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On August 12 2011 10:27 00Visor wrote:
Maybe they should only make an 8-player-final and then do some groupplay to get some games to show and not pay this expensive trip for maybe just one match.
With 8 players NASL should be able to pay all travel expenses.
They already offered to pay the travel expenses, the break down of expenses is what it cost nasl to bring them over for the finals.
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On August 12 2011 10:27 dAPhREAk wrote:i predict in ten to fifteen more pages of posts, someone will argue that NASL did this on purpose to make it so idra can win a tournament due to his association with EG and incontrol. calling it now. conspiracy theory ftw.
Nah there's eurpoeans and Sen, so he still can't win anyway.
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I bet Sen and white-ra will win it all! wowwwwwww
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A little bummed out about this, but only a little. As long as they improve the production value, have smooth streams, and perhaps have good guest casters come on regularly with Gretorp (not just for the finals) like Day9, Wheat, or even Chill if he still does that.
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On August 12 2011 10:28 MildSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 10:25 Haustka wrote:
NASL make it sounds like all Koreans did was threaten NASL(when it was necessary for them to have that sort of money to even get an air plane ticket, which is normally over $1000) to pay them and declined after third trial? well did you know GTSL happens every month almost none stop? Why is NASL make it sound like its all Koreans need to apologize and should always come to USA whenever they call them. Koreans arent slaves. Perhaps NASL shouldve made better offer from the beganning not trying to test Koreans to see if they accept it or not. This is not Korean players but rather NASL's fault. I absolutely agree with you. The tone of this post from NASL seems very arrogant. NASL clearly wants to stigmitize the Koreans, isolate and decrease their relevance since NASL can't actually get them there. By stirring anti-Korean sentiments, by antagnozing them, viewers will feel "nationalistic" (consider all foreign countries as a nation in this case) and watch the NASL solely out of spite for the Koreans and sympathize for NASL.
And then people eat it up without being critical. Is sensationalism the word?
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On August 12 2011 10:28 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I would just like to remind everyone that we've basically only heard one side of the story here. People are always quick to jump to conclusions, but it often turns out that things aren't always what they seem.
One thing for sure is that travel is very expensive, and traveling from Korea is more expensive than from Europe or anywhere in North America.
Not surprising to see the anti-korean mob mentality at full force tonight. People love to jump to conclusions and put the blame on one party(Just look at the TSL drama between the coach and its players). It is most likely both parties involved have valid reasons not to continue.
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By reading this thread I have to say that I'm really surprised and disappointed to see that so many people are posting comments such as "fuck koreans". Wow. What happened to this community?
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On August 12 2011 10:11 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 10:08 Condor Hero wrote:On August 12 2011 09:11 hdan wrote:
Im quite happy that the koreans have pulled out, if they cant afford to send theyre players to a tournments with prize pools that big so be it, some money in foreigner pockets is okay by me, besides, puma hero rain and the FXO guys will probably be up there if they can take the places.
You're not at all concerned that we are essentially getting a worse product? Foreigner based tournaments can also make up for huge exciting games. Remember the first Dreamhack with Naama against Mana, with 5 super exciting games while the Korean cheesed themselves to death in the GSL? Last tournament being assembly, were Huk and Nada were thrown out extremely easy, yet it had SO many awesome awesome games. TSL was fantastic and exciting throughout, if it was Korean vs Korean, foreigner vs Korean or foreigner vs foreigner. Korean = Automatically exciting games isn't necessarily true. Foreigner only doesn't mean there are only Bronze-Leagues having a cripple fight.
I never said foreigners = shitty games.
I find people like Nani/Huk/Idra vs Koreans to be even more exciting than Korean vs Korean but I say we are getting a worse products because some of the best players in the world won't be participating.
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On August 12 2011 10:27 dAPhREAk wrote:i predict in ten to fifteen more pages of posts, someone will argue that NASL did this on purpose to make it so idra can win a tournament due to his association with EG and incontrol. calling it now. conspiracy theory ftw.
