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On September 13 2014 00:51 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2014 00:22 Svizcy wrote:On September 13 2014 00:17 Glorfindel! wrote:
Regarding the Terran vs Protoss-macro you are forgetting the cost of the units.
If a Protoss player is floating 1000 minerals, he can warp in 10 Zealots and the float is gone. Meanwhile a Terran player needs to produce 20 marines (10 baracks that has to have 10 SCVs building, with a reactor on each).
Stalkers costs a lot. Not to mention DTs, High Templars and other units that instantly can drain a mineral/gas-float.
Terran can never float those huge amounts of echo since they mostly do not have the ability to dump it into expensive units fast. Something making the Protoss macro a bit easier on this part then the Terran macro.
For an example if you see a terran pro like Flash floats 1000/1000, he is mostly playing really bad and is going to get killed somehow. A Zerg can float huge amounts of money due to the larva mechanic. A Zerg going up to 2000/2000 is not a sign of bad macro at all times, it may just be for a muta switch or similar. A Protoss player can keep it to see what to warp in. Terran do not have that option.
Example:
If you are in a fight and focus on your macro. Both players micro intense and reach 1000 minerals and 1000 gas.
Protoss can then warp in 10 High Templars, make 5 Archons and the minerals is gone. Terran on the other hand needs to have shitloads of production to spend this money and wont get his army instantly.
It is generally true that Protoss units costs a lot more than Terran units per unit. Therefore you need to produce way less units as a Protoss player, simplifying the macro aswell. It is for an example much easier as a mech player to spend your resourcers when you have 7 factories then for the bio player that has 14 barracks since you can spend much more in each production wave (Thors, Vikings and Tanks costs more than Marauders+Marines and Medivacs). Terran can que up one more cyle of units beffore major fight begins, while protoss has to stop microing for a second in the middle of battle and warp in units, othervise he will never be able to get them out in time cause he missed the warp in cyle, meaning less units few minutes later in game. See we can do this other way arround also? Well to que up units actually is never good if you can avoid it. Sure it makes money go away, but just to a place where it is actually not spend. If you have one barack with 5 marines for 250 minerals you aint macroing well. You are just keeping your minerals low. That aint the same thing.
Whether you have 2000 mins tied up in marines building during the fight - starting once you are dropping in supply - to have units ready after the fight or whether you float those minerals to then instantly warp-in units after the fight does not make a difference.
That being said, they should allow queuing when supply blocked to make this easier.
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On September 13 2014 01:05 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2014 00:22 Svizcy wrote:On September 13 2014 00:17 Glorfindel! wrote:
Regarding the Terran vs Protoss-macro you are forgetting the cost of the units.
If a Protoss player is floating 1000 minerals, he can warp in 10 Zealots and the float is gone. Meanwhile a Terran player needs to produce 20 marines (10 baracks that has to have 10 SCVs building, with a reactor on each).
Stalkers costs a lot. Not to mention DTs, High Templars and other units that instantly can drain a mineral/gas-float.
Terran can never float those huge amounts of echo since they mostly do not have the ability to dump it into expensive units fast. Something making the Protoss macro a bit easier on this part then the Terran macro.
For an example if you see a terran pro like Flash floats 1000/1000, he is mostly playing really bad and is going to get killed somehow. A Zerg can float huge amounts of money due to the larva mechanic. A Zerg going up to 2000/2000 is not a sign of bad macro at all times, it may just be for a muta switch or similar. A Protoss player can keep it to see what to warp in. Terran do not have that option.
Example:
If you are in a fight and focus on your macro. Both players micro intense and reach 1000 minerals and 1000 gas.
Protoss can then warp in 10 High Templars, make 5 Archons and the minerals is gone. Terran on the other hand needs to have shitloads of production to spend this money and wont get his army instantly.
