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On August 07 2011 02:09 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 02:07 masterbreti wrote:On August 07 2011 02:01 zeru wrote:On August 07 2011 01:57 Ziggitz wrote:I'm sorry but Lee had every right to refuse payment to these guys. Lee may not have done it the right way by lieing. He should have told them flat out that he wasn't going to give them the money because they didn't practice, they went out and partied all the time. And They never auctally did much more than be faces of the team He had no right. He had a legal obligation to pay them what he agreed to. His other alternatives were to try and renegotiate with them or fire them. He's lucky that the SC2PA and the SC2Con exists or the only other option would have been suing him in court which would have been a lot worse for everyone given the relatively small sums involved. He broke the law big time breaching those contracts as well as using their likenesses without permission or payment and it would certainly not have gone his way. Of lets put it this way. When one is underperforming. They get their pay cut. That happens often in the workplace and is what Lee is doing. Unless he put a clause that allowed him to cut their pay at his own discretion, which no one would be dumb enough to agree to, it's illegal plain and simple. This isn't you Dad cutting your allowance because he thinks you did bad on your homework or didn't mow the lawn properly it's a legal contract. I have yet to see any confirmation or proof that an actual contract existed. Exactly. afaik they didn't have contracts. Puma didn't have a contract either. citing that everything was trust based. So assuming this was the case (there has been no proff they had contracts) they were being paid based on being players on the team and practing. I would say if they don't practice. They don't get paid. The difference is, that Puma didn't get paid anything. FD and Tester did get paid, so I think there was a contract, but I don't know for sure.
This is the thing that really bugs me about this thread -- 54 pages of judgements and blame, but it's largely speculative. Half the people are saying they had a contract, and the other half say they don't, and the only evidence seems to be "well obviously they did / didn't." If what the ST coach / SC2Con said is true, then yeah, Lee is pretty awful. If what Lee says is true, then it may not be morally / legally right, but I can understand his position and the problems he was facing. But we don't know what the truth is. Did they have contracts? What were the contents and stipulations of the contracts? We apparently don't know anything at all about that. Yeah, this definitely isn't good PR for TSL, but can we at least withhold the "see, this guy is a scumbag" attitude? Both sides are biased, so the actual truth is probably somewhere in between -- we don't and probably won't ever know, so let's not crucify Coach Lee just yet -.-
At any rate, this is obviously really unfortunate for the other TSL players, and for their sake I hope that things aren't as bad as ST says.
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On August 05 2011 08:01 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:50 moonmeh wrote:On August 05 2011 07:48 masterbreti wrote:Also did anyone look at the interview more closely. here is a quote from it, the TSL response anyways. Due to their attitude actions which hurt their team mates such as not being interested in team rebuilding and ect, the coach and the players decided that there would be no need to give the final payment. That duration was for a month So from what I can tell, it was also the other players in TSL that gave Lee the goahead no to pay FD and tester. Might have been peer pressure, might have been exaggerated but in the end no matter what the players said, Coach Lee had a legal obligation. Also have a feeling he's just dragging the players in. There is no contract though. give you an example though of how non salaried players work. My father is a Contracter. He does work for people and they pay him when it is finished. simple enough. If he says he will do it and does not. Guess what! he won't be paid a dime or a penny. If one does not do the work asked of them, one does not get paid, regardless of the relationship between the man with the money and the person wanting the money. in the sc2 scene in Korea it can be likened to this. Lee asked FD and tester to practice more and play more since TSL's results were not so good, also if FD and tester practice more, they inspire the younger players and get them to play more since they would want to at least match the older players practice routine (MMA refrences this drive to out practice the older players in a interview with Gom a while back) Now if FD or tester did their practice and did their work like they were asked. They would have been paid.
Verbal contracts are still contracts, and can be enforced by law (at least in common law countries). This is why contractors can operate in this manner. There was an actual contract here, even if it's not written (assuming same rules, which I do not know in Korea).
