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On August 05 2011 17:50 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 17:19 Excludos wrote:
Withholding salaries but still using their images after they have quit is most definately "altering a verbal contract". Um, what G.Skill does is not TSL's responsibility.
Please read the op. Its stated that TSL recieved the sponsor money, but decided to not pay their players.
On August 05 2011 17:50 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 17:23 Nightfall.589 wrote:
Not paying wages after the fact is either unilaterally altering an agreement, or a crime. Fraud, perhaps? Are you saying that FD+Trickster deserves to go to jail? A bit extreme perhaps?
Thats clearly not what he said or meant. Why bother?
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On August 05 2011 18:36 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 17:50 b_unnies wrote:On August 05 2011 17:19 Excludos wrote:
Withholding salaries but still using their images after they have quit is most definately "altering a verbal contract". Um, what G.Skill does is not TSL's responsibility. Please read the op. Its stated that TSL recieved the sponsor money, but decided to not pay their players.
Please read the entire thread. I have addressed each and every single point of the article
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I wonder how Coaches really contribute to e-sports. Besides the obvious financial support through sponsors, and organisation... I really don't see how players can improve if not via mental/emotional support. The bar level in SC2 is not that very high, and the simplified mechanics only add to its easy use when compared to SC1.
While Blizzard said somewhere along the lines of 'Its about strategy rather than how fast you execute something'. To be honest, how fast you can do something, leads on to your strategy. A fat football player may have a strategy, but how is he going to execute it if he wasn't at top shape? The analogy is... if everyone was equally huge and buff, then no one really is.
E-sports is a complicated thing to perceive... and with only 5,000 salary per month or so is really low. I hope it improves better for the future!
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On August 05 2011 18:40 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 18:36 Excludos wrote:On August 05 2011 17:50 b_unnies wrote:On August 05 2011 17:19 Excludos wrote:
Withholding salaries but still using their images after they have quit is most definately "altering a verbal contract". Um, what G.Skill does is not TSL's responsibility. Please read the op. Its stated that TSL recieved the sponsor money, but decided to not pay their players. Please read the entire thread. I have addressed each and every single point of the article
You clearly didn't, as you didn't even bother respond to my counterpoint.
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On August 05 2011 18:51 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 18:40 b_unnies wrote:On August 05 2011 18:36 Excludos wrote:On August 05 2011 17:50 b_unnies wrote:On August 05 2011 17:19 Excludos wrote:
Withholding salaries but still using their images after they have quit is most definately "altering a verbal contract". Um, what G.Skill does is not TSL's responsibility. Please read the op. Its stated that TSL recieved the sponsor money, but decided to not pay their players. Please read the entire thread. I have addressed each and every single point of the article You clearly didn't, as you didn't even bother respond to my counterpoint.
You just proved you didn't read the entire thread as I have addressed it multiple times in multiple pages
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On August 05 2011 18:54 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 18:51 Excludos wrote:On August 05 2011 18:40 b_unnies wrote:On August 05 2011 18:36 Excludos wrote:On August 05 2011 17:50 b_unnies wrote:On August 05 2011 17:19 Excludos wrote:
Withholding salaries but still using their images after they have quit is most definately "altering a verbal contract". Um, what G.Skill does is not TSL's responsibility. Please read the op. Its stated that TSL recieved the sponsor money, but decided to not pay their players. Please read the entire thread. I have addressed each and every single point of the article You clearly didn't, as you didn't even bother respond to my counterpoint. You just proved you didn't read the entire thread as I have addressed it multiple times in multiple pages
No. I'll admit I havent read the entire 51 pages, I apologise for that.
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On August 05 2011 18:43 rnCsaFe wrote:
While Blizzard said somewhere along the lines of 'Its about strategy rather than how fast you execute something'. To be honest, how fast you can do something, leads on to your strategy. A fat football player may have a strategy, but how is he going to execute it if he wasn't at top shape? The analogy is... if everyone was equally huge and buff, then no one really is.
A fat chess player may have a strategy, but how is he going to execute it if he wasn't at top shape? Oh wait...
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On August 05 2011 17:17 Demidyne wrote:
The fact is that most people of intelligence found Mr Lee's behavior odd during the Puma incident and were also not immediately convinced of the "FD and Trickster are lazy so they want to leave TSL and go drink and party in StarTale" explanation. I believe Mr Lee is an unscrupulous character who created and used the Puma situation to both harm international e-sports relations and attempted to expand the power of coaches and the SC2PA towards his own personal agenda. I said this both during the FD/Trickster arc and the Puma arc. Honestly it came as absolutely no surprise to me when this news popped up, in fact I was expecting "something" to come to light involving the TSL team.