It is generally true that Protoss units costs a lot more than Terran units per unit. Therefore you need to produce way less units as a Protoss player, simplifying the macro aswell. It is for an example much easier as a mech player to spend your resourcers when you have 7 factories then for the bio player that has 14 barracks since you can spend much more in each production wave (Thors, Vikings and Tanks costs more than Marauders+Marines and Medivacs). Terran can que up one more cyle of units beffore major fight begins, while protoss has to stop microing for a second in the middle of battle and warp in units, othervise he will never be able to get them out in time cause he missed the warp in cyle, meaning less units few minutes later in game. See we can do this other way arround also? You cannot train units when maxed and using the queue is not macroing efficiently, the money is gone but it is not being used. Also, if you miss a warp-in cycle, it does not hurt as much as a Terran missing a production cycle. For Terran, that time and potential is permanently gone. Protoss (and Zerg as well) can choose to make a larger warp-in/larvae cycle instead a few seconds later. You still lose out, but not as much as Terran. Also, that one second of micro is given back by being able to choose where you warp-in the units AND what units you want. You can instantly choose then and there to warp in Zealots or Stalkers or High Templar or whatever you think will work best. On top of that, you can warp them in close to your army. Unless Terran is defending, Terran's units first need to be produced and then walk across the map. A Protoss that is attacking can get reinforcements instantly to aid the attack. Terran has to wait for the entire production cycle AND for the units to move across the map. I'd say that is well worth that one second of micro.
Protoss can choose to make a larger warp-in cycle later if the have excess warp gates. Terran can do the same and build excess barracks.
And yes, warp-in based production is different from queue-based one. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. No one is claiming anything different. In fact, it is part of the game design: The races are supposed to be different!
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I mean, its pretty obvious that the next balance patch will be for zerg. I hope they dont come up with a shitty movement speed buff (unless its for broodlords). I wish they would look at lair building time, so that cutting eco or uprades wont become an all in. Maybe 2base muta will be a thing again or fancy nydus timings. Or they make Infestor a viable T2 unit again. Maybe reducing building time, reduce/remove fungal research. Or, god pls pls pls, buff fucking neural (pls)!
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On September 13 2014 00:22 Svizcy wrote:
Terran can que up one more cyle of units beffore major fight begins, while protoss has to stop microing for a second in the middle of battle and warp in units, othervise he will never be able to get them out in time cause he missed the warp in cyle, meaning less units few minutes later in game.
See we can do this other way arround also?
Not really. You cannot simply queue and rally without checking up on those units at the rally points. At least I don't see that among pro games. They all have specific rally points, and from there they drag the units into the battlefield and spread, etc.
I wish Blizzard will make Gateways more viable in LOTV.. All they need to do is to reduce 5 seconds of build times on each unit once Warp gate is researched.
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On September 13 2014 03:29 Terence Chill wrote:
I mean, its pretty obvious that the next balance patch will be for zerg. I hope they dont come up with a shitty movement speed buff (unless its for broodlords). I wish they would look at lair building time, so that cutting eco or uprades wont become an all in. Maybe 2base muta will be a thing again or fancy nydus timings. Or they make Infestor a viable T2 unit again. Maybe reducing building time, reduce/remove fungal research. Or, god pls pls pls, buff fucking neural (pls)!
I think a brood buff could be useful. Tempests made them absolutely useless* past some timing attacks and it would help zerg with breaking turtle mech. I also agree on the neural buff, its one of the coolest skills in the game!