They would have to do a lot more than this for IdrA to win.
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On August 12 2011 10:25 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 10:19 NicolBolas wrote:On August 12 2011 10:16 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 10:11 Sandro wrote:On August 12 2011 10:08 Condor Hero wrote:On August 12 2011 09:11 hdan wrote:
Im quite happy that the koreans have pulled out, if they cant afford to send theyre players to a tournments with prize pools that big so be it, some money in foreigner pockets is okay by me, besides, puma hero rain and the FXO guys will probably be up there if they can take the places.
You're not at all concerned that we are essentially getting a worse product? Not if Western tournaments are made into Korean piggy banks, I don't see teams like Dignitas or EG demanding upwards of 2k for stipends to travel. Really? There were plenty of calls (demands, if you will) to make Code A more accessible to foreign players because it apparently isn't appealing enough as it is. And GOM has actually responded to that by partnering with MLG and handing out invites to pretty much every notable foreigner that shows up in Korea regardless of the exchange program. Considering how brutally hard the qualifiers are, that's quite a reward in itself. Of course, not everybody can make the same demands - there's much more weight to the demands of teams that have the best players in the world than the teams whose players mostly get rolled over every single MLG. Asking for invitations to Code A is rather different from asking for money. No, it really isn't. Without a Code A invitation you could be locked into playing qualifiers for months (think about Bomber, DRG, MMA) before making it in. GOM has essentially cut off up to 2-3 months of expenses for foreign players by handing out Code A invites. Let's not forget that they also provide accommodation and even a direct Code S spot for MLG winner. If you think invites are so cheap, then why not suggest that NASL invites up to 8 Koreans directly to the Top 16 live event? That might just be more appealing to sc2con teams. Besides, the complaint about Code A was specifically that "it's not worth it financially". So nobody asked for invites, it was GOM who came up with that themselves.
You hit the nail on the head on this one. Its NO different then GOM giving "foreigners" special privileges... Watching code A the other night was a joke, there is no question in my mind that Koreans are miles ahead of the rest of the world. If you want to watch inferior play with "home favorites" then NASL just like IPL will give you that. I will have to stick to the GSL and MLG since I want to see pros at the highest lvl...
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On August 12 2011 10:29 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 10:25 Haustka wrote:
NASL make it sounds like all Koreans did was threaten NASL(when it was necessary for them to have that sort of money to even get an air plane ticket, which is normally over $1000) to pay them and declined after third trial? well did you know GTSL happens every month almost none stop? Why is NASL make it sound like its all Koreans need to apologize and should always come to USA whenever they call them. Koreans arent slaves. Perhaps NASL shouldve made better offer from the beganning not trying to test Koreans to see if they accept it or not. This is not Korean players but rather NASL's fault. LOL you serious? Yeah hey we will give you a $1000 in travel money and you will walk away with at least another $1000. Yeah NASL is treating them like slaves. They are treating them like everyone else. You think it was cheap for White Ra or Sen to fly into the finals?
I know Sen probably got there solely on the support from sponsor, not sure about WhiteRa. I also think that all the players gets this new offer, not just Koreans.
But 2k isn't even enough for roundabout trip, let alone hotel fees, food, etc.
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On August 12 2011 08:34 NASL.tv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:31 masterbreti wrote:
tbh good for the Koreans for sticking to their guns.
Has anyone here auctally tried to caculate the cost of a 1 week trip to cali from seoul and back. its damn expensive. Being almost 3k with hotel and airfare and such. For the chance at $500, which would still lose them $500 if NASL paid 2k.
I can understand why the teams would do this tbh. They are not in a healthy state in Korea and of course they would want people to pay, since they can't temselves. I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.
$1,192 for a ticket is just one way though, right? Round trip is usually almost $3,000.
So $2,000 wouldn't nearly be enough.
