Summary: FXO has left the s2con organization in Korea. The reasons cited are that the representative through which s2con communicated with FXO committed various acts against FXO that are presently being construed as blackmail and threats. FXOBoss will be meeting with s2con in September to discuss the issue.
EDIT: BELOW IS BASED ON ONE PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF SC2CON AND IS NOT A REPRESENTATION OF THE KOREAN MANAGERS OR PLAYERS. HOWEVER SINCE THE ACTION WAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF SC2CON, I HAVE GENERALISED
After my initial post. I have receieved alot of communication with the Korean community, including the person with whom FXO have had a huge problem with.
Although the acts that I perceived as threats and blackmail are still being perceived as such I have been requested to give a chance to the organisation, until we meet in Korea in September.
After this organisation has met. I will act with the same transparency as I have in the initial post that was posted here.
Everything that happens, plus a detailed explanation of what will happen will be posted here. Which will document the entire thing for public knowledge.
I hope I haven't upset anyone by removing this post, but I feel its best for business to take the meeting first.
You gotta do what you gotta do, Starcraft 2 is no longer "Just Korea" , if that was the case we would be run by the Evil Empire ( Kespa ) Good Job FXO.
-SC2CON = Evil Empire.
-FXO = Rebel Alliance :D
- On a more serious note, i believe the International teams, FXO, TL;, EG dignitas etc etc, Should start thinking of creating an organization, SC2CON / KESPA are not acceptable SC2 is not just Korea, we are no longer in Broodwar , in the times where the Evil Empire ruled the Kuprulu Sector.
-however something like SC2CON is needed but should not be exclusive or just Korea, such thing is unacceptable, GJ FXOBOSS. :D
-PS. : I officially declare SC2CON "EVIL EMPIRE" from now on.
With all that's happened, it seems pretty obvious now that there's something shady going on about SC2CON. Not just a second Kespa, but potentially even worse.
I thought that sc2con was meant to protect the player's rights but from their actions in the past few weeks I think they are just trying to manipulate the Korean teams to do their whims.
Best of luck FXO. I hope to see some of your Korean division in the upcoming NASL (and if possible support individual Korean players who are interested but lack team support due to SC2Con's influence). Bold move in setting an example others may follow.
Please continue to support ESports.
Something is really fishy about the operation of SC2Con: exactly who are controlling the organization? Are the players aware of its powers? If more light are shred on the issue others may be more open to discussing the shady deals.
Wow. This seems extremely unprofessional of them. Really? Blackmails, midnight calls, and threats? This is just like a baby throwing a tantrum in order to get what it wants.
And as for making the logo more "Korean flag like," it just doesn't make sense. GSL = Global Starcraft League, no? Why does FXO need to change their logo to fit what the Koreans want when this is a GLOBAL league?
Might as well just swap the Global for Gom TV. Makes a lot more sense and gives the league more of a Korean feel. -_-
I've also been trying to contact someone directly who's involved in our situation because right now everything I hear is from 3rd party sources. I've been trying to get ahold of someone but can't. This is so incredibly frustrating for me T_T
One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
I'm going to wait to see more details unfold but so far, everything you have done has been transparent and trustworthy. Keep fighting Boss, we support you and what you're doing in Korea.
On August 14 2011 14:09 HolyArrow wrote: One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
They need to do something like other professional sports do to avoid Kespa. An over ruling body, an organization for management, and an organization for players. The thing is that there isn't really money in Korea for an over ruling body. Maybe GOM can be that?
On August 14 2011 14:09 HolyArrow wrote: One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
I believe all team coaches are members. The manager of S2Con was StarTale's coach but he stepped down after the TSL/FD/Trickster thing. It's hard to say what the Korean reaction will be, Koreans are unforgiving but are also very loyal to their own kind. Hopefully S2Con disbands or gets shunned.
On August 14 2011 14:09 HolyArrow wrote: One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
I think the StarTale coach is the main guy there.
He stepped down. Sheesh, can't you keep up with the drama?
the ST coach was at the top of the food chain at some time. But he was not the one who caused any issues. I have full respect for him. He is communicating with us regularly also.
This does not reflect on him as a person or coach.
On August 14 2011 14:01 FXOpen wrote: They tried to determine what our players would wear, and that it had to represent Korea. Ummm what? We have a team jersey, we are a team... Although I dont say no to the idea of the Korean players perhaps having a Korea flag on their jersey, they were asking us to change our entire logos to be very korean flag-ish. Which is unacceptable in my eyes.
They are trying to force the name "FXO Korea" which is not the actual team name, we are FXO, a joint team helping each other. The FXO Korea is an internal management description. When this was explained, it was not accepted by sc2con.
The organization's demands here seem wholly unacceptable. FXO, and any other team, should be able to determine their own branding. Does sc2con maintain that they have overarching control over such matters so long as a team operates in Korea? Such a position would seem ridiculously protectionist and would be overall detrimental to the positive promotion of esports internationally.
SC2con is different from the SC2 players organization which is run by IMJunwi, right? I'm unclear of exactly what they do or manage? Doesn't GOM, in conjunction with Blizzard tournament requirements, handle all tournament rules? Regardless of the NASL drama, If they're not benefiting eSports or SC2, they should get out.
i don't see why everyone is blindly trying to compare sc2con to kespa. i'm pretty sure kespa didn't blackmail or insult their teams.
while it is undeniable that kespa have made some very dubious decisions in the past (broadcast rights, overseas pl finals), they uphold a clear, professional standard, something sc2con clearly isn't showing.
frankly i'd rather see kespa jump in asap than sc2con continuing, as there is already the neutral infrastructure in place.
On August 14 2011 14:09 HolyArrow wrote: One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
I believe all team coaches are members. The manager of S2Con was StarTale's coach but he stepped down after the TSL/FD/Trickster thing. It's hard to say what the Korean reaction will be, Koreans are unforgiving but are also very loyal to their own kind. Hopefully S2Con disbands or gets shunned.
Huh. Would it be fair to say that this news is kind of ruining my image of the coaches of various SC2 teams? I mean, after watching the GSTL for a few seasons, I've become familiar with the faces of all of the team coaches - I've rooted for them, empathized with them through their wins and losses, and it's disappointing to learn that at least some of them are, judging from FXOBoss's post, actually malicious (insults and blackmail? -_-;; ). I thought sc2con was just governed by some random people that I haven't heard of, but if the coaches are actually governing it, then that's EXTREMELY disappointing for me.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not immediately making a judgment, because I still have no real idea of who's doing the shitty governing that sc2con is displaying. I'd love for it not to be any of the coaches of the Korean teams that I have come to root for and respect.
Blackmailing and insulting? Jesus christ, I was for SC2CON so far. Even in NASL situation I believed in SC2con. Now this???? This is wayyyy too far. I lost all my support for it.
So this is what I take from all this sc2con is basically trying to have a kespa like hold on the Korean scene. Many coaches are going along with it just to keep the peace. sc2con makes bad decisions and uses blackmail to get their way,
They cause unneeded drama and arguements over nothing.
sc2 teams can pull out at any time though if they did there is a chance that they will pressure gom into not allowing that teams players to play anymore (unliekly that it'll work).
On August 14 2011 14:16 GTR wrote: i don't see why everyone is blindly trying to compare sc2con to kespa. i'm pretty sure kespa didn't blackmail or insult their teams.
while it is undeniable that kespa have made some very dubious decisions in the past, they uphold a clear, professional standard, something sc2con clearly isn't showing.
frankly i'd rather see kespa jump in asap than sc2con continuing, as there is already the neutral infrastructure in place.
i mean... i wasn't a round for it but how did they keep the teams from participating in gom tournament?
it may be that there were just contracts in place that they could enforce, in which case i agree that this is just another example of sc2 scene in korea not being formalized enough yet to be a true industry
If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
On August 14 2011 14:09 HolyArrow wrote: One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
I think the StarTale coach is the main guy there.
He stepped down. Sheesh, can't you keep up with the drama?
Apparently not lol! I have decided to stay out of all "drama" threads since the EG/Puma thing.
On August 14 2011 14:16 GTR wrote: i don't see why everyone is blindly trying to compare sc2con to kespa. i'm pretty sure kespa didn't blackmail or insult their teams.
while it is undeniable that kespa have made some very dubious decisions in the past, they uphold a clear, professional standard, something sc2con clearly isn't showing.
frankly i'd rather see kespa jump in asap than sc2con continuing, as there is already the neutral infrastructure in place.
The control levels of kespa are similar/the same. Albeit KESPA is perhaps more professional....
The bottom line is, a dictatorship may have worked in the 'old days' but it won't work on a global scene.
And as for making the logo more "Korean flag like," it just doesn't make sense. GSL = Global Starcraft League, no? Why does FXO need to change their logo to fit what the Koreans want when this is a GLOBAL league?
Thank you for hitting the nail on the head with this one.
I don't even know who or what SC2Con is and from the sounds of it no one does.
I mean SlayerS isn't in it so I got to figure thats for a good reason.
wow thanks for letting us know Boss.... I had a feeling that SC2Con Felt like Kespa.... I was hoping it was wrong but after reading this.... what the hell?
On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote: If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
Because teams not in sc2con are also taking the same action.... And there is a reason those teams arent in sc2con..... Sc2con had a limited 'helping hand' with the NASL debacle..
When it was started, i was led to believe that S2Con was more of a players association, rather than a governing body. If it keeps going down this road, i hope it folds quickly and something much better arises. It's a hard thing to watch unfold, but whenever people try to govern themselves, there is a process of trial and error that must be gone through to reach a final result of something good.
On a side note, whers is spunky in all of this? I thought he was one of the main guys starting S2Con, and from the interviews, was very against it becoming like kespa.
More and more reason to continue supporting fxo with their honesty. I hope that they weren't trying to sabotage the nasl thing either. It seems the teams really need to step it up and get rid of this
On August 14 2011 14:20 cerebralz wrote: When it was started, i was led to believe that S2Con was more of a players association, rather than a governing body. If it keeps going down this road, i hope it folds quickly and something much better arises. It's a hard thing to watch unfold, but whenever people try to govern themselves, there is a process of trial and error that must be gone through to reach a final result of something good.
KeSPA claims to be a player's association as well, but it doesn't act in the interest of players.
On August 14 2011 14:20 cerebralz wrote: When it was started, i was led to believe that S2Con was more of a players association, rather than a governing body. If it keeps going down this road, i hope it folds quickly and something much better arises. It's a hard thing to watch unfold, but whenever people try to govern themselves, there is a process of trial and error that must be gone through to reach a final result of something good.
There's a players association that is run by the players for the players, and then there's the sc2con which is run by the coaches/managers and whatnot.
On August 14 2011 14:20 cerebralz wrote: When it was started, i was led to believe that S2Con was more of a players association, rather than a governing body. If it keeps going down this road, i hope it folds quickly and something much better arises. It's a hard thing to watch unfold, but whenever people try to govern themselves, there is a process of trial and error that must be gone through to reach a final result of something good.
KeSPA claims to be a player's association as well, but it doesn't act in the interest of players.
no they dont haha
they used to but they took out the "player" in their name ages ago
You should have simply said that FXO and sc2con did not see eye to eye and decided to part ways. I don't think slandering the organization will help the cause.
i'm so confused, what does sc2con have to gain by behaving this way? don't they realise this time around there's actually a massive sc2 scene outside of korea and teams don't have to put up with their bs?
On August 14 2011 14:21 DarkDolphin wrote: SC2CON = Evil Empire, everyone make it a new trend .. Anyway SC2CON is not acceptable, the way they are running things will kill E-sports.
Stop pushing this so hard, its pathetic.
I don't really know much about how much control sc2con really has, but it seems more like the only power they really have is having the support of the teams in the sc2con. Either way, FXO was around before joining sc2con, and they will surely be around after leaving (especially with the all kills <3).
On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote: If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
Because teams not in sc2con are also taking the same action.... And there is a reason those teams arent in sc2con..... Sc2con had a limited 'helping hand' with the NASL debacle..
Because teams are not in SC2Con does not exclude them from being pressured from the organization.
Between NASL, FXO and SC2Con psuedo statement. There is something seriously funky going on over there and it does not appear to be above board at all.
On August 14 2011 14:21 DarkDolphin wrote: SC2CON = Evil Empire, everyone make it a new trend .. Anyway SC2CON is not acceptable, the way they are running things will kill E-sports.
You said this already on the first page. We get it.
KeSPA is actually tied to the government, so I don't understand why sc2con would think it would be even possible to emulate KeSPA without the approval of the government...
I mean, in any case it would turn out as a half-assed version of KeSPA. We all know how loathsome KeSPA can be, so I don't even want to imagine a worst version of it.
Anyway this whole stuff is really unfortunate because Korean players are the best, and they need the best environment. S2Con does not seem to provide such thing.
edit; also please let's not generalize and mix up things. Afaik this is not how things usually happen in Korea.
On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote: If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
Because teams not in sc2con are also taking the same action.... And there is a reason those teams arent in sc2con..... Sc2con had a limited 'helping hand' with the NASL debacle..
Because teams are not in SC2Con does not exclude them from being pressured from the organization.
Between NASL, FXO and SC2Con psuedo statement. There is something seriously funky going on over there and it does not appear to be above board at all.
There is alot of stuff re: NASL that I cant talk about as its heresay. But I can tell you that sc2con is only an 'organising party' in this situation. They did not spread or enforce anything to do with it.
On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote: If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
I haven't ever spoken to anyone from SC2Con. I've spoken to representatives of Korean teams. I've spoken to Mr Chae from GOMTV. However, nobody has ever told me who specifically is making decisions or anything, and nobody has ever even attempted to contact me directly.
Wow that is really unfortunate, and I'm sorry that you guys had to deal with that shit.
I wonder if in this light other teams might come out and say something about it, I doubt it though as a lot of the tension seems to revolve around the fact that you are a foreign team, and you're the only ones.
After the refusal of the NASL generous offer and now this, sc2con I don't think will be gaining much support.
Good decision FXO, I fully support you guys. Boss showing Korean nubs who's BOSS. Gj, tired of all this sc2con bullshit, a real organization would've handled all this drama shit much better, clearly not fully professional. FXO gogogogogogo!
On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote: If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
I haven't ever spoken to anyone from SC2Con. I've spoken to representatives of Korean teams. I've spoken to Mr Chae from GOMTV. However, nobody has ever told me who specifically is making decisions or anything, and nobody has ever even attempted to contact me directly.
Ok well if you don't know then I have no hope whatsoever.
What exactly is SC2 Con? Is it part of GOMTV or what? Why exactly is its existence necessary for the Starcraft 2 teams in Korea? I always thought that the teams there were always kind of independently run and decided to participate in tournaments like the GSL and GSTL, so what's the point of this organization?
i knew about the 'FXO Korea' business but i didnt know it was at the level of black mail and insulting... its all good though, FXO has always been an Int. team and it should stay that way.
I'm glad for fOu. They've been through rough times, but they sound like they'll be much better off now, with FXO and without sc2con. Special praise to Boss.
Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
Also, is there a reason why Kespa act that way? I guess they don't just like: "we don't care about the freaking players; we just gonna do whatever we want because we wanted to without any reason".
On August 14 2011 14:31 magnaflow wrote: Anyone know if the Korean teams have signed their players to contracts? Or are they still going off of goodwill?
After the Puma poaching they probably all signed contrasts. Terrible timing, because I bet some of those players must be thinking they'd rather be with a foreign team now that their teams are stopping them from playing in NASL.
On August 14 2011 14:05 youngminii wrote: More blows to the Korean scene.
Love the transparency, BoSs.
This. One of the major reasons I have become a big fan of FXO is their high level of transparency as a team in an era where almost everyone else is not simply because they know they can largely get away with it.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
I don't know the whole story but KeSPA didn't seem THAT bad to me. They just disqualified players for typing anything other than "gg" and "pp" and once a guy typed "ppp" because his monitor died, and he got disqualified and the forums went wild.
I think they changed the rule after that, but at the time they were just enforcing their own written rules.
They also told the Broodwar teams to stop participating in GSL (Broodwar) as well because they didn't want competition for the TV channels.
Boss made an excellent and courageous decision to fight back. I hope more team follow your example.
While his decision is not related to what happened with the NASL, I believe that this gives us even further insight into the kind of people managing sc2con and helps explain how the NASL debacle turned out to be so unprofessional and destructive.
All this stuff I've been reading lately about KR players vs foreign players and the governing organizations- it sounds like BW KR vs the world all over again =0\ Except this time it's looking like KR is going to be getting the short end of the stick; what with how popular SC2 is outside of KR- and how it is still less popular than BW in KR...
This whole drama is terrible news. The SC2 comunity must stick togheter in order to growrule the world! We obviously don't know the whole story, but even if FXOBoSs was just to tell his side he already wins a lot of points for keping so much transparency; more power to him!
I hope SC2CON has no lasting influence on the Korean scene, or any organizations that act in such a closed door manner. It seems to always result in perpetually controlling organizations that impact everything they touch in a negative manner.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
Yes they did things like set minimum practice hours and essentially code of conduct for players, among other things. They did many good things for esports in Korea, but some notable things they did bad were:
-Boycott Gomtv's BW league they made (ie tell players they couldn't play in it or they would have their progaming licenses revoked (which made them able to play in the MSL/OSL/Proleague)), essentially limiting the Korean tournament scene to OSL/MSL/Proleague and occasional special leagues like STX Master's, er hurting Esports.
-Defacing NaDa after he switched to SC2
-People don't like them as well because they are strict in their sometimes bureaucratic rules such as pausing without typing pp resulting in disqualifications
If I'm not mistaken, SC2Con is just an organization of teams who choose to join it. And if you join it, you are subject to it's rules or regulations and you vote on things as part of the organization, sort of like NATO? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) But, outside of SC2Con, they don't have authority over any tournaments or anything. Just the teams that agree to be part of it.
SC2Con does NOT work like NFL. When you are part of NFL, you play in NFL league, so you are subject to their regulations. NFL = GomTV or NASL but NFL =/= SC2Con. If SC2Con wanted to, they could have all the teams part of SC2Con to boycott like GSL or something to get GSL to do something, but they don't directly control anything.
This is the time where we need quality journalism to investigate what sc2con is, how it works and to document unethical behavior. For SC2 to grow as an e-sport, their actions are becoming increasingly questionable and counterproductive.
What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con. That's fine and it sounds like it was the best course of action for FXO.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
Yes they did things like set minimum practice hours and essentially code of conduct for players, among other things. They did many good things for esports in Korea, but some notable things they did bad were:
-Boycott Gomtv's BW league they made (ie tell players they couldn't play in it or they would have their progaming licenses revoked (which made them able to play in the MSL/OSL/Proleague)), essentially limiting the Korean tournament scene to OSL/MSL/Proleague and occasional special leagues like STX Master's, er hurting Esports.
-Defacing NaDa after he switched to SC2
-People don't like them as well because they are strict in their sometimes bureaucratic rules such as pausing without typing pp resulting in disqualifications
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
2 days ago, choya got a call at midnight with someone arguing with him about our team uniforms.
That enough for you? I try not to release too many details incase legalities ensue, and by mentioning the above statement, I can no longer use it in court if necessary as its been tainted by public knowledge. But since that was the least of if, it is an example.
When choya said "talk to Josh" i.e me. They wouldnt.
Whilst, of course honesty is a very big thing in any announcement, you have to understand there are legalities involved and posting every single thing can taint any legal case against someone.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con. That's fine and it sounds like it was the best course of action for FXO.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
Your supposed to understand that FXO has left the sc2con. He is not stating that sc2con should be hated by the community. He simply stated that he had issues with them, then he listed the issues and finally said that because of said issues FXO is leaving sc2con. Its an announcement, he doesn't need to give more detail because it is his decision how he manages his team.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
Yes they did things like set minimum practice hours and essentially code of conduct for players, among other things. They did many good things for esports in Korea, but some notable things they did bad were:
-Boycott Gomtv's BW league they made (ie tell players they couldn't play in it or they would have their progaming licenses revoked (which made them able to play in the MSL/OSL/Proleague)), essentially limiting the Korean tournament scene to OSL/MSL/Proleague and occasional special leagues like STX Master's, er hurting Esports.
-Defacing NaDa after he switched to SC2
-People don't like them as well because they are strict in their sometimes bureaucratic rules such as pausing without typing pp resulting in disqualifications
-Actually i think it was the teams decision to not join since only 5 teams were willing to come back for a season 4 so there was no point. SKT iirc did not participate in season 3 at all.
-They said it was a glitch so im half and half on this
-Well they did set the rules and if you are a professional you would follow it and thats what kespa did
They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches
Are you fucking shitting me? LOL. Well, that's something.
I thought SC2CON was a union made by the players, coaches, and managers. Where they try to establish guidelines on player working conditions, conflicts among teams, and stuff like that.
I think that is the intent, but this is what I imagine.
I suspect SC2Con, in actuality, is a small group of 'insiders' or greybeards from the Broodwar days comprised mainly of Team Managers and Coaches, that conspire together and force collusion and conformity between the teams. While they occasionally look out for player rights, they actually limit their opportunities and mobility, enforce working conditions only tolerable in Asian countries, and in general, have no formal process for selecting leaders or making decision.
FXOBoss or anyone else in the know: is this a fair assumption or completely off-base?
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
I don't know the whole story but KeSPA didn't seem THAT bad to me. They just disqualified players for typing anything other than "gg" and "pp" and once a guy typed "ppp" because his monitor died, and he got disqualified and the forums went wild.
I think they changed the rule after that, but at the time they were just enforcing their own written rules.
They also told the Broodwar teams to stop participating in GSL (Broodwar) as well because they didn't want competition for the TV channels.
