|
On August 05 2011 12:51 Condor Hero wrote:
EG just talking to Puma was unprofessional because he clearly was representing another team at a competition. His team paid for him to compete, not looking for other offers.
Actually, his team did not pay for him to compete at the NASL -- NASL paid for that trip. He was not at a team competition, he was playing for himself. He also was not under contract with TSL.
The lack of contract is particularly important because the association that TSL players had amongst one another was really more of an at will partnership which could be broken at any time for any reason. TSL provided food and a team house for its players, while TSL's most recognizable faces attracted sponsorship dollars for the team.
Before I thought TSL's coach was just a terrible businessman who was clueless about to how to run an organization. After reading this, however, Coach Lee's intentions were clearly more insidious than I had imagined. The man was trying to use FD and Trickster (and he succeeded, as he likely will never pay them what is owed), and it's sad that he's using Killer and Clide even still. Does anyone believe that Lee didn't pressure Killer and Clide into paying their wages into the operating budget?
Manager Lee should have no part in the e-sports community. After these events, I highly doubt that TSL will be able to attract any sponsors and improve their financial position. The team will likely disband, Lee will be excised of his "team manager" title for good in the SC2 scene, and this charade can end.
|
It's a little shoking to hear this from one of the supposedly most respectable/trustworthy/beloved/caring coaches of Korea, but well... if it was just a lie I'm glad to know this before it's too late and ppl starts yelling he's the best coach/guy on earth... oh wait
Reading of TSL players as victims, and he as a not honest coach well, not a nice picture to be on mind.
can't wait to read what else is there to say
|
It sort of feels sad that the unpaid wages are still so low in amount though 
Thanks for the translation~
|
On August 05 2011 15:24 histrionic wrote:
It doesn't say if Coach Lee is going to pay those "fines."
(note: I'm just going to refer to TSL/CoachLee as TSL. I'm not suggesting the team of players be punished)
Ok so TSL has been "expelled" or withdrawn from the SC2Con as the SC2Con said would happen if TSL didn't pay the ordered reparations. What "further measures" can SC2Con really take if they can't enforce these "monetary disciplinary actions" and aren't going to ban/tempban TSL from league play? (I'm not saying they SHOULD ban TSL)
Does TSL even really lose anything from withdrawing/being banned from SC2Con (besides losing rep)?
I guess I'm mostly questioning the usefulness of this SC2Con if it has no real power.
If you define "real" power as the ability to enforce the judgment against TSL in any event, then no, SC2Con has no real power.
However, expulsion from SC2Con as the alternative punishment and the associated shame with the expulsion will result in tangible consequences for TSL, most likely in the form of lesser ability to attact new players, keep existing players, and acquire sponsors.
SC2Con membership ensures that all member teams abide by certain rules, and that certainty is a key selling point the team. Why would a TSL player rely on a contract when it seems that Manager Lee is willing to unilaterally breach it? I'm not sure what Korean contract law entails, but a lawsuit as the player's remedy is probably prohibitively expensive. A respected body like SC2Con that can adjudicate disputes within the community cheaply compared to legal alternatives. Essentially, it can act as a well-informed (because of their knowledge of the SC2 community) arbitrator.
|
On August 05 2011 15:42 IslandLife wrote:
If SC2Con thought Mr. Lee was an okay guy who just made a few mistakes, they wouldn't have released that to the public.
I'd say SC2Con released this because they want Mr. Lee out of the business. The teams in SC2Con have to protect their business by trying to keep the public image of SC2 teams clean. I'm sure most of the managers care about their players and the game itself as well.
A few sponsors will most likely withdraw now. TSL would dissolve and the players could join other teams or get a new coach who isn't a shyster (hopefully).
If you have young kids signing dubious contracts (or not even on contracts...ahem...) it makes court cases difficult, if not impossible. I think SC2Con's approach is rather admirable. It's great they are doing what they can.