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On August 12 2011 10:30 AlBundy wrote:
By reading this thread I have to say that I'm really surprised and disappointed to see that so many people are posting comments such as "fuck koreans". Wow. What happened to this community?
Starcraft 2 happened.
=/ People are way to quick to judge, bringing out pitchforks before we hear the entire story. This community used to have way more maturity, now people type "fuck koreans" before they read the first 2 pages.
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On August 12 2011 10:27 dAPhREAk wrote:i predict in ten to fifteen more pages of posts, someone will argue that NASL did this on purpose to make it so idra can win a tournament due to his association with EG and incontrol. calling it now. conspiracy theory ftw.
Sure, I'll bite, what he said. Lol.
In all seriousness though, idra's not the one who needs help in EG to do well in tournaments 
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On August 12 2011 10:23 KaveX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 09:31 D.Devil wrote:
This whole story is really interesting – it has so many thought-provoking aspects to it. My initial thoughts:
1. Do Korean teams have the right approach towards marketing?
It's no news to me that the Korean teams aren't superior to Western ones in terms of business and marketing. However, this whole event says more about their future potential than about their current stance. It should seem natural to everyone that, with SC2's huge global audience, you should aim to present and market your players globally instead of relying only on Korean exposure. Of course, this isn't an easy task for the SC:BW-like Korean teams, but if they haven't yet realized that they need to take on this challenge if they want to stay competitive – then there's something seriously going wrong.
Now, please don't get me wrong: I'm aware that the NASL is only one event of many and it has some issues that make it less attractive to Koreans – I wouldn't even argue if one of the Korean team managers claimed that the audience numbers don't justify backing the NASL. However, Koreans are also pretty rarely seen at other non-Korean events – basically, it's mostly only invited players who show up, with few exceptions. Therefore, I must assume that this observation is true regardless of what exactly happened here.
2. Are the Korean teams good enough at earning money?
Sure, SC2 is having a hard time in South Korea, but nonetheless it simply seems that there is a huge gap between the audience numbers/popularity/success the Korean teams generate and their team budgets. Guess what's going to happen if they fail at securing "appropriate" sponsorships (especially if they negate the importance of the global audience, as mentioned in point 1)? Well, I can assure you none of the top players are going to wear tags like oGs, IM or TSL if that happens (doesn't matter how great their team house practise conditions are).
3. How much influence does the GSL have over the Korean teams?
This being said: We can agree that this whole story sounds kind of weird when being told from NASL's perspective. It makes quite a lot of sense that GOM TV is opposed to the NASL – not only as a direct competitor, but also due to the partnership with MLG. It's also neededless to say that GOM TV has quite a good involvement in the SC2Con and is in a position to influence the teams' decisions strongly. It's not just interesting to see what this means for NASL, but also what it means for other event organizers or the global SC2 structure in general.
4. Is SlayerS going to surpass all other Korean teams soon?
SlayerS is the only Korean team that pays a lot of attention to the global scene and has people working for it who particularly focus on the stuff outside of Korea. It's neither part of the SC2Con and thereby isn't bound to its decisions. This means two things: 1. SlayerS has a lot of potential. 2. There might be a lot of tension between SC2Con and SlayerS, and who knows what consequences that might have.
5. Is this what happens if you're not one of the big players?
The NASL (deservedly) got quite some flack for focusing on the prize money so much instead of building up structures first. Is this already the proof that NASL was too careless? Maybe, I don't know. Let's just point out that neither MLG, nor IEM or DreamHack seem to face similar problems. Could this have been avoided through better correspondance and Korea-targeted business development endeavors? I don't know either. I just know that if I now want to create some huge event which I need to work with Korean teams for, I'd be more than careful. Anyway, it will be really interesting to see what the future holds for NASL. I won't make any predictions at this point, but this could turn out to be really interesting.