I think I can stand with having rule to type "gg" and "pp" and stuff like that because they want it to have a professional look on TV (I remember QXC typed a whole sentence when he wanted to pause because he didn't know the rule, guess they don't want things like this on TV), but disqualifying is a little bit too far.
If they're a different organization to GSL(Broodwar) and competing for audience, then there's nothing wrong with banning players from GSL from competing in their league, right? So, why is there so much bad talk about Kespa on TL forum but I've never seen anyone explain why they're bad
On August 14 2011 14:04 3xiLe wrote: Actually, now I think about it, it almost reminds me of Animal Farm, ha. When it was briefly mentioned at the beginning of GSL and whatever, it was almost like "NO WE'RE NOT KESPA, YES WE'RE NOT KESPA, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BECOME KESPA", now it looks like they're the pigs.
Oh my god, this is so perfect.
I really wish things weren't so dramatic. Hope FXO can stand strong and all of its players as well!
I really hope more teams follow suit to bring dramatic changes to SC2Con or its closure and form a new group. I personally have been very wary of SC2Con since the previous drama and really think it is time for someone else to take control of it because it is not working for ESPORTS, but for money it seems.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
2 days ago, choya got a call at midnight with someone arguing with him about our team uniforms.
That enough for you? I try not to release too many details incase legalities ensue, and by mentioning the above statement, I can no longer use it in court if necessary as its been tainted by public knowledge. But since that was the least of if, it is an example.
When choya said "talk to Josh" i.e me. They wouldnt.
Whilst, of course honesty is a very big thing in any announcement, you have to understand there are legalities involved and posting every single thing can taint any legal case against someone.
Dear sir, I have the utmost respect you.
I agree that you should not/can not go into any details for legal reasons.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con. That's fine and it sounds like it was the best course of action for FXO.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
Your supposed to understand that FXO has left the sc2con. He is not stating that sc2con should be hated by the community. He simply stated that he had issues with them, then he listed the issues and finally said that because of said issues FXO is leaving sc2con. Its an announcement, he doesn't need to give more detail because it is his decision how he manages his team.
Well, he didn't have to list any reasons at all, but he did and they're pretty incriminating. I don't think it's possible for anyone to not become skeptical of sc2con, to say the least. Of course, it's a great thing he did though, I don't think he'd make this up, and I'm a bigger fan for it.
Thanks for the information BoSs we support you guys 100% (Koreans and Non-alike).
I think it's important that Koreans realize that the Kespa-like authority with fiat to do such as it pleases is not a necessity, and in fact, e-sports are growing exponentially more without such an authority in the US and abroad. It is something worth considering moving forward.
More teams will follow ! They were all tired of Kespa, but it looks tried to do the same thing ... what a shame. FXO ... fighting ... / too Korean / FXO kicking bu77 !!!
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
I don't know the whole story but KeSPA didn't seem THAT bad to me. They just disqualified players for typing anything other than "gg" and "pp" and once a guy typed "ppp" because his monitor died, and he got disqualified and the forums went wild.
I think they changed the rule after that, but at the time they were just enforcing their own written rules.
They also told the Broodwar teams to stop participating in GSL (Broodwar) as well because they didn't want competition for the TV channels.
I think I can stand with having rule to type "gg" and "pp" and stuff like that because they want it to have a professional look on TV (I remember QXC typed a whole sentence when he wanted to pause because he didn't know the rule, guess they don't want things like this on TV), but disqualifying is a little bit too far.
If they're a different organization to GSL(Broodwar) and competing for audience, then there's nothing wrong with banning players from GSL from competing in their league, right? So, why is there so much bad talk about Kespa on TL forum but I've never seen anyone explain why they're bad
You think it should be OK for an organization to say that you CAN'T play in another league if you want to play in ours?!?! That's like GSL and GSTL telling all their players they are not allowed to go to dream hack, NASL, or play in IPL if they want to be part of GSL. It's basically a monopoly. And when you monopolize, crazy shit goes down.
I think they are very much stuck in their hmm.. BW ways if put that way. I mean they are trying to control EVERYTHING it seems. And this scares me, because they will in the end alienate so many potential sponsors and foreign interests. Which sucks.
I for one hope they come to their senses.. For E-Sports sake.
1. Korean teams leave NASL 2. Korean teams leave SC2CON 3. Korean teams leave Korea 4. ??? 5. Proleague finals take place @ Madison Square Garden. 6. THERE IS NO 6! See 5.
I don't think people truly understand how prideful and ethnocentric Koreans can be. It's part of their culture. It's not a coincidence that communism took root and split that country in half.
As somebody already said, it doesn't matter what group comes and ousts the former corrupt group (sc2con) it will eventually just become corrupt itself like Animal Farm.
If Koreans feel like they are being disrespected they have to have revenge even if it's at the cost of mutual destruction. I said in the NASL thread that I was totally sure it was retribution for EG disrespecting a Korean team with the Puma "scandal."
Of course I'm not suggesting Koreans are "evil" or anything. I just question any governing body that doesn't have a global participation otherwise it's going to definitely shut out the outside world eventually.
On August 14 2011 14:05 DarkDolphin wrote: You gotta do what you gotta do, Starcraft 2 is no longer "Just Korea" , if that was the case we would be run by the Evil Empire ( Kespa ) Good Job FXO.
-SC2CON = Evil Empire.
-FXO = Rebel Alliance :D
- On a more serious note, i believe the International teams, FXO, TL;, EG dignitas etc etc, Should start thinking of creating an organization, SC2CON / KESPA are not acceptable SC2 is not just Korea, we are no longer in Broodwar , in the times where the Evil Empire ruled the Kuprulu Sector.
-however something like SC2CON is needed but should not be exclusive or just Korea, such thing is unacceptable, GJ FXOBOSS. :D
-PS. : I officially declare SC2CON "EVIL EMPIRE" from now on.
i take issue with your analogy. the empire was just trying to bring order to the galaxy. don't go throwing "evil" around willy nilly. the rebel alliance killed thousands of hardworking innocent death star crew members, and you make them out to be the "good guys".
i think i would usually not post this but i'm drunk and on heavy painkillers from surgery and i sick and tired of rebel scum ragging on the empire all the time
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con. That's fine and it sounds like it was the best course of action for FXO.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
Agree, seen I've heard that in Korean culture people are really respectful and that crime is rare in Korea. It's hard to believe that people from such culture would threaten you like some mafia gangs for no reason.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
I don't know the whole story but KeSPA didn't seem THAT bad to me. They just disqualified players for typing anything other than "gg" and "pp" and once a guy typed "ppp" because his monitor died, and he got disqualified and the forums went wild.
I think they changed the rule after that, but at the time they were just enforcing their own written rules.
They also told the Broodwar teams to stop participating in GSL (Broodwar) as well because they didn't want competition for the TV channels.
I think I can stand with having rule to type "gg" and "pp" and stuff like that because they want it to have a professional look on TV (I remember QXC typed a whole sentence when he wanted to pause because he didn't know the rule, guess they don't want things like this on TV), but disqualifying is a little bit too far.
If they're a different organization to GSL(Broodwar) and competing for audience, then there's nothing wrong with banning players from GSL from competing in their league, right? So, why is there so much bad talk about Kespa on TL forum but I've never seen anyone explain why they're bad
You think it should be OK for an organization to say that you CAN'T play in another league if you want to play in ours?!?! That's like GSL and GSTL telling all their players they are not allowed to go to dream hack, NASL, or play in IPL if they want to be part of GSL. It's basically a monopoly. And when you monopolize, crazy shit goes down.
Kespa wasn't just a league, though. It was a board comprised of the teams' coaches, managers, and sponsors. The reason Kespa could shut out GOM was because it effectively controls BW in Korea. A player who dared to oppose Kespa would have his pro-gamer license revoked and would be shunned by the pro-teams. Their careers would more or less be over.
The reason you want to avoid having organizations like this is that there's no check and balance - once established, they could abuse their power and there would be nothing you could do about it.
Seems like the Korean scene is in quite a bit of turmoil as far as teams and organization goes. Lots of problems and faults keep popping up. Hopefully these are just growing pains on the way to the level of organization and infrastructure that BW had.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con. That's fine and it sounds like it was the best course of action for FXO.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
Agree, seen I've heard that in Korean culture people are really respectful and that crime is rare in Korea. It's hard to believe that people from such culture would threaten you like some mafia gangs for no reason.
There are good and bad people, no matter where you're from. You seriously think every Korean is as humble as the pro sc2 players? You're making an extremely stupid assumption and such an idea never has existed and never will.
On June 23 2011 20:15 dala wrote: In this interview with Dong Rae Gu he get a question about streaming.
What do you want to say to all those in your fan club that want you to stream again? They are very sad you know.
I am sorry, I can't begin streaming again. I belong to the SC2 Association (E/N: this) and they prefer progamers don't stream.
Why would the SC2 Association have an opinion on this issue?
damnit SC2con ruining esport.
This is pretty normal sort of thing for professional sports to ask. NBA players aren't allowed to play basketball publicly outside of their teams, because the value in the ticket to see an NBA game is the chance to see those players play, and it loses value if it's available for free elsewhere, etc. All perfectly normal.
There's two things going on now, though. The first is jockeying for position about who gets that sort of role. In standard sports, it's as if GOMtv and sc2con were the same group. They have rules and conditions and run the league. And then other people buy the right to own a team that competes in the league, and in exchange agree that their team/players can't compete in other leagues (and that they'll bind the players to that in their contracts). And that works just fine for big team sports where in exchange for those sorts of limitations the players get big salaries. But right now the chance to compete in GSL isn't worth enough money to make it reasonable to agree to those limitations. It seems like they're trying to use soft pressure to make them happen in hopes that it then leads to more money for the teams (maybe by way of GOM? not sure how well they've thought this through). Depending on how this all works out, the money coming in could potentially end up mostly going to players, mostly going to teams, mostly going to league organizers, or any combination of the above. It also might go more to foreign teams or more to Korean teams. It's all very up in the air right now. If people think it's going to be super profitable one day, there are going to be these fights. (Of course, the fights also reduce the chance it'll end up super popular...)
On August 14 2011 14:57 kast_ wrote: whats the sc2con anyway?
its an organization that governs SC2 teams in how they operate. just like KESPA for BW. they have set rules that teams must follow to stay within the organization. having a team part of such an organization is beneficial....however in this case it seems like the benefits do not outweigh the cons.
On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote: If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
I am pretty sure NASL sent mail to the teams directly, but only heard back from SC2Con. Perhaps the teams were told not to respond?
On August 14 2011 14:57 kast_ wrote: whats the sc2con anyway?
its an organization that governs SC2 teams in how they operate. just like KESPA for BW. they have set rules that teams must follow to stay within the organization. having a team part of such an organization is beneficial....however in this case it seems like the benefits do not outweigh the cons.
What benefits do SC2con bring to the players and teams?
Hey Boss I have a question. Are you on good terms with Mr Chae? At the very least since he runs GSL he can deal with the whole FXO Korea thing. I think I'd be more comfortable with him in charge of stuff anyway.
On August 14 2011 14:51 vertical101 wrote: im curious why zenex player stop streaming
On June 23 2011 20:15 dala wrote: In this interview with Dong Rae Gu he get a question about streaming.
What do you want to say to all those in your fan club that want you to stream again? They are very sad you know.
I am sorry, I can't begin streaming again. I belong to the SC2 Association (E/N: this) and they prefer progamers don't stream.
Why would the SC2 Association have an opinion on this issue?
damnit SC2con ruining esport.
This is pretty normal sort of thing for professional sports to ask. NBA players aren't allowed to play basketball publicly outside of their teams, because the value in the ticket to see an NBA game is the chance to see those players play, and it loses value if it's available for free elsewhere, etc. All perfectly normal.
perfectly normal? get your head out of the sand man. this isnt the NBA, dont use their rules and apply it to SC2. God forbid what you say is "perfectly normal" within SC2, all the pro players on professional teams couldn't stream without restrictions.
On August 14 2011 14:57 kast_ wrote: whats the sc2con anyway?
its an organization that governs SC2 teams in how they operate. just like KESPA for BW. they have set rules that teams must follow to stay within the organization. having a team part of such an organization is beneficial....however in this case it seems like the benefits do not outweigh the cons.
What benefits do SC2con bring to the players and teams?
I think its supposed to bring structure and cohesion to the league as well as legal counsel and defense ideally. Mainly a management role and an intermediate between players/teams and tournaments/businesses. I think, at least ideally.
On August 14 2011 14:51 vertical101 wrote: im curious why zenex player stop streaming
On June 23 2011 20:15 dala wrote: In this interview with Dong Rae Gu he get a question about streaming.
What do you want to say to all those in your fan club that want you to stream again? They are very sad you know.
I am sorry, I can't begin streaming again. I belong to the SC2 Association (E/N: this) and they prefer progamers don't stream.
Why would the SC2 Association have an opinion on this issue?
damnit SC2con ruining esport.
This is pretty normal sort of thing for professional sports to ask. NBA players aren't allowed to play basketball publicly outside of their teams, because the value in the ticket to see an NBA game is the chance to see those players play, and it loses value if it's available for free elsewhere, etc. All perfectly normal.
Basketball players also get handsomely compensated with a minimum salaried contract in the minimum range of $700,000 per year, paid incrementally every two weeks. They also get free trainers and access to training facilities, coaches, mental and physical health workings, and can sleep in their own frigging apartment.
On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote: If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
I am pretty sure NASL sent mail to the teams directly, but only heard back from SC2Con. Perhaps the teams were told not to respond?
I emailed teams directly, and heard back from Mr.Chae -- I never even spoke to anyone who made decisions
guys I have edited the front. To explain that my posts have nothing to do with the managers on board of sc2con, but more the person who was representing sc2con. Please understand that I have no problem with any team managers, or players.
On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote: If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message.
I am pretty sure NASL sent mail to the teams directly, but only heard back from SC2Con. Perhaps the teams were told not to respond?
I emailed teams directly, and heard back from Mr.Chae -- I never even spoke to anyone who made decisions
I could be quality english speakers among teams is hard to come by, and Mr. Chae also has a lot of experience deal with foreign interests. (Or at least more then they do).
This is interesting news though. Hopefully there is substantial reform on the part of SC2Con so that teams can once again have a forum where interests can be frankly discussed and broader strategies planned.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
Yes they did things like set minimum practice hours and essentially code of conduct for players, among other things. They did many good things for esports in Korea, but some notable things they did bad were:
-Boycott Gomtv's BW league they made (ie tell players they couldn't play in it or they would have their progaming licenses revoked (which made them able to play in the MSL/OSL/Proleague)), essentially limiting the Korean tournament scene to OSL/MSL/Proleague and occasional special leagues like STX Master's, er hurting Esports.
-Defacing NaDa after he switched to SC2
-People don't like them as well because they are strict in their sometimes bureaucratic rules such as pausing without typing pp resulting in disqualifications
-Do the players get fined for not having a certain practice hours? About code of conduct, I guess they don't want someone like Idra or CombatEX. I'm fine with that. They tried to be manner and professional.
-Boycotting Gomtv's BW is fine to me if they're in competition with Gomtv. Different Organizations or companies competing against each other for TV market. That's just normal.
-Well, Nada moving to Gomtv and switching to SC2 would hurt their market share since they're an organization that depends on revenue to feed their employees. Giving Nada bad image is just normal. It happens between foreign players switching teams sometimes.
I feel really bad to read stuff like that. It's a shame how things are going atm on KR. I hope we get a better org and we get some improvement on the relation between South Korea and the rest of the world concerning e-sports future.
FXOBoss is so appropriately named. Thank you for the transparency, it is really eye-opening, and as you have already mentioned I'm sure you'll still be smart about what to post and not post just in case. Your clarity regarding ST coach is also nice. Many thanks. Boss rules.
That's quite a tricky situation going on over there. Hope everything works out and SC2con doesn't become the raging behemoth it looks like it's moving towards
On August 14 2011 15:05 FXOpen wrote: guys I have edited the front. To explain that my posts have nothing to do with the managers on board of sc2con, but more the person who was representing sc2con. Please understand that I have no problem with any team managers, or players.
Well Koreans believe another KESPA should be built to manage the teams etc....I think the future of SC2 lies in foreign teams and their management.....Jason Lake alrdy said coL would pick up the entire MVP team....FXO Korea....EG picking up Puma then maybe replacing their crappy US Roster with an entire Korean team.....I hope Fnatic & SK Gaming get further involed as well...Hopefully mTw and mousesports as well.
I'd like to see TSL picked up and supported financially by a foreign team...I'd like to see SK throw their entire weight behind all of oGs instead of just MC and Nada...I'd like to Fnatic pick up a Korean team like zenex or IM or prime.
The only real korean teams that should be left untouched are SlayerS and Startale as they are the biggest and most funded it seems.
BW has Korean phone companies...
SC2 would have Foreign and corporate backed teams.
SK Gaming, Fnatic, mTw, EG, coL, Mouz, in the GSTL etc Would be awesome.
After publicly accusing a coach of Embezzling money from his own team, and then admitting they were wrong half a week later, I'm pretty shocked to hear sc2con isn't on the up and up
I'd like more information on sc2con. I don't understand what they do. Are they an organization that makes sure players are treated fairly? Are they an organization that hopes to get broadcasting rights for tournaments? Are they an organization that tries to impose guidelines on teams in the interest of creating a baseline for sponsors?
The only information I have seems to be scandalous. Organization is certainly a good thing for ESPORTS. In the foreigner scene it might disrupt the current status quo, but it'd probably be good in the long run. Is sc2con fundamentally broken or can some house cleaning make it a force for good? Does it need to be replaced entirely?
Everything about FXO's move here looks really good. I don't know enough about sc2con to put it in a proper context though.
Good call. I've been getting a very bad feeling from SC2Con lately. There have been too many stories of them having questionable conduct and behavior for it to all be exaggerated and lies. It's unfortunate that an organisation that could do so much for the community, has actually begun to hurt the community. Other teams should follow suit and drop out of the SC2Con.
I appreciate the transparency FXO BoSs. Keep up the good work
On August 14 2011 14:51 vertical101 wrote: im curious why zenex player stop streaming
On June 23 2011 20:15 dala wrote: In this interview with Dong Rae Gu he get a question about streaming.
What do you want to say to all those in your fan club that want you to stream again? They are very sad you know.
I am sorry, I can't begin streaming again. I belong to the SC2 Association (E/N: this) and they prefer progamers don't stream.
Why would the SC2 Association have an opinion on this issue?
damnit SC2con ruining esport.
This is pretty normal sort of thing for professional sports to ask. NBA players aren't allowed to play basketball publicly outside of their teams, because the value in the ticket to see an NBA game is the chance to see those players play, and it loses value if it's available for free elsewhere, etc. All perfectly normal.
perfectly normal? get your head out of the sand man. this isnt the NBA, dont use their rules and apply it to SC2. God forbid what you say is "perfectly normal" within SC2, all the pro players on professional teams couldn't stream without restrictions.
It's unclear how bad it would be. It would mean no free player streams, true. But it would mean much higher viewership and news coverage for tournaments, meaning bigger prizes, more sponsorship money, etc. That would mean teams were wealthier and competed more for top players. Players would lose stream income but gain salary/prize income in exchange. That might make the tournaments bigger events, more professional, etc.
But I wasn't advocating it. I'm just saying it's a normal way that professional sports go about converting the general interest in the sport to a stream of money they can use to actually support themselves, run leagues, etc. That said, even if you do think it's a good idea, this does not sound like the right way to do it. It sounds more like a monopolistic old boys club of broodwar vets withy unwritten rules and vague threats than a professional business model with transparency and fairly negotiated contracts.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
Yes they did things like set minimum practice hours and essentially code of conduct for players, among other things. They did many good things for esports in Korea, but some notable things they did bad were:
-Boycott Gomtv's BW league they made (ie tell players they couldn't play in it or they would have their progaming licenses revoked (which made them able to play in the MSL/OSL/Proleague)), essentially limiting the Korean tournament scene to OSL/MSL/Proleague and occasional special leagues like STX Master's, er hurting Esports.
-Defacing NaDa after he switched to SC2
-People don't like them as well because they are strict in their sometimes bureaucratic rules such as pausing without typing pp resulting in disqualifications
-Do the players get fined for not having a certain practice hours? About code of conduct, I guess they don't want someone like Idra or CombatEX. I'm fine with that. They tried to be manner and professional.
-Boycotting Gomtv's BW is fine to me if they're in competition with Gomtv. Different Organizations or companies competing against each other for TV market. That's just normal.
-Well, Nada moving to Gomtv and switching to SC2 would hurt their market share since they're an organization that depends on revenue to feed their employees. Giving Nada bad image is just normal. It happens between foreign players switching teams sometimes.
With all the drama surrounding SC2Con as of late, this isn't really surprising and it's probably a good thing that FXO decided to pull out as soon as possible.
On August 14 2011 15:10 Kallozar wrote: Well Koreans believe another KESPA should be built to manage the teams etc....I think the future of SC2 lies in foreign teams and their management.....Jason Lake alrdy said coL would pick up the entire MVP team....FXO Korea....EG picking up Puma then maybe replacing their crappy US Roster with an entire Korean team.....I hope Fnatic & SK Gaming get further involed as well...Hopefully mTw and mousesports as well.
I'd like to see TSL picked up and supported financially by a foreign team...I'd like to see SK throw their entire weight behind all of oGs instead of just MC and Nada...I'd like to Fnatic pick up a Korean team like zenex or IM or prime.
The only real korean teams that should be left untouched are SlayerS and Startale as they are the biggest and most funded it seems.
BW has Korean phone companies...
SC2 would have Foreign and corporate backed teams.
