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On October 17 2014 21:41 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 21:40 Meavis wrote:
lot's of mentions of mech TvZ, when mech in high level TvZ is pretty much dead thanks to SH/muta, when was the last time you saw mech work? Gumiho just won against Life 2-1 using mech.
CATTLEBRUISER OPERATIONAL!!!!!!!
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The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable.
If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix).
The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament).
EDIT-
On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken?
?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion.
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On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion.
2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg.
also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs.
the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc.
its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem.
i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see.
Well, adding 2 stargates is 300 gas, man. SG is 150/150, that's basically the problem. Then 200 + 150 for range upgrade. Hm... that's 650 gas in few seconds. And you say defend with archons, who are gas heavy? Seriously...
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On October 18 2014 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see. Well, adding 2 stargates is 300 gas, man. SG is 150/150, that's basically the problem. Then 200 + 150 for range upgrade. Hm... that's 650 gas in few seconds. And you say defend with archons, who are gas heavy? Seriously...
People talk about a 40 Muta-Transition and your counterargument is that 650 Gas is a lot?
I mean... it might be a lot, but if the Zerg has 4000 Gas available, 650 gas for the Protoss shouldn't be THAT big of a deal, right?
And yes, the Zerg has to save money quite a long in order to have such a transition available, putting down two Stargates during this time will most likely not kill you. Just don't forget that we're talking about a lategame scenario here.
Zerg can't just wait against a Airtoss/Skyterran as well and if he does... well... hes fucked most of the time. I think it's not that inappropriate that the Protoss has to react to something the Zerg is saving for for multiple minutes.
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On October 18 2014 01:01 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see. Well, adding 2 stargates is 300 gas, man. SG is 150/150, that's basically the problem. Then 200 + 150 for range upgrade. Hm... that's 650 gas in few seconds. And you say defend with archons, who are gas heavy? Seriously... People talk about a 40 Muta-Transition and your counterargument is that 650 Gas is a lot? I mean... it might be a lot, but if the Zerg has 4000 Gas available, 650 gas for the Protoss shouldn't be THAT big of a deal, right? And yes, the Zerg has to save money quite a long in order to have such a transition available, putting down two Stargates during this time will most likely not kill you. Just don't forget that we're talking about a lategame scenario here. Zerg can't just wait against a Airtoss/Skyterran as well and if he does... well... hes fucked most of the time. I think it's not that inappropriate that the Protoss has to react to something the Zerg is saving for for multiple minutes.
this + you will want to have 1 SG + fleet beacon at some point in the lategame anyway, be it for ranged phoenix, mothersip vs SH or tempets vs BLs or SHs.
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So I wanted to write something about open maps and checked the TLPD stats (which is of course much less games than aligulac, but it's as much of a random sample as aligulac just with greater variance):
Most of the maps are in Protoss favor. Like really, let's get through various balance signals:
race distribution on WCS/GSL level: no problem. Rather too many Protoss than too few in Korea.
Highest level/Premier league winrates: PvZ is around 50% everywhere; over 50% in all the stats antiRW posted on that topic
Challenger Leagues: 75-79% winrate for Protoss.
aligulac: OK, PvZ has been in Zergs favor for 2 periodes (so 1months if I get that right?); if we go earlier than that, for months we find winrates mostly between 48-51%.
TLPD map stats: every map except MGR and Overgrowth in the Hot Map section (and that is actually currently played - not like Heavy Rain, didn't check those) is at least slightly in Protoss favor.
Tournament wins: Protoss has many more this year. In the last few months, Zerg has a small advantage, but neither race is doing well currently.
I really don't see a big reason to discuss this matchup on the greater scale... Gameplay problems seem to be mainly subjectively experienced ones or just variance.