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On September 13 2014 03:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2014 00:28 Foxxan wrote:On September 13 2014 00:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 12 2014 23:53 Foxxan wrote:On September 12 2014 23:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Swarmhosts/Infestor blocks unit movement for Zerg
Marauders limits unit movement for Terran
Oh god help us that Protoss also has a similar unit
Protoss already tried recall on first incarnation of mothership core and people complained it was OP
Protoss is already moving away from deathball gameplay except for the "final push" which is the exact same way Terran finishes the game as well (all three races actually when they think they're going to win)
And so what? The post before by you made it sound like protoss HAS NO TOOLS therefore they need the warpgate mechanic. Iam simple pointing it out to you and others that protoss has tools which can be done for a new patch or for lotv without having the warpgate mechanic. The post I made before that said that Protoss has a higher supply per unit average meaning that they have less actual units on the map than the other race. Being that they are naturally outnumbered they can't split up their army, meaning in order to give them maneuverability and map mobility they have to use warp ins to match Zerg and Terran map mobility. You bringing force fields is meaningless since I could just bring up onfestors and marauders and we're back to needing warp ins for mobility. Warp Ins allows the race with the outnumbered, immobile army to be mobile without simply changing their units to be more similar to the other races. This is Starcraft not warcraft2 . So what if protoss has a higher supply per unit count. This is 100% irrelevant. The relevant part is how well the units fight each other. If zealot and archon can move out on the map, split its armee, fight zerglings/roaches and marines/marauders well, that would be awesome and doesnt make the races equal. Recall teleport units. Very powerful. In an instant. Do you really think making zealot/archon fast enough to keep up with zerglings, creep spread, speedvacs, and stim sprints is the better way to make Protoss more unique as a race? To have the race with the beefy high damage units b also the race with the fast units also? Stop your bias please.
I never said they would run as fast as zerglings, nor creep spread. It feels impossible to talk to you.
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On September 13 2014 01:00 Don Jimbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2014 00:58 submarine wrote:On September 13 2014 00:22 Svizcy wrote:On September 13 2014 00:17 Glorfindel! wrote:
Regarding the Terran vs Protoss-macro you are forgetting the cost of the units.
If a Protoss player is floating 1000 minerals, he can warp in 10 Zealots and the float is gone. Meanwhile a Terran player needs to produce 20 marines (10 baracks that has to have 10 SCVs building, with a reactor on each).
Stalkers costs a lot. Not to mention DTs, High Templars and other units that instantly can drain a mineral/gas-float.
Terran can never float those huge amounts of echo since they mostly do not have the ability to dump it into expensive units fast. Something making the Protoss macro a bit easier on this part then the Terran macro.
For an example if you see a terran pro like Flash floats 1000/1000, he is mostly playing really bad and is going to get killed somehow. A Zerg can float huge amounts of money due to the larva mechanic. A Zerg going up to 2000/2000 is not a sign of bad macro at all times, it may just be for a muta switch or similar. A Protoss player can keep it to see what to warp in. Terran do not have that option.
Example:
If you are in a fight and focus on your macro. Both players micro intense and reach 1000 minerals and 1000 gas.
Protoss can then warp in 10 High Templars, make 5 Archons and the minerals is gone. Terran on the other hand needs to have shitloads of production to spend this money and wont get his army instantly.
It is generally true that Protoss units costs a lot more than Terran units per unit. Therefore you need to produce way less units as a Protoss player, simplifying the macro aswell. It is for an example much easier as a mech player to spend your resourcers when you have 7 factories then for the bio player that has 14 barracks since you can spend much more in each production wave (Thors, Vikings and Tanks costs more than Marauders+Marines and Medivacs). Terran can que up one more cyle of units beffore major fight begins, while protoss has to stop microing for a second in the middle of battle and warp in units, othervise he will never be able to get them out in time cause he missed the warp in cyle, meaning less units few minutes later in game. See we can do this other way arround also? You can't que when you are maxed. You have to rebuild while you loose stuff. In general warp gates are pretty effective compared to rax. Even gateways are more effective then rax. In general a terran most of the time tries to use his rax nonstop, while gateways are cheap enough to have slack. The trade-off is that gateway units are terrible in the late game. So we are forced to rely on mass splash damage to compete. If warpgate didn't exist, you would need to contend with powerful dragoons instead of glass stalkers.