SK Gaming, Fnatic, mTw, EG, coL, Mouz, in the GSTL etc Would be awesome.
i dont know if oGs would just throw TL under the bus and be picked up by SK gaming, i only find a flaw in that. if anything im sure oGs would do some type of full partnership with TL and merge as one team
I don't mean to give an MBA lecture, but this is a typical problem when a company expands into a country without adjusting their business attitude. Eventually weird shit starts happening and you wonder wtf is going on.
Try to get a Korean partner that can help you with understanding the problem. He can be a lawyer, a friend, an expert in esports business or Korean business in general. Obviously that organization wants something from you because you've upset something for them. Perhaps you cost them a number of viewers for some weird reason, maybe you failed to bow in a specific way when you approached them, you never know. That's why you need to employ an expert (at least temporarily) to guide you through.
Here is a video that might be helpful to understand the depth of the concept:
I think that a worldwide SC2-organisation (ISCA, International StarCraft association) with the same interest as the players/viewers of tournaments would be wise. Some place to connect all different tournaments and organisations and a world ranking based upon players participation in different tournaments and results (like the ranking for tennis-players). Based on that you can then have like a "Grand Prix"-tournament with the top 32 of that world ranking etc etc...
I hope mafia-like organisations like the ones FXOBoSs describes soon is gone.
really get the feeling that Korean players are going to start wanting to be signed to a foreign team more and more
preventing players from streaming seems ridiculous to me when they are devoting so much of their life to SC2 and most are barely getting anything monetary back in return. streaming revenue is a viable alternate source of generating some income and it's been denied to Korean progamers by the SC2con.
They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches
Are you fucking shitting me? LOL. Well, that's something.
I thought SC2CON was a union made by the players, coaches, and managers. Where they try to establish guidelines on player working conditions, conflicts among teams, and stuff like that.
I think that is the intent, but this is what I imagine.
I suspect SC2Con, in actuality, is a small group of 'insiders' or greybeards from the Broodwar days comprised mainly of Team Managers and Coaches, that conspire together and force collusion and conformity between the teams. While they occasionally look out for player rights, they actually limit their opportunities and mobility, enforce working conditions only tolerable in Asian countries, and in general, have no formal process for selecting leaders or making decision.
FXOBoss or anyone else in the know: is this a fair assumption or completely off-base?
If it's right, then I guess these Broodwar guys want to kill SC2; but doing this won't help the players as they represent the players themselves. This would also hurt GomTV. I guess GomTV should do something about this organization.
Some teams are part of it, some teams are not part of it (notably slayers, and now fxo). If anyone can join and leave with no repercussions, what sort of power does this organization hold over anyone? if they dont like something the team can just quit...the it seems like it's a pretty irrelevant organization, or atleast heading towards it.
On August 14 2011 15:14 Reasonable wrote: I don't mean to give an MBA lecture, but this is a typical problem when a company expands into a country without adjusting their business attitude. Eventually weird shit starts happening and you wonder wtf is going on.
Try to get a Korean partner that can help you with understanding the problem. He can be a lawyer, a friend, an expert in esports business or Korean business in general. Obviously that organization wants something from you because you've upset something for them. Perhaps you cost them a number of viewers for some weird reason, maybe you failed to bow in a specific way when you approached them, you never know. That's why you need to employ an expert (at least temporarily) to guide you through.
On August 14 2011 15:14 Reasonable wrote: I don't mean to give an MBA lecture, but this is a typical problem when a company expands into a country without adjusting their business attitude. Eventually weird shit starts happening and you wonder wtf is going on.
Try to get a Korean partner that can help you with understanding the problem. He can be a lawyer, a friend, an expert in esports business or Korean business in general. Obviously that organization wants something from you because you've upset something for them. Perhaps you cost them a number of viewers for some weird reason, maybe you failed to bow in a specific way when you approached them, you never know. That's why you need to employ an expert (at least temporarily) to guide you through.
On August 14 2011 15:14 Reasonable wrote: I don't mean to give an MBA lecture, but this is a typical problem when a company expands into a country without adjusting their business attitude. Eventually weird shit starts happening and you wonder wtf is going on.
Try to get a Korean partner that can help you with understanding the problem. He can be a lawyer, a friend, an expert in esports business or Korean business in general. Obviously that organization wants something from you because you've upset something for them. Perhaps you cost them a number of viewers for some weird reason, maybe you failed to bow in a specific way when you approached them, you never know. That's why you need to employ an expert (at least temporarily) to guide you through.
Here is a video that might be helpful to understand the depth of the concept: + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOPuvTMndIs
Didn't Boss say Choya was the one getting the calls, and they refused to speak to the "ignorant outsider"?
On August 14 2011 15:10 Kallozar wrote: Well Koreans believe another KESPA should be built to manage the teams etc....I think the future of SC2 lies in foreign teams and their management.....Jason Lake alrdy said coL would pick up the entire MVP team....FXO Korea....EG picking up Puma then maybe replacing their crappy US Roster with an entire Korean team.....I hope Fnatic & SK Gaming get further involed as well...Hopefully mTw and mousesports as well.
I'd like to see TSL picked up and supported financially by a foreign team...I'd like to see SK throw their entire weight behind all of oGs instead of just MC and Nada...I'd like to Fnatic pick up a Korean team like zenex or IM or prime.
The only real korean teams that should be left untouched are SlayerS and Startale as they are the biggest and most funded it seems.
BW has Korean phone companies...
SC2 would have Foreign and corporate backed teams.
SK Gaming, Fnatic, mTw, EG, coL, Mouz, in the GSTL etc Would be awesome.
i dont know if oGs would just throw TL under the bus and be picked up by SK gaming, i only find a flaw in that. if anything im sure oGs would do some type of full partnership with TL and merge as one team
Yeah or a full merge with Liquid. But It would be amazing to see Foreign teams picking up full Korean teams.
I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
Funny thing is, I also thought from the way FXOBoSs acted in interviews, that he didn't take shit from no one and he really seemed to care about his players. Clearly the community here on TL don't know the whole story of why they left SC2Con but I would be willing to wager that it was for good reason(s).
On August 14 2011 15:19 Sawamura wrote: I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
All i can say is, thank God for people like FXOboss, who apparently has enough of a spine to stand up against these guys when the other korean teams can't / won't.
Much props, and here's hoping it all works out. When i first heard of sc2con, i thought it was going to be a good thing, looking out for players etc. I didn't realize they would immediately throw themselves into a situation where they blackmail and extort all the member teams / players.
Thanks again boss, for standing up for what's right
On August 14 2011 15:19 Sawamura wrote: I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
I'm curious if this sc2con was affiliated with Startales changing their mcdonald's logo to the Carl's Jr logo. I also think about how many Korean players had their names changed as of late. Then my last thought with the growth of tournaments in NA and EU, does GSL/Gom really matter to those in the west?
Let the KR's deal with KR organizations, don't think it will stop people from playing.
On August 14 2011 15:19 Sawamura wrote: I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
What the F, are you retarded?
On August 14 2011 14:04 3xiLe wrote: More drama. It seems there has been a lot of new drama in the last few months. I hope the best for all of you people, and that's disgusting that they'd call you up and threaten you. It really does look like, which you mentioned, it may become KesPA 2.0
Actually, now I think about it, it almost reminds me of Animal Farm, ha. When it was briefly mentioned at the beginning of GSL and whatever, it was almost like "NO WE'RE NOT KESPA, YES WE'RE NOT KESPA, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BECOME KESPA", now it looks like they're the pigs.
Hah. Fans don't give a shit about the governing organizations. They are only a means to protect players. If word leaks that you are not protecting players then you instantly become irrelevant.
Bye SC2con. It's been fun. Hello next ambiguously named organization!
On August 14 2011 15:19 Sawamura wrote: I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
Even though every drama-related story lately has changed drastically (sometimes more than once) when the other side is revealed, I would push all my chips in for Boss this time around. After all the strangeness regarding business and everything lately I still have maximum faith in him.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
I don't know the whole story but KeSPA didn't seem THAT bad to me. They just disqualified players for typing anything other than "gg" and "pp" and once a guy typed "ppp" because his monitor died, and he got disqualified and the forums went wild.
I think they changed the rule after that, but at the time they were just enforcing their own written rules.
They also told the Broodwar teams to stop participating in GSL (Broodwar) as well because they didn't want competition for the TV channels.
I think I can stand with having rule to type "gg" and "pp" and stuff like that because they want it to have a professional look on TV (I remember QXC typed a whole sentence when he wanted to pause because he didn't know the rule, guess they don't want things like this on TV), but disqualifying is a little bit too far.
If they're a different organization to GSL(Broodwar) and competing for audience, then there's nothing wrong with banning players from GSL from competing in their league, right? So, why is there so much bad talk about Kespa on TL forum but I've never seen anyone explain why they're bad
You think it should be OK for an organization to say that you CAN'T play in another league if you want to play in ours?!?! That's like GSL and GSTL telling all their players they are not allowed to go to dream hack, NASL, or play in IPL if they want to be part of GSL. It's basically a monopoly. And when you monopolize, crazy shit goes down.
I think this case is different. Kespa and Gomtv case is more like between Google and Yahoo competing for search engine market share. GSL working with foreign tournaments will result in increase revenue for both sides as we've seen on the collaboration between Gomtv and MLG. But, if Kespa and Gomtv are in competition for a fix amount of audience, one of them would come out to be the loser and the other would be a winner.
On August 14 2011 14:33 Whynaut wrote: Can we wait for both sides of this story, please, before passing judgment?
Also, I hope this doesn't lead to FXO players being banned from GSL/GSTL. That would be the worst case scenario I can see as a possible outcome.
Normally I would be in full agreement with you but this is too much.
It seems that SC2Con keeps finding itself in these kinds of situations, and several different people who are not aligned with each other are coming out saying similar things.
Threatening? Forcing a team to change it's logo, or else, "X will happen?" I'm speechless. I thought they seemed pushy from what I gathered in the NASL situation, but this is on a level I wasn't expecting.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
Yes they did things like set minimum practice hours and essentially code of conduct for players, among other things. They did many good things for esports in Korea, but some notable things they did bad were:
-Boycott Gomtv's BW league they made (ie tell players they couldn't play in it or they would have their progaming licenses revoked (which made them able to play in the MSL/OSL/Proleague)), essentially limiting the Korean tournament scene to OSL/MSL/Proleague and occasional special leagues like STX Master's, er hurting Esports.
-Defacing NaDa after he switched to SC2
-People don't like them as well because they are strict in their sometimes bureaucratic rules such as pausing without typing pp resulting in disqualifications
-Do the players get fined for not having a certain practice hours? About code of conduct, I guess they don't want someone like Idra or CombatEX. I'm fine with that. They tried to be manner and professional.
-Boycotting Gomtv's BW is fine to me if they're in competition with Gomtv. Different Organizations or companies competing against each other for TV market. That's just normal.
-Well, Nada moving to Gomtv and switching to SC2 would hurt their market share since they're an organization that depends on revenue to feed their employees. Giving Nada bad image is just normal. It happens between foreign players switching teams sometimes.
Being an asshole isnt "normal".
Lol, yes it is. Most people trying to have a dominant and powerful business tend to be selfish assholes.
On August 14 2011 15:20 ensign_lee wrote: WTF, why does all the drama lately surround this stupid sc2con.
The entire debacle with TSL and Coach Lee. The unreasonable demands and subsequent rapid withdrawal of korean players from the NASL. And now this.
...wtf...why do people associate with this association.
I think it all started with EG snatching up Puma and Coach Lee raging and going to sc2con (remember when he said there should be Kespa 2.0 for SC2?) and telling em foreigner teams are not to be trusted business wise O_o. that's my theory anyway.
On August 14 2011 14:32 TDN3 wrote: Can anyone explain to me what exactly Kespa did? I didn't follow Broodwar, so I have no idea what happened. I heard that they forced players to practice days and night and stuff like that. What happens if they don't follow and practice 12hr/day but still do good? Do they still get kicked out? Do they take away players earnings? How come people are so scared about them.
I thought every sport organization has some kind of control over players and can fine them if they want. For example, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all fine their players certain amount of money if they say something that doesn't help the organization's image. I've seen this multiple times. My guess is that Kespa does the same thing. To what extend to they control the players? Kespa doesn't just control SC players right? They're an organization that control the general esport in Korea, including other games?
Yes they did things like set minimum practice hours and essentially code of conduct for players, among other things. They did many good things for esports in Korea, but some notable things they did bad were:
-Boycott Gomtv's BW league they made (ie tell players they couldn't play in it or they would have their progaming licenses revoked (which made them able to play in the MSL/OSL/Proleague)), essentially limiting the Korean tournament scene to OSL/MSL/Proleague and occasional special leagues like STX Master's, er hurting Esports.
-Defacing NaDa after he switched to SC2
-People don't like them as well because they are strict in their sometimes bureaucratic rules such as pausing without typing pp resulting in disqualifications
-Do the players get fined for not having a certain practice hours? About code of conduct, I guess they don't want someone like Idra or CombatEX. I'm fine with that. They tried to be manner and professional.
-Boycotting Gomtv's BW is fine to me if they're in competition with Gomtv. Different Organizations or companies competing against each other for TV market. That's just normal.
-Well, Nada moving to Gomtv and switching to SC2 would hurt their market share since they're an organization that depends on revenue to feed their employees. Giving Nada bad image is just normal. It happens between foreign players switching teams sometimes.
Being an asshole isnt "normal".
I'm curious about minimum practice hours as well.
The second point seems reasonable, while I'd agree with you about the last point (if it actually happened)
It seems to me there's a part of the Korean sc2 community which wants to segregate itself from the foreign(everyone else) community... GSL is really excited to get more foreign attention but the teams themselves as a whole, not specific players, are not happy with the way things are going.
It really sucks to see the influx of posts like this. First NASL now FXO is having issues, i mean nobody wins when everyone acts like children.
I play starcraft 2, because i love the game. Why cant big events be about the love of the game, and less about what the players look like....... Racism comes in all shapes and sizes my friends...
Definetely seems like you guys made the right choice. FXO is too big to be bossed around by anyone. FXO and their players should have control over what FXO does, not any other organization.
SlayerS is the only team that hasn't joined SC2con (yet, or never). I guess BoxeR and Jessica have foreseen what could go wrong, or at least have endless 'issues' with a group like this. I hereby hail the wisdom of the Emperor!
Read through the thread, was wondering if we as the community could get some actual concrete facts on what specifically SC2Con is. As someone who follows the SC2 scene quite closely and also has a fairly good grasp on business/politics I find myself totally confused by this entire situation. If you could even update the OP with information about SC2con I'm sure many would be appreciative.
I have always had the understanding the SC2Con was started and ran by the coaches/managers of the main teams in the Korean SC2 scene (people like Choya, TheWind, etc. ), but major issues have indicated this isn't quite the case. Who runs this organization? And if teams can simply opt out of it and still compete in major Korean events then what is even the point of it? Do they actually work in conjunction with GomTV? Any light that could be shed on the subject would be amazing, because the past few days we have heard a ton of controversy surrounding SC2Con (TSL incident, NASL incident, and now this ) and I don't think people know exactly what to picture when thinking about/discussing these matters.
So first they slander TSL and their coach's name without knowing all the facts and now this. This is no Kespa. Kespa was a major player in facilitating e-sports in Korea. SC2Con is too self serving to do this for SC2.
It seems that if something is not done soon Korea will risk alienating themselves from the foreign community and maybe even more players with them. I know SC is a matter of pride in Korea, but it sounds more and more like they will not be willing to accept that maybe the scene is moving away from them.
Im actually pissed that Korea is going this way right now... Its unbelieveable to think that they think that they can push around the foreigners and make them do as they please... Its sick because I feel like a good chunk of the reason the SC2 scene in Korea is still alive is because of foreign intrest... Its a friggen shame
So anyone else wondering about the whole FruitDealer and Tester situation? In my opinion their 'coming out with the truth' about how they were lying the whole time sounded really forced to me and now with this new info who knows, maybe SC2CON was blackmailing or threatening them too? Really hard to develop trust when so much shady stuff is going on behind closed doors.
Same reason Slayers team is not part of SC2con either. This will NOT affect GSL & GSTL. So I say let them run the circus. It'll be good while it lasts.
Just to get this clear, the problem is with ONE guy who's currently (formerly by now?) representing sc2con, and the rest of the organization (coaches, players, managers) is a-okay? Can't the coaches just kick this guy out given the evidence of what's been going on?
On August 14 2011 15:31 JLew wrote: Read through the thread, was wondering if we as the community could get some actual concrete facts on what specifically SC2Con is. As someone who follows the SC2 scene quite closely and also has a fairly good grasp on business/politics I find myself totally confused by this entire situation. If you could even update the OP with information about SC2con I'm sure many would be appreciative.
I have always had the understanding the SC2Con was started and ran by the coaches/managers of the main teams in the Korean SC2 scene (people like Choya, TheWind, etc. ), but major issues have indicated this isn't quite the case. Who runs this organization? And if teams can simply opt out of it and still compete in major Korean events then what is even the point of it? Do they actually work in conjunction with GomTV? Any light that could be shed on the subject would be amazing, because the past few days we have heard a ton of controversy surrounding SC2Con (TSL incident, NASL incident, and now this ) and I don't think people know exactly what to picture when thinking about/discussing these matters.
I asked the same question in the other thread.
No one can give a concrete answer about SC2Con, it's leadership, it's process, it's responsibilities or it's agenda. That's the problem.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con. That's fine and it sounds like it was the best course of action for FXO.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
Agree, seen I've heard that in Korean culture people are really respectful and that crime is rare in Korea. It's hard to believe that people from such culture would threaten you like some mafia gangs for no reason.
There are good and bad people, no matter where you're from. You seriously think every Korean is as humble as the pro sc2 players? You're making an extremely stupid assumption and such an idea never has existed and never will.
I don't assume every Korean is a good person, but assuming an organization consisting of experience people. I'm assuming the chance that this group of experience people being evil and disrespectful is just ridiculous.
...and you know what's more stupid than an "extremely stupid assumption"? It's the person that calls others stupid.
If the leader of this organization can't even talk to FXOBoss himself it's really fucken sad.
Sc2con seems to have developed into some retards with no big-picture view and with no power trying to make something out of nothing.
I really wish you could divulge more details about exact threats etc. etc. FXOboss, or atleast for Choya to make a statement in Korean (if it hasn't already happened I'm not too well informed).
But what can really be expected...does any memeber of Sc2con who is actually in charge of making their stupid decisions have any real business experience? Probably not.
Good on FXO to shade some light on what seems like a rather shady association, given the amount of controversy that has recently erupted. All the best in your endeavours!
On August 14 2011 15:36 FXOpen wrote: sc2con is a community organisation of pro teams. In order to help each other grow. They are basically helping each other in business.. And they do.
Our problem is with 1 person. Whom now I am in contact with.
Managed to get their attention, huh? :-p I say bravo for standing up to them -- best of luck in getting things sorted out and hopefully improving the situation over there.
We've seen of late how players and teams have suffered in silence during some pretty shady Korean situations (I recall there was even an instance of sexual harassment involving a team in GSL 1 or 2, the whole TSL team issue, the EG and Puma issue with player not being contracted or paid).
When good people step up and say they won't be a part of a shady organization, it helps others who are fearful to do so as well.
The more transparency and openness in the SC2 economy the less the players will be getting screwed.
I already thought the excuse they gave for the NASL withdrawal was complete bullshit. After hearing this, I've gone from not being fond of them to flat out disliking them. Even KESPA only slightly irks me, I don't flat out dislike them. Sad to see them alienating themselves...
On August 14 2011 15:36 FXOpen wrote: sc2con is a community organisation of pro teams. In order to help each other grow. They are basically helping each other in business.. And they do.
Our problem is with 1 person. Whom now I am in contact with.
On August 14 2011 15:03 Zlasher wrote: And slowly but surely the whole EG vs Korea drama becomes slightly more balanced.
Oh? Did sc2con have something to do with the Puma incident, or is this just an odd generalization about all Koreans? o_O
Both?? I would think that since Koreans (sc2con) pride themselves as the nation with the most abundant nerds in the world, (thus the term foreigners, non-foreigners), when the non-foreigners such as Puma choose to stay in foreigners team such as EG, the terms really start to get mixed up and that's what they don't want to see. SC2con is simply trying to maintain a monopoly over something that doesn't exist at all.
The fact is that NA is simply a bit behind in e-sport scenes and now it's catching up. The terms foreigner and non-foreigner should never be used at all. There is no real sports or games out there that uses this term, except for Starcraft. I always wonder, if Koreans win fifa world-cup, even just for once, will they start calling others Foreigners as well? lol
So much drama surrounding such a young sport. You'd think there would be more unity, good manners, and favors between respective parties. SC2 will not have an easy time growing if there is this much drama surrounding players, teams, and organizations. How do you think sponsors and organizers will feel about investing money into Starcraft 2 if this ridiculousness keeps occurring?
It's not that big of a surprise that the organization would succumb to trying to control everything. You know what they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I think they were on the right track with having representatives from every team being part of the organization, like the UN. But from the way it sounds, there are a few people who are controlling it despite what the members say, and that's not the way it should be. All members should have equal say in the matters, and until that happens it will just be another KeSPA.
They read the rules to the coaches before GTSL matches
Are you fucking shitting me? LOL. Well, that's something.
I thought SC2CON was a union made by the players, coaches, and managers. Where they try to establish guidelines on player working conditions, conflicts among teams, and stuff like that.
I think that is the intent, but this is what I imagine.