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On October 18 2014 01:01 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see. Well, adding 2 stargates is 300 gas, man. SG is 150/150, that's basically the problem. Then 200 + 150 for range upgrade. Hm... that's 650 gas in few seconds. And you say defend with archons, who are gas heavy? Seriously... People talk about a 40 Muta-Transition and your counterargument is that 650 Gas is a lot? I mean... it might be a lot, but if the Zerg has 4000 Gas available, 650 gas for the Protoss shouldn't be THAT big of a deal, right? And yes, the Zerg has to save money quite a long in order to have such a transition available, putting down two Stargates during this time will most likely not kill you. Just don't forget that we're talking about a lategame scenario here. Zerg can't just wait against a Airtoss/Skyterran as well and if he does... well... hes fucked most of the time. I think it's not that inappropriate that the Protoss has to react to something the Zerg is saving for for multiple minutes.
Protoss is the most gas-heavy race in the game. Then look at production time. Its not as easy as you're trying to make out.
Reactively getting Phoenixes is extremely awkward and rarely results in a positive outcome. The interaction between Phoenix and Mutalisk is extremely one-dimensional and, in short, is an irritating and poorly designed thing to play out.
Personally I squarely lay the blame on the regeneration.
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On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see.
Quick Hydras off 2 bases with a very delayed 3rd is a thing. I've seen it win games. It's quite effective against someone who went FFE into Phoenixes because it hits before Colossus are out.
I don't think you've ever played Protoss. "Defending with Stalker/Archon" Just doesn't work against any sizeable number of Mutas. Keep in mind I'm not talking about 10 Muta I'm talking 20+. They fly around killing everything where you are not (Pylons, tech, probes, etc.). Even with Blink the best you can get is 1 good Blink under that does a little damage (which is regenerated). You absolutely NEED Phoenixes in high numbers to deal with a Muta flock like that.
Resources are not the issue here. If Protoss and Zerg both have a bank the Zerg can still tech switch faster than the Protoss can react to the unit that's being made. And with the Sarm Host style, it's easier than ever as Zerg to build a huge bank.
I don't think the matchup is completely imbalanced or anything.. but you have to look at the more recent results. Sure Protoss won a lot earlier in the year but since then there have been a lot of changes to the game. The Hydra buff I think has had a much more pronounced effect than people thought it would. I used to see Blink allins work a lot more pre-buff. 10% fire rate buff is basically 10%DPS boost (which is 1 free weapons upgrade, essentially).
So Protoss is struggling a bit vs. Zerg. I think it's manageable and if it isn't Blizzard can patch something after Season 1 of WCS.
Personally I'd rather nothing gets changed for a while until we have a better idea of what each race's capabilities are... even if that means Terran will continue to win everything.
Maybe then they'll get off our backs about imbalance 
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On October 18 2014 01:32 Big J wrote:
So I wanted to write something about open maps and checked the TLPD stats (which is of course much less games than aligulac, but it's as much of a random sample as aligulac just with greater variance):
Most of the maps are in Protoss favor. Like really, let's get through various balance signals:
race distribution on WCS/GSL level: no problem. Rather too many Protoss than too few in Korea.
Highest level/Premier league winrates: PvZ is around 50% everywhere; over 50% in all the stats antiRW posted on that topic
Challenger Leagues: 75-79% winrate for Protoss.
aligulac: OK, PvZ has been in Zergs favor for 2 periodes (so 1months if I get that right?); if we go earlier than that, for months we find winrates mostly between 48-51%.
TLPD map stats: every map except MGR and Overgrowth in the Hot Map section (and that is actually currently played - not like Heavy Rain, didn't check those) is at least slightly in Protoss favor.
Tournament wins: Protoss has many more this year. In the last few months, Zerg has a small advantage, but neither race is doing well currently.
I really don't see a big reason to discuss this matchup on the greater scale... Gameplay problems seem to be mainly subjectively experienced ones or just variance.
My problem with the matchup is it has a non-sexy midgame outside of prism harass and zealot runby (and those look too much like slower ling runbys.