I still dont understand how can someone say this... yes! gateway units ALONE are terrible pretty much no matter what part of the game (unless we re talking blink stalkers in PvT before 10th minute). But unless u lose all your Colossi, VRs or whatever high cost units..... 3/3 chargelots, archons, HTs are pretty damn good lategame units in PvT and blink stalkers in PvZ + the fact that u can reinforce with them into the battle right after the first units die unlike the other races. So i really cant agree that gateway units suck in late game...i would say they suck in the early/mid-game without support.
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I want to see more Carriers, Battlecruisers, Nukes, and Neural Parasites.
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On September 13 2014 03:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2014 00:28 Foxxan wrote:On September 13 2014 00:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 12 2014 23:53 Foxxan wrote:On September 12 2014 23:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Swarmhosts/Infestor blocks unit movement for Zerg
Marauders limits unit movement for Terran
Oh god help us that Protoss also has a similar unit
Protoss already tried recall on first incarnation of mothership core and people complained it was OP
Protoss is already moving away from deathball gameplay except for the "final push" which is the exact same way Terran finishes the game as well (all three races actually when they think they're going to win)
And so what? The post before by you made it sound like protoss HAS NO TOOLS therefore they need the warpgate mechanic. Iam simple pointing it out to you and others that protoss has tools which can be done for a new patch or for lotv without having the warpgate mechanic. The post I made before that said that Protoss has a higher supply per unit average meaning that they have less actual units on the map than the other race. Being that they are naturally outnumbered they can't split up their army, meaning in order to give them maneuverability and map mobility they have to use warp ins to match Zerg and Terran map mobility. You bringing force fields is meaningless since I could just bring up onfestors and marauders and we're back to needing warp ins for mobility. Warp Ins allows the race with the outnumbered, immobile army to be mobile without simply changing their units to be more similar to the other races. This is Starcraft not warcraft2 . So what if protoss has a higher supply per unit count. This is 100% irrelevant. The relevant part is how well the units fight each other. If zealot and archon can move out on the map, split its armee, fight zerglings/roaches and marines/marauders well, that would be awesome and doesnt make the races equal. Recall teleport units. Very powerful. In an instant. Do you really think making zealot/archon fast enough to keep up with zerglings, creep spread, speedvacs, and stim sprints is the better way to make Protoss more unique as a race? To have the race with the beefy high damage units b also the race with the fast units also? Stop your bias please.
You should teach strawman 101.
And yes, it would make a lot of sense if toss could move out on the map, regardless of which specific solution is chosen.
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On September 13 2014 04:20 DinoMight wrote:
I want to see more Carriers, Battlecruisers, Nukes, and Neural Parasites.
The moment they become commonplace is the moment they become boring and anti-climactic.
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I really don't know why there is still the debate about protoss not being favored in TvP, to me it is like absolutely clear.
Early aggression is like almost completely shut down due to Photon Overcharge.
Even though that in very rare occassions terrans are able to do some damage, but in general the possibilities are close to zero. While protoss has like dozens of different possible aggressions which are like freaking hard to hold off.
Even just a simple zealot, stalker, msc poke can do a lot of damage if you are not perfectly prepared for it.
Oracles, dts, blink stalkers, immortal all ins - there are so many different aggressive openings available, while as terran mostly like casters say 'has success when getting the photon overcharge casted'.
Talking about late game, if I'd been asked which army to choose in lategame I'd take ofc the protoss army since its so freaking strong. I mean I could understand that protoss needs to go for that to face the huge bioball, but terran has literally no other option to deviate from this anymore, since mech gets crushed so easily.
There is definitely no question to me, if protoss needs like big redesign to make the matchup more varying.
I am really so angry about this, its just not enjoyable anymore. Even when I lose to fellow terrans or zergs I at least feel like a interesting game has been played, but vs protoss its always the same stale gameplay which forces terran to do the same all the time with having no or at least almost no options for early effective aggression, not able to punish failed investments of protoss and always being not favored in the late game.
Sry for the big whine, but it feels totally good to me, to put my word to the community.
