"MLG will no longer be making replays of Tournament matches available to the public. We realize that this has been a popular feature, but unfortunately replay packs contain data which can be used to DDOS the player- and the event. Because of the volume of replays we have to process during an event, we are unable to strip that information out of the files before publication.
We realize that a large number of matches are played offstream at Pro Circuit Competitions. After MLG Anaheim, we will be sending replay packs out to selected groups of casters, so that these never-before-seen matches can be commentated and then released for everyone to see. "
I am disappointed in this because I really liked going through replays from Cbus and watching a lot of the open bracket players. Plus it also allows people in the community to see all the new and interesting strategies and styles that come out during MLG.
Anyone else think this sucks?
This is probably important/someone may ask since I had the same question. Here is what Rich and a few others have said about the details of replay files.
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
EDIT: DDOS is a poor choice of words in our release. Chat spam on the game clients which lags the game is what was meant. EDIT: And yes, I know you can find other ways to get to the same information. But I can't stop those. I can reduce risk on things I can control. Not taking those steps is negligent.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
Sundance posted this via twitter today however.
@MLGSundance Sundance DiGiovanni Working out the plan 4 releasing Anaheim SC2 replays. @MLGLee and Clap are the guys you want to thank for this. Official word coming soon.
I don't understand how you can get the IP from the replays? Don't they get released after the event is done anyways? And how do players that go home after the event get affected by that?
I don't have a problem with them not releasing them as the tournament is happening (as they have been doing) but I'm not a fan of them releasing them only to a few caster before releasing them publicly. After the tournament, they should all be available to everyone.
I could've swore that someone like Sundance said they were going to just delay the replays after Columbus.
And they don't get the IP (I believe) from replays, they get the character names and codes and spam the players on battlenet, basically causing a ddos during the game and lagging the players.
Remember last time when people were pausing casted matches after a message from an "admin"? It was that sort of trolling that caused this. Hopefully they'll re-think or be able to release well after the fact, as identifiers for most pro's NA accounts aren't exactly un-common knowledge.
This could also be solved if Blizz made a proper "invis" mode and not just busy, given spam through a busy status (and/or the channel invites) can lag people out due to other bugs.
On July 30 2011 05:14 Emporio wrote: I don't understand how you can get the IP from the replays? Don't they get released after the event is done anyways? And how do players that go home after the event get affected by that?
Yes exactly my thoughts. I am no specialist in this but I don't see the how the IP's from computers at the event correlate to getting DDOS'd on their home computer.
Are the VOD's for MLG free of charge? If they aren't I can understand why the they would do this.
On July 30 2011 05:17 Emporio wrote: Oh, I see, they are still releasing replays, just after the entire tournament is over?
no, they are not releasing them to the public, period. They will release them to a small selected group of, presumably well known, casters who will cast the games they want and post them to their respective sites/youtube. So we can get some VOD casted games, but not the actual replays.
On July 30 2011 05:14 Numy wrote: That explanation makes zero sense. This sucks. Seems like a new avenue to make money from.
I don't understand why you're saying this. If there's just a tiny bit of truth in the claim that it can be used to DDoS either players or the event itself, you must consider MLGs past history with technical difficulties and then understand why they won't take any chances.
It was a really nice feature, but by no means essential. Full support from me.
Ahhhh this sucks. I basically stole every build I have used for the last month and a half from the MLG Columbus pack, and I was DYING to get some blood infused.
On July 30 2011 05:14 Numy wrote: That explanation makes zero sense. This sucks. Seems like a new avenue to make money from.
I don't understand why you're saying this. If there's just a tiny bit of truth in the claim that it can be used to DDoS either players or the event itself, you must consider MLGs past history with technical difficulties and then understand why they won't take any chances.
It was a really nice feature, but by no means essential. Full support from me.
If it was because of a possible security breach at the event then releasing the replays later wouldn't be effected by this. So I don't see any truth to that claim. Sure not releasing replays during could very well be because of it but not releasing them after the event in case of a breach after the fact? Makes no sense
On July 30 2011 05:13 kedinik wrote: I'm really curious why an SC2 replay would encode the data that makes DDoS possible.
Does Blizzard ever request a replay to support cheating claims? If they did, then it might prove useful to have details (such as IP I guess?) being used at that exact time.
I can only assume data such as the players IP is included, or the server IP etc if they are worried about DDOS.
I think they just mean you can get the players/casters character code. The DDOS attack is simply spamming them messages on bnet, which lags their client (even when you put yourself on busy the client still receives and has to process the messages).
It would be nice if someone who understands it could explain it further as I was unaware you could pull anything from the replays. There are packets being sent however, I believe. I know one set is packets showing chat messages ONLY to allies, such as in teamgames, I believe. Their reason is definitely justified, however.
Sucks but the reason many of the games last event had lag/pauses/delays was because idiots were spamming them ingame after parsing the information out of the replay files. Last time Losira and MMA got screwed with mid-game, I'd rather it not happen this time.
Edit: To explain it further, when you put Busy mode on, Battle.net still saves all messages sent to you. At a certain point there's way too much information for battle.net to save so it flushes it all out to the player at once lagging them out big time.
Damn, main reason I loved MLG is if I saw a player I loved to a sexy build I could simply watch the replay and learn it, rather than have to try and decipher the build through the cast or look up other replays of the same player and hope they do the same thing.
On July 30 2011 05:17 AlBundy wrote: Good news! Personally I'm against releasing Progamers' replays so good news. Also it helps fighting the hackers so it's all good.
Good News?
This is horrible news, I get so much value from these replays. For me this takes away a lot. sucks so bad
haha internet would be so awesome without people using it. Anyway if that is an issue they could simply tell blizzard to add an option, so replays replaces the account data with player 1 2 etc. Done in a heartbeat.
I think though that won't help as the accounts are easy to look up in ladder.
Don't know much about computers, but I do know alot about business and if MLG can figure out a way to make the files secure they should only release them to people who paid for a ticket to that particular event. Having said that, they could be rehosted somewhere so maybe the hits on their webpage is incentive enough.
I agree that they should protect the players privacy.
