EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1086
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jojos11
Korea (North)314 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 12 2014 11:32 Thieving Magpie wrote: Then its too bad that the race with the highest on average supply cost units within their army is given a way to have the same maneuverability around the map as the other two races. Protoss has access to recall. In lotv, this could be encouraged more and better. Aka, on another spellcaster or anything. Protoss can still have access to the warpin through other means. Protoss could most likely move away from the deathball gameplay and more into terran/zerg style where they can move out on the map. Zealots could get faster movementspeed. And protoss is the race right now with forcefield. This one blocks enemy movementspeed. So they have worse maneuverability but its the only race with path blocking. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
Marauders limits unit movement for Terran Oh god help us that Protoss also has a similar unit Protoss already tried recall on first incarnation of mothership core and people complained it was OP Protoss is already moving away from deathball gameplay except for the "final push" which is the exact same way Terran finishes the game as well (all three races actually when they think they're going to win) | ||
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antiRW
United Kingdom117 Posts
On September 12 2014 10:50 Fecalfeast wrote: I'm not gonna touch the subjective "Z/P/T macro is easier/harder" thing going on here. I will, however, bring up something that bothers more people than just me. Protoss, if given any sort of forward position on the map, can reinforce that position INSTANTLY with just a pylon/warpprism. Miss a probe that snuck into your main? Entire production cycles worth of any gateway unit in your base. Miss a probe out on the map? Protoss aggression becomes unrelenting as they may as well have all of their production facilities outside your base. That zealot drop you didn't notice? It's actually zealots/stalkers/DTs 5 seconds later and now your ramp is blocked. I understand that terran gets flying medic dropships and zerg gets the infinite capacity nydus worm but neither race can build entire production cycles anywhere on the map that they decide to build a 100 mineral building, and their dropship can turn into a mobile unit warper. Just my shit-tier opinion but I think a lot of the things people complain about regarding protoss are somehow related to the current warpgate/warp-in mechanic. If you miss a probe that snuck into your main, you *deserve* to get punished. If you miss terran dropping somewhere or a nydus building in your main, you equally deserve to be punished. Protoss drop: Are you saying protoss has too much drop capabilities? Warprism only works as a distraction or surprise and is one of the more interesting things. Drops generally require lot of attention, APM, micro, decision making - in short, all that what people always whine about. Terran with fast and healing dropships has way stronger drop capabilities. The 10+ zealot warp-ins only happen late-game and are not on par with the 5+ dropship doom drops. Zerg would have reasons to complain about missing drop options, but then mutas fill that role to a good degree. As P, I hate playing against highly mobil T drops, but it is part of the game. Like it or not, protoss instant reinforcement are also a key feature of the race as blizzard designed it. | ||
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antiRW
United Kingdom117 Posts
On September 12 2014 23:30 Thieving Magpie wrote: Swarmhosts/Infestor blocks unit movement for Zerg Marauders limits unit movement for Terran Oh god help us that Protoss also has a similar unit Protoss already tried recall on first incarnation of mothership core and people complained it was OP Protoss is already moving away from deathball gameplay except for the "final push" which is the exact same way Terran finishes the game as well (all three races actually when they think they're going to win) Yet when protoss meta moves to aggressive play, people start complaining about how aggressive warp-ins, protoss air or all-ins are op. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 12 2014 23:30 Thieving Magpie wrote: Swarmhosts/Infestor blocks unit movement for Zerg Marauders limits unit movement for Terran Oh god help us that Protoss also has a similar unit Protoss already tried recall on first incarnation of mothership core and people complained it was OP Protoss is already moving away from deathball gameplay except for the "final push" which is the exact same way Terran finishes the game as well (all three races actually when they think they're going to win) And so what? The post before by you made it sound like protoss HAS NO TOOLS therefore they need the warpgate mechanic. Iam simple pointing it out to you and others that protoss has tools which can be done for a new patch or for lotv without having the warpgate mechanic. