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On October 16 2014 23:58 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 23:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 16 2014 23:44 Grumbels wrote:
Out of curiosity, suppose that Blizzard does a "state of SC2 balance" panel at Blizzcon with a Q&A, what questions should Blizzard be asked and what do you think their message will be? Depends on the specificit of the question. Remember that they will always say "look at ladder, balanced" I guess I should rephrase it and instead of asking what questions should be asked I might instead enquire as to what questions people in this thread would like to see answered.
What is the tactical direction they intend mech to philosophically embody outside of unit composition or production source?
What tactical midgame interaction do they wish to push in PvZ as much as they have pushed marine/banling interactions in TvZ
Do they plan in ever making battle cruisers and carriers as relevant a unit as ultralisl a and brood lords?
At what time stamps do they consider important benchmarks to aim for when designing midgame and late game tech transitions in relation to upgrade timings, upgrade overlaps, and upgrade availability for each matchup.
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Playa, I think you exaggerate, they're relatively shit against Protoss until you get to 25+ of them, and the Protoss core is relatively well competitive against them. Terran is even more competitive against them (I love when marines shit on muta). If they were more expensive than 100/100, they would be utterly useless.
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On October 17 2014 00:04 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 23:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 16 2014 23:49 playa wrote:On October 16 2014 23:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:
The main problem with PvZ is that there is not interesting design interaction other than Phoenix vs hydra/Queen.
None of the other opening have interesting micro or design play that makes it sexy to watch. Phoenix play is the only time where we see constant Aggression, zoning, harass, etc... The rest feel like all-ins or timing attacks.
In BW, the stilted unit movement and limited controls made PvZ this dance about who could circumvent each other's Marlee units the most effectively. But both zealots and zerglings melt in any midsized fight in SC2 so all we have is blink stalkers + tech units vs roaches + tech units and it's kind of brutish.
The only time the game reaches a point where it's not globs of units smacking each other is when you get to late game Swarm Host/Broodlord play where Protoss becomes a very agile force doing multi-prong attacks.
If there was a way to bring that dynamic to the PvZ midgame it would fantastic, but I don't know how that is possible with unit redesign. Simply the excitement of seeing scourges versus shuttles is greater than anything in P vs Z, if not SC 2... I didn't play P vs Z in BW, but corsairs were better than phoenix vs mutas. You had maelstrom which allowed your ground units to fight them. Storm did serious damage, and there was no get out of jail card with insta regeneration. Cannons seemed far better (maybe it's due to no one making a million mutas in BW). In SC 2, it's just pathetic what Toss has versus mutas. Your backbone unit can't even trade vs a harassment unit. It's just comical. If Zerg adds in any corruptors, you're expected to get a fleet beacon (300 minerals, 200 gas), then get a 150/150 upgrade and then make a lot of 150/100 phoenix off 3 bases, while the Zerg takes the map, making it a moot point if the mutas get killed. Since Blizzard can't be stupid/blind, and they have said nothing about this, one can only assume it's because they're addressing it in LotV and, well, I guess you lose hype/reason to buy if you have already solved the problem before expansion... Muta flocks were smaller in BW (11-12) as opposed to the 10-30 in SC2. Its not that anti-muta tech was better, its that there were less mutas to deal with. While muta flocks were definitely smaller, mutas are way better in relation, that aside. Speed buffs plus regeneration? I want the science vessel or at least its abilities. And, even then, mutas are still scary to think about. I wish you could change prices on some units and have it be mu specific. Until they give Toss better options, there is no way in hell that the muta should only be 100/100. The muta used to be a harassment unit, now it's the do-everything unit. Oracles cost 150/150. I can't make an oracle army. DTs are 125/125. I can't make a DT army. I get that you could harass with just one of these units, where as 1 muta would be weak, but my god, 100/100? The corruptor is more expensive...
I was not talking about balance, just perception.
Cannons are better than they were in BW, but unit clump and unit select overpowers them too easily.
