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On August 02 2011 22:31 lolsixtynine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:27 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
It would be really cool if such a change worked well from a balance standpoint and did in fact allow for more lategame harassment as toss. The question is whether you can get a supply cap at which lategame armies start to suffer from diminishing returns sufficiently that having an extra 20 supply in a fight doesn't mean an autowin. Otherwise you're just increasing the size of the Protoss deathball by 7 Colossi O.o See the important thing is that (I'm assuming we're talking about ZvP) it takes longer for the Protoss to reach the max army, and also for the Zerg, so if a Z player is better he can still have a supply lead for longer.
That's an interesting point. I wasn't talking about PvZ specifically, but just about the advantage the previous poster was positing for having an increased unit cap. The only reason it's not as effective (not 'completely ineffective', just less effective than I understand to be the case in BW) to have a few supply off harassing currently is that dividing your army weakens it substantially relative to an army that sticks together. If you increase the food cap beyond the point where diminishing returns make that extra 10 food less cost effective in the army than harassing, then you could start seeing more harassment and divided-up armies with skirmishes taking place in multiple locations.
The point you bring up actually scares me a bit, though. I don't think I want to spend that long with Z at a large supply advantage...
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In BW, Zerg had to be worried about Sair/Zealot, Sair/reaver, Sair/DT, HT drops, DT drops and everything. In SC2, Zerg has to worry about air and DTs, so they make spores and continue droning. If Protoss had a reaver, could zerg still drone like Nestea? Hmm...
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They definitly should bring back something like that reaver vs reaver PvP. Good times. Also give terran back mines. Make mech a more viable option for T! I hope they scrap or change the Immortal too for that reason.
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On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown
Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line.
Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing.
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On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing.
Yea,but you could scout the shuttle coming in and behind you mineral line.Colossus cliff walking and one shotting workers would be just bad map design.
For example the good old http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Kulas_Ravine
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On August 02 2011 23:13 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing. Yea,but you could scout the shuttle coming in and behind you mineral line.Colossus cliff walking and one shotting workers would be just bad map design.
As I remember their reason was that Colossi melted low health units too quickly (like the hydra), so the enemy did not have the chance to deal damage back.
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On August 02 2011 23:22 Jurassic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:13 TheKefka wrote:On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing. Yea,but you could scout the shuttle coming in and behind you mineral line.Colossus cliff walking and one shotting workers would be just bad map design. As I remember their reason was that Colossi melted low health units too quickly (like the hydra), so the enemy did not have the chance to deal damage back.
That's not my point.My point was that with a effective harass unit,if you get into the mineral line you should be almost guaranteed to do some heavy damage,if your enemy fails to react.
So there's nothing bad about units that one shot things and have a very slow attack speed and movement.
The problem with the colossus was that it was too mobile on his own,so it was a moving sieged tank.
I'm a protoss and i hate the colossus from the bottom of my hear.I almost never make that unit.I would be the happiest person in the world if they take it away and give us something like the reaver or just buff the gateway units overall.
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I don't play P all that much, are Phoenix and DTs used in standard army comps now and not used for harassing anymore?
I'll only accept a zerg siege unit if it's a blatent rip off of the bug siege things from starship troopers that are essentially sporecrawlers, but they rip battlecruisers in half in 1 shot. ya.... :D
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On August 02 2011 23:26 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:22 Jurassic wrote:On August 02 2011 23:13 TheKefka wrote:On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing. Yea,but you could scout the shuttle coming in and behind you mineral line.Colossus cliff walking and one shotting workers would be just bad map design. As I remember their reason was that Colossi melted low health units too quickly (like the hydra), so the enemy did not have the chance to deal damage back. That's not my point.My point was that with a effective harass unit,if you get into the mineral line you should be almost guaranteed to do some heavy damage,if your enemy fails to react. So there's nothing bad about units that one shot things and have a very slow attack speed and movement. The problem with the colossus was that it was too mobile on his own,so it was a moving sieged tank. I'm a protoss and i hate the colossus from the bottom of my hear.I almost never make that unit.I would be the happiest person in the world if they take it away and give us something like the reaver or just buff the gateway units overall.
I agree, I just responded to "bring back old Colossus damage". It wouldn't work.
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On August 02 2011 23:28 CidO wrote:
I'll only accept a zerg siege unit if it's a blatent rip off of the bug siege things from starship troopers that are essentially sporecrawlers
well given that the starship troopers bugs are a rip-off the original starcraft zerg that might make the cycle complete.
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On August 02 2011 23:36 okrane wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:28 CidO wrote:
I'll only accept a zerg siege unit if it's a blatent rip off of the bug siege things from starship troopers that are essentially sporecrawlers well given that the starship troopers bugs are a rip-off the original starcraft zerg that might make the cycle complete.
Check the publication date of the book and the games?
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On August 02 2011 23:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:32 Fig wrote:
Anyone remember when the colossus had high damage high cooldown? If they aren't going to take it out, at least change it back to that. Then you could actually get something out of microing them. At the moment the only thing to do is a-move.
As a protoss, colossi are incredibly boring to use, but because they made this change so long ago I doubt they will give us reavers since reavers are an even more extreme version of this mechanic. Tons of damage extremely long cooldown. I don't know why blizzard doesn't like that but it would make the unit microable, something all protosses would welcome.
TLDR: give us reavers or change colossus back to high damage high cooldown Actually, wasn't the potential for harassment the reason Colossi had their damage output changed in the first place? They were one-shotting workers, if I remember correctly, which seems a bit problematic for a unit that can cliff-walk, fire from siege range and deal splash damage. I'm toss and love killing me some workers, but I really can see the issue with potentially having 0 time to respond to an attack that can potentially completely clear a mineral line. Though, arguably, Reavers in BW could do the same thing.