I'm pretty sure that 90% of complaints stem from a feeling of passiveness during this midsection of the game wherein both players feel any amount of pressure is too all-in.
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On October 18 2014 01:52 -Celestial- wrote:
Personally I squarely lay the blame on the regeneration.
I agree. Stalkers/Archons were useful when just damaging the Muta was enough. Now you have to guarantee a kill or they heal back to full health - and the only unit that can do that is a Phoenix for Protoss. Mutas are just too fast otherwise.
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On October 18 2014 02:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see. Quick Hydras off 2 bases with a very delayed 3rd is a thing. I've seen it win games. It's quite effective against someone who went FFE into Phoenixes because it hits before Colossus are out. I don't think you've ever played Protoss. "Defending with Stalker/Archon" Just doesn't work against any sizeable number of Mutas. Keep in mind I'm not talking about 10 Muta I'm talking 20+. They fly around killing everything where you are not (Pylons, tech, probes, etc.). Even with Blink the best you can get is 1 good Blink under that does a little damage (which is regenerated). You absolutely NEED Phoenixes in high numbers to deal with a Muta flock like that. Resources are not the issue here. If Protoss and Zerg both have a bank the Zerg can still tech switch faster than the Protoss can react to the unit that's being made. And with the Sarm Host style, it's easier than ever as Zerg to build a huge bank. I don't think the matchup is completely imbalanced or anything.. but you have to look at the more recent results. Sure Protoss won a lot earlier in the year but since then there have been a lot of changes to the game. The Hydra buff I think has had a much more pronounced effect than people thought it would. I used to see Blink allins work a lot more pre-buff. 10% fire rate buff is basically 10%DPS boost (which is 1 free weapons upgrade, essentially). So Protoss is struggling a bit vs. Zerg. I think it's manageable and if it isn't Blizzard can patch something after Season 1 of WCS. Personally I'd rather nothing gets changed for a while until we have a better idea of what each race's capabilities are... even if that means Terran will continue to win everything. Maybe then they'll get off our backs about imbalance
you wont go FFE into phoenix vs 2 base into superlate 3rd base...because you can just scout there i not 3rd base for a long time...
and for the stalker archon vs muta...that is just for a small period if you go 3 SG and range "blindly" and by blindly its if Z doesnt build anything for 3-4 minutes since that is the time needed to get those 20-30 mutas up you are talking about.
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On October 18 2014 02:15 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 02:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see. Quick Hydras off 2 bases with a very delayed 3rd is a thing. I've seen it win games. It's quite effective against someone who went FFE into Phoenixes because it hits before Colossus are out. I don't think you've ever played Protoss. "Defending with Stalker/Archon" Just doesn't work against any sizeable number of Mutas. Keep in mind I'm not talking about 10 Muta I'm talking 20+. They fly around killing everything where you are not (Pylons, tech, probes, etc.). Even with Blink the best you can get is 1 good Blink under that does a little damage (which is regenerated). You absolutely NEED Phoenixes in high numbers to deal with a Muta flock like that. Resources are not the issue here. If Protoss and Zerg both have a bank the Zerg can still tech switch faster than the Protoss can react to the unit that's being made. And with the Sarm Host style, it's easier than ever as Zerg to build a huge bank. I don't think the matchup is completely imbalanced or anything.. but you have to look at the more recent results. Sure Protoss won a lot earlier in the year but since then there have been a lot of changes to the game. The Hydra buff I think has had a much more pronounced effect than people thought it would. I used to see Blink allins work a lot more pre-buff. 10% fire rate buff is basically 10%DPS boost (which is 1 free weapons upgrade, essentially). So Protoss is struggling a bit vs. Zerg. I think it's manageable and if it isn't Blizzard can patch something after Season 1 of WCS. Personally I'd rather nothing gets changed for a while until we have a better idea of what each race's capabilities are... even if that means Terran will continue to win everything. Maybe then they'll get off our backs about imbalance you wont go FFE into phoenix vs 2 base into superlate 3rd base...because you can just scout there i not 3rd base for a long time... and for the stalker archon vs muta...that is just for a small period if you go 3 SG and range "blindly" and by blindly its if Z doesnt build anything for 3-4 minutes since that is the time needed to get those 20-30 mutas up you are talking about.