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 12 2014 23:53 Foxxan wrote: And so what? The post before by you made it sound like protoss HAS NO TOOLS therefore they need the warpgate mechanic. Iam simple pointing it out to you and others that protoss has tools which can be done for a new patch or for lotv without having the warpgate mechanic. The post I made before that said that Protoss has a higher supply per unit average meaning that they have less actual units on the map than the other race. Being that they are naturally outnumbered they can't split up their army, meaning in order to give them maneuverability and map mobility they have to use warp ins to match Zerg and Terran map mobility. You bringing force fields is meaningless since I could just bring up onfestors and marauders and we're back to needing warp ins for mobility. Warp Ins allows the race with the outnumbered, immobile army to be mobile without simply changing their units to be more similar to the other races. This is Starcraft not warcraft2 . | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Personally I think it's interesting and sets the race apart from the other two in a way that adds depth to the game. Yeah some things have to be balanced around it, but the same can be said about anything. For example - why do Terran buildings need to fly? They don't NEED to, but it's a cool feature that adds depth to the game. Give it some time and people will figure out ways to play differently. MC showcased a very interesting style vs. Flash using Templar and a lot of Warp Prism harass even post widow mine buff. And Zest's Blink before Robo build allows him to be out and about on the map early. Yes, eventually the Protoss army will have to gather up and make a big "deathball" push to kill the enemy, but Terran and Zerg do that too. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On September 12 2014 10:50 Fecalfeast wrote: I'm not gonna touch the subjective "Z/P/T macro is easier/harder" thing going on here. I will, however, bring up something that bothers more people than just me. Protoss, if given any sort of forward position on the map, can reinforce that position INSTANTLY with just a pylon/warpprism. Miss a probe that snuck into your main? Entire production cycles worth of any gateway unit in your base. Miss a probe out on the map? Protoss aggression becomes unrelenting as they may as well have all of their production facilities outside your base. That zealot drop you didn't notice? It's actually zealots/stalkers/DTs 5 seconds later and now your ramp is blocked. I understand that terran gets flying medic dropships and zerg gets the infinite capacity nydus worm but neither race can build entire production cycles anywhere on the map that they decide to build a 100 mineral building, and their dropship can turn into a mobile unit warper. Just my shit-tier opinion but I think a lot of the things people complain about regarding protoss are somehow related to the current warpgate/warp-in mechanic. I think this is just basic protoss identity. While zerg typically plays to get a high enough economy advantage, protoss has a wider variety of game deciding strategies. - caught without detection? dark templar - didn't scout your main? warpgate - no anti-air? oracle - clump your units? storm - caught out of position? forcefield So as a protoss player you can win in multiple ways. I always enjoy it when a protoss player that's behind economically decides to go for the sentry drop to find a 'cheap' way to win, and if that doesn't work either to go for some phoenix/observer/dark templar ploy. Maybe all those things are gimmicky, overly punishing and easily figured out, but I think it's only the latter that's a real issue. The rest can all be defended as race identity. I think this is also why PvP can be a fun match-up during the mid-game, because you have all these crazy aggressive options that require you to create a situation where your opponent can be caught off-guard and not cover his bases. Chess is the same way, if you're behind you can try to complicate the game and look at a variety of tricks, traps and king hunts to "swindle" a victory. (yet warpgate should still be changed for lotv >.< ) | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
If a Protoss player is floating 1000 minerals, he can warp in 10 Zealots and the float is gone. Meanwhile a Terran player needs to produce 20 marines (10 baracks that has to have 10 SCVs building, with a reactor on each). Stalkers costs a lot. Not to mention DTs, High Templars and other units that instantly can drain a mineral/gas-float. Terran can never float those huge amounts of echo since they mostly do not have the ability to dump it into expensive units fast. Something making the Protoss macro a bit easier on this part then the Terran macro. For an example if you see a terran pro like Flash floats 1000/1000, he is mostly playing really bad and is going to get killed somehow. A Zerg can float huge amounts of money due to the larva mechanic. A Zerg going up to 2000/2000 is not a sign of bad macro at all times, it may just be for a muta switch or similar. A Protoss player can keep it to see what to warp in. Terran do not have that option. Example: If you are in a fight and focus on your macro. Both players micro intense and reach 1000 minerals and 1000 gas. Protoss can then warp in 10 High Templars, make 5 Archons and the minerals is gone. Terran on the other hand needs to have shitloads of production to spend this money and wont get his army instantly. It is generally true that Protoss units costs a lot more than Terran units per unit. Therefore you need to produce way less units as a Protoss player, simplifying the macro aswell. It is for an example much easier as a mech player to spend your resourcers when you have 7 factories then for the bio player that has 14 barracks since you can spend much more in each production wave (Thors, Vikings and Tanks costs more than Marauders+Marines and Medivacs). | ||