EDIT:
To the point of early game aggression:
I dont have a problem with protoss having a lot of options, just with terran having like very slim extremely weak options.7
Thats just a really badly ballanced/designed circumstance.
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On September 13 2014 07:29 _Epi_ wrote:
I really don't know why there is still the debate about protoss not being favored in TvP, to me it is like absolutely clear.
Early aggression is like almost completely shut down due to Photon Overcharge.
Even though that in very rare occassions terrans are able to do some damage, but in general the possibilities are close to zero. While protoss has like dozens of different possible aggressions which are like freaking hard to hold off.
Even just a simple zealot, stalker, msc poke can do a lot of damage if you are not perfectly prepared for it.
Oracles, dts, blink stalkers, immortal all ins - there are so many different aggressive openings available, while as terran mostly like casters say 'has success when getting the photon overcharge casted'.
Talking about late game, if I'd been asked which army to choose in lategame I'd take ofc the protoss army since its so freaking strong. I mean I could understand that protoss needs to go for that to face the huge bioball, but terran has literally no other option to deviate from this anymore, since mech gets crushed so easily.
There is definitely no question to me, if protoss needs like big redesign to make the matchup more varying.
I am really so angry about this, its just not enjoyable anymore. Even when I lose to fellow terrans or zergs I at least feel like a interesting game has been played, but vs protoss its always the same stale gameplay which forces terran to do the same all the time with having no or at least almost no options for early effective aggression, not able to punish failed investments of protoss and always being not favored in the late game.
Sry for the big whine, but it feels totally good to me, to put my word to the community.
EDIT:
To the point of early game aggression:
I dont have a problem with protoss having a lot of options, just with terran having like very slim extremely weak options.7
Thats just a really badly ballanced/designed circumstance.
I don't know what you're on about, practically every factory build means early aggression for terran (hellions/mines), and the point of the aggression is not about activating photon overcharge.
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On September 13 2014 07:42 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2014 07:29 _Epi_ wrote:
I really don't know why there is still the debate about protoss not being favored in TvP, to me it is like absolutely clear.
Early aggression is like almost completely shut down due to Photon Overcharge.
Even though that in very rare occassions terrans are able to do some damage, but in general the possibilities are close to zero. While protoss has like dozens of different possible aggressions which are like freaking hard to hold off.
Even just a simple zealot, stalker, msc poke can do a lot of damage if you are not perfectly prepared for it.
Oracles, dts, blink stalkers, immortal all ins - there are so many different aggressive openings available, while as terran mostly like casters say 'has success when getting the photon overcharge casted'.
Talking about late game, if I'd been asked which army to choose in lategame I'd take ofc the protoss army since its so freaking strong. I mean I could understand that protoss needs to go for that to face the huge bioball, but terran has literally no other option to deviate from this anymore, since mech gets crushed so easily.
There is definitely no question to me, if protoss needs like big redesign to make the matchup more varying.
I am really so angry about this, its just not enjoyable anymore. Even when I lose to fellow terrans or zergs I at least feel like a interesting game has been played, but vs protoss its always the same stale gameplay which forces terran to do the same all the time with having no or at least almost no options for early effective aggression, not able to punish failed investments of protoss and always being not favored in the late game.
Sry for the big whine, but it feels totally good to me, to put my word to the community.
EDIT:
To the point of early game aggression:
I dont have a problem with protoss having a lot of options, just with terran having like very slim extremely weak options.7
Thats just a really badly ballanced/designed circumstance. I don't know what you're on about, practically every factory build means early aggression for terran (hellions/mines), and the point of the aggression is not about activating photon overcharge.
mines are currently i feel extremely easyily countered, with just having one observer they practically can do no damage, just in the most if you dont hit anything is lost mining time and thats it.
With helions you need to hit a specific timing otherwise they wont do anything and are dead weight later.
The thing is, if you fail committing to such an aggression you are terribly behind vs toss.