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I don't know if it helps the debate or anything but here's the original story on ThisIsGame about them becoming the first korean SC2 team to provide salaries.
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=609485&category=13439
Here's the corresponding team liquid thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201086
Given that fruitdealer and tester are singled out somewhat as being paid the most it's fair to assume if anyone was contracted they would be and I can't possibly imagine a situation where the sponsors wouldn't expect them to be. The main reason being that otherwise the players would have to release individual image rights for advertisements as they wouldn't have rescinded their rights in a contract.
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I'm bewildered that some people are still defending Lee at this point. I must conclude that you either had already made your mind up to be on his side during the whole EG/Puma thing and don't want to turn back now, or are unable to comprehend that SC2Con had no "lack of information" (quoted because it's the most commonly used phrase when trying cast doubt upon whether Lee was actually a lying, unethical SOB) when they issued their ruling.
This summary of the SC2Con ruling is surely not every single piece of evidence that they took into consideration -- this reads like a finding of fact from an arbitration body.
We know, as FACTS, that:
1) Lee breached an employment contract (whether it be oral or written) with FD & Trickster.
2) Lee lied to FD & Trickster, claiming that TSL was no longer being paid by a sponsor, in order to justify withholding payment.
There is, on the contrary, no evidence that FD & Trickster did anything to damage TSL. Those who claim that to be the case are speculating. Many are assuming that they were coming back drunk while the rest of the team was practicing and Lee was diligently performing management duties. It is more likely, however, (and equally speculative) that FD & Trickster were not coming back to the team house drunk and Lee was just looking for an excuse to withhold payment from them to improve his own financial position. Perhaps some TSL players were unhappy with Lee's management style and Trickster/FD were the only ones with the clout who could confront Lee about his mismanagement. Maybe they were all unhappy that Lee was almost never at the teamhouse.
An arbitration body primarily composed of Lee's truest peers (other team managers) judged him on this matter. They are uniquely in a better position to weigh the evidence, taking into account their own experiences as managers, and issue a judgment than anyone here.
The only logical way to attack this argument would be to claim that SC2Con was biased against TSL. That seems absurd, however, as SC2Con was a body of peer teams, and there would be no incentive (indeed, it would set a terrible precedent) for the other teams to gang up on one of their own and throw him to the wolves. If anything, it's likely that SC2Con decided to not publicly air some of the more egregious and embarrassing actions taken by Lee.
It's clear that Koreans want nothing to do with Lee any longer, so I hope that all of TSL's players can find new and better homes in short order. Unfortunately for FD, Trickster, Clide, & Killer, they'll never see the money that Lee owes them. It probably will go straight into his wallet and stay there.
Perhaps I'm too harsh on Lee, but I have zero tolerance for liars and those who cheat others via unscrupulous actions, and Lee more than qualifies.
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On August 07 2011 03:42 Zinthar wrote:
I'm bewildered that some people are still defending Lee at this point. I must conclude that you either had already made your mind up to be on his side during the whole EG/Puma thing and don't want to turn back now, or are unable to comprehend that SC2Con had no "lack of information" (quoted because it's the most commonly used phrase when trying cast doubt upon whether Lee was actually a lying, unethical SOB) when they issued their ruling.
This summary of the SC2Con ruling is surely not every single piece of evidence that they took into consideration -- this reads like a finding of fact from an arbitration body.
We know, as FACTS, that:
1) Lee breached an employment contract (whether it be oral or written) with FD & Trickster.
2) Lee lied to FD & Trickster, claiming that TSL was no longer being paid by a sponsor, in order to justify withholding payment.
There is, on the contrary, no evidence that FD & Trickster did anything to damage TSL. Those who claim that to be the case are speculating. Many are assuming that they were coming back drunk while the rest of the team was practicing and Lee was diligently performing management duties. It is more likely, however, (and equally speculative) that FD & Trickster were not coming back to the team house drunk and Lee was just looking for an excuse to withhold payment from them to improve his own financial position. Perhaps some TSL players were unhappy with Lee's management style and Trickster/FD were the only ones with the clout who could confront Lee about his mismanagement. Maybe they were all unhappy that Lee was almost never at the teamhouse.