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Don Jimbo
70 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:17 Glorfindel! wrote: Regarding the Terran vs Protoss-macro you are forgetting the cost of the units. If a Protoss player is floating 1000 minerals, he can warp in 10 Zealots and the float is gone. Meanwhile a Terran player needs to produce 20 marines (10 baracks that has to have 10 SCVs building, with a reactor on each). Stalkers costs a lot. Not to mention DTs, High Templars and other units that instantly can drain a mineral/gas-float. Terran can never float those huge amounts of echo since they mostly do not have the ability to dump it into expensive units. Something making the Protoss macro a bit easier on this part then the Terran macro. Example: If you are in a fight and focus on your macro. Both players micro intense and reach 1000 minerals and 1000 gas. Protoss can then warp in 10 High Templars, make 5 Archons and the minerals is gone. Terran on the other hand needs to have shitloads of production to spend this money and wont get his army instantly. It is generally true that Protoss units costs a lot more than Terran units per unit. Therefore you need to produce way less units as a Protoss player, simplifying the macro aswell. It is for an example much easier as a mech player to spend your resourcers when you have 7 factories then for the bio player that has 14 barracks since you can spend much more in each production wave (Thors, Vikings and Tanks costs more than Marauders+Marines and Medivacs). Gateway warp ins are great and everything but they are pretty unimpressive compared to the Zerg ability to remax with 40 mutas at once after a battle in the late game. That is something awesome and terrifying to behold, especially because all Zerg units come out of identical little green eggs. You won't know what's coming until it pops. :p | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:17 Glorfindel! wrote: Regarding the Terran vs Protoss-macro you are forgetting the cost of the units. If a Protoss player is floating 1000 minerals, he can warp in 10 Zealots and the float is gone. Meanwhile a Terran player needs to produce 20 marines (10 baracks that has to have 10 SCVs building, with a reactor on each). Stalkers costs a lot. Not to mention DTs, High Templars and other units that instantly can drain a mineral/gas-float. Terran can never float those huge amounts of echo since they mostly do not have the ability to dump it into expensive units fast. Something making the Protoss macro a bit easier on this part then the Terran macro. For an example if you see a terran pro like Flash floats 1000/1000, he is mostly playing really bad and is going to get killed somehow. A Zerg can float huge amounts of money due to the larva mechanic. A Zerg going up to 2000/2000 is not a sign of bad macro at all times, it may just be for a muta switch or similar. A Protoss player can keep it to see what to warp in. Terran do not have that option. Example: If you are in a fight and focus on your macro. Both players micro intense and reach 1000 minerals and 1000 gas. Protoss can then warp in 10 High Templars, make 5 Archons and the minerals is gone. Terran on the other hand needs to have shitloads of production to spend this money and wont get his army instantly. It is generally true that Protoss units costs a lot more than Terran units per unit. Therefore you need to produce way less units as a Protoss player, simplifying the macro aswell. It is for an example much easier as a mech player to spend your resourcers when you have 7 factories then for the bio player that has 14 barracks since you can spend much more in each production wave (Thors, Vikings and Tanks costs more than Marauders+Marines and Medivacs). Terran can que up one more cyle of units beffore major fight begins, while protoss has to stop microing for a second in the middle of battle and warp in units, othervise he will never be able to get them out in time cause he missed the warp in cyle, meaning less units few minutes later in game. See we can do this other way arround also? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:03 Thieving Magpie wrote: The post I made before that said that Protoss has a higher supply per unit average meaning that they have less actual units on the map than the other race. Being that they are naturally outnumbered they can't split up their army, meaning in order to give them maneuverability and map mobility they have to use warp ins to match Zerg and Terran map mobility. You bringing force fields is meaningless since I could just bring up onfestors and marauders and we're back to needing warp ins for mobility. Warp Ins allows the race with the outnumbered, immobile army to be mobile without simply changing their units to be more similar to the other races. This is Starcraft not warcraft2 . So what if protoss has a higher supply per unit count. This is 100% irrelevant. The relevant part is how well the units fight each other. If zealot and archon