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'TSL expelled from SC2 Conference' - Page 53

Forum Index > SC2 General
1124 CommentsPost a Reply
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Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
August 05 2011 18:18 GMT
#1041
On August 06 2011 03:13 vitruvia wrote:
they are so much more lenient than keSPA lmao

Can u imagine what kespa wouldv'e done>?
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
mprs
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2933 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 18:21:07
August 05 2011 18:19 GMT
#1042
On August 05 2011 21:44 rnCsaFe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2011 19:37 Gov wrote:
A fat chess player may have a strategy, but how is he going to execute it if he wasn't at top shape? Oh wait...

Mate, i think you need to think before you start posting 'clever' one liners. Your suggestion on Chess actually supports my agenda. I'm saying that if 'everyone' is capable of executing a strategy with relative ease - there exists only a thin distinction between 'pro-gamers' and 'hardcores', and 'casuals'.

There are heaps of arguments for this, but you get the idea. The competition in SC2 is very huge, very hard to be successful and can be inconsistent. It will all come down to balance and maps. (Why is Flash and Jaedong always at the top in sc1? Is it because their strategy are good? Or is it their mechanics?) Blizzard is lowering these 'mechanics' required by improving the AI to ease the bar levels in SC2.

There is a reason why some current pro-gamers like MarineKing, who were unsuccessful in SC1, but are now successful in SC2. Correlation of things? Just my view.

So to end this, Coaches like Lee believe that they can exploit players and limit their potential. In reality, they don't provide anymore than emotional/financial support. (I personally don't believe that strategies exclusively come from Coaches in the context of SC2).



We don't know if MKP is actually good in SC2, or if everyone is still bad. Just 8 months ago, we were raving about how SC2 is easy because the two ex-BW progamers named Tester and Cool were dominating.

July and Nada are one of the best BW players to switch over, and they have yet to win a single tournament. Yet we have some random BW "scrubs" like Nestea, MC, MKP, and Bomber raping everyone. To me, this isn't a correlation between playing BW well and your success in SC2.

What I see is that the people who have the most familiarity with BW (i.e. BW pros) do the best in SC2 early on, since the games are very similar. And as more time passes, your BW prowess is not as important as your actual time spent practicing SC2. Remember what happened when Nada played his show match with TLO? It was actually close. Nada, Boxer, and July all looked scary when they switched over. If they would have switched over now, they would look like gold players (and I have some evidence to back it up)

FlasH and Jaedong switching over to SC2 half a year ago would absolutely mop the floor with people. If they switch over now or in a year, they will absolutely be irrelevant. They aren't good at BW because their name is FlasH or Jaedong, but because of their practice regimen. If they maintain that practice regimen, then I have no doubt they will eventually be at the top of the game eventually. But to think that their BW prowess will all of the suddent teach them how to properly defend blue-flame hellions is very unlikely. They might have creative solutions, but it will take practice and time.

We also shouldn't seperate mechanics from strategy. Every player has a certain amount of budget in terms of what his brain power can allow him to do. This is similar to everyone across the world believe it or not. If your strategy is to mech and turtle, then there isn't much room to multi-task or harass. So those mechanical skills are not required for that player. Is this a successful way of playing? Not really. People used to spend a lot of their energy just to macro, so they lack in harass, army positioning, and strategical thinking. But if in BW, the absolute limit was to macro while doing two drops, it means that now the best player can perhaps do 4 drops, or 6 drops at a time. The easier macro of the game relieves you of a lot of actions to use elsewhere.

Most people think that when these actions are not needed anymore, nothing will replace them. But as is true in all competitive environments, competitors will find ways to use this free time/energy to their best ability and try to eek out every little advantage they can. Just like in BW.
We talkin about PRACTICE
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 18:20:02
August 05 2011 18:19 GMT
#1043
On August 06 2011 03:18 Blasterion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2011 03:13 vitruvia wrote:
they are so much more lenient than keSPA lmao

Can u imagine what kespa wouldv'e done>?


Get them to sign contracts?
Thank God and gunrun.
tl666666
Profile Joined August 2011
2 Posts
August 05 2011 18:23 GMT
#1044
On August 06 2011 03:13 vitruvia wrote:
they are so much more lenient than keSPA lmao


only lenient because they have no power really
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
August 05 2011 19:38 GMT
#1045
On August 05 2011 21:44 rnCsaFe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2011 19:37 Gov wrote:
A fat chess player may have a strategy, but how is he going to execute it if he wasn't at top shape? Oh wait...

Mate, i think you need to think before you start posting 'clever' one liners. Your suggestion on Chess actually supports my agenda. I'm saying that if 'everyone' is capable of executing a strategy with relative ease - there exists only a thin distinction between 'pro-gamers' and 'hardcores', and 'casuals'.