Maybe they can make some sort of deal with the players in wich they (MLG) ask after each series if they (the players) have any objection in uploading the games they just played.
On July 30 2011 05:28 xBillehx wrote: Sucks but the reason many of the games last event had lag/pauses/delays was because idiots were spamming them ingame after parsing the information out of the replay files. Last time Losira and MMA got screwed with mid-game, I'd rather it not happen this time.
Edit: To explain it further, when you put Busy mode on, Battle.net still saves all messages sent to you. At a certain point there's way too much information for battle.net to save so it flushes it all out to the player at once lagging them out big time.
This would be solved if Blizzard enabled a LAN feature, right?
>We realize that this has been a popular feature, but unfortunately replay packs contain data which can be used to DDOS the player- and the event.
I can only think of the identifier ... I can't fathom a way with which they could DDOS the players with that? Maybe they picked the wrong term, if they don't want to straight up release the replays during the tournament that's completely fine. But this:
>Because of the volume of replays we have to process during an event, we are unable to strip that information out of the files before publication.
I just cannot believe. Stuff like this can be solved programmatically. If this is seriously only the character code (and what else is it gonna be) then even a programming novice could manage to strip that data from the replays. I don't buy the explanation that the whole of MLG doesn't field a single programmer that is capable of doing so.
I think they received complaints from teams & players saying that they don't want their replays released and they are coming up with a weird explanation like above. This is my theory .. I'd gladly be proven wrong.
Blame blizzard, not MLG. This must be done because as we all know, the players were getting constantly spammed during matches in Cbus. Sad, but a necessary change until Blizzard gets their heads out of their asses and fix this stuff.
Man that sucks Guess i'm not stealing any BO's from HuK or nAni this time around... Well, unless Day[J] is a total boss and does dailies on Anaheim games.
I totally understand the reasoning behind this though.
This is to prevent DDOS and other tournament ruining stuff from happening. You can hardly blame MLG. This is just a massive blunder by Blizzard.
Its absolutely amazing to see how Blizzard can be so insistent on cutting out LAN and yet they find 100 different ways to fuck up tournaments running online.
This is the problem with replays and why I will always be against organizations releasing them. I'm sure a lot of people are upset about this but I think it is a problem that so many people are able to have access to the players replays without their permission.
WOW MLG are you ****** joking It starts at 3 am for me so i can't watch it and also you dont release replays Totally ruined every glimpse of fun for me and 2 days ago i was thinking of purchasing HD pass for 1st time for any event.. Good that i didnt make this mistake
On July 30 2011 05:28 xBillehx wrote: Sucks but the reason many of the games last event had lag/pauses/delays was because idiots were spamming them ingame after parsing the information out of the replay files. Last time Losira and MMA got screwed with mid-game, I'd rather it not happen this time.
Edit: To explain it further, when you put Busy mode on, Battle.net still saves all messages sent to you. At a certain point there's way too much information for battle.net to save so it flushes it all out to the player at once lagging them out big time.
This would be solved if Blizzard enabled a LAN feature, right?
Yes, it's about time for blizzard to release tournament lan, players getting harassed at tournaments is just silly for an esport.
There maybe an encoding issue in the Replays we don't know about? Something that's hiding data in them? This is still an Activision product, so you never know.
I think asking them to release the whole pack *after* the tournament could suffice?
wow, this is a pretty pathetic excuse for not releasing replays - sounds like a bogus, low-possibility excuse/reason, when they really just want to be able to sell them to other casters, force people to subscribe for VOD access, all other kinds of garbage
There should be no issue wth releasing the replays after the event as every single player wig any ounce of fame has replays on the net already.
Release them a week after the event. Not releasing them is a SERIOUS blow to one of the best learning tools for a huge population, especially in the NA and EU regions.
Imagine TvP without select's run at DC being there to be picked apart. Its progression would have been much slower than it was.
The replay packs of MLG are seriously an assest to the NA and EU scenes and denying that asset will only stifle the overall skill progression in these regions.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... One of the main things that are awesome from MLG are the replays. It's just different when you're watching the replay yourself, rather than watching a caster cast it. You can learn so much more.. You can actually see the details that casters often just leave out.
Oh well.. That sucks.. At least delay the release of replays?
Once again a minority are ruining the fun for others. |: I hope we still get a batch replay pack at the end. But if we dont I wont be to sad because that is the price for having koreans at MLG.
Worst idea ever, I mean if you plan on doing this, atleast get more favorable casters imo. Day9 is good but the other 3 are on the other side of the fence. Why not release them AFTER the event with the info stripped or even make a parser to strip the info.
On July 30 2011 05:15 Termit wrote: Well, it sucks that someone always has to ruin it for everybody else by being a jackass. So sick of it.
Agreed.
I'm happy they're letting us know in advance though, and giving us an explanation so that we don't think there's any shady business or laziness going on ^^
if they release replays to the general public after MLG Anaheim is complete, then I'm completely fine with the decision
the DDOS mentioned in OP refers to people mass whispering players over battle.net. apparently, even if the player sets their status to busy, the whisper is still sent but the player just doesn't see the whisper message.
I never downloaded their replays so it doesn't affect me but it does suck for those who do, there's a lot of fun and interesting games that are never found and now we deffinatly won't get them :/
On July 30 2011 05:36 leova wrote: wow, this is a pretty pathetic excuse for not releasing replays - sounds like a bogus, low-possibility excuse/reason, when they really just want to be able to sell them to other casters, force people to subscribe for VOD access, all other kinds of garbage
DDoS via a replay? lawlz
Take your tinfoil hat off and read the explanations in this thread. You can parse the character code from replay files. Using the character code and the players name, idiots can then add the players names and spam them messages constantly. Even though players are set to busy, Battle.net saves the messages in order to send them all out once the player leaves the game. However, Battle.net can only save so much information, so when the idiots spam spam spam spam it overloads and flushes out all messages at once, lagging the player out mid-game damaging the integrity of the tournament. Yes this is Blizzard's issue to work with, yes it would be solved with LAN, but no MLG is not at fault and their response to protect the integrity of the tournament is completely valid. Sucks but necessary.