I suspect SC2Con, in actuality, is a small group of 'insiders' or greybeards from the Broodwar days comprised mainly of Team Managers and Coaches, that conspire together and force collusion and conformity between the teams. While they occasionally look out for player rights, they actually limit their opportunities and mobility, enforce working conditions only tolerable in Asian countries, and in general, have no formal process for selecting leaders or making decision.
FXOBoss or anyone else in the know: is this a fair assumption or completely off-base?
If it's right, then I guess these Broodwar guys want to kill SC2; but doing this won't help the players as they represent the players themselves. This would also hurt GomTV. I guess GomTV should do something about this organization.
No. If it's right, then these experienced managers, coaches and team sponsors would probably want to monopolize the Korean scene (perhaps not as much as KeSPA, but still a lot).
They work with SC2 - why would they want to destroy their own livelihood?
this is just absurd FXO would do some backstabbing like this, we have yet to have official words from SC2CON, and yet ppl already jumping on the band wagon.
ask yourself, is the drama good for e-sport? what will this bring to our blossoming dreams, what is the POINT????
On August 14 2011 15:19 Sawamura wrote: I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
He doesn't need to come clean just because you would like to believe that he might be shady. He's making an announcement - and he's giving reasons behind the decisions made during that announcement. He's not painting any picture here.
So glad that there is an individual such as FXOBoSs to deliver some transparency to the situation. I'm glad to see that he has the experience to see through a hollow threat and call the bluff.
It seems to me that Korea is defty afraid of losing their dominance on the Starcraft name. They were still so deep into Brood Wars when Starcraft 2 started and never managed to get a stranglehold on the market. Now their market share in SC2 is nowhere close to their BW marketshare. You can't really blame them though. So many people have made this their career, sacrificing education and prime years of their life to get a chance at making Starcraft their career.
On August 14 2011 15:41 sesmc wrote: this is just absurd FXO would do some backstabbing like this, we have yet to have official words from SC2CON, and yet ppl already jumping on the band wagon.
ask yourself, is the drama good for e-sport? what will this bring to our blossoming dreams, what is the POINT????
flame on~
FXO is backstabbing for bringing to public that the representative of SC2CON makes threats and harrass choyafou in attempt to force FXO to do what he wants?
This kind of shit have to come to the public light, the worst possible thing for ESPORTS is if power-tripping fools like that gets away with bullshit.
They don't trust you. They see your future. They know your power will be too strong to control... You must break through the fog of lies the SC2Con have created around you. But now... now they won't even get any control over you at all...
On August 14 2011 15:41 sesmc wrote: this is just absurd FXO would do some backstabbing like this, we have yet to have official words from SC2CON, and yet ppl already jumping on the band wagon.
ask yourself, is the drama good for e-sport? what will this bring to our blossoming dreams, what is the POINT????
flame on~
Well its more along the lines of, since the whole TSL FD and Tester thing where SCcon wanted TSL out and then immediately backpeddled on it, no one knows who they are or what they are doing and why they are doing it.
Even if SC2con comes with a reasonable response. What are we supposed to think?
On August 14 2011 15:36 FXOpen wrote: sc2con is a community organisation of pro teams. In order to help each other grow. They are basically helping each other in business.. And they do.
Our problem is with 1 person. Whom now I am in contact with.
I urge everyone to read the bolded sentence. And then read it again.
On August 14 2011 15:41 sesmc wrote: this is just absurd FXO would do some backstabbing like this, we have yet to have official words from SC2CON, and yet ppl already jumping on the band wagon.
ask yourself, is the drama good for e-sport? what will this bring to our blossoming dreams, what is the POINT????
flame on~
You can't be serious.
Well I for one, want stuff like this out in the public. It seems that if SC2Con is getting flamed, it's rightfully earned at this point.
I had no reason to believe NASL was lying, and I have even less reason to believe FXO is lying. They may be involved in distinct issues with SC2Con, but SC2Con seems to be the common denominator.
On August 14 2011 15:44 Primadog wrote: This kind of shit have to come to the public light, the worst possible thing for ESPORTS is if power-tripping fools like that gets away with bullshit.
So true. The sooner we uncover and get rid of it, the sooner we can get something done right.
Either way, nice going FXO. I wouldn't be surprised if FXO once again took matters into their own hands and laid the foundations for a new, solid, organization. But I guess it'd be kind of lulzy to go around expecting them to shoulder and solve a problem the Korean eSports scene have had ever since the days of BW.
On August 14 2011 15:39 Thorrissey wrote: So much drama surrounding such a young sport. You'd think there would be more unity, good manners, and favors between respective parties. SC2 will not have an easy time growing if there is this much drama surrounding players, teams, and organizations. How do you think sponsors and organizers will feel about investing money into Starcraft 2 if this ridiculousness keeps occurring?
Well, I think a larger part of that drama IS because it is a young sport. There is very little consolidation right now, it seems like a gold rush at the moment. There is massive expansion in terms of popularity and sponsor interest, but it seems from the business side of things many of these teams or organizations have no fucking clue what they are doing and no business model (or at least not a sustainable one), especially in korea.
To make matters worse you have something that has never occurred in any other sport to my knowledge; the majority of the talent is located in a place where the majority of the interest and big dollar sponsors are not. This all makes for a somewhat chaotic situation; hopefully it well consolidate and settle down within the next year or two.
While you bring up a valid argument, you also have to realize FXO sorta did just walk into Korea and acquire a team without a deeper background understanding.
Seems like SC2con is more of a gentleman's agreement of accepted behaviours amongst SC2 teams. It's clear that they don't any legal or official power. Not joining (SlayerS) or even outright leaving SC2Con (TSL, FXO) don't appear to have too much a detrimental impact on teams. Moreover it does not bar participation into the GSL/GSTL as only GOM can determine whether individual players are banned from participation (see Saviour match fixing scandal).
From what I've seen they don't even do that great of a job in promoting the interests of the teams and players. In serving as an arbitrator/mediator between TSL and Fruitdealer&Killer they completely failed to interrogate the veracity of testimony and of easily available financial documents. Promotional events appear to be more the work of Mr. Chae and Gom rather than anything obviously put together by SC2Con (See Boxer/Yellow, Project A, Code A qualifier w/ Wolf, Doa, and John). They don't even serve to facilitate communication between the teams and other foreign leagues, which is a task I feel they should do.
I'm with the other people in this thread as being uncertain as to what they actually do or even if they are absolutely necessary. FXO and SlayerS feel as if they'd do better not being under this organization, and that's fine. The representative of SC2Con obviously failed at his job of mediation and facilitating communication. Some of the more hyperbolic statements in this thread need to be toned down, however. Team rivalries are fun and all but eSports doesn't need drama of that magnitude right now. eSports needs to be seen as stable and thriving.
Good Job FXO!!! Tell them whose boss :D Kinda funny that most sc2 teams/players or GOM doesn't want anything involve with KESPA but SC2con is becoming like one. It's like dictatorship and they want to run things their way. It's sad seeing how Sc2 is growing but the drama is ruining the fun in it. FXO fighting, you gain my respect for stepping in.
If the end result of this is that this Juneo person steps down or is 'fired' as head of SC2Com, that will mean that within the space of 1 week, 2 different people have had to 'step down' as the leader. Even if the rest of the committee are stand up guys, what does that say?
Hey Boss, with your comment about how what they are doing won't work on a global scale, do you think the fact that you are not a Korean team is why you have been given so much trouble? Are they having a difficult time realizing how this is a global game?
Hopefully you see this and thanks in advance if you do!
Btw: It's silly to say the problem lies with one person. If an organization lets one idiot fuck shit up then it's their problem too. So either they all collectively have a problem, or 1 man has a problem and the rest of them have an even bigger sheep problem.
Why would you wanna be in that SC2con anyway? What benefit do you have from it? If no benefit and you have to nod your head to w/e they said so why not just leave and do what you want.
On August 14 2011 15:59 Rekrul wrote: Btw: It's silly to say the problem lies with one person. If an organization lets one idiot fuck shit up then it's their problem too. So either they all collectively have a problem, or 1 man has a problem and the rest of them have an even bigger sheep problem.
Whilst I agree, because he is a representitive of the organisation. It has come to my quick attention, that alot of people in sc2con were not aware.
On August 14 2011 15:58 highsis wrote: Kespa season 2?
I don't understand why SC2 con has to intervene and impose all stupid rules on GSL. EX. not being able to change a race for one season.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure GOM can do whatever the fuck they want as far as GSL rules, if they agree to some things SC2Con wants it is because GOM wants to agree to them, not because they are forced to.
From what I've seen of sc2con, they are a totally unnecessary organization that's just trying to grab power over the Korean SC2 scene. Can't fathom why they even exist.
StarCraft 2 association aims to be an official association approved by Blizzard, and it will deal with the following: Protection of rights for the gamers and teams, operations of StarCraft 2 team's business-league sponsor, arbitrator for when there is an issue between a gamer and a team, and furthering the popularity of StarCraft 2 leagues that are linked with Blizzard-GomTV (editor's note: this most likely means, leagues that opened legit with permission from them).
Does forcing FXO to change their name to FXO Korea further any of the following? Protection of rights : Nope. Relation with sponsors : ? Arbitrator between gamer / team : Nope. Furthering popularity : Nope.
Does mandating Korea flags on jerseys do any of the following? Protection of rights : Nope. Relation with sponsors : ? Arbitrator between gamer / team : Nope. Furthering popularity : Nope.
So is it the sponsors? Or is sc2con just a powerhungry monster?
On August 14 2011 15:59 Rekrul wrote: Btw: It's silly to say the problem lies with one person. If an organization lets one idiot fuck shit up then it's their problem too. So either they all collectively have a problem, or 1 man has a problem and the rest of them have an even bigger sheep problem.
Whilst I agree, because he is a representitive of the organisation. It has come to my quick attention, that alot of people in sc2con were not aware.
Not aware of what? The entire needless stream of drama and horrible business decisions coming out of sc2con for like weeks straight now?
On August 14 2011 16:04 FXOpen wrote: My own situation is all I talk about pat.
Yeah that is what I figured, still in my personal opinion does not correct other problems they have had. I'm on board with Rekrul on this. Thanks for clearing it up .
FXO I believe in you! I am not the one to judge on sc2con so I don't want to comment on either way. If he is dealing with one person and rest doesnt know, then I can't judge yet.
Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
On August 14 2011 15:58 highsis wrote: Kespa season 2?
I don't understand why SC2 con has to intervene and impose all stupid rules on GSL. EX. not being able to change a race for one season.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure GOM can do whatever the fuck they want as far as GSL rules, if they agree to some things SC2Con wants it is because GOM wants to agree to them, not because they are forced to.
As far as SC2 in Korea is concerned the only people above GOM (license holder for all SC2 broadcasts/major tournaments) is Blizzard itself.
While i understand most of the concerns, i don't understand why pro gamers complain about getting phone calls at 12am .. i mean 8 am would be rude for any pro, but this is just fair ..
On August 14 2011 15:59 Rekrul wrote: Btw: It's silly to say the problem lies with one person. If an organization lets one idiot fuck shit up then it's their problem too. So either they all collectively have a problem, or 1 man has a problem and the rest of them have an even bigger sheep problem.
Whilst I agree, because he is a representitive of the organisation. It has come to my quick attention, that alot of people in sc2con were not aware.
Not aware of what? The entire needless stream of drama and horrible business decisions coming out of sc2con for like weeks straight now?
I think he meant, "The other members weren't aware this one guy was acting particularly douche-y by refusing to deal with owner/boss of one of the association's teams."
On August 14 2011 16:05 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
Good luck! I'm hoping we hear good news, or more good news than bad news.
On August 14 2011 16:05 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
Best of luck, hopefully changes come from this meeting!
On August 14 2011 16:05 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
Good hunting. Hopefully they are able to clarify their policy positions and the future disposition of this individual representative to your satisfaction.
On August 14 2011 16:05 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
On August 14 2011 16:05 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
Just make sure it is in a public area with witnesses. I kid I kid... good luck, you have been a great example of how to do things right so far, I have no doubt you will continue to be.
On August 14 2011 16:05 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
Dude, just leave the association man, it doesn't sound like it's worth the headache. Unless they bowl you over or give you a real reason to stick with them.
On August 14 2011 15:59 tuho12345 wrote: Why would you wanna be in that SC2con anyway? What benefit do you have from it? If no benefit and you have to nod your head to w/e they said so why not just leave and do what you want.
I think their power is a product of their culture. Korea is one of many collectivist countries, and thus, as a result, it is easy for organizations to swoop in and take hold without any true legal power, as long as they make it bad and "shameful" to dissent.
On August 14 2011 16:05 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
Dude, just leave the association man, it doesn't sound like it's worth the headache. Unless they bowl you over or give you a real reason to stick with them.
I think he is hoping that the association is going to turn around and become what it was originally about, protecting the players. It would be beneficial for all if this association were to turn good rather than have it fall apart and have to start a new one.
On August 14 2011 16:05 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys, I am going to edit my front page post now. As I now will be having a meeting with sc2con in seoul........
I will then bring up the full story after this meeting. Just so that no irreversable damage is done. Although I am not holding my breathe on a positive outcome. I feel that I will summarize my post to be plain and simple and note that I will be attending a meeting in Korea.
Dude, just leave the association man, it doesn't sound like it's worth the headache. Unless they bowl you over or give you a real reason to stick with them.
I think he is hoping that the association is going to turn around and become what it was originally about, protecting the players. It would be beneficial for all if this association were to turn good rather than have it fall apart and have to start a new one.
It sounds like they need entirely new management, to be frank.
I look forward to an update of this situation. It is sad when an organization meant to inspire camaraderie between teams ends up trying to force them to do things that they don't want to do "for the sake of the organization." FXO has been a leader of western interests in the Korean scene and I hope that a mutual agreement can be reached.
On August 14 2011 15:46 theBizness wrote: It's always a race to put out one side of the story first. We'll see.
Agree with this, especially since they've agreed to another meeting, the dude apparently has a good reputation, and we've only heard one side of the story. Not saying that what Boss described would be inexcusable but alot of people jumped on the Puma situation when it turned out to be completely different and I don't want to make the same mistake twice.
So say sc2con does become evil and messes everything up. Can a new organization be founded with impacting gsl? I'm curious if sc2con controls for lack of a better word because i know sc2con decides who can compete and etc. Basically my question is what is sc2con and gsl's relationship and can gsl run without sc2con?
The power of Team Liquid. Serious miscommunication error possibly leading to the break up of a major gaming association got you down? Team Liquid will jump all over that and blow it up in 17 pages or less. If your situation is not corrected or horrifically blown out of proportion, you will get a 100% refund of you time wasted in the form of commemorative E-SPORT-BUCKS.
EDIT: BELOW IS BASED ON ONE PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF SC2CON AND IS NOT A REPRESENTATION OF THE KOREAN MANAGERS OR PLAYERS. HOWEVER SINCE THE ACTION WAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF SC2CON, I HAVE GENERALISED
After my initial post. I have receieved alot of communication with the Korean community, including the person with whom FXO have had a huge problem with.
Although the acts that I perceived as threats and blackmail are still being perceived as such I have been requested to give a chance to the organisation, until we meet in Korea in September.
After this organisation has met. I will act with the same transparency as I have in the initial post that was posted here.
Everything that happens, plus a detailed explanation of what will happen will be posted here. Which will document the entire thing for public knowledge.
I hope I haven't upset anyone by removing this post, but I feel its best for business to take the meeting first.
Thanks for the support guys!
Peace
FXOBoSs
Looks like sometimes to get payed attention to you just have to kick down the door, huh? Good luck with the meeting; no matter the outcome you've got a fan in me. FXO Fighting!
EDIT: spoiler-tagged the quote because it's big. >.>
On August 14 2011 16:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The power of Team Liquid. Serious miscommunication error possibly leading to the break up of a major gaming association got you down? Team Liquid will jump all over that and blow it up in 17 pages or less. If your situation is not corrected or horrifically blown out of proportion, you will get a 100% refund of you time wasted in the form of commemorative E-SPORT-BUCKS.
Now if only we could get all the NASL players back on board -.-
On August 14 2011 16:14 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The power of Team Liquid. Serious miscommunication error possibly leading to the break up of a major gaming association got you down? Team Liquid will jump all over that and blow it up in 17 pages or less. If your situation is not corrected or horrifically blown out of proportion, you will get a 100% refund of you time wasted in the form of commemorative E-SPORT-BUCKS.
Now if only we could get all the NASL players back on board -.-
The players are interested I'm sure, it's their managers that are the problem.
So much unnecessary politics. They should try to improve the level of events, make it comfortable for all players in korea and support the public SC2 scene. The topics of discussion are ridiculous. Disband SC2CON until the managers reach a mature level.
On August 14 2011 14:05 DarkDolphin wrote: You gotta do what you gotta do, Starcraft 2 is no longer "Just Korea" , if that was the case we would be run by the Evil Empire ( Kespa ) Good Job FXO.
-SC2CON = Evil Empire.
-FXO = Rebel Alliance :D
- On a more serious note, i believe the International teams, FXO, TL;, EG dignitas etc etc, Should start thinking of creating an organization, SC2CON / KESPA are not acceptable SC2 is not just Korea, we are no longer in Broodwar , in the times where the Evil Empire ruled the Kuprulu Sector.
-however something like SC2CON is needed but should not be exclusive or just Korea, such thing is unacceptable, GJ FXOBOSS. :D
-PS. : I officially declare SC2CON "EVIL EMPIRE" from now on.
so that makes Boss, Admiral Ackbar! Its a trap FXO style
On August 14 2011 14:01 FXOpen wrote: EDIT: BELOW IS BASED ON ONE PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF SC2CON AND IS NOT A REPRESENTATION OF THE KOREAN MANAGERS OR PLAYERS. HOWEVER SINCE THE ACTION WAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF SC2CON, I HAVE GENERALISED
After my initial post. I have receieved alot of communication with the Korean community, including the person with whom FXO have had a huge problem with.
Although the acts that I perceived as threats and blackmail are still being perceived as such I have been requested to give a chance to the organisation, until we meet in Korea in September.
After this organisation has met. I will act with the same transparency as I have in the initial post that was posted here.
Everything that happens, plus a detailed explanation of what will happen will be posted here. Which will document the entire thing for public knowledge.
I hope I haven't upset anyone by removing this post, but I feel its best for business to take the meeting first.
Thanks for the support guys!
Peace
FXOBoSs
Looks like sometimes to get payed attention to you just have to kick down the door, huh? Good luck with the meeting; no matter the outcome you've got a fan in me. FXO Fighting!
Looks like it. Sometimes you have hold people's feet to the fire to get stuff started and resolved and that's what FXO did and I applaud them for it. Good luck with the meeting.
On August 14 2011 15:55 JerKy wrote: While you bring up a valid argument, you also have to realize FXO sorta did just walk into Korea and acquire a team without a deeper background understanding.
A team which approached FXO, not the other way around. It is obvious that alot of SC2 teams are struggling in Korea right now, fOu were lucky to get picked up by a serious sponsor like FXO.
On August 14 2011 14:01 FXOpen wrote: EDIT: BELOW IS BASED ON ONE PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF SC2CON AND IS NOT A REPRESENTATION OF THE KOREAN MANAGERS OR PLAYERS. HOWEVER SINCE THE ACTION WAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF SC2CON, I HAVE GENERALISED
After my initial post. I have receieved alot of communication with the Korean community, including the person with whom FXO have had a huge problem with.
Although the acts that I perceived as threats and blackmail are still being perceived as such I have been requested to give a chance to the organisation, until we meet in Korea in September.
Oh no, it sounds like sneaky-Asian* double-speak ... My mom does this shit all the time! She'll say something insane and rude and weeks later completely deny it and pretend I've misinterpreted or over-reacted.
I am understanding of business in Korea. Everyone deserves to be heard out. So I will do so on my own terms. There will be no booze or korean bbq involved, thats for sure.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
2 days ago, choya got a call at midnight with someone arguing with him about our team uniforms.
That enough for you? I try not to release too many details incase legalities ensue, and by mentioning the above statement, I can no longer use it in court if necessary as its been tainted by public knowledge. But since that was the least of if, it is an example.
When choya said "talk to Josh" i.e me. They wouldnt.
Whilst, of course honesty is a very big thing in any announcement, you have to understand there are legalities involved and posting every single thing can taint any legal case against someone.
Of course, I understand. Thanks. I would hate for this matter to escalate; and for FXO to be disadvantaged because they cannot use information due to releasing details publicly; I would never wish for that to happen.
In a very short time sc2con has sullied their name beyond redemption with me. I hope the players who this organization supposedly support are aware of the bad PR this group is giving them. I can understand now why SlayerS isn't a part of it as well, could probably smell bad business sense a mile off.
On August 14 2011 15:30 Coldviolet wrote: SlayerS is the only team that hasn't joined SC2con (yet, or never). I guess BoxeR and Jessica have foreseen what could go wrong, or at least have endless 'issues' with a group like this. I hereby hail the wisdom of the Emperor!
I guess Slayers' players don't sleep in bunk beds. I guess sponsor revenue would be divided among players? I don't think so. Jessica is a business woman and she can decide if and how much she would share revenue if she owns the team. Guess what happens if she would not share revenue with players? Who's going to stand behind the players? No one. No SC2con. Jessica is the one that makes decision whether to give out salary. Players can leave or stay.
I'm not saying Kespa or SC2con is bad or good. But, one thing I'm sure is that thanks to this organization that BW has been so big as an esport. It's not Boxer that created esport. It's an organization that created and organized esport. That's the reason foreign BW wasn't big; they weren't organized. I know a lot of you guys don't wanna hear it; but it's the truth that things need to be organized and rules must be enforced, either it's a country, company, or any organization. Things grow because of effective organization; and Kespa is an example of this. Every organization has a boss; and that boss is sometimes bossy. But, a bossy Kespa has helped grow esport more than all the loose foreign community combined.