Perhaps I am a bit biased, I study domestic violence, particularly methods of coercive control and have read hundreds of accounts of emotionally coercive non-violent relationships across dozens of ethnicities and cultures and Mr Lee's actions fit disturbingly into some of the patterns of those people. His use of public humiliation, the obvious attempts to isolate players from speaking, the umbrage taken due to EGs 'violation' of norms while at the same time violating norms himself by disgracing his player, and the night before the news broke we got to see him in an interview during the Code A finals where he sounded more like a robot than a person and seemed to just be speaking the words that he thought would make people like him the most. No I don't trust that guy one bit, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of coercive emotional control happening in that team, not healthy team spirit or team loyalty.. but guilt and/or fear.
I 100% agree. The thing that set off the alarm for me was the amount of public slander and reputational lynching Lee set on Puma for leaving, despite Puma's sensitivity in wanting to personally talk to Lee in private about switching to EG. There was an overwhelming and unjustifiable amount of unprofessionalism (read: amount of butthurt) coming from Lee, who basically made it feel like Puma OWED it to him and TSL to stay, using terms such as "respect" and "loyalty" as a front, for as we now know, Lee's selfish monetary gains.
Good thing this came to light, and Lee is exposed for the person he is: a self-victimizing double-speaker that attempts to control his environment through coercive emotional control. Not a good person to associate with professionally, and definitely not a good person to associate with personally.
Glad the other managers saw through the smoke as well, and expelled TSL from SC2con. I just hope the players remaining on TSL are going to be alright.
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On August 05 2011 19:37 Gov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 18:43 rnCsaFe wrote:
While Blizzard said somewhere along the lines of 'Its about strategy rather than how fast you execute something'. To be honest, how fast you can do something, leads on to your strategy. A fat football player may have a strategy, but how is he going to execute it if he wasn't at top shape? The analogy is... if everyone was equally huge and buff, then no one really is.
A fat chess player may have a strategy, but how is he going to execute it if he wasn't at top shape? Oh wait...
good point
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On August 05 2011 20:05 Bababooey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 17:17 Demidyne wrote:
The fact is that most people of intelligence found Mr Lee's behavior odd during the Puma incident and were also not immediately convinced of the "FD and Trickster are lazy so they want to leave TSL and go drink and party in StarTale" explanation. I believe Mr Lee is an unscrupulous character who created and used the Puma situation to both harm international e-sports relations and attempted to expand the power of coaches and the SC2PA towards his own personal agenda. I said this both during the FD/Trickster arc and the Puma arc. Honestly it came as absolutely no surprise to me when this news popped up, in fact I was expecting "something" to come to light involving the TSL team.
Perhaps I am a bit biased, I study domestic violence, particularly methods of coercive control and have read hundreds of accounts of emotionally coercive non-violent relationships across dozens of ethnicities and cultures and Mr Lee's actions fit disturbingly into some of the patterns of those people. His use of public humiliation, the obvious attempts to isolate players from speaking, the umbrage taken due to EGs 'violation' of norms while at the same time violating norms himself by disgracing his player, and the night before the news broke we got to see him in an interview during the Code A finals where he sounded more like a robot than a person and seemed to just be speaking the words that he thought would make people like him the most. No I don't trust that guy one bit, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of coercive emotional control happening in that team, not healthy team spirit or team loyalty.. but guilt and/or fear. I 100% agree. The thing that set off the alarm for me was the amount of public slander and reputational lynching Lee set on Puma for leaving, despite Puma's sensitivity in wanting to personally talk to Lee in private about switching to EG. There was an overwhelming and unjustifiable amount of unprofessionalism (read: amount of butthurt) coming from Lee, who basically made it feel like Puma OWED it to him and TSL to stay, using terms such as "respect" and "loyalty" as a front, for as we now know, Lee's selfish monetary gains. Good thing this came to light, and Lee is exposed for the person he is: a self-victimizing double-speaker that attempts to control his environment through coercive emotional control. Not a good person to associate with professionally, and definitely not a good person to associate with personally. Glad the other managers saw through the smoke as well, and expelled TSL from SC2con. I just hope the players remaining on TSL are going to be alright.
Both quoted posts make so many assumption my head is hurting from reading them.