You're not getting it.
Nobody here is talking about going straight into Muta. We're talking about delayed Muta switches. Where you're battling Swarm Hosts and then all of a sudden a flock of 20-30 Muta show up. The infrastructure requirement/time to build is just very difficult to deal with. Stalkers/Archons are completely useless in that scenario. There are enough pro games and amateur games at every level to show this.
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On October 18 2014 02:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 02:15 Decendos wrote:On October 18 2014 02:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see. Quick Hydras off 2 bases with a very delayed 3rd is a thing. I've seen it win games. It's quite effective against someone who went FFE into Phoenixes because it hits before Colossus are out. I don't think you've ever played Protoss. "Defending with Stalker/Archon" Just doesn't work against any sizeable number of Mutas. Keep in mind I'm not talking about 10 Muta I'm talking 20+. They fly around killing everything where you are not (Pylons, tech, probes, etc.). Even with Blink the best you can get is 1 good Blink under that does a little damage (which is regenerated). You absolutely NEED Phoenixes in high numbers to deal with a Muta flock like that. Resources are not the issue here. If Protoss and Zerg both have a bank the Zerg can still tech switch faster than the Protoss can react to the unit that's being made. And with the Sarm Host style, it's easier than ever as Zerg to build a huge bank. I don't think the matchup is completely imbalanced or anything.. but you have to look at the more recent results. Sure Protoss won a lot earlier in the year but since then there have been a lot of changes to the game. The Hydra buff I think has had a much more pronounced effect than people thought it would. I used to see Blink allins work a lot more pre-buff. 10% fire rate buff is basically 10%DPS boost (which is 1 free weapons upgrade, essentially). So Protoss is struggling a bit vs. Zerg. I think it's manageable and if it isn't Blizzard can patch something after Season 1 of WCS. Personally I'd rather nothing gets changed for a while until we have a better idea of what each race's capabilities are... even if that means Terran will continue to win everything. Maybe then they'll get off our backs about imbalance you wont go FFE into phoenix vs 2 base into superlate 3rd base...because you can just scout there i not 3rd base for a long time... and for the stalker archon vs muta...that is just for a small period if you go 3 SG and range "blindly" and by blindly its if Z doesnt build anything for 3-4 minutes since that is the time needed to get those 20-30 mutas up you are talking about. You're not getting it. Nobody here is talking about going straight into Muta. We're talking about delayed Muta switches. Where you're battling Swarm Hosts and then all of a sudden a flock of 20-30 Muta show up. The infrastructure requirement/time to build is just very difficult to deal with. Stalkers/Archons are completely useless in that scenario. There are enough pro games and amateur games at every level to show this.
at least you finally accept 2 base hydra is easy scoutable.
where have i once said straight up mutas?
how are stalker archon useless? its not like you go colossus only vs SHs....like 5-6 colossus kill all locusts the rest goes intos stuff like archons, stalker, HT and some tempest. its not like that stuff is bad vs mutas and gives you enough time. and yes there are games that obv end with a huge mutaswitch. that is zergs way of closing out games in which they are way ahead. try doing that switch in a 5 base vs 4 base situation where both have almost equal amounts of money. it wont work that well and if you dont overrun the P you lost the game since mutas suck in straight up fights with archons and storm involved.
