course of the game. Usually it's attack with Roach/Hydra/Viper or Swarm Host or whatever, and then BAM 30 Mutas are out all at once. Yes Phoenixes deal with them well, but the Phoenixes can't be made reactively to such a Muta switch. So you'd need to have them in advance. In which case Zerg simply DOESNT make muta. Buffed Hydras / Swarm Hosts / Learning how to stop Protoss allins has allowed Zergs to be more economical and bank more minerals than they used to. Hence the tech switch is more effective. At the same time, 2 of the units that require the hardest counters (Hydra - Colossus, and Muta - Phoenixes) have received buffs so that you now absolutely NEED their hard counter to beat any decent number of them. That's why in my view PvZ has gotten harder. EDIT - which is why you see either 2 base allins or Protoss trying to take a super greedy 3rd base with an Oracle/Void Ray in order to keep up with the Zerg.I used to love macro PvZ but now I man train every game so much fun roflstomping Masters players with it and getting called a noob. Why is this greedy? I don't see what would straight up counter this. The Oracle forces spores and gives scouting, the VR makes you safe against fast roach-play. Ling play is countered by a walled-in canon. A Zerg may be able to cancel or kill the third at that point, but doing so he will usually come out behind because it's done of 30-40drones vs 50probes, SG up and more tech behind. If I have to be completely honest (and add a little unreasonable rage ), I think this discussion is led by the same type of diamond Protoss players I face on the ladder, who go robo-no-matter-what and then call mutalisks overpowered. I mean, I'm facing more double robo after third builds than Stargate/Robo builds from diamonds and masters. Of course you die to mutalisks. It's not a viable build order. Haha Well, it's greedy because if the Zerg scouts it there are a few Roach/Hydra timings that can punish it pretty hard the Protoss has SOME tech, but no splash damage (which is key for fighting masses of Hydras). I've seen many pro Protoss players lose their third to such a push and then straight up die to a follow-up. Of course if you go double Robo you can lose to Spire, I mean that's the point! But that's just bad play by the Protoss. The strength of Muta is not just "make muta, win" but rather tech switch INTO muta after a big battle that resets army count a bit. Then all of a sudden Protoss needs a totally different kind of army to defend with and the Mutas fly around killing econ. I don't dislike this dynamic though. It's a little extreme at times in PvZ, but it makes sense that if I hold a push, I get an advantage and can counter and my opponent will have a hard time. It's a nice back-and-forth dynamic where both sides get to have initiative and fun. I think roach/hydra hits way too late to punish thae types of thirds. Hydra/ling is a bitch though, but I don't think itbis more powerful than a variety of Protoss attacks.
Its not necessarily a case of "holding a push" though, you can't think of it purely as being a defender. Many times its the result of the Zerg being the aggressor, being held off but still doing damage to the opposing army and then following it up with a remax that cannot be properly responded to in time resulting in massive damage.
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On October 17 2014 04:13 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 03:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
A question to everyone while on the topic of Protoss air units.
How much damage can we give the interceptor before it is too powerful?
Like, imagine if the interceptor had the same range and damage capabilities of locus. How much can we buff carriers before they become OP? Not sure how to answer the question personally but to add a few notes/thoughts: The biggest issue with carriers is that they take about four years to build and cost roughly the economic output of New York City. Ok, I'm exaggerating quite a bit here. Looking at the numbers involved Carriers/Interceptors should actually be better than Locusts. Carriers cost 150 minerals more, 150 gas more, take three times longer to build and the individual "swarm" units cost minerals (which adds an extra 100 minerals to your cost for a start). There are some advantages...more interceptors per Carrier, higher DPS (Interceptor DPS is actually really good), slightly more health, faster. Some of these are nullified by the fact that the Carrier has to be relatively close to attack which means its more likely to be shot down (a fully loaded Carrier is worth 450 minerals, 250 gas). Assuming costs stayed the same I'd probably say that the biggest problems with the Carrier are: 1. The vulnerability of both the Carrier and its Interceptors...especially given how much Interceptors cost and that you can't control them directly. 2. The fairly short range of the Carrier.
Then why not a range boost + build time reduction? How high/low can those numbers be that we get to usable but not OP?
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After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now.
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On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now.
For some reason this sounds more like you are personally having trouble against zerg and are venting your frustration here. Protoss have won huge amounts of tournaments compared to the ones zerg have won. This pretty much shows that protoss is not totally helpless in the top level. Also stats about the top-50 players show that the MU is quite balanced and maybe even favours protoss at the top level.
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On October 17 2014 04:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 04:13 -Celestial- wrote:On October 17 2014 03:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
A question to everyone while on the topic of Protoss air units.