There are heaps of arguments for this, but you get the idea. The competition in SC2 is very huge, very hard to be successful and can be inconsistent. It will all come down to balance and maps. (Why is Flash and Jaedong always at the top in sc1? Is it because their strategy are good? Or is it their mechanics?) Blizzard is lowering these 'mechanics' required by improving the AI to ease the bar levels in SC2.

There is a reason why some current pro-gamers like MarineKing, who were unsuccessful in SC1, but are now successful in SC2. Correlation of things? Just my view.

So to end this, Coaches like Lee believe that they can exploit players and limit their potential. In reality, they don't provide anymore than emotional/financial support. (I personally don't believe that strategies exclusively come from Coaches in the context of SC2).



What the hell does this rant have to do with what happened to TSL and SC2con? Why bring the tired old BW vs SC2 mechanics/easy AI shit into a thread that has NOTHING to do with that.
Bababooey
Profile Joined May 2011
19 Posts
August 05 2011 21:15 GMT
#1046
On August 05 2011 20:40 karpo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2011 20:05 Bababooey wrote:
On August 05 2011 17:17 Demidyne wrote:
The fact is that most people of intelligence found Mr Lee's behavior odd during the Puma incident and were also not immediately convinced of the "FD and Trickster are lazy so they want to leave TSL and go drink and party in StarTale" explanation. I believe Mr Lee is an unscrupulous character who created and used the Puma situation to both harm international e-sports relations and attempted to expand the power of coaches and the SC2PA towards his own personal agenda. I said this both during the FD/Trickster arc and the Puma arc. Honestly it came as absolutely no surprise to me when this news popped up, in fact I was expecting "something" to come to light involving the TSL team.

Perhaps I am a bit biased, I study domestic violence, particularly methods of coercive control and have read hundreds of accounts of emotionally coercive non-violent relationships across dozens of ethnicities and cultures and Mr Lee's actions fit disturbingly into some of the patterns of those people. His use of public humiliation, the obvious attempts to isolate players from speaking, the umbrage taken due to EGs 'violation' of norms while at the same time violating norms himself by disgracing his player, and the night before the news broke we got to see him in an interview during the Code A finals where he sounded more like a robot than a person and seemed to just be speaking the words that he thought would make people like him the most. No I don't trust that guy one bit, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of coercive emotional control happening in that team, not healthy team spirit or team loyalty.. but guilt and/or fear.


I 100% agree. The thing that set off the alarm for me was the amount of public slander and reputational lynching Lee set on Puma for leaving, despite Puma's sensitivity in wanting to personally talk to Lee in private about switching to EG. There was an overwhelming and unjustifiable amount of unprofessionalism (read: amount of butthurt) coming from Lee, who basically made it feel like Puma OWED it to him and TSL to stay, using terms such as "respect" and "loyalty" as a front, for as we now know, Lee's selfish monetary gains.

Good thing this came to light, and Lee is exposed for the person he is: a self-victimizing double-speaker that attempts to control his environment through coercive emotional control. Not a good person to associate with professionally, and definitely not a good person to associate with personally.

Glad the other managers saw through the smoke as well, and expelled TSL from SC2con. I just hope the players remaining on TSL are going to be alright.


Both quoted posts make so many assumption my head is hurting from reading them.


Care to actually debate this with me or are you just going to stick with the simple one-liner blanket statements?
weegee101
Profile Joined February 2011
United States9 Posts
August 05 2011 21:21 GMT
#1047
On August 05 2011 20:05 Bababooey wrote:
Glad the other managers saw through the smoke as well, and expelled TSL from SC2con. I just hope the players remaining on TSL are going to be alright.


Being as those players most likely don't have contracts, I would expect other teams to swoop in and pick them up. It would be advisable for them from a professional standpoint for the players to switch teams now.
Semper Victoria
RyLai
Profile Joined May 2011
United States477 Posts
August 05 2011 22:46 GMT
#1048
The SC2PA seems like more of a worker's union kind of thing.

To be honest, I feel like Lee has some issues. But I'm not completely sure. T and FD could be using Lee's recent negative publicity to their advantage. I mean, why didn't any of this information come out sooner? They left WAY before people even heard of EG talking to PuMa. Maybe it just took a while for the discussion to begin? I somehow doubt that.

But this is a serious issue. Given all the information we've been told, Lee should probably be removed from his managerial position at TSL because he doesn't have a positive reputation which can hurt TSL's public image and he doesn't seem to be doing the best job for his team.
redFF
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3910 Posts
August 05 2011 22:50 GMT
#1049
Does this matter? I mean they can still compete in tournies and everything. To me it just feels like "You are expelled from our pointless, powerless club and can no longer come to meetings!!!!"
Angelbelow
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3728 Posts
August 05 2011 22:51 GMT
#1050
On August 06 2011 07:46 RyLai wrote:
The SC2PA seems like more of a worker's union kind of thing.