I'm sure if we make a big enough fuss they'll consider releasing them after, but keep in mind that effectively means any accounts they used this event become compromised and they'll need to acquire more for the next event.
On July 30 2011 05:41 udgnim wrote: if they release replays to the general public after MLG Anaheim is complete, then I'm completely fine with the decision
the DDOS mentioned in OP refers to people mass whispering players over battle.net. apparently, even if the player sets their status to busy, the whisper is still sent but the player just doesn't see the whisper message.
how would this stop it? people could just find their name/id on like sc2ranks and stuff.
On July 30 2011 05:36 leova wrote: wow, this is a pretty pathetic excuse for not releasing replays - sounds like a bogus, low-possibility excuse/reason, when they really just want to be able to sell them to other casters, force people to subscribe for VOD access, all other kinds of garbage
DDoS via a replay? lawlz
Take your tinfoil hat off and read the explanations in this thread. You can parse the character code from replay files. Using the character code and the players name, idiots can then add the players names and spam them messages constantly. Even though players are set to busy, Battle.net saves the messages in order to send them all out once the player leaves the game. However, Battle.net can only save so much information, so when the idiots spam spam spam spam it overloads and flushes out all messages at once, lagging the player out mid-game damaging the integrity of the tournament. Yes this is Blizzard's issue to work with, yes it would be solved with LAN, but no MLG is not at fault and their response to protect the integrity of the tournament is completely valid. Sucks but necessary.
I'm sure if we make a big enough fuss they'll consider releasing them after, but keep in mind that effectively means any accounts they used this event become compromised and they'll need to acquire more for the next event.
ok but this doesnt stop them from setting up some simple regexes (if the script kiddies can parse it they can strip it) and release the "clean" replays after the fact.
On July 30 2011 05:39 NuKedUFirst wrote: Worst idea ever, I mean if you plan on doing this, atleast get more favorable casters imo. Day9 is good but the other 3 are on the other side of the fence. Why not release them AFTER the event with the info stripped or even make a parser to strip the info.
Also my first thought. I think it would not be that difficult to programm a simple parser. R1CH?
Lots of people in this thread have no idea what they're talking about. The explanation MLG gave is perfectly reasonable and understandable. A couple of immature brats are basically ruining the fun for everyone else but that's the price they pay and we will all suffer as a result.
In any case, LAN should've been implemented from the start so none of this would've ever been a problem but whatever.
On July 30 2011 05:41 udgnim wrote: if they release replays to the general public after MLG Anaheim is complete, then I'm completely fine with the decision
the DDOS mentioned in OP refers to people mass whispering players over battle.net. apparently, even if the player sets their status to busy, the whisper is still sent but the player just doesn't see the whisper message.
how would this stop it? people could just find their name/id on like sc2ranks and stuff.
the Koreans were the most often targeted players of this happening. MLG has brand new SC2 accounts specifically for the Koreans to play on, and they basically used up their limit at MLG Columbus because of the amount of spam whispering the Koreans were getting.
this makes me really sad, and it has to be the MLG DRG is at . Its one of the few times I could download replays off of zergs like Idra and watch how he did what he did:/.
I having a feeling(like some others) that this is more about some teams and players requesting to not have their replays released and instead of MLG saying "We will not be including the Korean players' replays in the pack" they've just come up with this DDoS excuse regarding the replays. Scrubbing can be done with an automated program, shouldn't take very long at all.
On July 30 2011 05:41 udgnim wrote: if they release replays to the general public after MLG Anaheim is complete, then I'm completely fine with the decision
the DDOS mentioned in OP refers to people mass whispering players over battle.net. apparently, even if the player sets their status to busy, the whisper is still sent but the player just doesn't see the whisper message.
how would this stop it? people could just find their name/id on like sc2ranks and stuff.
the Koreans were the most often targeted players of this happening. MLG has brand new bnet accounts specifically for the Koreans to play on, and they basically used up their limit at MLG Columbus because of the amount of spam whispering the Koreans were getting.
This only partly solves the issue, as you can just find a grandmaster that has played against a korean and start the spamfest.
Got dangit. While I understand why they're ding it, this super sucks. Without replays how are we supposed to learn from / copy pro players builds? QQQQQQ
On July 30 2011 05:52 Harrad wrote: I'm kind of disappointed they have to make something to up to conceal the real reason, instead of just being honest to the community.
Are you an expert on everything? Why the hell is TL filled with so many tinfoil hats these days?
BTW this whispering/Bnet problem is NOT a hypothetical situation. It happened in MLG Columbus and games on the main stage were affected. I don't exactly remember which one, I think Losira was in one of them.
So again, blame Blizzard. MLG is doing this to keep their show running.
Well this certainly downgraded my opinion of MLG. Nothing like feeling like an inferior member of the community by not being able to study these replays when garbage casters like Husky and TotalBiscuit are going to have access to them.
Watching a game with those retards screaming on youtube is not the same as studying a replay.
Besides which, has there been any inclination to believe that anybody is actually using the information in these replays to DDoS people? Honestly, if somebody with the capability to DDoS is out to get pro gamers, they could easily find replays of ANY player from another source anyway, not to mention the other avenues of information gathering that are outside of the realm of Starcraft.
So honestly this just makes no sense and it shows a real lack of thought on the part of MLG.
On July 30 2011 05:55 Warcloud wrote: Well this certainly downgraded my opinion of MLG. Nothing like feeling like an inferior member of the community by not being able to study these replays when garbage casters like Husky and TotalBiscuit are going to have access to them.
Watching a game with those retards screaming on youtube is not the same as studying a replay.
Besides which, has there been any inclination to believe that anybody is actually using the information in these replays to DDoS people? Honestly, if somebody with the capability to DDoS is out to get pro gamers, they could easily find replays of ANY player from another source anyway, not to mention the other avenues of information gathering that are outside of the realm of Starcraft.
So honestly this just makes no sense and it shows a real lack of thought on the part of MLG.
So your opinion on MLG is downgraded because the vod's are coming after the event and not during it? Lack of thought? I'm pretty sure they are THINKING they don't want to get fucked by DDoS again. My Lord.
this type of thing really bothers me. Though hearing MLG's reasoning behind this decision makes perfect sense.