Phoenix are amazing vs Mutas, much better than corsairs except for the whole can't kill them fast enough problem once you reach 20-30 mutas. But just try having 10 murals fight 8-10 Phoenix's and you'll see how good Phoenix's are.
Mutas are also individually better, but that's not the reason they are better in SC2 than BW.
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On October 17 2014 00:07 TokO wrote:
Playa, I think you exaggerate, they're relatively shit against Protoss until you get to 25+ of them, and the Protoss core is relatively well competitive against them. Terran is even more competitive against them (I love when marines shit on muta). If they were more expensive than 100/100, they would be utterly useless.
You don't get 44% in any matchup without something being seriously off. If it's not mutas, what it is it? Players don't use swarm hosts that much. And on a lot of maps, swarm hosts should be beat. Is it the inability to know what Zerg is going to make, making it a guessing game? That could be part of it. These numbers are embarrassing. Blizzard used to always go on about T vs P numbers and how Terran was weak in the late game, etc, etc. How are these numbers in P vs Z any different? Complete blackout, though. It's like no one wants to talk about the matchup due to a fear of having to talk about how horrible swarm hosts have been for the game. I can't understand it, any other way, because this matchup is not in good shape.
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On October 17 2014 00:07 TokO wrote:
Playa, I think you exaggerate, they're relatively shit against Protoss until you get to 25+ of them, and the Protoss core is relatively well competitive against them. Terran is even more competitive against them (I love when marines shit on muta). If they were more expensive than 100/100, they would be utterly useless.
The problem with Muta is that you never actually get to fight them unless you're going full on Phoenixes. At which point the Zerg can switch into something else and you're stuck with a bunch of useless Phoenixes and/OR a ruined economy.
Muta are not a huge issue, but when you combine it with all the other Zerg units that require a VERY specific counter from Protoss it becomes difficult to deal with. If you notice how most PvZ are won - according to the statistics posted earlier - it's with allin timings. Timings that kill the Zerg before they get to the remax on a different tech part of the game.
EDIT - Swarm Hosts even if they don't kill the Protoss buy the Zerg a LOT of time.. time where they're banking minerals they can use to tech switch.
Hydra buff has also made Hydras very strong against everything but Colossus. So Protoss is kind of forced into Colo vs. Zerg or you "die to Hydras" the same way you die to bio vs. Terran if you don't make splash.
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I think the reason PvZ win rates are down, similarly to PvT, is that in both these matchups Protoss is essentially forced into Colossus. Hydra damage buff has made a few strategies borderline unplayable (Blink play in particular I've seen get shut down HARD by Hydras, whereas it could work before).
The Zerg gets to Lair with their econ intact, they can drop either a Spire or a Hydra den... minimal investment. But to counter that choice of tech the Protoss has to invest substantially more econ. If he guesses/scouts wrong he dies outright.
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I looked back on AntiRW's post, it seems PvZ between code S players is about 50% since patch, slight advantage for protoss, the MU really hasn't been changed much, from the games I watched I didn't see any problem with opening stargate (Zest vs Life, Zest vs soO), phoenix are never really completely useless.
PvT seems to be in a much worst state among code S players.
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Guys we reached a state of "fair discussion" in this thread, refrain from using hyperboles and sarcasm, just say what you meant objectively...
Saying that "mines make zealots useless" or "toss have no answer to mutas" is obviously wrong so don't even start, starting with an absurd offer to get a good bargain is cheap and prolongs the debate with pointless discussion.
Now regarding the actual discussion:
Thats just how ZvP works, its all about army composition. Protoss have VERY specific counters, that hard counter the zerg units and force a transition.
Zerg ends with either Roach hydra viper, SH based compositions or muta corruptor if the game does get to the late game. If Z or P is slow in tech transitions its usually game ending or results in taking big damage. I don't think mutas are too strong, but it does force a strong reaction, and thats is the reason why stargate openings are so popular, usually a protoss not opening stargate plans to end the game before the late game.
edit: yeah, if any unit is too strong in PvZ i put my money on hydras.