An arbitration body primarily composed of Lee's truest peers (other team managers) judged him on this matter. They are uniquely in a better position to weigh the evidence, taking into account their own experiences as managers, and issue a judgment than anyone here.
The only logical way to attack this argument would be to claim that SC2Con was biased against TSL. That seems absurd, however, as SC2Con was a body of peer teams, and there would be no incentive (indeed, it would set a terrible precedent) for the other teams to gang up on one of their own and throw him to the wolves. If anything, it's likely that SC2Con decided to not publicly air some of the more egregious and embarrassing actions taken by Lee.
It's clear that Koreans want nothing to do with Lee any longer, so I hope that all of TSL's players can find new and better homes in short order. Unfortunately for FD, Trickster, Clide, & Killer, they'll never see the money that Lee owes them. It probably will go straight into his wallet and stay there.
Perhaps I'm too harsh on Lee, but I have zero tolerance for liars and those who cheat others via unscrupulous actions, and Lee more than qualifies.
I also suggest you read FXOBoSS' posts in this thread. SC2Con seems to be a rather corrupt person (1 person is head of it, and has all power) so I would not put any weight into sc2con's statements.
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Oh wow. Wowwwww, can't believe I just saw this.
Lots of drama coming out of TSL after Trickster/Fruitdealer leaving and then Puma leaving for EG. TSL was becoming a pretty solid team, too (or so I thought until this mess).
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On August 07 2011 02:16 dormer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 02:09 Hardigan wrote:On August 07 2011 02:07 masterbreti wrote:On August 07 2011 02:01 zeru wrote:On August 07 2011 01:57 Ziggitz wrote:I'm sorry but Lee had every right to refuse payment to these guys. Lee may not have done it the right way by lieing. He should have told them flat out that he wasn't going to give them the money because they didn't practice, they went out and partied all the time. And They never auctally did much more than be faces of the team He had no right. He had a legal obligation to pay them what he agreed to. His other alternatives were to try and renegotiate with them or fire them. He's lucky that the SC2PA and the SC2Con exists or the only other option would have been suing him in court which would have been a lot worse for everyone given the relatively small sums involved. He broke the law big time breaching those contracts as well as using their likenesses without permission or payment and it would certainly not have gone his way. Of lets put it this way. When one is underperforming. They get their pay cut. That happens often in the workplace and is what Lee is doing. Unless he put a clause that allowed him to cut their pay at his own discretion, which no one would be dumb enough to agree to, it's illegal plain and simple. This isn't you Dad cutting your allowance because he thinks you did bad on your homework or didn't mow the lawn properly it's a legal contract. I have yet to see any confirmation or proof that an actual contract existed. Exactly. afaik they didn't have contracts. Puma didn't have a contract either. citing that everything was trust based. So assuming this was the case (there has been no proff they had contracts) they were being paid based on being players on the team and practing. I would say if they don't practice. They don't get paid. The difference is, that Puma didn't get paid anything. FD and Tester did get paid, so I think there was a contract, but I don't know for sure. This is the thing that really bugs me about this thread -- 54 pages of judgements and blame, but it's largely speculative. Half the people are saying they had a contract, and the other half say they don't, and the only evidence seems to be "well obviously they did / didn't." If what the ST coach / SC2Con said is true, then yeah, Lee is pretty awful. If what Lee says is true, then it may not be morally / legally right, but I can understand his position and the problems he was facing. But we don't know what the truth is. Did they have contracts? What were the contents and stipulations of the contracts? We apparently don't know anything at all about that. Yeah, this definitely isn't good PR for TSL, but can we at least withhold the "see, this guy is a scumbag" attitude? Both sides are biased, so the actual truth is probably somewhere in between -- we don't and probably won't ever know, so let's not crucify Coach Lee just yet -.- At any rate, this is obviously really unfortunate for the other TSL players, and for their sake I hope that things aren't as bad as ST says.