In the past I would watch virtually all the games with a zerg in it. It was a tremendous learning experience for me. And while they're sending out the replays after the event to casters, a player can learn worlds more when they can utilize a replay themselves.
I dont undestand why people do such juevenille shit sometimes. You think you're cool because you know your way around a computer. To all you hackers, grow the fuck up.
On July 30 2011 05:52 Harrad wrote: I'm kind of disappointed they have to make something to up to conceal the real reason, instead of just being honest to the community.
Are you an expert on everything? Why the hell is TL filled with so many tinfoil hats these days?
Why the hell is TL filled with so many arrogant shitheads these days? If you got nothing else to say just stfu or PM me if you need to vent upon reading my comment that badly.
Considering what happen at the last MLG, i can understand if they release the replay like a week later. I am sad that they will not release the replays at all . Do they have limit on the number of accounts they get from Blizzard for a tournament?
i cant understand why not AFTER the event (1-2 weeks) ,,, i mean to be realistic there are replays froM EVERY PLAYER in that tournament out HUNDRETS so this few very epic ones would not change anything .... very very bad !!!! always watched all reps
ps: yaeh still absolute no idea why they cant realise replay pack after (as i mention there are hundrets reps of this players out there)
Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
Seems lazy by MLG - surely they have somebody on staff who's tech savvy enough to write an automated utility that batch-processes the replays after the fact and scrubs sensitive data. I guess it doesn't seem worth the effort to them? I'm disappointed, MLG is the only place that historically has offered such a wealth of professional replays to download.
I do find myself wondering if this is an excuse to avoid admitting that it's really pressure from Korean proteams who do not want their replays studied.
On July 30 2011 05:17 AlBundy wrote: Good news! Personally I'm against releasing Progamers' replays so good news.
lol
I don't like this, but they have a good reason if it's to protect their event and the players from DDOS. If it was just because of progamers whining about their replays being released because of their super secret builds, I would hate this.
Guys, the character code doesn't magically change after the event. People would keep the info and just use it at the next event. MLG obviously doesn't want to keep buying new accounts for every event after...
On July 30 2011 05:15 cronican wrote: Well what can you do? Getting DDOS'd is worst case scenario for MLG. This is an unfortunate step they must take in order to ensure a smooth event.
This just reinforces that DDOS is awful and something must be done to stop it.
true, interesting that such data is required for a replay though.
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
If you upload a replay to this site http://replayfu.com/ it then makes a page that in fact has the character codes of the players.
It would seem like a very easy step.
Regardless, just release the replays after the event to everyone, WHY NOT?
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say too. Vanick and I have looked into the structure of the replay files and the only thing we could pull out of it was the Battle.net ID like you said, and the character name. I didn't see the character code contained anywhere, but maybe we just didn't know where to find it? It seems pretty obvious to me that you wouldn't want to contain the character code in the replay anyway for privacy purposes, so I think it's unlikely that they would do that.
How many great games will be played (=lost) in the open bracket ? So many rounds, so many good players... that doesn't make any sense to not release them 1 or more weeks later.
On July 30 2011 06:05 MyNameIsAlex wrote: How can you DDoS someone from information in replays? This is totally nonsense.
MLG get serious.
As R1CH just said, it has nothing to do with DDoS. It's chat-spamming.
That said, why there is no "White List" feature, I don't know. I remember a game where you could either ignore players by Name, or White List players by name - and players WhiteListed were the only ones ABLE to message you, while everyone else is blocked. Hell, make it possible for an option like "only allow my friend list to message me".
Next you'll be telling me: "we want to protect the player's build orders!" That's the classic excuse. It's convinced the community pretty well, not sure why you switch from it
(when in reality I can copy the BO 100% from the the production bar and the supply counter).
MLG wants to protect its content and control who gets to see what.
Pretty obvious the Korean teams are pressuring foreign tournaments to disallow replay packs being available. Pretty shitty, I was looking forward to seeing these games as I'll be out of town.
On July 30 2011 06:09 err wrote: Pretty obvious the Korean teams are pressuring foreign tournaments to disallow replay packs being available. Pretty shitty, I was looking forward to seeing these games as I'll be out of town.
Then we should play hardball with them and not invite Koreans to our events.
On July 30 2011 05:41 udgnim wrote: if they release replays to the general public after MLG Anaheim is complete, then I'm completely fine with the decision
the DDOS mentioned in OP refers to people mass whispering players over battle.net. apparently, even if the player sets their status to busy, the whisper is still sent but the player just doesn't see the whisper message.
Even so that is not a DDOS, that is just a bad client. Making it sound like it is an actual DDOS attack so they can get sympathy is dishonest and misleading. They are just trying to buy sympathy from idiots.
Also all these players names are readily available, is there really a way to get someone's character code from a replay? If there is that is crazy, and if there isn't then MLG is stupid.
i dont get this, seriously, why not release this replays at least after the event Finnish? just because there are a couple of koreans? the same happend to TLopen after Pro korean started to play in it the stop releasing Ro4 and Finals replays.
On July 30 2011 06:04 vaderseven wrote: If you upload a replay to this site http://replayfu.com/ it then makes a page that in fact has the character codes of the players.
It would seem like a very easy step.
Regardless, just release the replays after the event to everyone, WHY NOT?
It wasn't able to find my character code. It seems this only works on old accounts where the character code info was scraped from battle.net and stored before bnet stopped showing it.
I wish someone like Dakota_Fanning, who I'm sure knows the replay format inside and out, would comment on this. Because on the face of it, this excuse sounds absurd.
Also, they say they don't have time strip the info out for instant release, but then they also say they are not going to release them at all. Obviously the DDOS stuff has absolutely nothing to do with that decision.
On July 30 2011 06:04 vaderseven wrote: If you upload a replay to this site http://replayfu.com/ it then makes a page that in fact has the character codes of the players.
It would seem like a very easy step.
Regardless, just release the replays after the event to everyone, WHY NOT?
It wasn't able to find my character code. It seems this only works on old accounts where the character code info was scraped from battle.net and stored before bnet stopped showing it.