How much damage can we give the interceptor before it is too powerful?
Like, imagine if the interceptor had the same range and damage capabilities of locus. How much can we buff carriers before they become OP? Not sure how to answer the question personally but to add a few notes/thoughts: The biggest issue with carriers is that they take about four years to build and cost roughly the economic output of New York City. Ok, I'm exaggerating quite a bit here. Looking at the numbers involved Carriers/Interceptors should actually be better than Locusts. Carriers cost 150 minerals more, 150 gas more, take three times longer to build and the individual "swarm" units cost minerals (which adds an extra 100 minerals to your cost for a start). There are some advantages...more interceptors per Carrier, higher DPS (Interceptor DPS is actually really good), slightly more health, faster. Some of these are nullified by the fact that the Carrier has to be relatively close to attack which means its more likely to be shot down (a fully loaded Carrier is worth 450 minerals, 250 gas). Assuming costs stayed the same I'd probably say that the biggest problems with the Carrier are: 1. The vulnerability of both the Carrier and its Interceptors...especially given how much Interceptors cost and that you can't control them directly. 2. The fairly short range of the Carrier. Then why not a range boost + build time reduction? How high/low can those numbers be that we get to usable but not OP?
Carriers have a range of 14, and that is huge, maybe increase the launch range to 9 or 10? build time reduced to 10 seconds less? Not sure.
But i don't understand how making the carriers viable would improve any matchup. If Carrier Voidray becomes a thing, its plain stupid, since there is few thing to do other than a-move and move carriers back a bit.
edit: bo1p Some people saying PvZ is imbalanced. And some are raging in the wrong place.
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Is zerg suddenly op now? I don't understand.
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On October 17 2014 04:37 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 04:23 Big J wrote:On October 17 2014 04:09 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:On October 17 2014 03:27 DinoMight wrote:On October 17 2014 02:55 brickrd wrote:
protoss players are literally lying about it being impossible to fight mutas without phoenix. yes, if zerg KEEPS MAKING MASS MUTA you will need phoenix, duh, but i have seen so many games where top pro players handled mutas with a combination of blink stalkers, photon overcharge, archons, etc. while still taking bases and using SCOUTING to know how soon to tech to phoenix. it comes down to who plays better. if you make 10, 15, 20 mutas and your control is bad and protoss isn't COMPLETELY UNPREPARED with absolutely nothing in the mineral lines then you will get absolutely wrecked and likely die to a push soon. muta requires some of the highest level of army attention and micro of any unit in the entire game, it's 100% skill and multitasking
whining about mutas comes down to the classic problem of midleague players not thinking it's fair that they have to scout. you forgot to send out hallucinations so you die and blame it on it being "impossible to play like koreans" when all you had to do was actually focus on scouting as a part of your play... it's not just "make a base and defense it" lol
if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures, etc, so why should protoss be able to sit back with no scouting and be safe against muta switches from a zerg player with a strong economy and competent control?
seriously the backseat balance whiners in this thread stating things as fact like "you can't handle xyz, it's impossible to etc. etc." is just absurd, i know this is the designated balance whine thread but it's still embarrassing You're missing the point entirely. It's about banking money and switching tech. Zerg players don't just add Muta to their Muta cloud slowly over the course of the game. Usually it's attack with Roach/Hydra/Viper or Swarm Host or whatever, and then BAM 30 Mutas are out all at once. Yes Phoenixes deal with them well, but the Phoenixes can't be made reactively to such a Muta switch. So you'd need to have them in advance. In which case Zerg simply DOESNT make muta. Buffed Hydras / Swarm Hosts / Learning how to stop Protoss allins has allowed Zergs to be more economical and bank more minerals than they used to. Hence the tech switch is more effective. At the same time, 2 of the units that require the hardest counters (Hydra - Colossus, and Muta - Phoenixes) have received buffs so that you now absolutely NEED their hard counter to beat any decent number of them. That's why in my view PvZ has gotten harder. EDIT - which is why you see either 2 base allins or Protoss trying to take a super greedy 3rd base with an Oracle/Void Ray in order to keep up with the Zerg.I used to love macro PvZ but now I man train every game so much fun roflstomping Masters players with it and getting called a noob. Why is this greedy? I don't see what would straight up counter this. The Oracle forces spores and gives scouting, the VR makes you safe against fast roach-play. Ling play is countered by a walled-in canon. A Zerg may be able to cancel or kill the third at that point, but doing so he will usually come out behind because it's done of 30-40drones vs 50probes, SG up and more tech behind. If I have to be completely honest (and add a little unreasonable rage ), I think this discussion is led by the same type of diamond Protoss players I face on the