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On October 18 2014 02:26 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 02:21 DinoMight wrote:On October 18 2014 02:15 Decendos wrote:On October 18 2014 02:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see. Quick Hydras off 2 bases with a very delayed 3rd is a thing. I've seen it win games. It's quite effective against someone who went FFE into Phoenixes because it hits before Colossus are out. I don't think you've ever played Protoss. "Defending with Stalker/Archon" Just doesn't work against any sizeable number of Mutas. Keep in mind I'm not talking about 10 Muta I'm talking 20+. They fly around killing everything where you are not (Pylons, tech, probes, etc.). Even with Blink the best you can get is 1 good Blink under that does a little damage (which is regenerated). You absolutely NEED Phoenixes in high numbers to deal with a Muta flock like that. Resources are not the issue here. If Protoss and Zerg both have a bank the Zerg can still tech switch faster than the Protoss can react to the unit that's being made. And with the Sarm Host style, it's easier than ever as Zerg to build a huge bank. I don't think the matchup is completely imbalanced or anything.. but you have to look at the more recent results. Sure Protoss won a lot earlier in the year but since then there have been a lot of changes to the game. The Hydra buff I think has had a much more pronounced effect than people thought it would. I used to see Blink allins work a lot more pre-buff. 10% fire rate buff is basically 10%DPS boost (which is 1 free weapons upgrade, essentially). So Protoss is struggling a bit vs. Zerg. I think it's manageable and if it isn't Blizzard can patch something after Season 1 of WCS. Personally I'd rather nothing gets changed for a while until we have a better idea of what each race's capabilities are... even if that means Terran will continue to win everything. Maybe then they'll get off our backs about imbalance you wont go FFE into phoenix vs 2 base into superlate 3rd base...because you can just scout there i not 3rd base for a long time... and for the stalker archon vs muta...that is just for a small period if you go 3 SG and range "blindly" and by blindly its if Z doesnt build anything for 3-4 minutes since that is the time needed to get those 20-30 mutas up you are talking about. You're not getting it. Nobody here is talking about going straight into Muta. We're talking about delayed Muta switches. Where you're battling Swarm Hosts and then all of a sudden a flock of 20-30 Muta show up. The infrastructure requirement/time to build is just very difficult to deal with. Stalkers/Archons are completely useless in that scenario. There are enough pro games and amateur games at every level to show this. at least you finally accept 2 base hydra is easy scoutable. where have i once said straight up mutas? how are stalker archon useless? its not like you go colossus only vs SHs....like 5-6 colossus kill all locusts the rest goes intos stuff like archons, stalker, HT and some tempest. its not like that stuff is bad vs mutas and gives you enough time. and yes there are games that obv end with a huge mutaswitch. that is zergs way of closing out games in which they are way ahead. try doing that switch in a 5 base vs 4 base situation where both have almost equal amounts of money. it wont work that well and if you dont overrun the P you lost the game since mutas suck in straight up fights with archons and storm involved.
It's scoutable but you can still die to it. If you're going FFE into Phoenix you're already committed before enough time passes that you know he's allinning you. So you need to scout the late 3rd, decide what he's going to do, and react really quickly (and depending on the map, micro really well). Hydra den will be down and Hydras being produced before Colossus den is even started in that case.
Stalker/Archon are useless because they're not fast enough to catch the Muta. So unless you can have Stalkers and Archons covering your 3 mineral lines and every single building you own, you're going to take losses. If you defend your mineral lines, you're going to lose pylons and production/tech buildings. If you move out to defend those you risk losing probes.
Like I said, you could get away with Stalker Archon before because damaging the Mutas was worth something. Now unless you KILL a Muta it will regenerate to full health pretty fast.
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On October 18 2014 02:46 DinoMight wrote:
Stalker/Archon are useless because they're not fast enough to catch the Muta. So unless you can have Stalkers and Archons covering your 3 mineral lines and every single building you own, you're going to take losses. If you defend your mineral lines, you're going to lose pylons and production/tech buildings. If you move out to defend those you risk losing probes.
Like I said, you could get away with Stalker Archon before because damaging the Mutas was worth something. Now unless you KILL a Muta it will regenerate to full health pretty fast.