No offense, but there is just no way that THIS could be a reason.
What about a flock of mutas/banshees? What about a bunch of blue flame hellions? (lol..) What about baneling-bombs? What about even a simple dropship full of marines with stim? List goes on...
In all these cases workers WILL die if I don't react quickly. And rightly so. Since the amount of colossi that fit into one prism is actually quite limited (again: lol...) I don't see any problem here. If my opponent has one unit that can hit air, it can hit both the prism and the colossus "for free", meaning without taking damage, so I will lose these units with 100% certainty.
Compare this to double medivac drop, even if I spot it in time, marine/marauder/medivac still fights insanely cost-effective vs anything that's supposed to "clean up" the drop. The only real counter to medivac drops are HTs, and even then the medivac has to have enough energy on it to explode.
I realize we are on the "same side" here, but I think you are a little bit too soft on our enemies here  They actually do have the ability to clear mineral-lines in seconds, so I don't see a problem if we had the same. Especially if its a high-tier unit and especially since the warpprism is made of paper and uses valuable robo-production-time and doesn't serve another purpose (like medivac-heal which is awsome in itself)
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Lurker.. please please please please please please please.
I don't see it happening, blizzard says they aren't ashamed to put it in, I'm afraid they are tho. Also hydra speed upgrade would be great. (Or any change to the hydra. If lurkers come with the current hydra (unlikely), they will just be used purely for lurkers...)
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On August 03 2011 00:00 sleepingdog wrote:
No offense, but there is just no way that THIS could be a reason.
It wasn't, AFAIK. It was because Blizz was worried about PvZ, with Colossi clearing out all Hydras in seconds, they thought Hydras would be useless in that match-up, ironically enough.
On August 03 2011 00:00 sleepingdog wrote:What about a flock of mutas/banshees? What about a bunch of blue flame hellions? (lol..) What about baneling-bombs? What about even a simple dropship full of marines with stim? List goes on... In all these cases workers WILL die if I don't react quickly. And rightly so. Since the amount of colossi that fit into one prism is actually quite limited (again: lol...) I don't see any problem here. If my opponent has one unit that can hit air, it can hit both the prism and the colossus "for free", meaning without taking damage, so I will lose these units with 100% certainty. Compare this to double medivac drop, even if I spot it in time, marine/marauder/medivac still fights insanely cost-effective vs anything that's supposed to "clean up" the drop. The only real counter to medivac drops are HTs, and even then the medivac has to have enough energy on it to explode. I realize we are on the "same side" here, but I think you are a little bit too soft on our enemies here They actually do have the ability to clear mineral-lines in seconds, so I don't see a problem if we had the same. Especially if its a high-tier unit and especially since the warpprism is made of paper and uses valuable robo-production-time and doesn't serve another purpose (like medivac-heal which is awsome in itself)
Improving Colossi/the Warp Prism is not the solution, as Zerg will still only have to spam Spore Crawlers to survive.
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On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively.
This is the most hilarious post on TL to date.
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To all the people saying "remove baneling and give lurkers" or "baneling fulfills lurker role", it really doesn't. Lurker is essentially a cloaked unit when burrowed, and using infested terrans is too wishy washy for what you want to do. Lurker and baneling are different enough to warrant the existance of both.
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On August 03 2011 00:07 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 00:00 sleepingdog wrote:
No offense, but there is just no way that THIS could be a reason. It wasn't, AFAIK. It was because Blizz was worried about PvZ, with Colossi clearing out all Hydras in seconds, they thought Hydras would be useless in that match-up, ironically enough.
I didn't play beta, so this is actually hilarious to me right now haha
Improving Colossi/the Warp Prism is not the solution, as Zerg will still only have to spam Spore Crawlers to survive.
I agree. My post was simply to state that I strongly disagree that toss shouldn't have an effective (!) harassment-unit since the other races also have access to units that clear out mineral-lines in split-seconds. Blue-flame hellions and baneling-drops especially. Unspotted, they do insane damage - and rightly so.
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On August 02 2011 22:58 Micket wrote:
In BW, Zerg had to be worried about Sair/Zealot, Sair/reaver, Sair/DT, HT drops, DT drops and everything. In SC2, Zerg has to worry about air and DTs, so they make spores and continue droning. If Protoss had a reaver, could zerg still drone like Nestea? Hmm...
Uhmmm, that's not all zerg has to worry about lol
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On August 02 2011 23:28 CidO wrote:
I don't play P all that much, are Phoenix and DTs used in standard army comps now and not used for harassing anymore?
I'll only accept a zerg siege unit if it's a blatent rip off of the bug siege things from starship troopers that are essentially sporecrawlers, but they rip battlecruisers in half in 1 shot. ya.... :D
To answer the first part zerg are getting better at building spore crawlers so DT and phoenix harassment isn't as effective as it used to be.
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As a protoss please make Zerg more "swarmy". Like seriously fix the Roach. It should be 1 supply and weaker instead of the fucking beast unit it is now. IMO ofc 
Edit: Also make it so that P can harass with a unit that isn't countered by 1 building, early-mid game. The Colossi could also use a change (maybe a red laser coming from it that does no damage like the HSM for a few seconds and then if fires with higher dam and lower attack speed) ,the same goes for the Raven, Corrupter, Hellion, Marauder and the Roach as I said above.
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EPT