ladder, who go robo-no-matter-what and then call mutalisks overpowered. I mean, I'm facing more double robo after third builds than Stargate/Robo builds from diamonds and masters. Of course you die to mutalisks. It's not a viable build order. Haha Well, it's greedy because if the Zerg scouts it there are a few Roach/Hydra timings that can punish it pretty hard the Protoss has SOME tech, but no splash damage (which is key for fighting masses of Hydras). I've seen many pro Protoss players lose their third to such a push and then straight up die to a follow-up. Of course if you go double Robo you can lose to Spire, I mean that's the point! But that's just bad play by the Protoss. The strength of Muta is not just "make muta, win" but rather tech switch INTO muta after a big battle that resets army count a bit. Then all of a sudden Protoss needs a totally different kind of army to defend with and the Mutas fly around killing econ. I don't dislike this dynamic though. It's a little extreme at times in PvZ, but it makes sense that if I hold a push, I get an advantage and can counter and my opponent will have a hard time. It's a nice back-and-forth dynamic where both sides get to have initiative and fun. I think roach/hydra hits way too late to punish thae types of thirds. Hydra/ling is a bitch though, but I don't think itbis more powerful than a variety of Protoss attacks. Its not necessarily a case of "holding a push" though, you can't think of it purely as being a defender. Many times its the result of the Zerg being the aggressor, being held off but still doing damage to the opposing army and then following it up with a remax that cannot be properly responded to in time resulting in massive damage.
If the Zerg is being the agressor, that means they are losing units and have to replace them. So where the hell are they getting the resources to re max into muta? Unless it's 25-30 into the game and the Zerg is sitting on a huge bank it's not an instant remax, it's more them shifting resources to different units and There is always a sign and it's manageable if you are alert. If the Zerg is attacking with roach/hydra and all a sudden reinforcements change to zerglings or stop coming in and you don't ask yourself "where is all the gas going?" You have no business complaining when mutalisks swoop in and kill all your probes.
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On October 17 2014 04:51 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now. For some reason this sounds more like you are personally having trouble against zerg and are venting your frustration here. Protoss have won huge amounts of tournaments compared to the ones zerg have won. This pretty much shows that protoss is not totally helpless in the top level. Also stats about the top-50 players show that the MU is quite balanced and maybe even favours protoss at the top level.
Or it sounds like mutas are obviously imbalanced unless Blizzard simply says stuff based off personal experience, too. You can make turrets, widow mines, marines, thors, etc to counter mutas. Zerg even got their spores specially modified to shutdown mutas. I get 1 lousy unit that can't take on corruptors, thus can't take on mutas? Wtf is that?
Nerf mutas or give me some realistic counters and I'll be alright. If some people like phoenixes good for them. I'd like to see more different kinds of games play out, than seeing, you know, Blizzard force your hand every game, so everything can look the same. Personally, just give me a vessel or at least increase their cost. This is ridiculous. Everyone cherry picking players (who probably 2 base all-in) when you're looking at 44% and can't even express a hint of SOMETHING might be imbalanced, needs to just quit. You're obviously too biased/ignorant or w/e have you.
I think P vs T is Toss favored and it's at 49%. Show some decency/common sense, jesus.
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On October 17 2014 05:04 bo1b wrote:
Is zerg suddenly op now? I don't understand.
Blizzcon proves it, way more Zerg players this year than last year, you can't deny that...^^
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On October 17 2014 04:40 playa wrote:
After seeing embarrassing numbers like this and knowing Blizzard won't say anything, I'll be waiting for Blizzcon. I know they're probably going to come up with something that "sounds super cool/far out" that will end up getting scrapped due to them being more interested in putting on a show. So, after Blizzcon, though, and they realize they kinda suck at coming up with new units (like the swarm host), I hope they give Protoss a unit with the same abilities as the science vessel in BW.
Give me the vessel. Could make it cost 700-700 and be 10 supply. It would still beat ever making phoenixes in that matchup. It would also be cool if they came up with a new static D structure that was strictly anti air, so I could have something else that wasn't completely worthless versus mutas. Or, they could give Oracles health regeneration and cost 100/100 and be able to kill armies and own all workers. Man, that would be cool. No, that would be stupid, just like this matchup is now.
It sounds like you just need to practice your PvZ. The matchup is not that broken. 45% win rates at the professional level are one thing when we're in a thread discussing balance, but calling the game unwinable or retarded when you're just someone playing at home is straight up silly. There are a billion things you could do better before the balance of the game becomes relevant to you.
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EPT