Just in theory, why couldn't you push out as soon as the Zerg engages to free up supply, kill a base or two or three while the Mutas are in production, then recall back with MsC and use the time buffer to get your stargates operational? Even vs 25-30 mutas you can split stalker / archon across the common locations and use whatever pheonix you have coming out to support. Sure they'll do some damage while you're getting your pheonix count up (keep important tech structures by the nexus / mineral line(s) so you only have one important area to defend per base), but hopefully not as much as you did in your timing window.
I don't play or watch enough high level PvZ to say for sure but this seems like a decent response to me.
And I think it's mostly besides the point since every high level PvZ I do watch has the Protoss threatening aggression enough that Zerg never really has time to make such a bank. It's been a long time since I've seen a successful 25-30 muta sudden tech switch.
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On October 18 2014 02:46 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 02:26 Decendos wrote:On October 18 2014 02:21 DinoMight wrote:On October 18 2014 02:15 Decendos wrote:On October 18 2014 02:12 DinoMight wrote:On October 18 2014 00:32 Decendos wrote:On October 17 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote:The problem with this perceived notion of "Phoenix opener is good just do it every game" is that you cannot be that predictable. Best example of this is Rain. He was untouchable forever... then people realized that he plays very conservatively and started taking advantage of him. If you watch Rain play now he mixes it up a lot more often than he used to. This is true for all races but more so for Protoss, I feel. Terran CAN go bio vs all 3 races and there's no real "hard counter." But Protoss is much easier to hard counter. So by nature they need a wider range of builds to be viable. If your opponent knows FFE into Phoenix is coming, they can go for fast Hydra off 2 bases and straight up murder you. Or just add a couple of spores and drone to their heart's desire (like Snute does vs. Phoenix). The other thing is that even if you HAVE a Stargate, you can't just warp in 10 Phoenixes magically. If you want to have any chance of stopping a mass Muta transition, you have to already know it's coming and already have several Stargates cranking out Phoenixes (the way Dear did vs. Jaedong that one time I dont remember the tournament). EDIT- On October 17 2014 23:53 sTYleZerG-eX wrote:
Blink all ins to broken? ?? No. They've been nerfed to oblivion. 2 base hydra? now you are getting funny. not that a single probe scout confirms no 3rd base which basically means you wont go phoenix vs 2 base zerg. also you cant warp in 10 phoenixes...and there is no need to. defending with stalker cannon archon until phoenix are out is absolutely no problem. and adding 2 SGs is 200 gas in the lategame...we will have to see if P starts adding this kind of "just in case" SGs. the main problem the game has are hardcounters imo. vs mutas you need phoenix at some point, vs colossus you need vipers or some other kind of air unit etc. its imo T which is the best designed race since there even the hardcounters of P and Z can be made into softcounters like marine splitting vs banes, marine splitting and medivacs vs fungal, magic boxing vs thors, ling bane splitting vs mines etc.. in PvZ...well hf microing your roaches vs immortal sentry...its more of forcing sentry energy wasted etc. but not that much you can do. same for ultras vs most P units...you have to build the hardcounter or will have a problem. i just hope they kind of fix the hardcounter concept in LotV for P and Z. would be really nice to see. Quick Hydras off 2 bases with a very delayed 3rd is a thing. I've seen it win games. It's quite effective against someone who went FFE into Phoenixes because it hits before Colossus are out. I don't think you've ever played Protoss. "Defending with Stalker/Archon" Just doesn't work against any sizeable number of Mutas. Keep in mind I'm not talking about 10 Muta I'm talking 20+. They fly around killing everything where you are not (Pylons, tech, probes, etc.). Even with Blink the best you can get is 1 good Blink under that does a little damage (which is regenerated). You absolutely NEED Phoenixes in high numbers to deal with a Muta flock like that. Resources are not the issue here. If Protoss and Zerg both have a bank the Zerg can still tech switch faster than the Protoss can react to the unit that's being made. And with the Sarm Host style, it's