So if you can't get character codes from replays anymore, what exactly is the problem? Does MLG not know this or?
well, so no mlg for me anymore, the time difference will not allow me to watch it and lets be honest here, if the 2 streams have as much downtime as last mlg more than half of the good games will never be seen... huge dickmove by mlg
On July 30 2011 06:11 Zergoaster wrote: I wish someone like Dakota_Fanning, who I'm sure knows the replay format inside and out, would comment on this. Because on the face of it, this excuse sounds absurd.
Also, they say they don't have time strip the info out for instant release, but then they also say they are not going to release them at all. Obviously the DDOS stuff has absolutely nothing to do with that decision.
Yes that part is puzzling:
I can't have the floor cleaned by tomorrow, so I'm not going to clean your floor at all!
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
If you upload a replay to this site http://replayfu.com/ it then makes a page that in fact has the character codes of the players.
It would seem like a very easy step.
Regardless, just release the replays after the event to everyone, WHY NOT?
No it doesn't, I just checked. Please don't spread misinformation. It seems to me like R1CH is completely right in this matter. The korean teams won't accept having 30+ of e.g. Alicia or GanZi released if they make it deep. It's a huge deal for korean teams.
Its a good thing they announced this now because if they had announced this a week ago it would have seriously hurt their sales for passes to watch the stream and these membership deals.
I'm sure I am not the only one (cough mlg cough) that would come to that conclusion.
AGAIN, everything else aside, I could care less about them holding the replays for a week and then releasing them but the text of that announcement makes it sound like they want to sell them to casters after the event and treat the NA pro replays as a commodity that only a select few are even allowed to purchase.
On July 30 2011 05:36 leova wrote: wow, this is a pretty pathetic excuse for not releasing replays - sounds like a bogus, low-possibility excuse/reason, when they really just want to be able to sell them to other casters, force people to subscribe for VOD access, all other kinds of garbage
DDoS via a replay? lawlz
i think this is the reason too
force people to subscribe for VOD access, all other kinds of garbage
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
If you upload a replay to this site http://replayfu.com/ it then makes a page that in fact has the character codes of the players.
It would seem like a very easy step.
Regardless, just release the replays after the event to everyone, WHY NOT?
No it doesn't, I just checked. Please don't spread misinformation. It seems to me like R1CH is completely right in this matter. The korean teams won't accept having 30+ of e.g. Alicia or GanZi released if they make it deep. It's a huge deal for korean teams.
Click that link and see player names and character codes.
edit
just to make sure i did one of my current ladder games http://replayfu.com/r/WKLPp you can clearly see this information is easy to find as that replay site displays it INSTANTLY after upload.
I'm pretty sure IEM has all their replays public, why not MLG ? I always enjoyed being able to dissect builds that caught my eye. Vods are usually not enough and I watch streams at lower quality, so ...
On July 30 2011 06:09 err wrote: Pretty obvious the Korean teams are pressuring foreign tournaments to disallow replay packs being available. Pretty shitty, I was looking forward to seeing these games as I'll be out of town.
Yeah, it sounds like this might be the real reason for their decision.
I am hugely disappointed, as the thing I look forward most to MLG are the replays. I quite dislike watching vods, but i am hopeful that this particular problem may be remedied by next MLG.
This is incredibly frustrating and stupid bad move MLG. where else can you get a good mess of replays. Private information also definitely isnt stored in a replay the would be a privacy violation and illegal for blizzard to do. You Cannot DDOS someone from getting their replays
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
If you upload a replay to this site http://replayfu.com/ it then makes a page that in fact has the character codes of the players.
It would seem like a very easy step.
Regardless, just release the replays after the event to everyone, WHY NOT?
No it doesn't, I just checked. Please don't spread misinformation. It seems to me like R1CH is completely right in this matter. The korean teams won't accept having 30+ of e.g. Alicia or GanZi released if they make it deep. It's a huge deal for korean teams.
Click that link and see player names and character codes.
The data isn't in the new replays, this is for old replays or profiles where they were able to get the character codes from www.battle.net / sc2ranks.com
I was one of the first ones to scrape the cr~p out of sc2ranks when they still had _all_ the character codes.
EDIT:
I think it's getting painfully obvious that MLG is bullshitting us with the information they have released Oh well, if they don't want to release the reps, there's nothing we can do. Just kinda disappointed with how MLG handles this stuff (another example being the removing of 2GD from the livecast of a recent Quake event because of _one_ criticizing comment)
Think its a shame, but it was properly needed, I did not really use the feature anyway, but I much prefer lag-free matches on stage, compared to so open-bracket games from a replay.
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
If you upload a replay to this site http://replayfu.com/ it then makes a page that in fact has the character codes of the players.
It would seem like a very easy step.
Regardless, just release the replays after the event to everyone, WHY NOT?
No it doesn't, I just checked. Please don't spread misinformation. It seems to me like R1CH is completely right in this matter. The korean teams won't accept having 30+ of e.g. Alicia or GanZi released if they make it deep. It's a huge deal for korean teams.
Click that link and see player names and character codes.
The data isn't in the new replays, this is for old replays or profiles where they were able to get the character codes from www.battle.net / sc2ranks.com
I was one of the first ones to scrape the cr~p out of sc2ranks when they still had _all_ the character codes.
On July 30 2011 06:19 bwally wrote: Absolutely retarded, there are already replays of every player available, that reason doesn't make any sense for not releasing replays.
This needs to be given a huge bit of attention tbh.
I sincerely doubt the Koreans pressuring (if they even did) MLG had anything to do with this decision. If they're incorrect about being able to acquire character information, then it's simply probably a mistake or misinformation on their part.
MLG wouldn't need to lie, especially one that would be discovered, to the community to simply say they'd no longer not be releasing replays.
I remember MLG releasing this big news after MLG Dallas. One of the points was: "In the future, we will releasing the replays almost immediately after the matches have been played." Something like that. It's definitely an excuse for something else.
We will miss so many great games, especially from the open bracket and we wonÄt a chance to ever see them, besides some casts from the chosen casters.