The best part is there are people posting stuff like, "I HOPE THEY BAN ALL OF TSL PLAYERS FROM GSL!!!!" over this. Like, seriously?...
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On August 07 2011 04:15 masterbreti wrote:
I also suggest you read FXOBoSS' posts in this thread. SC2Con seems to be a rather corrupt person (1 person is head of it, and has all power) so I would not put any weight into sc2con's statements.
I did read them (there were just two, right?), but he didn't really elaborate. The conference president is Startale's manager, so if he's "corrupt" that would indeed be a serious accusation. Considering that both FD & Trickster joined ST after TSL, then I'm surprised that Lee didn't make any allegation of corruption if that is the case.
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So if your employees refuse to work, you still pay them? When their coworkers are working 10 hours a day for much less pay?
Yes...? I have a job as a manager, and when employees simply don't work and are being pieces of shit, I send them home immediately and, depending on the severity of the case, they either come in tommorow or I straight up fire them. I pay them for the time they were on shift, but if I notice they aren't working, I do what I can to take them off the clock and out of the store ASAP.
So for the TSL's case, you have to pay the players for time contracted, but he should have fired or 'let go' of the players ASAP if there were problems with their participation. They also should not be using their likeness on ads if they have problems with them either. Yea, it sucks, but hiring shitty people is like that. You just have to get rid of them immediately, and obvously Lee had no problem keeping the likeness of FD/Tester on TSL images.
Haven't you ever seen anything like that happen at your job? Some guy is just not working, right, and the boss wants to fire them right? They have to pay them for their shift/time, and they take them off the clock ASAP. For salaried people, there become grounds for pay suspensions, work suspensions, and even firing.
I also suggest you read FXOBoSS' posts in this thread. SC2Con seems to be a rather corrupt person (1 person is head of it, and has all power) so I would not put any weight into sc2con's statements.
It's still pretty clear TSL withheld money from FD/Tester. Lee's response did not justify anything he did, and from the accusations, I don't think there is any excuse for this short of Lee saying "They're all lying and I paid FD/Tester and the sponsor money never came in".
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I don't know how people came to the conclusion Lee 'fired' FruitDealer and Trickster from TSL. In the players' own words from the ST Manager; Trickster and FruitDealer confronted Lee about what they thought was going on with the money. Shortly after Trickster called Lee and advised he was leaving the team. Lee then assumed FruitDealer was leaving too and told everyone without even consulting FruitDealer first on his position..
If this is true then that isn't being fired. In my experience as a manager, a sit down meeting to discuss termination constitutes firing. Or at least letting the individual know before telling other people. FruitDealer did not express interest in being released from his contract, therefore money is owing to him until the contract is terminated.
Lee seems very shady and underhanded. I sympathise with FruitDealer here... How could he play his best thinking that his own coach was withholding money owing to him and lying about it. I'd stop giving a crap about my performance too.
EDIT: For clarity
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Sounds like coach Lee is skimming a little off the top.
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Eh, I love fruitdealer honestly, and this seems like a situation that lee managed incredibly poorly, but to think that this isn't both sides being stupid is dumb.
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Btw did anyone notice that once FD switched team he instantly shaved and had a new haircut and seemed to feel alot better? Beating down on players for drinking too much and not being motivated, well, generally people dont start drinking and feel bad for no reason and the obvious change that came when FD switched teams inclines me to believe their side more. But I don't really know enough (or care enough) to choose sides, lol
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Damn... the whole ordeal with Puma, EG, and TSL is starting to make more sense now.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
lol @ the 'drinking' shit
fruitdealer probably drank less often than the avg korean
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On August 07 2011 00:31 iamke55 wrote:
So if your employees refuse to work, you still pay them? When their coworkers are working 10 hours a day for much less pay?
Yes.