easier than ever as Zerg to build a huge bank. I don't think the matchup is completely imbalanced or anything.. but you have to look at the more recent results. Sure Protoss won a lot earlier in the year but since then there have been a lot of changes to the game. The Hydra buff I think has had a much more pronounced effect than people thought it would. I used to see Blink allins work a lot more pre-buff. 10% fire rate buff is basically 10%DPS boost (which is 1 free weapons upgrade, essentially). So Protoss is struggling a bit vs. Zerg. I think it's manageable and if it isn't Blizzard can patch something after Season 1 of WCS. Personally I'd rather nothing gets changed for a while until we have a better idea of what each race's capabilities are... even if that means Terran will continue to win everything. Maybe then they'll get off our backs about imbalance you wont go FFE into phoenix vs 2 base into superlate 3rd base...because you can just scout there i not 3rd base for a long time... and for the stalker archon vs muta...that is just for a small period if you go 3 SG and range "blindly" and by blindly its if Z doesnt build anything for 3-4 minutes since that is the time needed to get those 20-30 mutas up you are talking about. You're not getting it. Nobody here is talking about going straight into Muta. We're talking about delayed Muta switches. Where you're battling Swarm Hosts and then all of a sudden a flock of 20-30 Muta show up. The infrastructure requirement/time to build is just very difficult to deal with. Stalkers/Archons are completely useless in that scenario. There are enough pro games and amateur games at every level to show this. at least you finally accept 2 base hydra is easy scoutable. where have i once said straight up mutas? how are stalker archon useless? its not like you go colossus only vs SHs....like 5-6 colossus kill all locusts the rest goes intos stuff like archons, stalker, HT and some tempest. its not like that stuff is bad vs mutas and gives you enough time. and yes there are games that obv end with a huge mutaswitch. that is zergs way of closing out games in which they are way ahead. try doing that switch in a 5 base vs 4 base situation where both have almost equal amounts of money. it wont work that well and if you dont overrun the P you lost the game since mutas suck in straight up fights with archons and storm involved. It's scoutable but you can still die to it. If you're going FFE into Phoenix you're already committed before enough time passes that you know he's allinning you. So you need to scout the late 3rd, decide what he's going to do, and react really quickly (and depending on the map, micro really well). Hydra den will be down and Hydras being produced before Colossus den is even started in that case. Stalker/Archon are useless because they're not fast enough to catch the Muta. So unless you can have Stalkers and Archons covering your 3 mineral lines and every single building you own, you're going to take losses. If you defend your mineral lines, you're going to lose pylons and production/tech buildings. If you move out to defend those you risk losing probes. Like I said, you could get away with Stalker Archon before because damaging the Mutas was worth something. Now unless you KILL a Muta it will regenerate to full health pretty fast.
you wont even have a SG building by the time you scout him not having a 3rd base at like 4:15-4:30ish. not even close. vs 2 base zerg just go sentries, hallocination scout and go robo. whatever he goes you will be fine. i havent seen 2 base build vs FFE in such a long time on pro level since 2 base zerg is just plain out bad vs FFE.
and as for mineral line covering vs mutas...3-4 cannons + 1-2 archons and 1 HT will buy enough time to defend until you have like 10 phoenixes. and if he goes 30 mutas thats 60 supply = you will have an easy time defending the rest of his army. surprise muta switches are handled better and better by P players since the surprise effect isnt so big anymore.
oh and for you: i am not saying it is easy, its just not unbeatable like you make it sound.
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On October 18 2014 03:00 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 02:46 DinoMight wrote:
Stalker/Archon are useless because they're not fast enough to catch the Muta. So unless you can have Stalkers and Archons covering your 3 mineral lines and every single building you own, you're going to take losses. If you defend your mineral lines, you're going to lose pylons and production/tech buildings. If you move out to defend those you risk losing probes.