Now, imagine there's a foreign esport organization that has rules to be enforced that consists of all foreign teams; and this organization decides to pull all the teams together for a discussion and say: "we're gonna create an SC2 league based in Los Angeles and we hope participating teams to build team house around the LA area; we don't wanna have all the little online and weekend tournaments anymore; we want one big professional league with monthly tournament like Gomtv or protentially, like MLB, NBA,...".
So apparently he's received a lot of feedback from the Korean community, I want to know what they said!!! Was it on Fomos (aka reactions) or just personal messaging? Spill the details sir!
On August 14 2011 15:30 Coldviolet wrote: SlayerS is the only team that hasn't joined SC2con (yet, or never). I guess BoxeR and Jessica have foreseen what could go wrong, or at least have endless 'issues' with a group like this. I hereby hail the wisdom of the Emperor!
I guess Slayers' players don't sleep in bunk beds. I guess sponsor revenue would be divided among players? I don't think so. Jessica is a business woman and she can decide if and how much she would share revenue if she owns the team. Guess what happens if she would not share revenue with players? Who's going to stand behind the players? No one. No SC2con. Jessica is the one that makes decision whether to give out salary. Players can leave or stay.
I'm not saying Kespa or SC2con is bad or good. But, one thing I'm sure is that thanks to this organization that BW has been so big as an esport. It's not Boxer that created esport. It's an organization that created and organized esport. That's the reason foreign BW wasn't big; they weren't organized. I know a lot of you guys don't wanna hear it; but it's the truth that things need to be organized and rules must be enforced, either it's a country, company, or any organization. Things grow because of effective organization; and Kespa is an example of this. Every organization has a boss; and that boss is sometimes bossy. But, a bossy Kespa has helped grow esport more than all the loose foreign community combined.
Now, imagine there's a foreign esport organization that has rules to be enforced that consists of all foreign teams; and this organization decides to pull all the teams together for a discussion and say: "we're gonna create an SC2 league based in Los Angeles and we hope participating teams to build team house around the LA area; we don't wanna have all the little online and weekend tournaments anymore; we want one big professional league with monthly tournament like Gomtv or protentially, like MLB, NBA,...".
Players sign contracts, so I have no idea why you're saying all this stuff. And it's usually yearly. Jessica can't just promise them something then say "fuckoff".
On August 14 2011 16:27 FXOpen wrote: I am understanding of business in Korea. Everyone deserves to be heard out. So I will do so on my own terms. There will be no booze or korean bbq involved, thats for sure.
Korean guy: "Oh Josh, you SO serious; serious all the time! You eat more bulgoggi, make you happy! Everything A-OK, yeah!"
*All these are my speculations and opinion of what has been happening. Nothing more*
I suspect that the SC2CON is a lot weaker than what many people perceive it to be. After the Puma situation, a lot of people seem to start thinking it's a big governing body, which is strange since obviously most people has never even heard of them before.
What I think is that they are actually a simple get together, where the coaches can consult with each other ( discussions ), rather than coming together so that they will make all decisions collectively. In addition, it seems clear that they have no actual power, seeing SlayerS aren't in it and that TSL can easily pull out of it with just a disagreement.
I also think that the situation is exacerbated by the fact that quite a number of teams have the problem of low funding, meaning that priority of survival comes first for them. That can result in the broken "power hierarchy" where some people are simply more comfortable at making decisions without any actual authority, while others simply have much bigger issues on their minds.
On August 14 2011 14:01 FXOpen wrote: EDIT: BELOW IS BASED ON ONE PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF SC2CON AND IS NOT A REPRESENTATION OF THE KOREAN MANAGERS OR PLAYERS. HOWEVER SINCE THE ACTION WAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF SC2CON, I HAVE GENERALISED
After my initial post. I have receieved alot of communication with the Korean community, including the person with whom FXO have had a huge problem with.
Although the acts that I perceived as threats and blackmail are still being perceived as such I have been requested to give a chance to the organisation, until we meet in Korea in September.
Oh no, it sounds like sneaky-Asian* double-speak ... My mom does this shit all the time! She'll say something insane and rude and weeks later completely deny it and pretend I've misinterpreted or over-reacted.
On August 14 2011 15:30 Coldviolet wrote: SlayerS is the only team that hasn't joined SC2con (yet, or never). I guess BoxeR and Jessica have foreseen what could go wrong, or at least have endless 'issues' with a group like this. I hereby hail the wisdom of the Emperor!
I guess Slayers' players don't sleep in bunk beds. I guess sponsor revenue would be divided among players? I don't think so. Jessica is a business woman and she can decide if and how much she would share revenue if she owns the team. Guess what happens if she would not share revenue with players? Who's going to stand behind the players? No one. No SC2con. Jessica is the one that makes decision whether to give out salary. Players can leave or stay.
I'm not saying Kespa or SC2con is bad or good. But, one thing I'm sure is that thanks to this organization that BW has been so big as an esport. It's not Boxer that created esport. It's an organization that created and organized esport. That's the reason foreign BW wasn't big; they weren't organized. I know a lot of you guys don't wanna hear it; but it's the truth that things need to be organized and rules must be enforced, either it's a country, company, or any organization. Things grow because of effective organization; and Kespa is an example of this. Every organization has a boss; and that boss is sometimes bossy. But, a bossy Kespa has helped grow esport more than all the loose foreign community combined.
Now, imagine there's a foreign esport organization that has rules to be enforced that consists of all foreign teams; and this organization decides to pull all the teams together for a discussion and say: "we're gonna create an SC2 league based in Los Angeles and we hope participating teams to build team house around the LA area; we don't wanna have all the little online and weekend tournaments anymore; we want one big professional league with monthly tournament like Gomtv or protentially, like MLB, NBA,...".
Regimes such as Kespa and SC2con can only hope to be successful if, like in Brood War, they have a substantial say in the policies of how a sport is run because the great majority of it is being played within their jurisdiction and control.
SC2 is evolving in a wholly different way. While the best players reside within the state of Korea, the fanbase, sponsorship money, and tournament structure is being largely defined outside of Korea. SC2con's attempts to regulate FXO's internal structure based on the premise of simply having operations within Korea meaning Korea gets to define everything is fundamentally flawed. If this is current policy, and remains so for the foreseeable future, Korea will fall greatly behind the esports structure and culture being built up outside its borders.
Edit: this is not to say kespa did not have a significant role in keeping esports, and starcraft, alive for years. the culture just needs to move on and be more international because of its success, that's all.
On August 14 2011 15:41 sesmc wrote: this is just absurd FXO would do some backstabbing like this, we have yet to have official words from SC2CON, and yet ppl already jumping on the band wagon.
ask yourself, is the drama good for e-sport? what will this bring to our blossoming dreams, what is the POINT????
flame on~
lol..band wagon has always been the norm of the forum. Are you new to the forum?
On August 14 2011 16:34 Woizit wrote: *All these are my speculations and opinion of what has been happening. Nothing more*
I suspect that the SC2CON is a lot weaker than what many people perceive it to be. After the Puma situation, a lot of people seem to start thinking it's a big governing body, which is strange since obviously most people has never even heard of them before.
What I think is that they are actually a simple get together, where the coaches can consult with each other ( discussions ), rather than coming together so that they will make all decisions collectively. In addition, it seems clear that they have no actual power, seeing SlayerS aren't in it and that TSL can easily pull out of it with just a disagreement.
I also think that the situation is exacerbated by the fact that quite a number of teams have the problem of low funding, meaning that priority of survival comes first for them. That can result in the broken "power hierarchy" where some people are simply more comfortable at making decisions without any actual authority, while others simply have much bigger issues on their minds.
This is my take on the situation as well. Rather than a KeSPA 2.0, we have a weak organization without much official power and without much oversight. Thus decisions are made by individuals that do not benefit the organization much less the teams and players.
Hope things come to an amicable resolution and that SC2Con becomes the organization it intended itself to be (protecting and promoting the interests of teams and players).
It gets really tiring when corporations hide all sorts of details from the public eye and leave us to wonder what their motives are for acting in particular ways.
Thanks are in order to FXOBoSs for being very transparent with his management of FXO, I'm a big fan of your organization for this
On August 14 2011 16:27 FXOpen wrote: I am understanding of business in Korea. Everyone deserves to be heard out. So I will do so on my own terms. There will be no booze or korean bbq involved, thats for sure.
Korean guy: "Oh Josh, you SO serious; serious all the time! You eat more bulgoggi, make you happy! Everything A-OK, yeah!"
hahaha nice. I can see how some nice beer and bulgogi would make one much more likely to agree to something they would otherwise not :D
Boss, I'm a huge fan of the way your run your team. Please continue to let the community know what's going on as this progresses! Best of luck dealing with the bullshit!
On August 14 2011 14:01 FXOpen wrote: EDIT: BELOW IS BASED ON ONE PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF SC2CON AND IS NOT A REPRESENTATION OF THE KOREAN MANAGERS OR PLAYERS. HOWEVER SINCE THE ACTION WAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF SC2CON, I HAVE GENERALISED
After my initial post. I have receieved alot of communication with the Korean community, including the person with whom FXO have had a huge problem with.
Although the acts that I perceived as threats and blackmail are still being perceived as such I have been requested to give a chance to the organisation, until we meet in Korea in September.
Oh no, it sounds like sneaky-Asian* double-speak ... My mom does this shit all the time! She'll say something insane and rude and weeks later completely deny it and pretend I've misinterpreted or over-reacted.
Watch your back! LOL
*yes, this is racist.
my mom must be part asian without me knowing
btw, can anyone tell me wtf is going on, lol
FXO (including FXO Korea) has decided to leave SC2Con, the association of Korean SC2 teams intended to protect the interests of players and teams.
The primary reason was one obnoxious douche-bag was making outrageous demands, irrational threats and refused to deal with FXOBoss directly.
Because FXOBoss made a very public announcement, he will now have a face-to-face meeting with the SC2Con administrators in Seoul to see if this relationship can be salvaged.
It is important to emphasize FXO's problems with SC2Con stem from one person in particular, and FXO supports the concept and spirit of SC2Con and has no issues with the teams and players that are members.
On August 14 2011 14:01 FXOpen wrote: EDIT: BELOW IS BASED ON ONE PERSON ACTING ON BEHALF OF SC2CON AND IS NOT A REPRESENTATION OF THE KOREAN MANAGERS OR PLAYERS. HOWEVER SINCE THE ACTION WAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF SC2CON, I HAVE GENERALISED
After my initial post. I have receieved alot of communication with the Korean community, including the person with whom FXO have had a huge problem with.
Although the acts that I perceived as threats and blackmail are still being perceived as such I have been requested to give a chance to the organisation, until we meet in Korea in September.
Oh no, it sounds like sneaky-Asian* double-speak ... My mom does this shit all the time! She'll say something insane and rude and weeks later completely deny it and pretend I've misinterpreted or over-reacted.
Watch your back! LOL
*yes, this is racist.
my mom must be part asian without me knowing
btw, can anyone tell me wtf is going on, lol
FXO (including FXO Korea) has decided to leave SC2Con, the association of Korean SC2 teams intended to protect the interests of players and teams.
The primary reason was one obnoxious douche-bag was making outrageous demands, irrational threats and refused to deal with FXOBoss directly.
Because FXOBoss made a very public announcement, he will now have a face-to-face meeting with the SC2Con administrators in Seoul to see if this relationship can be salvaged.
It is important to emphasize FXO's problems with SC2Con stem from one person in particular, and FXO supports the concept and spirit of SC2Con and has no issues with the teams and players that are members.
Unfortunately it seems there was a lot of generalization in this topic. I'm glad to know that it's only one person causing trouble and not SC2Con as a whole.
I fucking hate such groups that force you to action. Grow up already you dirty bastards, will you? It's fucking 21st century and democracy everywhere, don't act like restricting, threatening bunch of assholes.
Fucking KESPA's, and SCcons and other corrupt bastards. Done with them, acting like true shitheads.
Will be delighted when SC2 becomes really big everywhere and we don't have to even know what certain shitheads do or think.
On August 14 2011 16:27 FXOpen wrote: I am understanding of business in Korea. Everyone deserves to be heard out. So I will do so on my own terms. There will be no booze or korean bbq involved, thats for sure.
damn it, just take out 2 computers and play a match on Zelnaga Caverns to determine who's right and who's wrong. The guy that is wrong will just have to buy Korean BBQ though.
Also, not trying to be racist, because I enjoy watching Korean movies a lot and think their girls are cute, and SC players are beastly, but they really need to clean up their acts and country, don't they?
I am pretty sure many of them say the same about their own country. I watched South Korea vs Spain football match the other day, the blatant cheating of Koreans was embarrassing, fucking made my blood boil. Just how much cheating is enough? They had it in 2002, became an embarrassment, now again.
On August 14 2011 16:55 Xxavi wrote: I fucking hate such groups that force you to action. Grow up already you dirty bastards, will you? It's fucking 21st century and democracy everywhere, don't act like restricting, threatening bunch of assholes.
Fucking KESPA's, and SCcons and other corrupt bastards. Done with them, acting like true shitheads.
Will be delighted when SC2 becomes really big everywhere and we don't have to even know what certain shitheads do or think.
Wait whaaaatt?? Are you even reading the stuff you're posting? Lol.
On August 14 2011 16:59 Xxavi wrote: Also, not trying to be racist, because I enjoy watching Korean movies a lot and think their girls are cute, and SC players are beastly, but they really need to clean up their acts and country, don't they?
I am pretty sure many of them say the same about their own country. I watched South Korea vs Spain football match the other day, the blatant cheating of Koreans was embarrassing, fucking made my blood boil. Just how much cheating is enough? They had it in 2002, became an embarrassment, now again.
Keep it classy.
Does anybody else notice the irony of his last sentence....
On August 14 2011 16:59 Xxavi wrote: Also, not trying to be racist, because I enjoy watching Korean movies a lot and think their girls are cute, and SC players are beastly, but they really need to clean up their acts and country, don't they?
I am pretty sure many of them say the same about their own country. I watched South Korea vs Spain football match the other day, the blatant cheating of Koreans was embarrassing, fucking made my blood boil. Just how much cheating is enough? They had it in 2002, became an embarrassment, now again.
On August 14 2011 16:59 Xxavi wrote: Also, not trying to be racist, because I enjoy watching Korean movies a lot and think their girls are cute, and SC players are beastly, but they really need to clean up their acts and country, don't they?
I am pretty sure many of them say the same about their own country. I watched South Korea vs Spain football match the other day, the blatant cheating of Koreans was embarrassing, fucking made my blood boil. Just how much cheating is enough? They had it in 2002, became an embarrassment, now again.
On August 14 2011 16:55 Xxavi wrote: I fucking hate such groups that force you to action. Grow up already you dirty bastards, will you? It's fucking 21st century and democracy everywhere, don't act like restricting, threatening bunch of assholes.
Fucking KESPA's, and SCcons and other corrupt bastards. Done with them, acting like true shitheads.
Will be delighted when SC2 becomes really big everywhere and we don't have to even know what certain shitheads do or think.
Wait whaaaatt?? Are you even reading the stuff you're posting? Lol.
What's wrong with it? I happen to support democracy, not a dictatorship style organization.
Everybody can decide what name to have and what jersey to wear. If they cannot accept it, SC2CON can suck my dick.
On August 14 2011 16:55 Xxavi wrote: I fucking hate such groups that force you to action. Grow up already you dirty bastards, will you? It's fucking 21st century and democracy everywhere, don't act like restricting, threatening bunch of assholes.
Fucking KESPA's, and SCcons and other corrupt bastards. Done with them, acting like true shitheads.
Will be delighted when SC2 becomes really big everywhere and we don't have to even know what certain shitheads do or think.
Wait whaaaatt?? Are you even reading the stuff you're posting? Lol.
Gotta love how he's from the US too. Better worry about your own country first :p
On August 14 2011 16:59 Xxavi wrote: Also, not trying to be racist, because I enjoy watching Korean movies a lot and think their girls are cute, and SC players are beastly, but they really need to clean up their acts and country, don't they?
I am pretty sure many of them say the same about their own country. I watched South Korea vs Spain football match the other day, the blatant cheating of Koreans was embarrassing, fucking made my blood boil. Just how much cheating is enough? They had it in 2002, became an embarrassment, now again.
Keep it classy.
You can't be serious?
I am serious. Did you watch the match? They were dropping like flies everywhere, and dragged the game to penalties, fooking cheaters.
On August 14 2011 16:59 Xxavi wrote: Also, not trying to be racist, because I enjoy watching Korean movies a lot and think their girls are cute, and SC players are beastly, but they really need to clean up their acts and country, don't they?
I am pretty sure many of them say the same about their own country. I watched South Korea vs Spain football match the other day, the blatant cheating of Koreans was embarrassing, fucking made my blood boil. Just how much cheating is enough? They had it in 2002, became an embarrassment, now again.
Keep it classy.
Oh god.......... Did you just generalise one country based on the actions of a few men? I pity your ignorance. Oh, and funny you should mention football, when spanish players are notorious for their play acting and diving. Do you even watch football outside of world cups?
So, do you think people should start making judgements and assumptions about the US, based on people like Sarah Palin, Bernard Madoff, or even Xxavi? Please use your head before spouting nonsensical bullshit.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
2 days ago, choya got a call at midnight with someone arguing with him about our team uniforms.
That enough for you? I try not to release too many details incase legalities ensue, and by mentioning the above statement, I can no longer use it in court if necessary as its been tainted by public knowledge. But since that was the least of if, it is an example.
When choya said "talk to Josh" i.e me. They wouldnt.
Whilst, of course honesty is a very big thing in any announcement, you have to understand there are legalities involved and posting every single thing can taint any legal case against someone.
Of course, I understand. Thanks. I would hate for this matter to escalate; and for FXO to be disadvantaged because they cannot use information due to releasing details publicly; I would never wish for that to happen.
Cheers for explaining.
How information would be unusable if it has made public knowledge? It does not change its truthness at all.
FXOboss is wrong. He can still use that piece of information with no problems in court.
On August 14 2011 16:59 Xxavi wrote: Also, not trying to be racist, because I enjoy watching Korean movies a lot and think their girls are cute, and SC players are beastly, but they really need to clean up their acts and country, don't they?
I am pretty sure many of them say the same about their own country. I watched South Korea vs Spain football match the other day, the blatant cheating of Koreans was embarrassing, fucking made my blood boil. Just how much cheating is enough? They had it in 2002, became an embarrassment, now again.
Keep it classy.
You can't be serious?
I am serious. Did you watch the match? They were dropping like flies everywhere, and dragged the game to penalties, fooking cheaters.
And I am not even going to start with 2002 WC.
Please stop derailing the topic. We're really talking about one Korean guy here that single-handedly alienated one of the few Korea teams that has reliable financial support by refusing to deal with their owner.
On August 14 2011 16:33 FabledIntegral wrote: So apparently he's received a lot of feedback from the Korean community, I want to know what they said!!! Was it on Fomos (aka reactions) or just personal messaging? Spill the details sir!
On August 14 2011 15:30 Coldviolet wrote: SlayerS is the only team that hasn't joined SC2con (yet, or never). I guess BoxeR and Jessica have foreseen what could go wrong, or at least have endless 'issues' with a group like this. I hereby hail the wisdom of the Emperor!
I guess Slayers' players don't sleep in bunk beds. I guess sponsor revenue would be divided among players? I don't think so. Jessica is a business woman and she can decide if and how much she would share revenue if she owns the team. Guess what happens if she would not share revenue with players? Who's going to stand behind the players? No one. No SC2con. Jessica is the one that makes decision whether to give out salary. Players can leave or stay.
I'm not saying Kespa or SC2con is bad or good. But, one thing I'm sure is that thanks to this organization that BW has been so big as an esport. It's not Boxer that created esport. It's an organization that created and organized esport. That's the reason foreign BW wasn't big; they weren't organized. I know a lot of you guys don't wanna hear it; but it's the truth that things need to be organized and rules must be enforced, either it's a country, company, or any organization. Things grow because of effective organization; and Kespa is an example of this. Every organization has a boss; and that boss is sometimes bossy. But, a bossy Kespa has helped grow esport more than all the loose foreign community combined.
Now, imagine there's a foreign esport organization that has rules to be enforced that consists of all foreign teams; and this organization decides to pull all the teams together for a discussion and say: "we're gonna create an SC2 league based in Los Angeles and we hope participating teams to build team house around the LA area; we don't wanna have all the little online and weekend tournaments anymore; we want one big professional league with monthly tournament like Gomtv or protentially, like MLB, NBA,...".
Players sign contracts, so I have no idea why you're saying all this stuff. And it's usually yearly. Jessica can't just promise them something then say "fuckoff".
I don't think there is any contract in Korean SC2 at this point since the scene is still small (at least not between players and teams, with the exception of maybe Moon and Nada, and other big names). Slayers' players often move between the A-team (teamhouse) and B-team (staying at home like Slayers.Dragon). They get kicked out of the house whenever they don't perform enough. That's the way Slayers' team structure is right now. A lot of things is based on trust right now. Ordinary players usually get a place to stay and practice without worrying about the next meal. That's it. Most of them don't have salary.
Lordwar, I presume you're not a lawyer and not qualified to provide legal advice in Korea or Australia. Neither am I, so let's leave it to FXOBoss to find his own legal counseling rather than pretending to know better.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
2 days ago, choya got a call at midnight with someone arguing with him about our team uniforms.
That enough for you? I try not to release too many details incase legalities ensue, and by mentioning the above statement, I can no longer use it in court if necessary as its been tainted by public knowledge. But since that was the least of if, it is an example.