Seems like ESL is the only major tourney organization left that still releases replays. It's a shame since there won't be many replays of serious, refined builds for the public. I was especially interested in the builds of Koreans
Blizzard should implement a correct whisper blocking as soon as possible. That should be no rocket science (takes a coffee break maybe?). The fact that the leak of your character code can lead to you not playing is just absurd. MLG does the right thing, temporarily, after what they witnessed at Columbus. But they could release replays to everyone afterwards and should change their policy back once it is fixed by Blizzard.
Certainly they're not doing this because they don't want unapproved youtube commentary doing their games, and it's not as if the korean teams were pressuring them to stop doing it anwyay, and oh look blizzard can be used as a scapegoat absolving them of any wrongdoing...
On July 30 2011 06:19 bwally wrote: Absolutely retarded, there are already replays of every player available, that reason doesn't make any sense for not releasing replays.
I believe MLG makes new accounts or uses Blizzard's tournament accounts for the later rounds of the brackets in an attempt to avoid these issues.
Wow sounds like a bunch of bull, I don't think what they're saying doesn't possible at all. how in the world would the replays contain data that could be used to DDoS the player? even if it contains the IP, it'd contain the MLG IP. (Why in the world would the replay contain the ip anyways) Just sounds like they made it up... Now, it's completely up to them to decide whether or not to release replays, but quite disappointing.. Why not just be honest and say that the Korean progamers didn't want their replays released?
As I don't own starcraft 2 anyways, I'm not affected by this. But nonetheless, I am glad to see that they give replays to selected casters so I can watch it. :-)
just tweet @MLGsundance, he probably stares at his twitter the entire tourny looking at what people think of it. Last time it got him to do some stuff.
e realize that a large number of matches are played offstream at Pro Circuit Competitions. After MLG Anaheim, we will be sending replay packs out to selected groups of casters, so that these never-before-seen matches can be commentated and then released for everyone to see. "
This part is the worst, studying a game from a VoD obsed by a caster is the worst possible option..
If they upload the replay to a server, theirs or somebody elses, they might be able to get an ip address. But honestly they should upload them after the tourney I don't see it hurting anybody after it is over.
On July 30 2011 06:19 bwally wrote: Absolutely retarded, there are already replays of every player available, that reason doesn't make any sense for not releasing replays.
I believe MLG makes new accounts or uses Blizzard's tournament accounts for the later rounds of the brackets in an attempt to avoid these issues.
Since when? Columbus didn't use any standard account for all players. Unless they created new accounts with the same username but then a different character code was created as well? This does happen because you have multiple EGIdrA etc but they're unique because of username+char code pairing.
This still doesn't excuse them from releasing the pack after the tournament is OVER and scrubbing any data they deem private.
MLG will no longer be making replays of Tournament matches available to the public. We realize that this has been a popular feature, but unfortunately replay packs contain data which can be used to DDOS the player- and the event. Because of the volume of replays we have to process during an event, we are unable to strip that information out of the files before publication.
We realize that a large number of matches are played offstream at Pro Circuit Competitions. After MLG Anaheim, we will be sending replay packs out to selected groups of casters, so that these never-before-seen matches can be commentated and then released for everyone to see.
So i think its safe to say that the 1st paragraph is most likely a line being fed to us to justify the 2nd paragraph?
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
If you upload a replay to this site http://replayfu.com/ it then makes a page that in fact has the character codes of the players.
It would seem like a very easy step.
Regardless, just release the replays after the event to everyone, WHY NOT?
No it doesn't, I just checked. Please don't spread misinformation. It seems to me like R1CH is completely right in this matter. The korean teams won't accept having 30+ of e.g. Alicia or GanZi released if they make it deep. It's a huge deal for korean teams.
Click that link and see player names and character codes.
edit
just to make sure i did one of my current ladder games http://replayfu.com/r/WKLPp you can clearly see this information is easy to find as that replay site displays it INSTANTLY after upload.
Does the GSL put their replays out? I don't have a problem with the MLG wanting their product to be exclusive to them. Also, I'm sure a lot of pros don't want their replays out there, at least as little as possible. I'm totally fine w/ this, it's there right to do so.
e realize that a large number of matches are played offstream at Pro Circuit Competitions. After MLG Anaheim, we will be sending replay packs out to selected groups of casters, so that these never-before-seen matches can be commentated and then released for everyone to see. "
This part is the worst, studying a game from a VoD obsed by a caster is the worst possible option..
Well, it certainly isn't 'disgusting', is it?
I hope the replays do get released after the tournament, it's always nice to see the new strategies of some of the better players in the tournament, as well as a lot of face rolls in the open bracket.
On July 30 2011 06:22 ballasdontcry wrote: Yeah, this seems incredibly fishy to me. Very doubtful there's enough data encoded in replays to get DDoS'd.
There's already a host load of Korean replay files out there, if this was the excuse that MLG is using, I don't really get it.
They are doing it to avoid the players and casters being harassed during the game. Last time around they burned through 200 fresh blizzard accounts because people were pulling the battle.net information from the replays.
We didn't see a lot of it, but some of the players were being invited to fake games by accounts like "MLGcaster" and MLGadmin. I can't remember who, but Day9 was saying one player joined the wrong game 5 times. It was worst with the Korean players because of the language barrier, because they had no idea they were in the wrong game.
e realize that a large number of matches are played offstream at Pro Circuit Competitions. After MLG Anaheim, we will be sending replay packs out to selected groups of casters, so that these never-before-seen matches can be commentated and then released for everyone to see. "
This part is the worst, studying a game from a VoD obsed by a caster is the worst possible option..
If they can take the time to organize this, why can't they take the time to simply clean the replays, if that is actually in fact necessary?
Nevermind the comp sci, which I know little about- unless they are saying these replays take a disproportionate amount of labor to clean, what's stopping them from doing that?
It has more to do with watching it live or getting the VODs. Now we have to wait to get the matches that weren't featured, which really sucks. Meh, it is what it is.
Great decision. I think replays are bad. Casted games are fine but replays show to much imo, better for players to have it this way. The reasons listed in the op sounds legit as well
I understand not releasing replays for the event, but I feel their "reasoning" is a load of shit, not releasing the replays isn't gong to stop any of that, hell you can easily pick all that up from just their streams or a million other sources.