To be honest, I feel like Lee has some issues. But I'm not completely sure. T and FD could be using Lee's recent negative publicity to their advantage. I mean, why didn't any of this information come out sooner? They left WAY before people even heard of EG talking to PuMa. Maybe it just took a while for the discussion to begin? I somehow doubt that.

But this is a serious issue. Given all the information we've been told, Lee should probably be removed from his managerial position at TSL because he doesn't have a positive reputation which can hurt TSL's public image and he doesn't seem to be doing the best job for his team.


They brought their dispute to the SCPA. No reason to go public. The only reason why its public now is because the SCPA have to make the announcement that TSL has been banned. Naturally people are going to want reasons as to why this went down this way.
You may delay, but time will not. Current Music obsession: Opeth
thee telescopes
Profile Joined August 2010
321 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 23:01:57
August 05 2011 23:01 GMT
#1051
On August 06 2011 07:50 redFF wrote:
Does this matter? I mean they can still compete in tournies and everything. To me it just feels like "You are expelled from our pointless, powerless club and can no longer come to meetings!!!!"
It might damage their ability to recruit, if a player has multiple teams interested in them but joining one of the teams would mean they don't have the protection this organisation could provide it could make a difference.
FidoDido
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1292 Posts
August 06 2011 00:05 GMT
#1052
On August 04 2011 20:37 Domination wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2011 20:37 b_unnies wrote:
On the 4th of August, we received a message from Manager Lee saying he/they would withdraw from the SC2PA and therefore we were left with no other choice to announce their expulsion.


Coach Lee tells SC2 con that they are withdrawing, so sc2 con decides to expel them

Ah yes, the old YOU CANT FIRE ME I QUIT gambit except in reverse.


^ This guy gets it.

It's pretty obvious, you can't trust people who hide behind their masks. You guys think all these players are leaving TSL for bad reasons? it's pretty obvious something huge was going on behind the scenes.
LGIMSeed FantasyToss~~ Hipster Seed fan before he made Code A
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
August 06 2011 00:57 GMT
#1053
They both were probably out partying every night at strip clubs.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
CptFlowers
Profile Joined February 2011
United States30 Posts
August 06 2011 01:02 GMT
#1054
TSL is a sinking ship
D:
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
August 06 2011 01:08 GMT
#1055
^ Did it ever set sail?
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-06 01:57:38
August 06 2011 01:55 GMT
#1056
On August 06 2011 07:46 RyLai wrote:
The SC2PA seems like more of a worker's union kind of thing.

To be honest, I feel like Lee has some issues. But I'm not completely sure. T and FD could be using Lee's recent negative publicity to their advantage. I mean, why didn't any of this information come out sooner? They left WAY before people even heard of EG talking to PuMa. Maybe it just took a while for the discussion to begin? I somehow doubt that.

But this is a serious issue. Given all the information we've been told, Lee should probably be removed from his managerial position at TSL because he doesn't have a positive reputation which can hurt TSL's public image and he doesn't seem to be doing the best job for his team.


I don't know - In the article it did say a lot of money went missing (and lying about sponsors and sponsors taking their old equipment back but never actually obtaining it).

Though $5000 cost of food for 10 players is kind of acceptable if they were eating out and/or buying expensive food (though it's the coach/manager's responsibility to keep prices low if they were in financial trouble).

There can be lots of quality, cheap, nutritious low price food but at the same time there can be a lot more expensive of the same (For example a vegan frozen meal costs like $5 as opposed to $1 of non-vegan version >.>). (If anyone is curious - Whole wheat pasta with 7 servings of 200 calories only costs $1-2. That's about enough pasta to feed someone (recommended amount is 1.5k calories, pasta pack has 1400 calories total). (Whole wheat pasta provides lots of protein, fiber, some iron, etc.).

Anyway I don't know what to think about it but it really does seem Lee is the bad guy in this situation.

It's also true that he could have confronted FD and Tester about these issues in the first place (as they both said in the updated OP).

Well it's good there's a SC2 version of KeSPA (until KeSPA decides to take over in the next year or so of course >.>).
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
Xxavi
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1248 Posts
August 06 2011 03:36 GMT
#1057
On August 05 2011 14:26 Seide wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2011 13:29 Xxavi wrote:
From all of this, Coach Lee looks like an asshole and a dick. I sympathized with him in the Puma-EG saga, but little did I know.