When choya said "talk to Josh" i.e me. They wouldnt.
Whilst, of course honesty is a very big thing in any announcement, you have to understand there are legalities involved and posting every single thing can taint any legal case against someone.
Of course, I understand. Thanks. I would hate for this matter to escalate; and for FXO to be disadvantaged because they cannot use information due to releasing details publicly; I would never wish for that to happen.
Cheers for explaining.
How information would be unusable if it has made public knowledge? It does not change its truthness at all.
FXOboss is wrong. He can still use that piece of information with no problems in court.
Even if it's true, the public can misinterpret it and the offended party can accuse you of defamation, or trying to discredit them.
It also distances both parties in a dispute and makes it more difficult for either to make compromises without looking weak (see the current state of the Republican party as reference).
We should all take a page from Sundance, who is an expert at concise, clear public statements -- sometimes the less said, the better. It's annoying, but the more words you give people, the more they have to use against you.
On August 14 2011 17:14 Primadog wrote: Lordwar, I presume you're not a lawyer and not qualified to provide legal advice in Korea or Australia. Neither am I, so let's leave it to FXOBoss to find his own legal counseling rather than pretending to know better.
I just know that FXOboss is wrong, and I have no idea where did he even pull out that claim. Announcing something publicly does not itself degrade the value of evidence.
I really don't want to comment on the situation and the decision of FXO to leave itself, but I want to say that I find it amazing how transparent FXO makes his decisions to the community and how professional they act all around.
It seems to have a great staff behind it - well done. Other than that.. so much drama right now.
On August 14 2011 17:14 Primadog wrote: Lordwar, I presume you're not a lawyer and not qualified to provide legal advice in Korea or Australia. Neither am I, so let's leave it to FXOBoss to find his own legal counseling rather than pretending to know better.
I just know that FXOboss is wrong, and I have no idea where did he even pull out that claim. Announcing something publicly does not itself degrade the value of evidence.
That's where you're wrong.
I have been a party to quite a few corporate suits. Some I won, some I lost, and I can certanily tell you that there're many circumstances in which previously publicly disclosed information can and does haunt one party or another in the court.
So don't pretend you know what you're talking about.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
2 days ago, choya got a call at midnight with someone arguing with him about our team uniforms.
That enough for you? I try not to release too many details incase legalities ensue, and by mentioning the above statement, I can no longer use it in court if necessary as its been tainted by public knowledge. But since that was the least of if, it is an example.
When choya said "talk to Josh" i.e me. They wouldnt.
Whilst, of course honesty is a very big thing in any announcement, you have to understand there are legalities involved and posting every single thing can taint any legal case against someone.
Of course, I understand. Thanks. I would hate for this matter to escalate; and for FXO to be disadvantaged because they cannot use information due to releasing details publicly; I would never wish for that to happen.
Cheers for explaining.
How information would be unusable if it has made public knowledge? It does not change its truthness at all.
FXOboss is wrong. He can still use that piece of information with no problems in court.
Even if it's true, the public can misinterpret it and the offended party can accuse you of defamation, or trying to discredit them.
It also distances both parties in a dispute and makes it more difficult for either to make compromises without looking weak (see the current state of the Republican party as reference).
We should all take a page from Sundance, who is an expert at concise, clear public statements -- sometimes the less said, the better. It's annoying, but the more words you give people, the more they have to use against you.
Saying something publicly doesnt change anything, it can still be used as an evidence. Announcing it publicly itself doesnt weaken it at all.
On August 14 2011 17:14 Primadog wrote: Lordwar, I presume you're not a lawyer and not qualified to provide legal advice in Korea or Australia. Neither am I, so let's leave it to FXOBoss to find his own legal counseling rather than pretending to know better.
I just know that FXOboss is wrong, and I have no idea where did he even pull out that claim. Announcing something publicly does not itself degrade the value of evidence.
That's where you're wrong.
I have been a party to quite a few corporate suits. Some I won, some I lost, and I can certanily tell you that there're many circumstances in which previously publicly disclosed information can and does haunt one party or another in the court.
So don't pretend you know what you're talking about.
It doesnt prevent still using it as an evidence, if you claim otherwise you just lie.
On August 14 2011 17:25 Primadog wrote: Look, this has to stop.
My name is XiFan Hong, one of the companies I have a share in is HY STONE DEPOT. You're welcome to search public records and does the fact-check.
You have no idea what the fuck are you talking about. I do. That's enough.
I dont fucking care who you are, but I know for sure that you lie if you claim that evidence cannot be used in court if it has been announced publicly.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
2 days ago, choya got a call at midnight with someone arguing with him about our team uniforms.
That enough for you? I try not to release too many details incase legalities ensue, and by mentioning the above statement, I can no longer use it in court if necessary as its been tainted by public knowledge. But since that was the least of if, it is an example.
When choya said "talk to Josh" i.e me. They wouldnt.
Whilst, of course honesty is a very big thing in any announcement, you have to understand there are legalities involved and posting every single thing can taint any legal case against someone.
Of course, I understand. Thanks. I would hate for this matter to escalate; and for FXO to be disadvantaged because they cannot use information due to releasing details publicly; I would never wish for that to happen.
Cheers for explaining.
How information would be unusable if it has made public knowledge? It does not change its truthness at all.
FXOboss is wrong. He can still use that piece of information with no problems in court.
Even if it's true, the public can misinterpret it and the offended party can accuse you of defamation, or trying to discredit them.
It also distances both parties in a dispute and makes it more difficult for either to make compromises without looking weak (see the current state of the Republican party as reference).
We should all take a page from Sundance, who is an expert at concise, clear public statements -- sometimes the less said, the better. It's annoying, but the more words you give people, the more they have to use against you.
Saying something publicly doesnt change anything, it can still be used as an evidence. Announcing it publicly itself doesnt weaken it at all.
Of course it can...
Naturally it depends on exactly what evidence we are talking about, but there can be many valid reasons why you don't want to publicly state something that are going to be used in a legal argument. I can't see why you would argue otherwise.
Glad I got to read this before it all got edited out. I look forward to hearing further details once they have their meeting. It's also sad as this is the latest reflection of the fact that SC2 isn't going really well over in Korea. I hope everything gets sorted out one way or another for the good of the scene.
On August 14 2011 14:41 SecondChance wrote: What are we supposed to make of this? I'm certainly not calling you a liar by any means, or accusing you of making up stories; but for what reason can you not even provide an example of a phone call you received, or a threat or some experience that you can retell that would at least add some sustenance to your story?
Right now, your post consists of - Sc2con did this and this, it was very bad and we don't like it. Thus, we have decided to leave Sc2con.
I'm not one to pry for information, but if you can't give detailed examples, or give proof, or something your story is just a story. If there are legal reasons or for some other reason you can't disclose information, that's fine.
I also realise TL.net is an sc2 fan site. We can't and shouldn't expect you to tell us everything you know about your own personal issues; I understand that. However, a little more detail is necessary imo.
2 days ago, choya got a call at midnight with someone arguing with him about our team uniforms.
That enough for you? I try not to release too many details incase legalities ensue, and by mentioning the above statement, I can no longer use it in court if necessary as its been tainted by public knowledge. But since that was the least of if, it is an example.
When choya said "talk to Josh" i.e me. They wouldnt.
Whilst, of course honesty is a very big thing in any announcement, you have to understand there are legalities involved and posting every single thing can taint any legal case against someone.
Of course, I understand. Thanks. I would hate for this matter to escalate; and for FXO to be disadvantaged because they cannot use information due to releasing details publicly; I would never wish for that to happen.
Cheers for explaining.
How information would be unusable if it has made public knowledge? It does not change its truthness at all.
FXOboss is wrong. He can still use that piece of information with no problems in court.
Even if it's true, the public can misinterpret it and the offended party can accuse you of defamation, or trying to discredit them.
It also distances both parties in a dispute and makes it more difficult for either to make compromises without looking weak (see the current state of the Republican party as reference).
We should all take a page from Sundance, who is an expert at concise, clear public statements -- sometimes the less said, the better. It's annoying, but the more words you give people, the more they have to use against you.
Saying something publicly doesnt change anything, it can still be used as an evidence. Announcing it publicly itself doesnt weaken it at all.
Ligitation is the last resort. It's expensive as hell.
Making a dispute public is the second-to-last resort. It makes it harder for two parties to compromise without losing face in front of their organization's members and stakeholders.
What FXOBoss did by announcing publicly that FXO was leaving SC2Con was obviously a difficult decision, after extensive attempts to resolve issues quietly and respectfully but getting nowhere.
It's not all about "who would win in court" or who has the best "evidence." To put it simply, handling negotiations in a public manner is bad for business. It doesn't even matter if your right. It makes resolving disputes much more complicated.
FXOBoss is obviously prepared to sever the cord with SC2Con if necessary, which is the only reason he announced it.
Can someone post Boss' original post for those that missed it? I understand he removed it for a reason but it makes the rest of the thread weird and out of context Or just an overall paraphrase bit or something, I mean its been out there in public so its not like its gone
On August 14 2011 17:25 Primadog wrote: Look, this has to stop.
My name is XiFan Hong, one of the companies I have a share in is HY STONE DEPOT. You're welcome to search public records and does the fact-check.
You have no idea what the fuck are you talking about. I do. That's enough.
I dont fucking care who you are, but I know for sure that you lie if you claim that evidence cannot be used in court if it has been announced publicly.
Now, shut up really.
You are not FXO's lawyer, so how bout you shut up
I hope these issues get resolved quickly and amicably, and we can go back to fighting in our beautiful esport instead of outside it.
I'm still not sure what the hell have happened... Can someone explain what exactly problem this person and FXOBoss have with each other? I mean saying that you will leave sc2con because of one person is pretty harsh, I won't pick a stand untill I know what is going on.
On August 14 2011 17:36 hdan wrote: Can someone post Boss' original post for those that missed it? I understand he removed it for a reason but it makes the rest of the thread weird and out of context Or just an overall paraphrase bit or something, I mean its been out there in public so its not like its gone
Sorry, no OP, but here's my summary.
On August 14 2011 16:44 Defacer wrote:
FXO (including FXO Korea) has decided to leave SC2Con, the association of Korean SC2 teams intended to protect the interests of players and teams.
The primary reason was Choya had to deal with one obnoxious douche-bag from SC2Con, who was making outrageous demands, irrational threats and refused to deal with FXOBoss directly.
Because FXOBoss made a very public announcement, he will now have a face-to-face meeting with the SC2Con administrators in Seoul to see if this relationship can be salvaged.
It is important to emphasize FXO's problems with SC2Con stem from one person in particular, and FXO supports the concept and spirit of SC2Con and has no issues with the teams and players that are members.
On August 14 2011 17:23 valaki wrote: What's wrong with FXO Korea?
Nothing. Problem is, they want to be known as FXO. just that. And when a bunch of guys say that you must change your team name to FXO Korea (even if it is just the old fou group) is pretty much not gonna fly.
I have always loved and supported FXO's actions especially in how transparent and professional their team are in their decisions. Hopefully they will be able to find amicable solutions for all parties involved. Really impressed that FXOBoss himself would fly over there and settle things personally.
Wow, SC2Con seems like Kespa 2.5, absolutely horrible for esports. I will not show any support for them after all this sillyness with ruining for NASL and now threatening players (don't care if they say it was 1 person, he shouldn't have worked for them in the first place). My big concern is that the losers of this are the players.
The post has been updated, but yeah... fuck those guys, if you're getting pushed around FXO Boss, that means that sc2con is hurting esports. I'm not being sarcastic, this on top of the NASL shit has me genuinely worried. Way to stick in there, keep up the good work
don't you have much more money than any other team in Korea? so you can afford to send your players to the NASL finals and thus have no reason to stay in the group
On August 14 2011 18:13 Stiluz wrote: Wow, SC2Con seems like Kespa 2.5, absolutely horrible for esports. I will not show any support for them after all this sillyness with ruining for NASL and now threatening players (don't care if they say it was 1 person, he shouldn't have worked for them in the first place). My big concern is that the losers of this are the players.
On August 14 2011 18:14 TheDougler wrote: The post has been updated, but yeah... fuck those guys, if you're getting pushed around FXO Boss, that means that sc2con is hurting esports. I'm not being sarcastic, this on top of the NASL shit has me genuinely worried. Way to stick in there, keep up the good work
Apparently, the s2con teams and managers had NO IDEA this was going on. It turns out the team leader of s2con was being a giant douche to FXO.
So you could say one person caused FXO to leave. Koreans are demanding answers.
Major props to FXO for having such patience and a passion for e-sports that they are willing to work things out with sc2con even after perceived threats and blackmail.
Not going to lie, I didnt even know the name of the organization that was overseeing SC2 in Korea untill all this crazyness with them started. Not a very good first impression
On August 14 2011 18:51 FXOpen wrote: sC as far as I am aware, does not wish to play in NASL. At least thats what he told me.
This is another topic, but one day it would be nice to hear what the NASL could do, from your perspective, to encourage Koreans to participate. It doesn't seem to be strictly about money or travel expenses.
It's like "Lord of The Flies" over there. I think the problem is this is all being ran by a bunch of young adults, none of which have extensive experience with business management.
On August 14 2011 19:10 JayDee_ wrote: It's like "Lord of The Flies" over there. I think the problem is this is all being ran by a bunch of young adults, none of which have extensive experience with business management.
Nailed the nail on the head for the source of all these drama in the past month plus.
I think s2con should be more careful, as it is right now it's the foreign teams and sponsers that has the money, if they keep making drama like that against the foreign teams and leagues, they will in the end stop sending there players or money to korea. Even if all the accusations arnt true, they should try to fix the problems instead of a throwing accusations at others or claming they had nothing to do with it
On August 14 2011 14:01 FXOpen wrote: I hope I haven't upset anyone by removing this post, but I feel its best for business to take the meeting first.
Thanks for the support guys!
Peace
FXOBoSs
My curiosity wishes I had seen this post before the edit, but my sanity thanks you for saving me the drama. Frankly, I think the conservative approach is for the best. I hope whatever has and will happen doesn't hinder FXO or greater foreign involvement in the Korean scene as well as greater Korean activity abroad.
On August 14 2011 14:01 FXOpen wrote: I hope I haven't upset anyone by removing this post, but I feel its best for business to take the meeting first.
Thanks for the support guys!
Peace
FXOBoSs
My curiosity wishes I had seen this post before the edit, but my sanity thanks you for saving me the drama. Frankly, I think the conservative approach is for the best. I hope whatever has and will happen doesn't hinder FXO or greater foreign involvement in the Korean scene as well as greater Korean activity abroad.
Honestly, I kinda seen this coming. It will always be this way with big companies and maybe more so when they deal with foreign groups. I hope it all work out well, FXO fighting! |_(^_^)
<3 you FXOBoSs, just the way you are protecting your team and players is just amazing to see. I wish all the teams were that protective of their players and professional.
I am constant follower of you twitch TV and love to hear your comments on it, once your on ur channel ofc
Forget SC2Con and korea. Starcraft is entertaining weather it's a bronze league super stars or nestea vs his cloned self. I know I'm the minority judging by the amount of people saying they won't buy NASL with the korean pull out, but whatever.
On August 14 2011 17:14 Primadog wrote: Lordwar, I presume you're not a lawyer and not qualified to provide legal advice in Korea or Australia. Neither am I, so let's leave it to FXOBoss to find his own legal counseling rather than pretending to know better.
I just know that FXOboss is wrong, and I have no idea where did he even pull out that claim. Announcing something publicly does not itself degrade the value of evidence.
That's where you're wrong.
I have been a party to quite a few corporate suits. Some I won, some I lost, and I can certanily tell you that there're many circumstances in which previously publicly disclosed information can and does haunt one party or another in the court.
So don't pretend you know what you're talking about.
You have no idea how happy I am that SC2 has such a highly educated fan base.
i believe FXOBoSs and Choya are great teamleader, passionate and (becoming more)professional. i wish for sc2con to think about their actions and appearence more carefully, if those dramas go on they will lose all important members and the support of the community
On August 14 2011 20:45 BWILLdur wrote: Forget SC2Con and korea. Starcraft is entertaining weather it's a bronze league super stars or nestea vs his cloned self. I know I'm the minority judging by the amount of people saying they won't buy NASL with the korean pull out, but whatever.
Huge news! However, I'm not too surprised since the Coach Lee and NASL fiasco, Sc2Con has shown itself to be an unprofessional body. Good luck with FXO!
It's good thing that we get to know these things, the sooner the better. I wonder how it would had been if these things was brought up a half year later or so.
On August 14 2011 14:04 oblong9 wrote: i think someone needs to take some serious action, if it becomes kespa 2.0 that will be extremely bad for basically all of esports imo
It's already Kespa 2.0, there's a new drama involving S2CON every day. S2CON needs to be destroyed immediately for the sake of eSports.
You don't need organisations like SC2CON at all. Just look at Slayers, their teamspirit and just general freedom seems so much better then any other team.
On August 14 2011 20:42 FunnelC4kes wrote: So, SC2Con trying to use political leverage against FXO....
AND all SC2Con teams pull out of NASL
Am I seeing a theme here?
I am, that's for sure.
I pray this gets resolved well. With all the recent happenings, it's getting farcical at this point.
HURTING #ESPORTS.
no its not just the Sc2con member-teams...
the NASL-thing is about money thats all. Koreans cant pay tickets, living and securities with just a grant and a accommodation on their possible winnings (due to low/non payed sponsorships)
Its the same for europeans: Only the ones with a paying team/sponsor are participating
THIS Drama is more respect-related QQing about behavior of one person blabla
Wow more idiocy in Korea going on. With the FD and Tester thing and then the NASL thing and now the FXO thing it seems like Korea's scene is ground bottom. They lack professionalism, transparency and good will.
Seems like KESPA 2.0 and that ain't good for esports. Thankfully e-sports is more than Korea now and players, teams and tournaments aren't bound by some organization.
Hopefully this bad press will force the sc2con to disband. There needs to be people like Boxer, Nada, Nestea representing the players in that they are older and more experienced and have enough money on their own to not get bought off.
On August 14 2011 18:51 FXOpen wrote: sC as far as I am aware, does not wish to play in NASL. At least thats what he told me.
Are SC2con ok with you buying fOU and rebranding it as a western team? I find it hard to believe that one guy in SC2con would act on his own to cause drama, surely there is more than one power player in that group?
Can you tell us more about how SC2con looks at tournaments like MLG and NASL? Are they pressuring those groups as well, also are they getting paid for sending players to outside tournaments?
On August 14 2011 22:45 Kimaker wrote: KESPA v2.0 BABY!
It's frustrating to read Kespa bashing even though the people shouting have absolutely NO clue what Kespa did for the growth of Starcraft / Esports in Korea.
On August 14 2011 22:24 thehitman wrote: Wow more idiocy in Korea going on. With the FD and Tester thing and then the NASL thing and now the FXO thing it seems like Korea's scene is ground bottom. They lack professionalism, transparency and good will.
Seems like KESPA 2.0 and that ain't good for esports. Thankfully e-sports is more than Korea now and players, teams and tournaments aren't bound by some organization.
Hopefully this bad press will force the sc2con to disband. There needs to be people like Boxer, Nada, Nestea representing the players in that they are older and more experienced and have enough money on their own to not get bought off.
I doubt anyone in the korean scene endorses harassment in the form of middle of the night phonecalls as a tool to get people to do stuff. Sc2con is a total mess that's for sure, but I honestly don't believe it is representative of the korean SC2 scene as a whole.
More likely then not this is the work of an individual (or a few) overstepping their boundaries completely.
Things getting kind of dicey in Korea, teams not going to NASL, TSL thing, now this. Maybe there should be some type of sc2 organization for europe and NA as well, don't want another KeSPA
can someone change the title of the post to FXO leaves s2con organisation? This is already very confusing to follow since SC2CON is a different organization than S2CON.
On August 14 2011 22:45 Kimaker wrote: KESPA v2.0 BABY!
It's frustrating to read Kespa bashing even though the people shouting have absolutely NO clue what Kespa did for the growth of Starcraft / Esports in Korea.
I agree, most people who are new to SC don't seem to realised that a Kespa is precisely what SC2 needs now. You need someone to control everyone else so there is a clear chain of command. ATM every team is doing whatever they please without worrying too much about consequences.
The recent dramas are just signs of how unorganized(between teams) the SC2 e-sport scene really is. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
With the NASL withdraw, GOMtv compromised thing, and now all this mafia-like drama going on, I am seriously thinking of boycotting the GSL and stop getting my ticket.
On August 14 2011 23:38 drcatellino wrote: With the NASL withdraw, GOMtv compromised thing, and now all this mafia-like drama going on, I am seriously thinking of boycotting the GSL and stop getting my ticket.
The GSL has nothing to do with s2con if that is what you are implying...
On August 14 2011 23:43 Pudge_172 wrote: Why do we have to have GSL?
I'm pretty damn sure that the NA and EU teams can handle all the really good Koreans and pay them much better.
The main reason the GSL is a premier tournament all around is simply because it has a higher prizepool then any other tournament. 1 single season of GSL has more prizemoney then any other event, and they have 7-8 tournaments a year. Probably adds up to around a million USD a year.
Nothing in the west (in terms of organised tournaments) comes close to that. The GSL simply allows some measure of financial stability for the players once they obtain code S.
IMO, we need a KESPA-like organization in SC2. Looking at how unorganized the Korean scene is (And the foreign scene be hardly be called organized), we need a Kespa telling everybody the rules and not letting every team or player do what they want to do.
This is extremely disappointing to hear. I hope there has been some form of miscommunication, or the representative went rogue or something odd like that. Until I hear more about the situation I loathe to jump to any conclusions surrounding sc2con or any other teams or managers. Although I must say that the recent dramatic events surrounding so many players and teams is extremely disheartening to hear about.