That really sucks... I loved saving all of the replays and going through and learning from them after the event... I understand why MLG wouldn't want to release the replays during the event, but I would really like if they did once it is all over and they have the chance to remove the information from the files. I don't know if this is possible, but I know many people would really appreciate it. It really sucks that a few bad people have to ruin good things for the community =(
The sc2gears guys can dissassemble the replay files, can't they? I thought they could even add chat messages into the replay files. If you can do that, you can certainly also edit out/replace any privacy-invading information that is accidentally in the replay files.
But if I were MLG and I didn't have a solution in hand right now that had been thoroughly battle-tested before the weekend, I wouldn't release any replays either. If somebody comes up with a script, they'll need time to test and verify it. Hopefully somebody will and they can release the replays later on.
This is a Blizz problem. If they won't release a LAN version, they could at least enable some sort of tournament mode (or a whitelist option, as suggested above) so idiots can't interfere with playing during a tournament.
On July 30 2011 06:31 Miefer wrote: better having non lagging games live than having laggs just so the people can copy bos
Ok this keeps getting said once or twice a page so let me just state this opinion doesn't take into account the simple solution of releasing replays 1-3 weeks after the event.
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
On July 30 2011 06:27 Dexerion wrote: Does the GSL put their replays out? I don't have a problem with the MLG wanting their product to be exclusive to them. Also, I'm sure a lot of pros don't want their replays out there, at least as little as possible. I'm totally fine w/ this, it's there right to do so.
u probably should be reminded that GSL is casting _every_ game.......that might be a slight difference to what mlg does (casting some games) and when they suck at it like they did the previous mlg they ve stream a / b cast the same game......seriously its just bad
NOOOOOOOOOOO! Freaking A man, I've been so pumped all week for these reps as something to get me back in to the game. The reps are also great for keeping interest in the event as I don't want to watch casters/vods for every match .
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
Great insight from RICH. Still, one can hope that they'll eventually release the replays.
Dang I'm not watching Anaheim anything now, only reason for me to is for educational purposes. The lack of good SC2 casters sorta prevents that from happening with most VODs from major events.
MLG must think their viewing public is incredibly stupid to buy this sort of reason for not releasing replays after the event. Then again from some of the comments on here of people buying it hook line and sinker...maybe they aren't too far off.
Bummer. The Script Kiddies have won the battle, but they will not win the war! Especially given that so few games actually make it onto the live stream, this seems like tons of great games will just go to waste.
Scrubbing the replays for player names (that's the only thing that's a problem, right?) has to be just trivial to automate; I feel like I should teach myself how to use the replay parsers and do it myself...
Because of the volume of replays we have to process during an event, we are unable to strip that information out of the files before publication.
So this means that EVEN IF there is a problem with ddos or whatever, what some people deny, they can fix it, it is no reason to not release them at all. I hate all these audacious lies in every second statement, do all these esport companies consider us idiots?
This explanation doesn't make any sense and is implausibe as many of the replays are already released after the tournament.
Releasing replays was one major difference between MLG and other tournaments. You had the chance to get your hands on replays of players who normally do not release them.
I'm pretty sure that the actual reason is the cooperation with GSL and Korean players who are normally very reluctant to release replays.
Sad decision, a bad development and a filthy move......
Hmm i would rather conclude, that the Korean Teams are pressuring MLG into not releasing replays. Look at the GSL, there are no replays release, EVER. Maybe this will now start to become standard in the west also T_T
I'm really disappointed about this I thought they would just release them after the event. Really sad since studying the columbus replays was really beneficial for my own improvement.
is it possible this has more to do with fear of the IP of the whole MLG event itself getting DDoS'd, rather than individual accounts? if so, they should just only release the replays after the whole event is over.
>We realize that this has been a popular feature, but unfortunately replay packs contain data which can be used to DDOS the player- and the event.
I can only think of the identifier ... I can't fathom a way with which they could DDOS the players with that? Maybe they picked the wrong term, if they don't want to straight up release the replays during the tournament that's completely fine. But this:
>Because of the volume of replays we have to process during an event, we are unable to strip that information out of the files before publication.
I just cannot believe. Stuff like this can be solved programmatically. If this is seriously only the character code (and what else is it gonna be) then even a programming novice could manage to strip that data from the replays. I don't buy the explanation that the whole of MLG doesn't field a single programmer that is capable of doing so.
I think they received complaints from teams & players saying that they don't want their replays released and they are coming up with a weird explanation like above. This is my theory .. I'd gladly be proven wrong.
I completely agree with this message. This sounds to me like a really lame excuse to not release replays, because as mentioned, all MLG had to do was either to remove the character code from the replays programatically (which takes no time at all), or simpler still to just release all the replays after the event was over.
It makes me sad they feel the need to lie to the community.
I was never a fan of releasing the replays anyways. I'm sure many pros wouldn't want others to have them and participation at MLG shouldn't mean potential opponents in the future will be able to analyze your play style.
I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
Totally not cool. It was always fun to sit down the following week and just work through replays of people you liked. Such a great resource getting removed for such a flimsy reason. I am inclined to think it is pressure from Korean teams. I hope that's not really the reason.
On July 30 2011 06:53 postlapsaria wrote: I don't see why this is that big of a deal. It seems to me that people are way overreacting.
Some people have been basing a lot of their play off of MLG replays since the game came out. Some people would download the pack and watch some replays 10+ times.
I think its EXPECTED to see a reaction when a good number of people are used to pouring over this source of material every few months in order to better themselves in their hobby.
On July 30 2011 06:53 postlapsaria wrote: I don't see why this is that big of a deal. It seems to me that people are way overreacting.
Overreacting? On the internet?
IMPOSSIBLE!
This is the greatest injustice the SC2 world has known. Hell, even as an individual this is the biggest insult and disappointment of my life. Clearly. Totally. 100% Period.
On July 30 2011 05:28 xBillehx wrote: Sucks but the reason many of the games last event had lag/pauses/delays was because idiots were spamming them ingame after parsing the information out of the replay files. Last time Losira and MMA got screwed with mid-game, I'd rather it not happen this time.