6. What role do teams play in SC2 anyway?
In esports' past, teams used to be financially strong market participants which contributed to the esports environment in various ways – and it was pretty much mandatory to be part of a professional team if you wanted to be a successful pro-gamer. Lately, the teams' importance seems to dwindle: There are almost only 1on1 events, the teams usually don't play a huge role, and often the travel expenses are paid for by the organizers anyway. We might be at a crossroads: Either, the teams gather speed and grow to a point at which they are mainly responsible for a player's well-being (and get more attention) – or the events will be forced to work with the players more closely if they want to make sure that the level of competition stays high. This might result in bad things such as league-exclusive contracts though, and in general I'm much more of a fan of the strong-teams model because the more diversified the market is, the better. 5. The NASL is pretty unprofessional, but from what I've read in the OP, this can't be blamed on them. MLG, IEM and DH paid all expenses for the Koreans, that is all.
DH invitational did, DH Summer did not, in fact it was mentioned in the wrap-up post for DH Winter that July and Bomber and such were quite confused because they were used to how it happened at MLG and the DH invitational and so DH Summer had to scramble for accommodation which ended up being ... less then adequate.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=238336 see: The Hotel Problem
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On August 12 2011 10:30 AlBundy wrote:
By reading this thread I have to say that I'm really surprised and disappointed to see that so many people are posting comments such as "fuck koreans". Wow. What happened to this community?
The community has gone to shit. People are more concerned about nationality and pride rather than the awesome amount of content these days.
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At first I was meh, but when I thought about it..
The Koreans don't give foreigners any money to come over. Why should foreigners do the same for Koreans?
(Barring MLG-GSL exchange program)
Granted it raises NASL's value to have Koreans, but.. that's just still not right.
And what exactly is this freaking SC2Con crap? It seemed to just sprout up overnight with the TSL ban; I hadn't ever heard of it before.
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I have to say, I find this extremely disrespectful toward foreign esports. I feel like the NASL was more than reasonable and the fact that they changed their offer several times to try and meet an agreement shows that they were willing to negotiate. It's unfortunate that those teams won't be playing, but I'm very disappointed with the attitude and decision of the committee.
I wish the NASL all the best for their upcoming Season 2.
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I also don`t see why NASL wouldn`t distribute the prize pool even more to make the ro16 players receive a higher minimum amount. Maybe they offered it already, but if they didn`t, this looks like an easy fix for the problem.
By doing so, NASL wouldn`t raise their bduget nor break its promise to retain the prize pool. Plus, the koreans would have guranteed the equivalent of travel costs plus a minimum profit.
If koreans are willing to fly to MLG for travel costs + ridiculous low prize pool, I can`t see why they wouldn`t fly for the equivalent of travel costs + small guaranteed profit + chance of higher prizes. If not, it is because they really can`t stand the schedule, but this is not their current demand.
In the end, NASL should ask themselves, what would atract more players and viewers:
a) a tournament with 100k prize pool, without korean, where the winner earns 40k; or
b) a tournament with 100k prize pool, with koreans, where the winner earns 25k.
Sounds like a no brainer for me.
TL;DR: an easy fix is to redistribute the same prize pool even further, lowering the winner`s prize but guarateing profit for everyone, and see if it meets what the koreans want, considering their demands so far consist in having the travel costs assured.
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On August 12 2011 10:20 MildSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 10:17 ronpaul012 wrote:On August 12 2011 10:08 Condor Hero wrote:On August 12 2011 09:11 hdan wrote:
Im quite happy that the koreans have pulled out, if they cant afford to send theyre players to a tournments with prize pools that big so be it, some money in foreigner pockets is okay by me, besides, puma hero rain and the FXO guys will probably be up there if they can take the places.
You're not at all concerned that we are essentially getting a worse product? With the koreans out there will be a better chance that our foreign sc2 players will do better. Players we can relate too. And the skill gap between the 2 is huge, everybody see it. With koreans out the games will most likely be much much closer and therefor entertaining. So it's not really a worse product. I find the matches more entertaining when Koreans are playing...
Others don't, people are different...
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EPT