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I think the margins of error have certainly become lower for Protoss, but it's still manageable. PvZ is fun for me, because I can always identify my mistakes, there's always a better transition to make, better scouting, etc. And there is still scope for for Stalker-Sentry-Immortal, even against hydralisks. This is so much more fun than the days of infestors. If you didn't have the perfect composition, a bunch of infestors would take a massive dump on your third base. If you didn't have a third base, they would take a massive dump on your natural, and you wouldn't have dps to kill the infested terrans. And that's when we didn't have hallucination, unless we upgraded it. We don't have a lot to complain about in PvZ to be honest.
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This PvZ Muta Op discussion ( brought up by one single person ) is really really not understandable for me, as a random player and mostly E-Sport watcher:
Mutas in PvZ are not used that common and thats because phonex hardcounter them very well. Who says Phoenix are usless, does not understand his race.
First of all Star Gate openings are very solid openings in PvZ after the expand: Phoenix will give you constant pressure, constant scout infos and constant eco dmg ( drones and ovies ) while you deny zergs scout options at all. Immortal sentry Mcore is a strong combo to protect you against Hyun styled Roachmadness, but when you go 3 base roach madness, you do not have the minerals, gas and larva to show up 25+ mutas out of the blue. This is just not possible and not happening in an match between even players. And protoss has his option to use his sentrys to scout every 2 minutes for a spire it is not that hard. Drop a additional star gate when you see the spire and you can get your phoenix in time.
We mostly see the muta transition after a longer Swarm Host based Statlement, but protoss should become Skytoss in this scenario anyway or at least semyskytoss with 2 or 3 star gates for the tempests. From tempest it isn't a long way to +2 range phoenix who destroy mutas so freaking fast. Protoss has to think: Is my enemy able to have a spire and possibly banked up 2,5k/2,5k ? Then you did a mistake if it is not a swarm host game and if it is a swarm host game, you should be prepared for SH/Muta or pure Muta transition.
I think the low P Winrate against Zerg comes form the swarm hosts, not because they are op, but because players, mostly korean protoss ( but shure also foreigners ) are not used to have that patience to deal with em. When a SnuteStyle Swarmhost game develops you must accept a decent time for the game, maybe 60+ Blizzard minutes. But most Protoss dont do this, i saw so many good ( and even better protoss ) throw their games into nothing, because they could not wait any longer, because they were impatiend.
And most Balance Problems with Protoss come from the bad design that protoss has: it is like blizzard designed terran and zerg first and then thought: okay, we got this and these and that for zerg and terran, lets hardcounter everything with a protoss unit, but make them usless against any other unit they do not hardcounter.
For me Protoss is the worst race to balance, because its design is just bad and will allways lead to problems.
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On October 17 2014 00:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 23:58 Grumbels wrote:On October 16 2014 23:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 16 2014 23:44 Grumbels wrote:
Out of curiosity, suppose that Blizzard does a "state of SC2 balance" panel at Blizzcon with a Q&A, what questions should Blizzard be asked and what do you think their message will be? Depends on the specificit of the question. Remember that they will always say "look at ladder, balanced" I guess I should rephrase it and instead of asking what questions should be asked I might instead enquire as to what questions people in this thread would like to see answered. Do they plan in ever making battle cruisers and carriers as relevant a unit as ultralisl a and brood lords? Wow.
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On October 17 2014 00:26 sibs wrote:
I looked back on AntiRW's post, it seems PvZ between code S players is about 50% since patch, slight advantage for protoss, the MU really hasn't been changed much, from the games I watched I didn't see any problem with opening stargate (Zest vs Life, Zest vs soO), phoenix are never really completely useless.
PvT seems to be in a much worst state among code S players.
This. At the highest level the winrates point towards balance or even a Protoss advantage.