1. FD and Tester created TSL, along with Lee. They left oGs because they wanted to be lazy. They created TSL because they wanted to be lazy. Lee agreed with this, and created the team with those two. Lee also decided to pay these two.
2. Consequently, Lee could not have or rather should not have expected anything different. They were being lazy, like promised. Is it bad? May be, but not in this context, because it was agreed upon before creation of TSL. Sure, he could have talked to them in a straightforward manner and asked them to leave, but lying, not obliging the contracts, defaming, using their images and all other stuff mentioned in the articles are Lee's mistakes and problems.
3. Particularly disgusting is the fact that Lee mixed his personal PC Cafe business with this. Taking old computers? My God, how dirty is this guy? Lying about wages and expenditures? Truly terrible.

Hope Lee crumbles.

ok man, wanting a flexible training schedule != being lazy. You won't even become a entry level progamer by being lazy.

You can still have a flexible training schedule and put in a lot of work.

FD & Tester are older progamers, some of the first to switch from SC1 from SC2, its understandable for them wanting to have game/live balance at this point.

You don't see Nada living in oGs house or adhering the training schedules that other members follow, but he still puts in his time and practice on his own.

It's FD's and Tester's problem if they don't succeed. They created a team, remember? They did it so that they could be lazy. It was agreed upon, why change it midway through? Even if you do want to change it, you can say it differently, instead of taking away their salaries and lying about it.
Temporarykid
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada362 Posts
August 06 2011 03:44 GMT
#1058
On August 04 2011 20:31 deerpark87 wrote:
E-sport Drama!!!


Haha, this. So epic, especially since he's a Korean manager I'm curious to see which he decides to do.
ㅈㅈ
Mortal
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
2943 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-06 03:49:58
August 06 2011 03:49 GMT
#1059
On August 06 2011 10:08 Belial88 wrote:
^ Did it ever set sail?


i'd say it was always more of a shaky dingy. now it's leo dicaprio on a door. Kind of a bummer :{
The universe created an audience for itself.
IslandLife
Profile Joined March 2011
21 Posts
August 06 2011 05:40 GMT
#1060
On August 05 2011 20:40 karpo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2011 20:05 Bababooey wrote:
On August 05 2011 17:17 Demidyne wrote:
The fact is that most people of intelligence found Mr Lee's behavior odd during the Puma incident and were also not immediately convinced of the "FD and Trickster are lazy so they want to leave TSL and go drink and party in StarTale" explanation. I believe Mr Lee is an unscrupulous character who created and used the Puma situation to both harm international e-sports relations and attempted to expand the power of coaches and the SC2PA towards his own personal agenda. I said this both during the FD/Trickster arc and the Puma arc. Honestly it came as absolutely no surprise to me when this news popped up, in fact I was expecting "something" to come to light involving the TSL team.

Perhaps I am a bit biased, I study domestic violence, particularly methods of coercive control and have read hundreds of accounts of emotionally coercive non-violent relationships across dozens of ethnicities and cultures and Mr Lee's actions fit disturbingly into some of the patterns of those people. His use of public humiliation, the obvious attempts to isolate players from speaking, the umbrage taken due to EGs 'violation' of norms while at the same time violating norms himself by disgracing his player, and the night before the news broke we got to see him in an interview during the Code A finals where he sounded more like a robot than a person and seemed to just be speaking the words that he thought would make people like him the most. No I don't trust that guy one bit, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of coercive emotional control happening in that team, not healthy team spirit or team loyalty.. but guilt and/or fear.


I 100% agree. The thing that set off the alarm for me was the amount of public slander and reputational lynching Lee set on Puma for leaving, despite Puma's sensitivity in wanting to personally talk to Lee in private about switching to EG. There was an overwhelming and unjustifiable amount of unprofessionalism (read: amount of butthurt) coming from Lee, who basically made it feel like Puma OWED it to him and TSL to stay, using terms such as "respect" and "loyalty" as a front, for as we now know, Lee's selfish monetary gains.

Good thing this came to light, and Lee is exposed for the person he is: a self-victimizing double-speaker that attempts to control his environment through coercive emotional control. Not a good person to associate with professionally, and definitely not a good person to associate with personally.

Glad the other managers saw through the smoke as well, and expelled TSL from SC2con. I just hope the players remaining on TSL are going to be alright.


Both quoted posts make so many assumption my head is hurting from reading them.


Anyone have experience with older people/people in power abusing the Confucian system for personal gain? Has anyone seen the way Koreans honor their elders? Has anyone seen a select few of those elders use that power in the wrong? Has anyone seen the resentment on a younger Korean's face when he has to acquiesce even though he knows the older person is full of it?

Those posts you are bashing were informed and spot on, unlike your one-liner.
Yah mon!
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