On August 05 2011 15:59 Zinthar wrote:
If you define "real" power as the ability to enforce the judgment against TSL in any event, then no, SC2Con has no real power.
However, expulsion from SC2Con as the alternative punishment and the associated shame with the expulsion will result in tangible consequences for TSL, most likely in the form of lesser ability to attact new players, keep existing players, and acquire sponsors.
SC2Con membership ensures that all member teams abide by certain rules, and that certainty is a key selling point the team. Why would a TSL player rely on a contract when it seems that Manager Lee is willing to unilaterally breach it? I'm not sure what Korean contract law entails, but a lawsuit as the player's remedy is probably prohibitively expensive. A respected body like SC2Con that can adjudicate disputes within the community cheaply compared to legal alternatives. Essentially, it can act as a well-informed (because of their knowledge of the SC2 community) arbitrator.
I don't have anything to add, just wanted to say thanks for the informative replies.
|
|
|
Hmmmmm I hope all you EG haters that gave it to them with no lube when Puma signed with them, apologize now, but I doubt you will.
|
On August 05 2011 03:34 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? Yes. Because I'm salaried. As presumably is Fruitdealer. If I spend 6 hours a day on Reddit or TL at work, I expect to get yelled at, written up, and eventually fired. I don't expect my boss to come up and say "Actually you're not worth what we agreed upon. I am altering the agreement. Pray I don't alter it further." You can't just retroactively and unilaterally renegotiate a contract, even a verbal one, without even warning the other party.
Except Coach Lee didnt alter any agreements at all
|
On August 05 2011 15:48 Zinthar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 12:51 Condor Hero wrote:
EG just talking to Puma was unprofessional because he clearly was representing another team at a competition. His team paid for him to compete, not looking for other offers. Actually, his team did not pay for him to compete at the NASL -- NASL paid for that trip. He was not at a team competition, he was playing for himself. He also was not under contract with TSL. The lack of contract is particularly important because the association that TSL players had amongst one another was really more of an at will partnership which could be broken at any time for any reason. TSL provided food and a team house for its players, while TSL's most recognizable faces attracted sponsorship dollars for the team. Before I thought TSL's coach was just a terrible businessman who was clueless about to how to run an organization. After reading this, however, Coach Lee's intentions were clearly more insidious than I had imagined. The man was trying to use FD and Trickster (and he succeeded, as he likely will never pay them what is owed), and it's sad that he's using Killer and Clide even still. Does anyone believe that Lee didn't pressure Killer and Clide into paying their wages into the operating budget? Manager Lee should have no part in the e-sports community. After these events, I highly doubt that TSL will be able to attract any sponsors and improve their financial position. The team will likely disband, Lee will be excised of his "team manager" title for good in the SC2 scene, and this charade can end.
I think NASL only covered $500 for players who finished in the ro32. I'm not sure whether TSL or Puma himself paid for his flight/stay. Thankfully Puma made it back and then some.
I agree with your points though. People made a huge deal over EG's alleged improper business behavior but it sounds like Alex just approached Puma since they were both at the event. Did people really expect him NOT to talk to a player he was interested in while they were both in the same corner of the world? Should he have said hi Puma, I'm going to call your coach first and then we'll talk when you're 6000 miles away again.
|
The fact is that most people of intelligence found Mr Lee's behavior odd during the Puma incident and were also not immediately convinced of the "FD and Trickster are lazy so they want to leave TSL and go drink and party in StarTale" explanation. I believe Mr Lee is an unscrupulous character who created and used the Puma situation to both harm international e-sports relations and attempted to expand the power of coaches and the SC2PA towards his own personal agenda. I said this both during the FD/Trickster arc and the Puma arc. Honestly it came as absolutely no surprise to me when this news popped up, in fact I was expecting "something" to come to light involving the TSL team.