Even if there is a problem, at least give some decent analysis why builds like Zest's Stargate/3rd/Collossus or herO's 1gate/3rd/twlight have suddenly become insufficient against mutalisks.
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Regarding ZvP something interesting Naniwa mentioned during his DH stream (soO vs Classic game 2 I think) was that the biggest difference between Protoss like him and protoss like Zest, Rain, and Classic is their ability to scout.
Top KR protoss know zerg timings very well and can almost always get good scouts with just a few hallucinations.
So they aoften know exactly how to react to whatever zerg is doing and because they send them out every 2 ish min or so they get a decent amount of time to set up their defense.
Obviously that's ridiculously hard to pull of, just think of paying attention to what your hallu is scouting while macroing properly and microing units vs zerg, but it's certainly doable.
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On October 16 2014 19:59 TokO wrote:
Did anyone else perceive PvT to be particularily imbalanced in WoL? I felt that it was really balanced back then, towards the end.
I'd argue its extremely hard to tell whether or not it was because there was a relative lack of critical focus on the match up. The focus was on the fact that Zerg was destroying everybody with Infestor/Broodlord. Protoss had been trying everything under the sun to deal with it and found the solutions to be either kill them before that or Archon Toilet and Terran similarly had been frantically trying to tailor compositions to deal with it, having no "big wipe" like Archon Toilet to clear it. Smaller imbalances were relatively unimportant compared to that.
As for this Mutalisk discussion...I'd say that the issue with Mutas is more the fact that virtually the only counter now is Phoenix. You can't really Blink Stalker and chip away at them because they'll just run away to somewhere you can't chase and heal. Ditto for storm defence. Ditto for cannons. You need Phoenix (or I guess Carrier or Tempest maybe but good luck getting them up to deal with mutas). And don't get me wrong, the Phoenix is a decently solid unit and does very well in this role...but under virtually no other circumstances do you want a big flock of Phoenix because you'll just die to mass ground units.
So its a one-dimensional interaction. But the Zerg unit in this interaction is also a significantly more flexible unit than the Protoss unit in this interaction. Which is incredibly irritating and makes things kinda wonky.
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On October 17 2014 01:28 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 19:59 TokO wrote:
Did anyone else perceive PvT to be particularily imbalanced in WoL? I felt that it was really balanced back then, towards the end. I'd argue its extremely hard to tell whether or not it was because there was a relative lack of critical focus on the match up. The focus was on the fact that Zerg was destroying everybody with Infestor/Broodlord. Protoss had been trying everything under the sun to deal with it and found the solutions to be either kill them before that or Archon Toilet and Terran similarly had been frantically trying to tailor compositions to deal with it, having no "big wipe" like Archon Toilet to clear it. Smaller imbalances were relatively unimportant compared to that. As for this Mutalisk discussion...I'd say that the issue with Mutas is more the fact that virtually the only counter now is Phoenix. You can't really Blink Stalker and chip away at them because they'll just run away to somewhere you can't chase and heal. Ditto for storm defence. Ditto for cannons. You need Phoenix (or I guess Carrier or Tempest maybe but good luck getting them up to deal with mutas). And don't get me wrong, the Phoenix is a decently solid unit and does very well in this role...but under virtually no other circumstances do you want a big flock of Phoenix because you'll just die to mass ground units. So its a one-dimensional interaction. But the Zerg unit in this interaction is also a significantly more flexible unit than the Protoss unit in this interaction. Which is incredibly irritating and makes things kinda wonky.
This.
Sure Phoenixes are useful, but Zergs have learned that the best way to counter Phoenix openings is 80 drones => Swarm Host. So you don't really want to open Phoenix anymore (Oracle fast 3rd is way more common now) but Phoenixes are the only thing you can fight Muta with (or rather, prevent Muta from killing all your probes with).