can move out on the map, split its armee, fight zerglings/roaches and marines/marauders well, that would be awesome and doesnt make the races equal. Recall teleport units. Very powerful. In an instant. | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:22 Svizcy wrote: Terran can que up one more cyle of units beffore major fight begins, while protoss has to stop microing for a second in the middle of battle and warp in units, othervise he will never be able to get them out in time cause he missed the warp in cyle, meaning less units few minutes later in game. See we can do this other way arround also? Well to que up units actually is never good if you can avoid it. Sure it makes money go away, but just to a place where it is actually not spend. If you have one barack with 5 marines for 250 minerals you aint macroing well. You are just keeping your minerals low. That aint the same thing. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:22 Svizcy wrote: Terran can que up one more cyle of units beffore major fight begins, while protoss has to stop microing for a second in the middle of battle and warp in units, othervise he will never be able to get them out in time cause he missed the warp in cyle, meaning less units few minutes later in game. See we can do this other way arround also? You can't que when you are maxed. You have to rebuild while you loose stuff. In general warp gates are pretty effective compared to rax. Even gateways are more effective then rax. In general a terran most of the time tries to use his rax nonstop, while gateways are cheap enough to have slack. | ||
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Don Jimbo
70 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:58 submarine wrote: You can't que when you are maxed. You have to rebuild while you loose stuff. In general warp gates are pretty effective compared to rax. Even gateways are more effective then rax. In general a terran most of the time tries to use his rax nonstop, while gateways are cheap enough to have slack. The trade-off is that gateway units are terrible in the late game. So we are forced to rely on mass splash damage to compete. If warpgate didn't exist, you would need to contend with powerful dragoons instead of glass stalkers. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:22 Svizcy wrote: Terran can que up one more cyle of units beffore major fight begins, while protoss has to stop microing for a second in the middle of battle and warp in units, othervise he will never be able to get them out in time cause he missed the warp in cyle, meaning less units few minutes later in game. See we can do this other way arround also? You cannot train units when maxed and using the queue is not macroing efficiently, the money is gone but it is not being used. Also, if you miss a warp-in cycle, it does not hurt as much as a Terran missing a production cycle. For Terran, that time and potential is permanently gone. Protoss (and Zerg as well) can choose to make a larger warp-in/larvae cycle instead a few seconds later. You still lose out, but not as much as Terran. Also, that one second of micro is given back by being able to choose where you warp-in the units AND what units you want. You can instantly choose then and there to warp in Zealots or Stalkers or High Templar or whatever you think will work best. On top of that, you can warp them in close to your army. Unless Terran is defending, Terran's units first need to be produced and then walk across the map. A Protoss that is attacking can get reinforcements instantly to aid the attack. Terran has to wait for the entire production cycle AND for the units to move across the map. I'd say that is well worth that one second of micro. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
We can keep going at this all day. Yes, the races are designed differently. But at the end of the day is it balanced? The answer is: it's pretty damn close. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:28 Foxxan wrote: So what if protoss has a higher supply per unit count. This is 100% irrelevant. The relevant part is how well the units fight each other. If zealot and archon can move out on the map, split its armee, fight zerglings/roaches and marines/marauders well, that would be awesome and doesnt make the races equal. Recall teleport units. Very powerful. In an instant. Do you really think making zealot/archon fast enough to keep up with zerglings, creep spread, speedvacs, and stim sprints is the better way to make Protoss more unique as a race? To have the race with the beefy high damage units b also the race with the fast units also? Stop your bias please. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
Besides helping out Protoss in early game, this has an added bonus of differentiating skilled Protoss players from unskilled ones, at least when it comes to mid-to-late game macro, which is a positive in my book. Having said that, I can't help but observe the total disappearance of other cool strats. Banshees are all but dead in PvT, and no one tries strats like Spine crawler rushes. This is a negative side effect. Is there a way to keep the positives of Nexus cannon while negating its negatives? I am not sure if there is. I am just asking. I think creativity is important part of the RTS. | ||
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