Thanks to all the other organisations, players, movers and shakers that understand how to conduct business in a professional manner, and continue to give E-Sports a good name.
Not shocking at all, Kespa was practically the mob, many players were treated more like slaves then people. Requiring players ridiculous amounts of commitments to their teams with no contracts and in many occasions very little pay.
Not shocked at all that sc2con has gone the same route....this is what happens when an organization that's suppose to look out for esports and the players is run by TV companies and team managers.
On August 15 2011 00:06 Kalent wrote: IMO, we need a KESPA-like organization in SC2. Looking at how unorganized the Korean scene is (And the foreign scene be hardly be called organized), we need a Kespa telling everybody the rules and not letting every team or player do what they want to do.
ok but that can only be taken so far. You still have to treat human beings acceptably, kepsa treated players like slaves. An organization that keeps things organized is great, but player treatment is just as important as well.
On August 15 2011 00:06 Kalent wrote: IMO, we need a KESPA-like organization in SC2. Looking at how unorganized the Korean scene is (And the foreign scene be hardly be called organized), we need a Kespa telling everybody the rules and not letting every team or player do what they want to do.
Do you people have any proof of Kespa running a slave-run system, or do you just like to talk out of your ass? Sure, code B players just gained very little money, or just got food and shelter, but well, it is still better than nothing like in SC2. As a side note, do you people really believe a Lzgamer at EG wions as much money as Idra? Or Naniwa and dKiller? Newsflash: top players win a lot of money, average player win less. This is as true in Korean broodwar than in foreign SC2 teams.
On August 14 2011 14:05 DarkDolphin wrote: You gotta do what you gotta do, Starcraft 2 is no longer "Just Korea" , if that was the case we would be run by the Evil Empire ( Kespa ) Good Job FXO.
-SC2CON = Evil Empire.
-FXO = Rebel Alliance :D
- On a more serious note, i believe the International teams, FXO, TL;, EG dignitas etc etc, Should start thinking of creating an organization, SC2CON / KESPA are not acceptable SC2 is not just Korea, we are no longer in Broodwar , in the times where the Evil Empire ruled the Kuprulu Sector.
-however something like SC2CON is needed but should not be exclusive or just Korea, such thing is unacceptable, GJ FXOBOSS. :D
-PS. : I officially declare SC2CON "EVIL EMPIRE" from now on.
I say we declare SC2CON "the Terran Dominion" (Makes sense because most Korean professionals play Terran) and FXO "Raynor's Raiders" to be honest.
But on a more serious note, I think SC2CON is beginning to behave more like KeSPA by the minute.
On August 14 2011 23:39 sashamunguia wrote: "organization" is misspelled on the thread's name
American much?
on topic, sounds like there is good opportunity for an international governing body to develop for sc2 that Korea can buy into - would be nice to avoid the us v them...
Korea may have the star players, but us/europe has the big LAN events that are easier to commercialise - they will keep running regardless of whether the Koreans do / don't show...
I'm actually kind of glad stuff like this is happening. The reason Kespa gets so much hate is they were the IT organization in bw and there was nothing anyone could do about it. In Sc2, the scene is actually bigger in NA and EU. If they treat their players like crap they will just join a foreign team and the problem will be solved. I pray there isn't an internation Sc2 organization formed. I would much prefer to just let the cream rise to the top and let the players decide for themselves instead of one governing body making decisions for them.
On August 15 2011 00:06 Kalent wrote: IMO, we need a KESPA-like organization in SC2. Looking at how unorganized the Korean scene is (And the foreign scene be hardly be called organized), we need a Kespa telling everybody the rules and not letting every team or player do what they want to do.
That's basically asking "Oh please, force your rules upon me and threaten me when i don't obey". KeSPA was retarded and we don't need them in SC2 either.
How is the korean scene handling this? Who is the "bad boys" in their eyes? FXO or SC2con? And thanks BoSs, it takes balls being an hard-ass like that! Keep up the great work for FXO and E-Sports!
Huge respect for Boss and FXO standing up to "the man" and doing what's right - with unusual yet appreciated transparency to boot.
Don't let SC2con bully players and teams around like Kespa does in BW. This might work in BW since it's Korea only and the system has been built from the ground up to accept Kespa's mob-like authority and control, but not so in SC2.
I believe this is a good wake-up call for them and they will be forced to return to the negotiating table much humbler the next time around.
On August 15 2011 01:38 Zhiroo wrote: Reading the OP I can't gather anything. So wtf is this? Not that I care for FXO much.
the original post was removed, basically sc2con has a problem with the name and logo of FXO and wanted them to change it using blackmail and threats thats what i can remember from it. Not to mention the stress cause by sc2con for the fxo players.
you maybe the boss of FXO, but you're acting like the boss of sc2 korea. not good.
giving sc2con a chance? you're just 1 team manager out of all the others around.
seems pretty immature to complain publicly on the internet about blackmails and insults from a single rep w/o talking it over with sc2con heads. if you've decided to air it then stick to your guns, if you're wrong for airing it all prematurely then man up and apologise instead of trying to seem high and mighty.
Kespa made alot of douchebag moves, but at least they were mostly upfront and legal about their doucheness. They released statements, laid out rules, drew up contracts etc SC2con is more shady, making the same or worse moves but doing it behind closed doors and being secretive about it, trying to blackmail, coerce and intimidate, really pathetic. I hope they get shut down.
I dont know if this was talked about in the thread (I havent read all 28 pages yet), but did FXO join sc2con when they bought fou or were they in it because they were in Korea competing in the GSTL? Is there anything STOPPING other nonkorean teams from joining sc2con or has it just not happened yet?
On August 14 2011 14:09 HolyArrow wrote: One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
IMJunwi is the president of SC2Con. Apart from that, I don't know who the other members are, but quite a few are active progamers.
SC2Con only needed to exist because of stuff like the EG-Puma incident. Still, it's a little weird for an organization to threaten another prominent team in Korea.
Heres the old news post of basic info about SC2Con for anyone interested, however this is old so there are probably a few changes
On November 16 2010 17:20 Selith wrote: Source:
This upcoming 17th, there will be an official establishment of StarCraft 2 association as well as an orientation at GomTV studio. It will involve 7 teams that are currently participating in GSL, plus their coaches and players.
The association will include teams StarTale, Prime, oGs, TSL, fOu, ZeNEX, and IM, their coaches and their players. In addition, there will be StarCraft 2 game team association, players association, and an advisory board.
The first president will be Won Jeong Uk, currently the coach of StarTale, and the advisory committee will be managed by GomTV e-sports business management and an editor from a famous e-sports specialized webzine.
Also, the commissioners will be TSL's Lee Un Jae coach, Prime's Park Wae Sik coach, oGs Park Sang Ik coach, fOu Kim Tae Yeup manager, ZeNEX Yun Hee Won coach, and IM Kang Dong Hoon coach. As for the commissioner for the players association, one will be selected through gamers voting in sometime in January 2011.
On August 14 2011 14:09 HolyArrow wrote: One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
IMJunwi is the president of SC2Con. Apart from that, I don't know who the other members are, but quite a few are active progamers.
From what I understand, Junwi is not the president of the SC2Con (and one of the posts above me says the president is the ST coach).
Junwi was only voted as the head of the Players' Association.
On August 14 2011 14:09 HolyArrow wrote: One thing I'm really confused about is: Who is actually governing sc2con? Are coaches/managers of various teams in on it? Who is actually in charge? For a body like sc2con, it seems like there should be some transparency, no? First I was pretty neutral toward sc2con but with direct testimony from the FXO manager himself, it seems like it's being run by some asshole(s) on a power trip. Blackmail? Insults? Seriously? I am feeling pretty disappointed and disgusted right now.
IMJunwi is the president of SC2Con. Apart from that, I don't know who the other members are, but quite a few are active progamers.
Wrong, he is the president of the players association.
On August 14 2011 14:05 DarkDolphin wrote: You gotta do what you gotta do, Starcraft 2 is no longer "Just Korea" , if that was the case we would be run by the Evil Empire ( Kespa ) Good Job FXO.
-SC2CON = Evil Empire.
-FXO = Rebel Alliance :D
- On a more serious note, i believe the International teams, FXO, TL;, EG dignitas etc etc, Should start thinking of creating an organization, SC2CON / KESPA are not acceptable SC2 is not just Korea, we are no longer in Broodwar , in the times where the Evil Empire ruled the Kuprulu Sector.
-however something like SC2CON is needed but should not be exclusive or just Korea, such thing is unacceptable, GJ FXOBOSS. :D
-PS. : I officially declare SC2CON "EVIL EMPIRE" from now on.
Yeah why Cant Foreign teams create a different body? I didnt follow BW, but it does seem that Sc2 is much more worldwide than BW
On August 14 2011 14:05 DarkDolphin wrote: You gotta do what you gotta do, Starcraft 2 is no longer "Just Korea" , if that was the case we would be run by the Evil Empire ( Kespa ) Good Job FXO.
-SC2CON = Evil Empire.
-FXO = Rebel Alliance :D
- On a more serious note, i believe the International teams, FXO, TL;, EG dignitas etc etc, Should start thinking of creating an organization, SC2CON / KESPA are not acceptable SC2 is not just Korea, we are no longer in Broodwar , in the times where the Evil Empire ruled the Kuprulu Sector.
-however something like SC2CON is needed but should not be exclusive or just Korea, such thing is unacceptable, GJ FXOBOSS. :D
-PS. : I officially declare SC2CON "EVIL EMPIRE" from now on.
Yeah why Cant Foreign teams create a different body? I didnt follow BW, but it does seem that Sc2 is much more worldwide than BW
I don't think you should release something like this when everything isn't clear. Too many misunderstandings already and all it does is just put a bad face on sc2con when you're still not completely sure of the situation yourself.
On August 15 2011 02:54 denzelz wrote: SC2Con only needed to exist because of stuff like the EG-Puma incident. Still, it's a little weird for an organization to threaten another prominent team in Korea.
No organization would be able to stop that "incident" because it's legal and completely allowed. Odd choice for an example.
On August 15 2011 04:32 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't think you should release something like this when everything isn't clear. Too many misunderstandings already and all it does is just put a bad face on sc2con when you're still not completely sure of the situation yourself.
This happens in any walk of life friend. It's publicity -- Tabloids, movies, electronics, there is always something that isn't quite clear but it's brought to attention.
On August 15 2011 04:32 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't think you should release something like this when everything isn't clear. Too many misunderstandings already and all it does is just put a bad face on sc2con when you're still not completely sure of the situation yourself.
He's showing them that this behaviour is unacceptable and will be exposed.
Putting these things out in the open and not letting them do as they please behind the scenes is the very best way to combat SC2con trying to coerce and threaten the teams they're supposed to protect. Show them that their actions have consequences that will be brought to the attention of everyone in the community.
I don't agree with the way he did it. We're still completely left in the dark and all we can do is take his word for it that it was blackmail/threats. There's no description beyond that of what they actually said or did and we can't really judge the situation at all for ourselves.
On August 15 2011 05:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't agree with the way he did it. We're still completely left in the dark and all we can do is take his word for it that it was blackmail/threats. There's no description beyond that of what they actually said or did and we can't really judge the situation at all for ourselves.
On August 15 2011 05:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't agree with the way he did it. We're still completely left in the dark and all we can do is take his word for it that it was blackmail/threats. There's no description beyond that of what they actually said or did and we can't really judge the situation at all for ourselves.
Bet you keep coming back to see, right?
Not really since they said they wouldn't really release anything more until september when they meet. >.>
Wow I can't believe there's blackmailing and threats now, seriously wtf is going on in KR. Hopefully everything gets settled soon, nice decision making there BoSs.
On August 15 2011 05:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't agree with the way he did it. We're still completely left in the dark and all we can do is take his word for it that it was blackmail/threats. There's no description beyond that of what they actually said or did and we can't really judge the situation at all for ourselves.
As it stands now, it is an information: FXO is leaving and at the same time it's a statement from FXO: We had some very serious issues with a person from sc2con and that is why we left. A meeting will be held in september between sc2con and FXO to seek a memorable solution.
Both of those are perfectly fine reasons for making a thread. Reading FXOpen/FXOBoss's comments and seeing how he responded it seems the damagecontrol-meeting was set up after this thread aired. The original reasons for posting seems to have been their denying of negotiation and rediculous "demands". By turning the dispute public and implying a litigatory solution could come into play he forced sc2con to make a statement and announce a damagecontrol-meeting + making the rest of the organisation aware of the dispute. Those reasons seems logical and it is absolutely necessary to put public pressure on sc2con if they denied any internal dialogue. Because of the possibility of a courtcase or even a compromise at the meeting he doesn't want to reveal any details or proof (reasons stated in other posts in this thread).
Short: The post is not primarily for us, but have been edited to be so. FXOBoss seems to have deemed it necessary to make it public, that there is a dispute and thereby force sc2con to damagecontrol and start a dialogue.
On August 14 2011 15:19 Sawamura wrote: I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
I just wanted to say two things to everyone posting in threads like this. If you are not willing to read the entire OP and maybe the thread too ... you will not have all the information that is given to you and in my opinion you should shut the fuck up if you start throwing around with monkey-poo. I was hasty in my posts before, but at least i was reading up on all the information that was given to me at the given time. So my opinion might be wrong in retrospect, but it i will not regret making them, at that given time.
Now to the poster i quoted. This should be a bannable offense on TL in my opinion. If you dont read the whole OP and the answers given in this particular thread by the op, than you should not be allowed to make statements like these. For me this person is either not very good at reading or just wants to insult the OP for the sake of insulting.
Answers i could give to this individual after reading this thread for 5 mins.
1. OGS-TL + OGS-SK, MVP-COL, FXO-FOU. Successfull ventures between korean teams and "foreigners". MVP-COL beeing after a lot of the drama coming up these days. 2. Choya is korean. And no he is not evil. He is the one beeing harrased. 3. Your tone is not appropriate. 4. Given that every fucking organisation or individual had trouble figuring out who the fuck is behind sc2con and who the fuck gives the calls and who the fuck acts like a dumbass (i love both rets), it should be clear by now, that the sc2con is not transparent at all. It should also be clear the the korean sc2 scene as a whole needs a representative, to yeah you guessed it, represnt it in matters with foreign organisations. All the drama that came up latetly seems to be generated by the fact, that the "koreans" dont show enough of respect towards the "foreigners". Now hear me out on this. It is clear as day, that "we" have the money. We have the tournaments, for now at least, but still they dont even give enough of a shit so that there could be someone to talk to if you want to fucking make a tournament with korean participants, or invest in a korean team. How come the whole korean scene seems not to have at least one person an "foreigner" could talk to directly, with answers that would be binding. Its not like every tournament asks for too much. Learn english ffs. Thats what most of us did, so we could survive in a globalized world. I dont expect them to have a represantatives for all the tournaments (MLG+NASL-english, IEM-german, Dreamhack-swedish, Assembly-finnish) One fucking guy that could give you answers that actually mean anything and that can speak korean and english is not too much to ask for. Get moving or you will be left behind and bought afterwards. Thats what happens in the real world no matter how hard you try to prevent it. SC2Con is supposed to be this "one person, or organisation, but they fail miserably at this"!!! 5. It was clearly stated why the op could not provide all the evidence he had, in case a legal confrontation would come up. If you had read the op and the answers to the questions, you would know this.
@ FXOboss 6. If you could do me just one favor FXOboss, please tell Choya to not give up. I know that a lot of korean teams had troubles with sponsors and money, so after hearing that you picked up FOU i hoped that Choya and his team could get a break on the hard times. I hoped his wishes would come true, so that he would have the money and the time to just worry about making his team stronger. Apperently that was not case. I really hope that after this whole issue Choya and FXO+FOU ,meaning the FXO-team as a whole, can go back to training and building a strong team without having to worry about money (meals) and drama. Who the fuck they think they are to tell you how you (and your sponsors) should name and manage your team or your uniforms. Stand strong and dont bow down. They might hate you for it, but they will also respect you (random knowlegde eastern europe vs asia doing busines ^-^).
On August 14 2011 15:19 Sawamura wrote: I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
I just wanted to say two things to everyone posting in threads like this. If you are not willing to read the entire OP and maybe the thread too ... you will not have all the information that is given to you and in my opinion you should shut the fuck up if you start throwing around with monkey-poo. I was hasty in my posts before, but at least i was reading up on all the information that was given to me at the given time. So my opinion might be wrong in retrospect, but it i will not regret making them, at that given time.
Now to the poster i quoted. This should be a bannable offense on TL in my opinion. If you dont read the whole OP and the answers given in this particular thread by the op, than you should not be allowed to make statements like these. For me this person is either not very good at reading or just wants to insult the OP for the sake of insulting.
Answers i could give to this individual after reading this thread for 5 mins.
1. OGS-TL + OGS-SK, MVP-COL, FXO-FOU. Successfull ventures between korean teams and "foreigners". MVP-COL beeing after a lot of the drama coming up these days. 2. Choya is korean. And no he is not evil. He is the one beeing harrased. 3. Your tone is not appropriate. 4. Given that every fucking organisation or individual had trouble figuring out who the fuck is behind sc2con and who the fuck gives the calls and who the fuck acts like a dumbass (i love both rets), it should be clear by now, that the sc2con is not transparent at all. It should also be clear the the korean sc2 scene as a whole needs a representative, to yeah you guessed it, represnt it in matters with foreign organisations. All the drama that came up latetly seems to be generated by the fact, that the "koreans" dont show enough of respect towards the "foreigners". Now hear me out on this. It is clear as day, that "we" have the money. We have the tournaments, for now at least, but still they dont even give enough of a shit so that there could be someone to talk to if you want to fucking make a tournament with korean participants, or invest in a korean team. How come the whole korean scene seems not to have at least one person an "foreigner" could talk to directly, with answers that would be binding. Its not like every tournament asks for too much. Learn english ffs. Thats what most of us did, so we could survive in a globalized world. I dont expect them to have a represantatives for all the tournaments (MLG+NASL-english, IEM-german, Dreamhack-swedish, Assembly-finnish) One fucking guy that could give you answers that actually mean anything and that can speak korean and english is not too much to ask for. Get moving or you will be left behind and bought afterwards. Thats what happens in the real world no matter how hard you try to prevent it. 5. It was clearly stated why the op could not provide all the evidence he had, in case a legal confrontation would come up. If you had read the op and the answers to the questions, you would know this.
@ FXOboss 6. If you could do me just one favor FXOboss, please tell Choya to not give up. I know that a lot of korean teams had troubles with sponsors and money, so after hearing that you picked up FOU i hoped that Choya and his team could get a break on the hard times. I hoped his wishes would come true, so that he would have the money and the time to just worry about making his team stronger. Apperently that was not case. I really hope that after this whole issue Choya and FXO+FOU ,meaning the FXO-team as a whole, can go back to training and building a strong team without having to worry about money (meals) and drama. Who the fuck they think they are to tell you how you (and your sponsors) should name and manage your team or your uniforms. Stand strong and dont bow down. They might hate you for it, but they will also respect you (random knowlegde eastern europe vs asia ^-^).
Wow... this post is amazing.
Talk about throwing monkey shit without all the information and then claiming that koreans only care about foreigners and their tournaments for the money and that they don't show respect when it says right in the fucking OP that this isn't a dispute between the korean players and teams at all.
He even has the audacity to call out the person he quoted and to say his tone was inappropriate after posting this.
On August 14 2011 15:19 Sawamura wrote: I don't like how this is visible at all it could be fabricated lies let's see if you truly wanted to come clean at least show us the messages you receive during all the threats so we know how they man handle in to certain position and over all it's all one sided and everyone has something to say when they are not in front of the person they are talking too . If you are going to talk about P&C than these news should have been kept at low profile and not defaming the other party which is sc2 con without any evidence or so .
I like how you guys paint the picture where foreigners are the good guy and anything korean related are kespa 2.0 keep it up this is probably why there can never be any ventures between the foreign scene and the korean .
I just wanted to say two things to everyone posting in threads like this. If you are not willing to read the entire OP and maybe the thread too ... you will not have all the information that is given to you and in my opinion you should shut the fuck up if you start throwing around with monkey-poo. I was hasty in my posts before, but at least i was reading up on all the information that was given to me at the given time. So my opinion might be wrong in retrospect, but it i will not regret making them, at that given time.
Now to the poster i quoted. This should be a bannable offense on TL in my opinion. If you dont read the whole OP and the answers given in this particular thread by the op, than you should not be allowed to make statements like these. For me this person is either not very good at reading or just wants to insult the OP for the sake of insulting.
Answers i could give to this individual after reading this thread for 5 mins.
1. OGS-TL + OGS-SK, MVP-COL, FXO-FOU. Successfull ventures between korean teams and "foreigners". MVP-COL beeing after a lot of the drama coming up these days. 2. Choya is korean. And no he is not evil. He is the one beeing harrased. 3. Your tone is not appropriate. 4. Given that every fucking organisation or individual had trouble figuring out who the fuck is behind sc2con and who the fuck gives the calls and who the fuck acts like a dumbass (i love both rets), it should be clear by now, that the sc2con is not transparent at all. It should also be clear the the korean sc2 scene as a whole needs a representative, to yeah you guessed it, represnt it in matters with foreign organisations. All the drama that came up latetly seems to be generated by the fact, that the "koreans" dont show enough of respect towards the "foreigners". Now hear me out on this. It is clear as day, that "we" have the money. We have the tournaments, for now at least, but still they dont even give enough of a shit so that there could be someone to talk to if you want to fucking make a tournament with korean participants, or invest in a korean team. How come the whole korean scene seems not to have at least one person an "foreigner" could talk to directly, with answers that would be binding. Its not like every tournament asks for too much. Learn english ffs. Thats what most of us did, so we could survive in a globalized world. I dont expect them to have a represantatives for all the tournaments (MLG+NASL-english, IEM-german, Dreamhack-swedish, Assembly-finnish) One fucking guy that could give you answers that actually mean anything and that can speak korean and english is not too much to ask for. Get moving or you will be left behind and bought afterwards. Thats what happens in the real world no matter how hard you try to prevent it. 5. It was clearly stated why the op could not provide all the evidence he had, in case a legal confrontation would come up. If you had read the op and the answers to the questions, you would know this.