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On August 05 2011 20:05 Bababooey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 17:17 Demidyne wrote:
The fact is that most people of intelligence found Mr Lee's behavior odd during the Puma incident and were also not immediately convinced of the "FD and Trickster are lazy so they want to leave TSL and go drink and party in StarTale" explanation. I believe Mr Lee is an unscrupulous character who created and used the Puma situation to both harm international e-sports relations and attempted to expand the power of coaches and the SC2PA towards his own personal agenda. I said this both during the FD/Trickster arc and the Puma arc. Honestly it came as absolutely no surprise to me when this news popped up, in fact I was expecting "something" to come to light involving the TSL team.
Perhaps I am a bit biased, I study domestic violence, particularly methods of coercive control and have read hundreds of accounts of emotionally coercive non-violent relationships across dozens of ethnicities and cultures and Mr Lee's actions fit disturbingly into some of the patterns of those people. His use of public humiliation, the obvious attempts to isolate players from speaking, the umbrage taken due to EGs 'violation' of norms while at the same time violating norms himself by disgracing his player, and the night before the news broke we got to see him in an interview during the Code A finals where he sounded more like a robot than a person and seemed to just be speaking the words that he thought would make people like him the most. No I don't trust that guy one bit, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of coercive emotional control happening in that team, not healthy team spirit or team loyalty.. but guilt and/or fear. I 100% agree. The thing that set off the alarm for me was the amount of public slander and reputational lynching Lee set on Puma for leaving, despite Puma's sensitivity in wanting to personally talk to Lee in private about switching to EG. There was an overwhelming and unjustifiable amount of unprofessionalism (read: amount of butthurt) coming from Lee, who basically made it feel like Puma OWED it to him and TSL to stay, using terms such as "respect" and "loyalty" as a front, for as we now know, Lee's selfish monetary gains. Good thing this came to light, and Lee is exposed for the person he is: a self-victimizing double-speaker that attempts to control his environment through coercive emotional control. Not a good person to associate with professionally, and definitely not a good person to associate with personally. Glad the other managers saw through the smoke as well, and expelled TSL from SC2con. I just hope the players remaining on TSL are going to be alright.
There's also the little detail that he talked to Puma, they had a "good chat", let me leave for EG, then threw a going away party for Puma. After the party, he went and whined really nasty to the Korean SC2 sites. If you're pissed off about another company's actions, you call the other company. He could have found EG's number and started yelling. Knifing a player in the back, publicly, was a really underhanded move. It didn't speak well to his business acumen.
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On August 05 2011 19:37 Gov wrote:
A fat chess player may have a strategy, but how is he going to execute it if he wasn't at top shape? Oh wait...
Mate, i think you need to think before you start posting 'clever' one liners. Your suggestion on Chess actually supports my agenda. I'm saying that if 'everyone' is capable of executing a strategy with relative ease - there exists only a thin distinction between 'pro-gamers' and 'hardcores', and 'casuals'.
There are heaps of arguments for this, but you get the idea. The competition in SC2 is very huge, very hard to be successful and can be inconsistent. It will all come down to balance and maps. (Why is Flash and Jaedong always at the top in sc1? Is it because their strategy are good? Or is it their mechanics?) Blizzard is lowering these 'mechanics' required by improving the AI to ease the bar levels in SC2.
There is a reason why some current pro-gamers like MarineKing, who were unsuccessful in SC1, but are now successful in SC2. Correlation of things? Just my view.
So to end this, Coaches like Lee believe that they can exploit players and limit their potential. In reality, they don't provide anymore than emotional/financial support. (I personally don't believe that strategies exclusively come from Coaches in the context of SC2).
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Is this manager the same Lee as SuperDanielMan that used to cast the GOM Intel Classics with Tasteless?
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On August 05 2011 21:52 Mr.Brightside wrote:
Is this manager the same Lee as SuperDanielMan that used to cast the GOM Intel Classics with Tasteless?
I think I know who you mean and no hes not. Manager Lee used to work for MBCGame Hero BW team. He was seen in a reality show called Hyungjoon Becomes A Progamer coaching the team.
As from the show I got the appearance that Lee is a nice guy who cares about his players. But after these recent incidents I must say im shocked and very disappointed with him...
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I can't believe this is the same Mama Bear.... i don't know what to think of this
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errors on both sides; good to see its good resolved though.
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Blasterion's tagline is very ironic in this thread.
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On August 06 2011 02:17 Primadog wrote:
Blasterion's tagline is very ironic in this thread.
it's just your imagination
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Only those with innate magical affinities can see or hear Kyubey.
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they are so much more lenient than keSPA lmao
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EPT