Along with the Hydra buff I think that's the biggest cause of PvZ troubles right now. It's much easier for Zerg to punish a Protoss that guessed/scouted wrong or even just transitioned a bit too slowly.
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On October 17 2014 02:41 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 01:28 -Celestial- wrote:On October 16 2014 19:59 TokO wrote:
Did anyone else perceive PvT to be particularily imbalanced in WoL? I felt that it was really balanced back then, towards the end. I'd argue its extremely hard to tell whether or not it was because there was a relative lack of critical focus on the match up. The focus was on the fact that Zerg was destroying everybody with Infestor/Broodlord. Protoss had been trying everything under the sun to deal with it and found the solutions to be either kill them before that or Archon Toilet and Terran similarly had been frantically trying to tailor compositions to deal with it, having no "big wipe" like Archon Toilet to clear it. Smaller imbalances were relatively unimportant compared to that. As for this Mutalisk discussion...I'd say that the issue with Mutas is more the fact that virtually the only counter now is Phoenix. You can't really Blink Stalker and chip away at them because they'll just run away to somewhere you can't chase and heal. Ditto for storm defence. Ditto for cannons. You need Phoenix (or I guess Carrier or Tempest maybe but good luck getting them up to deal with mutas). And don't get me wrong, the Phoenix is a decently solid unit and does very well in this role...but under virtually no other circumstances do you want a big flock of Phoenix because you'll just die to mass ground units. So its a one-dimensional interaction. But the Zerg unit in this interaction is also a significantly more flexible unit than the Protoss unit in this interaction. Which is incredibly irritating and makes things kinda wonky. This. Sure Phoenixes are useful, but Zergs have learned that the best way to counter Phoenix openings is 80 drones => Swarm Host. So you don't really want to open Phoenix anymore (Oracle fast 3rd is way more common now) but Phoenixes are the only thing you can fight Muta with (or rather, prevent Muta from killing all your probes with). Along with the Hydra buff I think that's the biggest cause of PvZ troubles right now. It's much easier for Zerg to punish a Protoss that guessed/scouted wrong or even just transitioned a bit too slowly.
Yeah. If you're forced to turtle at all, Zerg takes enough expansions to freely tech switch to w/e they want to. Meanwhile, you're stuck with dead weight and a vastly inferior economy. Trying to counter mutas for Toss is akin to "living above your means" in spending. You can't properly prepare to deal with 20+ mutas before having a fourth without being susceptible to everything, and that means even being overrun by mutas/corruptors, still...
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protoss players are literally lying about it being impossible to fight mutas without phoenix. yes, if zerg KEEPS MAKING MASS MUTA you will need phoenix, duh, but i have seen so many games where top pro players handled mutas with a combination of blink stalkers, photon overcharge, archons, etc. while still taking bases and using SCOUTING to know how soon to tech to phoenix. it comes down to who plays better. if you make 10, 15, 20 mutas and your control is bad and protoss isn't COMPLETELY UNPREPARED with absolutely nothing in the mineral lines then you will get absolutely wrecked and likely die to a push soon. muta requires some of the highest level of army attention and micro of any unit in the entire game, it's 100% skill and multitasking
whining about mutas comes down to the classic problem of midleague players not thinking it's fair that they have to scout. you forgot to send out hallucinations so you die and blame it on it being "impossible to play like koreans" when all you had to do was actually focus on scouting as a part of your play... it's not just "make a base and defense it" lol
if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures, etc, so why should protoss be able to sit back with no scouting and be safe against muta switches from a zerg player with a strong economy and competent control?
seriously the backseat balance whiners in this thread stating things as fact like "you can't handle xyz, it's impossible to etc. etc." is just absurd, i know this is the designated balance whine thread but it's still embarrassing
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if zerg doesn't scout protoss we die 100% to a large number of allins, pressures
This is a good joke. Really, it's good. You're comparing an early game ovie flyby to check if it's a 2 base all-in or not, to trying to nonstop scout whether a tech switch is coming, trying to pay attention to the size of the enemy army and its composition, if the Zerg is making only a few Mutas for harass or mass muta, or if it's going to be a Hydra play right away? Terran pretty much use the same units in every matchup, while Zerg is the king of tech switches. For Protoss it's not nearly as simple...and by the way I'm not sure who you're calling midleague players, but everyone faces this challenge regardless of your level.