@ FXOboss 6. If you could do me just one favor FXOboss, please tell Choya to not give up. I know that a lot of korean teams had troubles with sponsors and money, so after hearing that you picked up FOU i hoped that Choya and his team could get a break on the hard times. I hoped his wishes would come true, so that he would have the money and the time to just worry about making his team stronger. Apperently that was not case. I really hope that after this whole issue Choya and FXO+FOU ,meaning the FXO-team as a whole, can go back to training and building a strong team without having to worry about money (meals) and drama. Who the fuck they think they are to tell you how you (and your sponsors) should name and manage your team or your uniforms. Stand strong and dont bow down. They might hate you for it, but they will also respect you (random knowlegde eastern europe vs asia ^-^).
Wow... this post is amazing.
Talk about throwing monkey shit without all the information and then claiming that koreans only care about foreigners and their tournaments for the money and that they don't show respect when it says right in the fucking OP that this isn't a dispute between the korean players and teams at all.
He even has the audacity to call out the person he quoted and to say his tone was inappropriate after posting this.
Maybe i did not make myself clear. I dont mean that koreans only care about the money. Not at all. I dont throw any koreans under the bus. I will edit my post to make it clearer what i meant. All i am saying is, that when all the korean teams chose an organisation that represents it interests and its wishes, than they should at least make an effort to be understood the way they want to be understood. I dont mean all the korean teams i mean the SC2Con. It should be possible to speak to the teams directly or to their represantative without some "randome" dude who has to translate their statements on playxp. Sry if i did not make myself clear. I love the korean scene.
On August 14 2011 23:48 DarkDolphin wrote: Evil Empire...
... You've posted this twice before and have been told several times to stop, yet you continue... Forcing memes is not the way to make memes. You are essentially doing everything in your power to stop it from catching on... Which leads me to seriously wonder why you are doing it at all.
Anyways I am terribly sorry I am not trying to derail this thread by any means... However I'm not sure if I read it correctly, but did Boss say the meeting wouldn't even take place until the 10th of September?
FXO is the fucking shit. I've seriously been waiting for a company that practices straight up business -- with proper ethics and manners of course -- but one that doesn't just pussyfoot around terrible decisions like NASL has. Someone needs to wake up these Korean organizations and rulings, and FXO can do it if anyone can.
I become a bigger fan of you guys every time I see you guys do new things.
On August 15 2011 06:54 Vei wrote: FXO is the fucking shit. I've seriously been waiting for a company that practices straight up business -- with proper ethics and manners of course -- but one that doesn't just pussyfoot around terrible decisions like NASL has. Someone needs to wake up these Korean organizations and rulings, and FXO can do it if anyone can.
I become a bigger fan of you guys every time I see you guys do new things.
I think both NASL and FXO acted similarly given their respective situations. The only difference is FXO has more history so people are more inclined to believe them and more inclined to think well of them, whereas NASL is still new so people are still suspicious. But I would not say NASL "Pussy footed around terrible decisions."
This probably all but confirms why they left the NASL. Why else would blackmail and threats be thrown around concerning players who were just acquired by foreign acquisition? They can say what they want; it’s not because of it etc. But then again, coming out and saying it out right would be bad for their image.
And the bottom line, people do things when they are scared of losing what they got. Televised SC is bombing in Korea now, and the money is running out from the sponsors because of it. So they are trying to consolidate what they got left, and build it from the ground up. Sounds like classic Korean tactics and insecurity. This is what they have always done when times have gotten tough. Go into their shell, and tell everyone else to get out.
One more blow to the korean scene. I hate the whole FXO evolution plan. All the wrong steps. Good foreigner team ---> Bad foreigner team + Bad korean team.
On August 15 2011 07:27 Abrafred wrote: One more blow to the korean scene. I hate the whole FXO evolution plan. All the wrong steps. Good foreigner team ---> Bad foreigner team + Bad korean team.
scFOU isnt a bad team. They have some great players. But, I kind of agree with you on the bad foreigner team bit. But, hopefully training there will help them. I know QXC is working hard. I hope he gets out of his bracket at Raleigh and shows what he can truely do.
On August 15 2011 07:27 Abrafred wrote: One more blow to the korean scene. I hate the whole FXO evolution plan. All the wrong steps. Good foreigner team ---> Bad foreigner team + Bad korean team.
scFOU isnt a bad team. They have some great players. But, I kind of agree with you on the bad foreigner team bit. But, hopefully training there will help them. I know QXC is working hard. I hope he gets out of his bracket at Raleigh and shows what he can truely do.
sCfOu is a actually a player though. Probably the best player of the team although he is slumping lately. FXO also has GuMiho and Leenock who are pretty descent but overall as a team they are nowhere close to the rest. The way I saw the FXO foreigner team, there was qxc, Moonglade and Sheth. Guess what. A third remains.
On August 15 2011 07:27 Abrafred wrote: One more blow to the korean scene. I hate the whole FXO evolution plan. All the wrong steps. Good foreigner team ---> Bad foreigner team + Bad korean team.
scFOU isnt a bad team. They have some great players. But, I kind of agree with you on the bad foreigner team bit. But, hopefully training there will help them. I know QXC is working hard. I hope he gets out of his bracket at Raleigh and shows what he can truely do.
sCfOu is a actually a player though. Probably the best player of the team although he is slumping lately. FXO also has GuMiho and Leenock who are pretty descent but overall as a team they are nowhere close to the rest. The way I saw the FXO foreigner team, there was qxc, Moonglade and Sheth. Guess what. A third remains.
Yeah, I dont know why I put SC in front of there. I think it was automatic. Anyways, well, Leenoc is young man. An up and comer and he destroys terran. His decision making and other matches could be better, but in a way he has also got a raw deal having really tough opponents. But, I can see him really becoming great. They also have Choya, which, owned it up at the last MLG.
On the FXO side, well, sheth is awesome, cant really say anything bad about that guy. But Moonglade I think is overrated and probably should have left the team.
wow this is rediculous, isn't it pretty evident that koreans are jockeying for position(multiple press releases on players leaving leagues and issues with foreigner/korean teams) and trying to eliminate foreigner interaction at all? sad times, and very narrow minded, someone needs to get their ass over there and kick some ass
On August 15 2011 07:27 Abrafred wrote: One more blow to the korean scene. I hate the whole FXO evolution plan. All the wrong steps. Good foreigner team ---> Bad foreigner team + Bad korean team.
scFOU isnt a bad team. They have some great players. But, I kind of agree with you on the bad foreigner team bit. But, hopefully training there will help them. I know QXC is working hard. I hope he gets out of his bracket at Raleigh and shows what he can truely do.
sCfOu is a actually a player though. Probably the best player of the team although he is slumping lately. FXO also has GuMiho and Leenock who are pretty descent but overall as a team they are nowhere close to the rest. The way I saw the FXO foreigner team, there was qxc, Moonglade and Sheth. Guess what. A third remains.
Yeah, I dont know why I put SC in front of there. I think it was automatic. Anyways, well, Leenoc is young man. An up and comer and he destroys terran. His decision making and other matches could be better, but in a way he has also got a raw deal having really tough opponents. But, I can see him really becoming great. They also have Choya, which, owned it up at the last MLG.
On the FXO side, well, sheth is awesome, cant really say anything bad about that guy. But Moonglade I think is overrated and probably should have left the team.
Um you do realize that both Sheth and Moonglade are no longer with FXO, right? In fact Sheth is a member of Team Liquid, I think TL might have put up a little post about that around here somewhere.....
On August 15 2011 07:27 Abrafred wrote: One more blow to the korean scene. I hate the whole FXO evolution plan. All the wrong steps. Good foreigner team ---> Bad foreigner team + Bad korean team.
scFOU isnt a bad team. They have some great players. But, I kind of agree with you on the bad foreigner team bit. But, hopefully training there will help them. I know QXC is working hard. I hope he gets out of his bracket at Raleigh and shows what he can truely do.
sCfOu is a actually a player though. Probably the best player of the team although he is slumping lately. FXO also has GuMiho and Leenock who are pretty descent but overall as a team they are nowhere close to the rest. The way I saw the FXO foreigner team, there was qxc, Moonglade and Sheth. Guess what. A third remains.
Yeah, I dont know why I put SC in front of there. I think it was automatic. Anyways, well, Leenoc is young man. An up and comer and he destroys terran. His decision making and other matches could be better, but in a way he has also got a raw deal having really tough opponents. But, I can see him really becoming great. They also have Choya, which, owned it up at the last MLG.
On the FXO side, well, sheth is awesome, cant really say anything bad about that guy. But Moonglade I think is overrated and probably should have left the team.
Um you do realize that both Sheth and Moonglade are no longer with FXO, right? In fact Sheth is a member of Team Liquid, I think TL might have put up a little post about that around here somewhere.....
I meant in retrospect, and I was speaking about the players in general.
more baseless accusations. THEY ALL DID SOMETHING REAL BAD....but i can't tell you what it is.
I BET you its nothing. Why is it neccearry for everyone to have a go at S2con? All they are trying to do is unify the teams in terms of decisions. If you have a problem with one person, deal with that one person, don't go and vilify an entire organisation becuase you got upset.
Leave the conference by all means but all you did was just throw threats of public defamation right back at them. really good for business.
On August 15 2011 07:27 Abrafred wrote: One more blow to the korean scene. I hate the whole FXO evolution plan. All the wrong steps. Good foreigner team ---> Bad foreigner team + Bad korean team.
scFOU isnt a bad team. They have some great players. But, I kind of agree with you on the bad foreigner team bit. But, hopefully training there will help them. I know QXC is working hard. I hope he gets out of his bracket at Raleigh and shows what he can truely do.
sCfOu is a actually a player though. Probably the best player of the team although he is slumping lately. FXO also has GuMiho and Leenock who are pretty descent but overall as a team they are nowhere close to the rest. The way I saw the FXO foreigner team, there was qxc, Moonglade and Sheth. Guess what. A third remains.
Yeah, I dont know why I put SC in front of there. I think it was automatic. Anyways, well, Leenoc is young man. An up and comer and he destroys terran. His decision making and other matches could be better, but in a way he has also got a raw deal having really tough opponents. But, I can see him really becoming great. They also have Choya, which, owned it up at the last MLG.
On the FXO side, well, sheth is awesome, cant really say anything bad about that guy. But Moonglade I think is overrated and probably should have left the team.
Um you do realize that both Sheth and Moonglade are no longer with FXO, right? In fact Sheth is a member of Team Liquid, I think TL might have put up a little post about that around here somewhere.....
or maybe it was the blue shirt that said TLAF-Liquid that Sheth was wearing at Anaheim? just maybe
On August 14 2011 14:14 ketomai wrote: What are the major benefits of staying in sc2con at the moment anyways? Seems like there's only baggage atm :p.
Good job Boss, big fan of what you're doing as always.
That is what I'm wondering as well. From what I understand exclusion from S2con has no affect on being able to play GOM leagues, so why even join it? All it seems to do is put additional restrictions on teams.
On August 14 2011 14:03 proxima_ wrote: wow, things are getting shaky over there in kr
New battle grounds for a video game. More and newer money to be earned, so there will obviously be things like this taking place. Kespa isn't clean either, but they're there.
There is an interesting amount of support for the Koreans here on TL, on recent issues (mostly basing this on the threads on: EG/Puma, koreans leaving NASL , this thread). While I definitely wouldn't assume they are guilty straight away, I wouldn't assume that just because they are Koreans means they are always right and the west is out to screw them.
And FXO has always seem like a good organization to me, and I like the way boss has represented himself here.
On August 15 2011 10:55 ExO_ wrote: There is an interesting amount of support for the Koreans here on TL, on recent issues (mostly basing this on the threads on: EG/Puma, koreans leaving NASL , this thread). While I definitely wouldn't assume they are guilty straight away, I wouldn't assume that just because they are Koreans means they are always right and the west is out to screw them.
And FXO has always seem like a good organization to me, and I like the way boss has represented himself here.
There's support because the foreigner scene has either been extremely vague like this instance, or extremely unprofessional like the EG/Puma thing and now the NASL. The foreigner scene, if it is serious about wanting to grow, needs to learn how to act like professionals (this isn't like streaming, you can't just say/do whatever you want), and/or hire PR people.
EDIT: But yes, I'd agree FXO has been a good organization.
On August 15 2011 10:55 ExO_ wrote: There is an interesting amount of support for the Koreans here on TL, on recent issues (mostly basing this on the threads on: EG/Puma, koreans leaving NASL , this thread). While I definitely wouldn't assume they are guilty straight away, I wouldn't assume that just because they are Koreans means they are always right and the west is out to screw them.
And FXO has always seem like a good organization to me, and I like the way boss has represented himself here.
There's support because the foreigner scene has either been extremely vague like this instance, or extremely unprofessional like the EG/Puma thing and now the NASL. The foreigner scene, if it is serious about wanting to grow, needs to learn how to act like professionals (this isn't like streaming, you can't just say/do whatever you want), and/or hire PR people.
EDIT: But yes, I'd agree FXO has been a good organization.
BoSs's post was originally a lot more explicit; it's been edited back in the interests of salvaging relations since now s2con wants to talk things out with FXO (whereas before the one causing the troubles had not contacted BoSs after Choya specifically told them to). There are too many people (read: any) in this thread thinking that FXO is just jumping on the "bash s2con" bandwagon or that this has anything to do with NASL (they're not and it doesn't). Obviously the post got s2con's attention and that's good enough for now.
On August 15 2011 10:55 ExO_ wrote: There is an interesting amount of support for the Koreans here on TL, on recent issues (mostly basing this on the threads on: EG/Puma, koreans leaving NASL , this thread). While I definitely wouldn't assume they are guilty straight away, I wouldn't assume that just because they are Koreans means they are always right and the west is out to screw them.
And FXO has always seem like a good organization to me, and I like the way boss has represented himself here.
There's support because the foreigner scene has either been extremely vague like this instance, or extremely unprofessional like the EG/Puma thing and now the NASL. The foreigner scene, if it is serious about wanting to grow, needs to learn how to act like professionals (this isn't like streaming, you can't just say/do whatever you want), and/or hire PR people.
EDIT: But yes, I'd agree FXO has been a good organization.
BoSs's post was originally a lot more explicit; it's been edited back in the interests of salvaging relations since now s2con wants to talk things out with FXO (whereas before the one causing the troubles had not contacted BoSs after Choya specifically told them to). There are too many people (read: any) in this thread thinking that FXO is just jumping on the "bash s2con" bandwagon or that this has anything to do with NASL (they're not and it doesn't). Obviously the post got s2con's attention and that's good enough for now.
Yeah I just tuned in to this thread and I figured as much. The early pages are all "FXO WOOO" and the later ones all turn to Korean support so I figured the original post explained much more. Instead of making any judgements on zero information I'm going to wait until I actually know what's happening, hope something pops up soon!
On August 15 2011 14:48 Space Invader wrote: why would you make this public before talking to them properly first...
Because:
On August 15 2011 12:55 Saraf wrote:BoSs's post was originally a lot more explicit; it's been edited back in the interests of salvaging relations since now s2con wants to talk things out with FXO (whereas before the one causing the troubles had not contacted BoSs after Choya specifically told them to). There are too many people (read: any) in this thread thinking that FXO is just jumping on the "bash s2con" bandwagon or that this has anything to do with NASL (they're not and it doesn't). Obviously the post got s2con's attention and that's good enough for now.
Please at least read the page you're posting on -.- Boss couldn't get into contact with the person in question, so he withdrew from SC2Con and made a post explaining the situation here; that got the guy's attention and they arranged a meeting, so Boss changed the OP so that he could hear the guy's side of the story first.
On August 15 2011 10:55 ExO_ wrote: There is an interesting amount of support for the Koreans here on TL, on recent issues (mostly basing this on the threads on: EG/Puma, koreans leaving NASL , this thread). While I definitely wouldn't assume they are guilty straight away, I wouldn't assume that just because they are Koreans means they are always right and the west is out to screw them.
And FXO has always seem like a good organization to me, and I like the way boss has represented himself here.
There's support because the foreigner scene has either been extremely vague like this instance, or extremely unprofessional like the EG/Puma thing and now the NASL. The foreigner scene, if it is serious about wanting to grow, needs to learn how to act like professionals (this isn't like streaming, you can't just say/do whatever you want), and/or hire PR people.
EDIT: But yes, I'd agree FXO has been a good organization.
And how is the Korean scene in any way professional (except Gom/GSL)?
They seem not to be able/willing to pay even rather small amounts to send their players abroad. They seem not to be able to organise a fucking hotel room for their players (or/and) read contracts and therefore don't do it. They seemed not to be able to put their players under contract and after that act all whiney when someone takes a player from them (which still isn't nice but perfectly legitimate from a proffessional standpoint). . .
Seriously, how would you as a "professional" company deal with organisations like the Korean teams which, as it seems to me, have like no interest to pay anything and rather just sit convenient in seoul in their own little microcosmos waiting for some invites which pay them for nearly all their expenses....
I am sorry if someone already have asked but what is going to happen to the former fOu players? Are they forced to follow FXO because of thiere finnancial situation? And I know it sounds bad when I say it like that.
I have a lot of respect for FXOBoss. He's really stirring up the Korean scene with decisions like this - it's just what we need! A revolution is coming!
i thnk this is another glaring reason why Unions and Play Association shouldnt be allowed into E-Sports they ruin the industry. In the pat couple of week this has looked so bad for the e-sports community. with TSL and now this. WTF is going on????
are they trying to muscle profits from teams or something?
On August 15 2011 22:41 Vindubs wrote: i thnk this is another glaring reason why Unions and Play Association shouldnt be allowed into E-Sports they ruin the industry. In the pat couple of week this has looked so bad for the e-sports community. with TSL and now this. WTF is going on????
are they trying to muscle profits from teams or something?
This has nothing to do with unions. Unions are needed to protect the rights of those who can't take on big corporations by themselves.
On August 16 2011 00:02 MrCon wrote: Any news since the OP ? People are talking about Choya and all but I don't know what it is about TT.
The choya mentions are coming from the original OP which detailed the threats/pressure from a certain SC2con representative towards choya and FXO.
There's been no news since then, and there won't be until Boss and SC2con have met at the negotiation table.
I read the thread at 10x speed, iiuc the problem is FXO wanted to rename FOU to FXO and sc2con are trying to prevent that ?
SC2con wanted to meddle in team internal affairs, such as name and logo design, that much was mentioned in the OP. While these were apparently amongst the smaller issues Boss could talk publicly about, it's clear that the representative from SC2con was trying to exert SC2con's (non-existant) influence over Korean teams (via nightly phone calls with insults, threats and blackmail) and FXO is putting their foot down and taking a stand against this.
On August 16 2011 00:02 MrCon wrote: Any news since the OP ? People are talking about Choya and all but I don't know what it is about TT.
The choya mentions are coming from the original OP which detailed the threats/pressure from a certain SC2con representative towards choya and FXO.
There's been no news since then, and there won't be until Boss and SC2con have met at the negotiation table.
I read the thread at 10x speed, iiuc the problem is FXO wanted to rename FOU to FXO and sc2con are trying to prevent that ?
SC2con wanted to meddle in team internal affairs, such as name and logo design, that much was mentioned in the OP. While these were apparently amongst the smaller issues Boss could talk publicly about, it's clear that the representative from SC2con was trying to exert SC2con's (non-existant) influence over Korean teams (via nightly phone calls with insults, threats and blackmail) and FXO is putting their foot down and taking a stand against this.
Ok thanks, as the OP was edited and basically contains nothing now, and no one quoted it, this whole thread is very confusing (as everything related to sc2con but that's another story)
I think as much as any team FXO have been great representatives for the non-Koreans recently, along with the likes of HuK and Jinro, and I hope that this is something they can get past. The last thign anyone wants is all their hard work in korea to come to nothing because of backstabbing and political maneuvering.
On August 14 2011 19:10 JayDee_ wrote: It's like "Lord of The Flies" over there. I think the problem is this is all being ran by a bunch of young adults, none of which have extensive experience with business management.
If you're referring to NASL's Management Team, you'd be incorrect.
I hope that the people working inside sc2con can get things under control. I have a feeling that it's not any of the higher level management causing these problems. It looks like there's not enough internal protocol about how things need to be dealt with, such as communication between team management and sc2con, and the people doing the communicating are not being monitored well enough. It's sad to see this kind of drama because it can only hurt e-sports. Hopefully they get things under control and resolved properly.
On August 16 2011 17:30 Shinobi1982 wrote: I'm not sure if this is posted yet but from Milkis twitter: OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee FXO Korea is now officially just FXO. http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3298854 1 hour ago
It was never officially called FXO Korea, that was just a miscommunication from choya who mistakenly used this internal reference in an official statement. It's always been FXO, one big team spread over several locations and headquarters.
It'd be something like calling the team members of EG moving into the team house "EG Arizona". It's just EG. It's just FXO.
But I'm glad the matter has been cleared up now in any case. It means that SC2con (wisely) backed off and let the team decide on their own, as it should be.
EPT
((((