But think about it being vice versa, protoss failing with such an attempt isnt by far as behind as a terran with failing.
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Northern Ireland23783 Posts
TvP's I've been watching lately seem in a good place at the top level, with a whole bunch of different approaches employed. I haven't been watching as much lately and have started dipping my toes back in after a break so take that with a pinch of salt.
Definitely better than when Blink allins were sure to occur every BoX that's for sure.
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On September 13 2014 07:29 _Epi_ wrote:
I really don't know why there is still the debate about protoss not being favored in TvP, to me it is like absolutely clear.
Early aggression is like almost completely shut down due to Photon Overcharge.
Even though that in very rare occassions terrans are able to do some damage, but in general the possibilities are close to zero. While protoss has like dozens of different possible aggressions which are like freaking hard to hold off.
Even just a simple zealot, stalker, msc poke can do a lot of damage if you are not perfectly prepared for it.
Oracles, dts, blink stalkers, immortal all ins - there are so many different aggressive openings available, while as terran mostly like casters say 'has success when getting the photon overcharge casted'.
Talking about late game, if I'd been asked which army to choose in lategame I'd take ofc the protoss army since its so freaking strong. I mean I could understand that protoss needs to go for that to face the huge bioball, but terran has literally no other option to deviate from this anymore, since mech gets crushed so easily.
There is definitely no question to me, if protoss needs like big redesign to make the matchup more varying.
I am really so angry about this, its just not enjoyable anymore. Even when I lose to fellow terrans or zergs I at least feel like a interesting game has been played, but vs protoss its always the same stale gameplay which forces terran to do the same all the time with having no or at least almost no options for early effective aggression, not able to punish failed investments of protoss and always being not favored in the late game.
Sry for the big whine, but it feels totally good to me, to put my word to the community.
EDIT:
To the point of early game aggression:
I dont have a problem with protoss having a lot of options, just with terran having like very slim extremely weak options.7
Thats just a really badly ballanced/designed circumstance.
It has been like this since early WOL: Terrans claiming that they keep losing against inferior protosses and how the race is so easy to play. In reality the races are just very different and if you look at all of SC2, T has had more success than P. On a mid-level (diamond-ish), standard P might be easier than standard T - but at the same time cheesy/surprise T is easier than cheesy/surprise P at that level.
Overall, the game is really very balanced. One will always whine about the unique advantages of other races. (FUCK MUTAS FUCK THEM ARGH....  )
That being said, I would love mech to be more viable against P. It is a hard but fun comp to play against. Likewise, I loved the (late) days of 1-1-1. Very frustrating to lose against, but great when you held it.
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I really hope they don't buff anyone for the next 6 months or so personally
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Siege tanks are very underpowered at the moment. They need a range increase and some sort of damage bonus against Protoss units.
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Right now at the very top T&P > Z for sure, like I mentioned a few pages ago, there's a reason every Zerg got picked so fast for ro16 groups, aligulac paints the same picture.
Terran is winning TvZ by the same margins they won at the beginning of hots, and ZvP is very map dependant, but in general favors Protoss.
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On September 13 2014 12:22 sibs wrote:
Right now at the very top T&P > Z for sure, like I mentioned a few pages ago, there's a reason every Zerg got picked so fast for ro16 groups, aligulac paints the same picture.
Terran is winning TvZ by the same margins they won at the beginning of hots, and ZvP is very map dependant, but in general favors Protoss.
I don't know man. Code S Zergs are doing really well. I believe soO can finally win GSL this season.
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On September 13 2014 12:22 sibs wrote:
Right now at the very top T&P > Z for sure, like I mentioned a few pages ago, there's a reason every Zerg got picked so fast for ro16 groups, aligulac paints the same picture.
Terran is winning TvZ by the same margins they won at the beginning of hots, and ZvP is very map dependant, but in general favors Protoss.
And yet before the widowmine nerf things were 50/50 with zerg having adapted. Now is not the time for a kneejerk reaction
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EPT