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On October 17 2014 02:41 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 01:28 -Celestial- wrote:On October 16 2014 19:59 TokO wrote:
Did anyone else perceive PvT to be particularily imbalanced in WoL? I felt that it was really balanced back then, towards the end. I'd argue its extremely hard to tell whether or not it was because there was a relative lack of critical focus on the match up. The focus was on the fact that Zerg was destroying everybody with Infestor/Broodlord. Protoss had been trying everything under the sun to deal with it and found the solutions to be either kill them before that or Archon Toilet and Terran similarly had been frantically trying to tailor compositions to deal with it, having no "big wipe" like Archon Toilet to clear it. Smaller imbalances were relatively unimportant compared to that. As for this Mutalisk discussion...I'd say that the issue with Mutas is more the fact that virtually the only counter now is Phoenix. You can't really Blink Stalker and chip away at them because they'll just run away to somewhere you can't chase and heal. Ditto for storm defence. Ditto for cannons. You need Phoenix (or I guess Carrier or Tempest maybe but good luck getting them up to deal with mutas). And don't get me wrong, the Phoenix is a decently solid unit and does very well in this role...but under virtually no other circumstances do you want a big flock of Phoenix because you'll just die to mass ground units. So its a one-dimensional interaction. But the Zerg unit in this interaction is also a significantly more flexible unit than the Protoss unit in this interaction. Which is incredibly irritating and makes things kinda wonky. This. Sure Phoenixes are useful, but Zergs have learned that the best way to counter Phoenix openings is 80 drones => Swarm Host. So you don't really want to open Phoenix anymore (Oracle fast 3rd is way more common now) but Phoenixes are the only thing you can fight Muta with (or rather, prevent Muta from killing all your probes with). Along with the Hydra buff I think that's the biggest cause of PvZ troubles right now. It's much easier for Zerg to punish a Protoss that guessed/scouted wrong or even just transitioned a bit too slowly.
For some maps you would love to see a zerg playing swarmhosts if you know how to react, but you have a point. Maybe thats the reason so many protoss are going for blink sentry play? But not really a balance problem, blink timings are very strong and swarmhosts are not reliable in all maps.
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In all my games i didnt 3 base allin blink i saw 1 thing.
Zerg economy is too strong.
You literally need to stay on equall bases to beat a zerg these days or have supreme micro+ out positioning.
The fact is the greedier a zerg can be (3 hatch before pool ex.) The bigger there bank will be when they decide what to do versus what protoss has during mid/lategame. Since the entire early game is non existant due to both parties knowing howto defend allins pretty easily.(and protoss forgeexpanding with fast 3rd or get behind) Scouting overlords are now being placed right infront of the protoss base with some lings scouting on the map and zergs would wrather take a quick fourth nowadays then be aggressive in there allin stance.
Mostly because when zerg is allowed to be greedy (and dont mistake me if a zerg has a 4th base before 10 min its greedy) All the good tech becomes available because youve saved somuch larvea. The problem is if the zerg was greedy by going 3 hatch before pool his econ skyrockets exacly when he takes a 4th so you have a VERY small chance to hit a timing to kill or punish it.
Also with ultras seeing more plays nowadays combined with muta there is no reall awnser from protoss since you need both mass phoenix + mass immortal + mass templar vs the speedlings.(protip phoenix are useless vs enmass queens/spores/hydras/ultras/infestor)
And the big issue here is he can take free bases when hes throwing units at you at all time making his bank rediculously high due to better creepspread/vision.
Mines on the other hand are just plain op.
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EPT