Like I said, you could get away with Stalker Archon before because damaging the Mutas was worth something. Now unless you KILL a Muta it will regenerate to full health pretty fast.
Just in theory, why couldn't you push out as soon as the Zerg engages to free up supply, kill a base or two or three while the Mutas are in production, then recall back with MsC and use the time buffer to get your stargates operational? Even vs 25-30 mutas you can split stalker / archon across the common locations and use whatever pheonix you have coming out to support. Sure they'll do some damage while you're getting your pheonix count up (keep important tech structures by the nexus / mineral line(s) so you only have one important area to defend per base), but hopefully not as much as you did in your timing window. I don't play or watch enough high level PvZ to say for sure but this seems like a decent response to me. And I think it's mostly besides the point since every high level PvZ I do watch has the Protoss threatening aggression enough that Zerg never really has time to make such a bank. It's been a long time since I've seen a successful 25-30 muta sudden tech switch.
Push out with what?
Muta remax typically comes right after a big fight that resets army for both players. Mutas build 20-30 at a time and finish much faster than anything Protoss can make. So what happens is Protoss starts rebuilding his army, 20-30 Muta show up and wreck his economy and by the time Protoss has enough units to fight the Muta, there are Ultras/Swarm Hosts/Brood Lords/Hydras/Vipers/whatever Zerg deems appropriate to end the game.
It's just a product of the Zerg larvae mechanic allowing fast remax into any tech and the Protoss hard counter mechanic where units have VERY specific roles in an army composition.
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On October 18 2014 03:13 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 03:00 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 18 2014 02:46 DinoMight wrote:
Stalker/Archon are useless because they're not fast enough to catch the Muta. So unless you can have Stalkers and Archons covering your 3 mineral lines and every single building you own, you're going to take losses. If you defend your mineral lines, you're going to lose pylons and production/tech buildings. If you move out to defend those you risk losing probes.
Like I said, you could get away with Stalker Archon before because damaging the Mutas was worth something. Now unless you KILL a Muta it will regenerate to full health pretty fast.
Just in theory, why couldn't you push out as soon as the Zerg engages to free up supply, kill a base or two or three while the Mutas are in production, then recall back with MsC and use the time buffer to get your stargates operational? Even vs 25-30 mutas you can split stalker / archon across the common locations and use whatever pheonix you have coming out to support. Sure they'll do some damage while you're getting your pheonix count up (keep important tech structures by the nexus / mineral line(s) so you only have one important area to defend per base), but hopefully not as much as you did in your timing window. I don't play or watch enough high level PvZ to say for sure but this seems like a decent response to me. And I think it's mostly besides the point since every high level PvZ I do watch has the Protoss threatening aggression enough that Zerg never really has time to make such a bank. It's been a long time since I've seen a successful 25-30 muta sudden tech switch. Push out with what? Muta remax typically comes right after a big fight that resets army for both players. Mutas build 20-30 at a time and finish much faster than anything Protoss can make. So what happens is Protoss starts rebuilding his army, 20-30 Muta show up and wreck his economy and by the time Protoss has enough units to fight the Muta, there are Ultras/Swarm Hosts/Brood Lords/Hydras/Vipers/whatever Zerg deems appropriate to end the game. It's just a product of the Zerg larvae mechanic allowing fast remax into any tech and the Protoss hard counter mechanic where units have VERY specific roles in an army composition.
True, a zerg that can trade even with a protoss late game army and have a big bank is a happy zerg. Still, if you scout a spire (specially if working upgrades) its a big tell that a muta switch might be coming, so you need those stargates up. It IS a good scenario for zerg, but it takes a lot of work to get there. If zerg does reach this scenario, protoss CAN hold with a good economy.
Now, if zerg can afford a strong ground composition after a muta switch, then its a really bad day. You probably played too passive and did few damage (or none at all) all game long.
edit: I agree that protoss cannot allow a zerg to have a monster economy for too long, but i think that protoss have plenty of harass and agreession tools.
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EPT