Perhaps I am a bit biased, I study domestic violence, particularly methods of coercive control and have read hundreds of accounts of emotionally coercive non-violent relationships across dozens of ethnicities and cultures and Mr Lee's actions fit disturbingly into some of the patterns of those people. His use of public humiliation, the obvious attempts to isolate players from speaking, the umbrage taken due to EGs 'violation' of norms while at the same time violating norms himself by disgracing his player, and the night before the news broke we got to see him in an interview during the Code A finals where he sounded more like a robot than a person and seemed to just be speaking the words that he thought would make people like him the most. No I don't trust that guy one bit, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of coercive emotional control happening in that team, not healthy team spirit or team loyalty.. but guilt and/or fear.
|
On August 05 2011 17:00 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:34 Ribbon wrote:On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? Yes. Because I'm salaried. As presumably is Fruitdealer. If I spend 6 hours a day on Reddit or TL at work, I expect to get yelled at, written up, and eventually fired. I don't expect my boss to come up and say "Actually you're not worth what we agreed upon. I am altering the agreement. Pray I don't alter it further." You can't just retroactively and unilaterally renegotiate a contract, even a verbal one, without even warning the other party. Except Coach Lee didnt alter any agreements at all
Withholding salaries but still using their images after they have quit is most definately "altering a verbal contract".
|
On August 05 2011 17:00 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:34 Ribbon wrote:On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? Yes. Because I'm salaried. As presumably is Fruitdealer. If I spend 6 hours a day on Reddit or TL at work, I expect to get yelled at, written up, and eventually fired. I don't expect my boss to come up and say "Actually you're not worth what we agreed upon. I am altering the agreement. Pray I don't alter it further." You can't just retroactively and unilaterally renegotiate a contract, even a verbal one, without even warning the other party. Except Coach Lee didnt alter any agreements at all
Not paying wages after the fact is either unilaterally altering an agreement, or a crime. Fraud, perhaps?
|
On August 05 2011 17:00 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:34 Ribbon wrote:On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? Yes. Because I'm salaried. As presumably is Fruitdealer. If I spend 6 hours a day on Reddit or TL at work, I expect to get yelled at, written up, and eventually fired. I don't expect my boss to come up and say "Actually you're not worth what we agreed upon. I am altering the agreement. Pray I don't alter it further." You can't just retroactively and unilaterally renegotiate a contract, even a verbal one, without even warning the other party. Except Coach Lee didnt alter any agreements at all
lol this almost sounds like an attempt at defending coach lee.. youre just setting yourself up for a "no but he withheld payment without prior notice."
|
Quite shocking for all this to come out suddenly, It sheds a whole new light on the EG situation in my eyes and it concerns me that this was even able to happen in the first place.
|
|
|
On August 05 2011 17:19 Excludos wrote:
Withholding salaries but still using their images after they have quit is most definately "altering a verbal contract".
Um, what G.Skill does is not TSL's responsibility.
On August 05 2011 17:23 Nightfall.589 wrote:
Not paying wages after the fact is either unilaterally altering an agreement, or a crime. Fraud, perhaps?
Are you saying that FD+Trickster deserves to go to jail? A bit extreme perhaps?
On August 05 2011 17:28 Angelbelow wrote:
lol this almost sounds like an attempt at defending coach lee.. youre just setting yourself up for a "no but he withheld payment without prior notice."
They had 30 days worth of notice.
|
Seems like such an odd way to behave... I really don't get it
|
That's unfortunate, Coach Lee seems like a nice guy.
|
It's funny how people think EG is bad and TSL is in the right WHEN THEY DON'T READ THE POSTS LOL.
PUMA WAS NOT ON CONTRACT.
EG 4 LyFE.
just kidding. But seriously, read the posts before commenting about how 'shitty' one person or another is. Puma was never contracted, TSL did not pay him, EG did nothing wrong and it's pretty clear the coach is a mess.
|
Between EG's response about Lee and this post about Lee, he seems like a really shady/bad coach..
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