About contracts and employment:
+ Show Spoiler +
If they breached their contract (which, according to the post, they really couldn't unless this "free" practice schedule had a time requirement) then it is ground for discharge. In most countries there would be some form of minimum notice and severance pay unless they were on probation or it was specifically stipulated in the contract that they could be fired on no notice and without pay. The exceptions to this are often gross misconduct which varies a little depending on the job but in this case did not occur (sexual harassment, assault, gross negligence for example).
Note that these obligations (at least in Canada and to my knowledge in most countries with decent labor laws) also bind the employee to some extent. Usually if the employee is to quit they also give notice (2 weeks being the standard for low pay jobs but an engineer with 10 years in the company should be giving 3-6 months for example, my own contract has it laid out as x notice per year served in the company, this is to allow them time to find a suitable replacement on projects and the like as it is much harder to hire an engineer with 10-20 years experience than it is to find a new waiter).
However, a lot like in tenant law with landlords, the companies are often seen as being more resilient and having more means than the individual so unless there is a blatant disregard for the contract or law, the employee will often get the benefit of the doubt. As a result of this it is in the companies best interest to have proper contracts (as well as in the employees quite frankly but again, they get benefit of the doubt).
Verbal contracts are contracts as well by the way just in case someone brings up paperwork again.
Now to put this all in perspective.
+ Show Spoiler +I could theoretically just show up at work but not do anything, this would be unprofessional, unethical and stupid but I could do it. If that were to occur, after I clearly refuse work, the company could discharge me as per my contract, pay me whatever few weeks or months pay they still owe me (between the time I was being lazy and the severance) and tell me to clear my desk.
In this scenario the company has a slightly higher workload (one fewer employees working) and a small logistical hassle (paying me, doing paperwork with a lawyer, hiring someone new). I have no more job, a relatively small sum of money and most likely the inability to find another job in the industry because a) they'll never give me a reference and b) they'll probably end up telling the people they work with what happened ... word gets around.
So, who do you think is worse off?
As I see it both sides were unprofessional, somewhat incompetent and pretty stupid all around. The coach somehow gave an open contract with no minimum practice which is just silly. The players somehow decided ditching one team then being lazy and ditching another team was a way to start a career (that's a great way to ensure everyone is very careful about the wording of their contracts in the future, if they even get one). And on top of that the coach massively mishandled both the discharge (lying, not paying wages etc) and the PR.
The players should have:
+ Show Spoiler +Not been lazy, or at least been a lot more open about it all. Not much to say here, it was stupid and they were acting like spoiled children.
The coach should have:
+ Show Spoiler +- Never given a free schedule contract like that.
- Once he realized they were being discharged just payed them as he is going to have to anyways, gone public with a truthful explanation which would essentially have been "For the good of the team we had to let them go as per their contract because they were not working hard and were a poor influence on the other members" and in passing shot their reputation and their chances of ever getting another contract to hell while coming off as a concerned and responsible manager.
Just an edit to say that the only real people to feel sorry for are the ones still in the team after this fiasco. They would most likely do well to find another team, do so in a clean and open manner so as to not end up in the same situation and be on their way rather than get further associated with TSL and its image. Obviously quitting soon will be easy as the manager has shown himself to be terribly incompetent and no one will fault them for wanting to leave at that point.
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On August 08 2011 06:50 Rekrul wrote:
lol @ the 'drinking' shit
fruitdealer probably drank less often than the avg korean
Maybe its just he mentioned it once in an interview.
-.- I can't believe how gossipy this has turned into.
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Im torn on coach Lee, i only ever hear bad things about him and how he runs the team, but he always sounds reasonable and likeable when hes interviewed, hes either unjustly represented or a conversational wizard!!! :o
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On August 04 2011 20:39 Snaiil wrote:
So does Coach Lee still have to pay FD and Trickster despite leaving SC2PA?
No. The SC2 Con is a voluntary organization designed to keep the members in line. If TSL decides not to abide by the decision, the SC2 Con's only recourse is to deny them membership. I have no idea what consequences beyond that will fall on TSL if they are not a member of SC2 Con, but it's likely they will still be able to play in the GSL.
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EPT