Edit: To explain it further, when you put Busy mode on, Battle.net still saves all messages sent to you. At a certain point there's way too much information for battle.net to save so it flushes it all out to the player at once lagging them out big time.
This would be solved if Blizzard enabled a LAN feature, right?
Practically all existing tournament problems would be solved by LAN.
Bnet 2.0 is gonna be so good you won't even need LAN!
MLG TWITTER "RE: Replay release. Chat spam lags the game. Multiple other issues with releasing them during the event. See Columbus VoDs if you don't rem."
Seems like a ridiculous excuse to me, I have gone through SC2gears thoroughly and see no privacy of the player being shown in any form. MLG clearly know more than we do it .__.)
People can parse out so much in a replay. You can even get the result of a "hidden game" by just being on battle.net. They said this a lot after columbus I'm really suprised people are shocked by this.
But still MLG is Ruining ESPORTS with this so hard.
Typical corporate BS. The stuff they say about replay files is simply untrue. Like Rich mentioned it's probably due to pressure from koreans or other pro players who don't want their exact builds being released to the public.
On July 30 2011 06:56 Blackrobe wrote: "RE: Replay release. Chat spam lags the game. Multiple other issues with releasing them during the event. See Columbus VoDs if you don't rem."
ughhhh horrible news. seems lazy to me. I really like the replays from these events. Watching the replays is actually more fun in alot of ways than actually watching the casts.
MLG TWITTER "RE: Replay release. Chat spam lags the game. Multiple other issues with releasing them during the event. See Columbus VoDs if you don't rem."
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
Edit: I personally agree with grackodile, two posts below me.
On July 30 2011 06:56 Blackrobe wrote: "RE: Replay release. Chat spam lags the game. Multiple other issues with releasing them during the event. See Columbus VoDs if you don't rem."
One of the reasons why starcraft matches for MLG never finishes on time is because so many people send chat messages to the players, which when set to busy, means it causes massive amounts of lag. The Losira MMA match was one prime example.
It sucks, but I rather see matches rather than casters talking about random shit for half an hour, while the players are getting new accounts.
Wait so are they just not releasing them this weekend or are they not ever going to release them? If it's just a delayed thing it's not really that big of a deal but if they aren't going to release any of the replays I'm going to be pretty bummed.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
EDIT: Rofl, just read the rest of your post. It's obvious you were being sarcastic, my bad. Haha, well played. Or... POE's Law? Guess I'll never know.
MLG should either:
A) Release evidence proving that their reason is valid -or- B) Release a better, more honest reason.
That said, the part of your post I highlighted is straight up retarded. I think you said it without thinking because you were mad, so maybe that's why. You can't possibly be so selfish as to call the replays more important than "all that other crap" they are doing. They're hosting the most diverse high-level tournament ever for SC2 - or at least one of them. They're making it happen. You are pathetic if you think giving out replays is more valuable than ALL THAT.
So, you'd prefer just to have a fat replay pack of high level play - without any live tournament, casting, player interaction, etc - released to you? You are so selfish it is disgusting.
im so sad now ((. i loved watching all the reps from mlg. i dont have the internet capacity to watch streams, and vods take forever to load, so this was the only way i could watch all the games i wanted to. :'(
No they are not. Blame the ass-hats who spammed them while they are trying to run a tournament, rather than MLG.
the ass-hats who spam them still have the ability to spam them this time....announcing that replays wont' be released will not stop that
the only thing that makes sense in their explanation is that uploading all the replays helps create lag problems....solution? release some time after event
On July 30 2011 07:01 FrankWalls wrote: im so sad now ((. i loved watching all the reps from mlg. i dont have the internet capacity to watch streams, and vods take forever to load, so this was the only way i could watch all the games i wanted to. :'(
Aww man, I feel sorry for you after reading that, I hope they release them for your sake only.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
MLG should either:
A) Release evidence proving that their reason is valid -or- B) Release a better, more honest reason.
That said, the part of your post I highlighted is straight up retarded. I think you said it without thinking because you were mad, so maybe that's why. You can't possibly be so selfish as to call the replays more important than "all that other crap" they are doing. They're hosting the most diverse high-level tournament ever for SC2 - or at least one of them. They're making it happen. You are pathetic if you think giving out replays is more valuable than ALL THAT.
So, you'd prefer just to have a fat replay pack of high level play - without any live tournament, casting, player interaction, etc - released to you? You are so selfish it is disgusting.
I think that guy's trolling you ~_~
Seriously though, I want replays The times are horrible for EU so I'll miss most of tonight's matches, and now I can't view them at all :|
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
Really sucks that a pack won't be released after the event is over. Pretty sure nobody really cares if select replays get sent off to specific casters. What people want are the games themselves to look at.
Even today i was looking forward to the replays after the event (even before it started) just to get a better glimpse of the awesomness of Boxer, MMA and MVP.....
And now i wont be able to....
GODDAMNIT
ps. i understand they might not want to release them during the event, but i dont see any reason why they can not release them well after the event.
On July 30 2011 07:05 constantqt wrote: its no problem just release replays after event then ok??
my thought, basically. what is the reason for not releasing them AT ALL ? mlg always was my biggest source of inspiration to train builds that are "hot" right now.. really sad right now.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
On July 30 2011 07:06 Mithriel wrote: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Even today i was looking forward to the replays after the event (even before it started) just to get a better glimpse of the awesomness of Boxer, MMA and MVP.....
And now i wont be able to....
GODDAMNIT
ps. i understand they might not want to release them during the event, but i dont see any reason why they can not release them well after the event.
indeed, most of the open bracket games will be unseen. It`s just ridiculous.
Why does everyone feel entitled to copy people's build orders (which they probably put a lot of work into) and get these replays. Get over it there are going to be no replays. It seems this community has started to overreact for any little change. Sure it makes for interesting drama to read, but overall it just deteriorates the community and people's opinion of said community, I mean just look at how everyone perceives the DOTA community.
MLG wants you to watch the stream like GSL does. And I'm sure because of korean presence in MLG, some pro houses and GOM have had their say in this policy, because they don't want korean replays to be available to thousands of players. This should be as evident as the cycle of night and day.
Ok, I just now read R1CH's post and he is basically saying the same thing. I feel dumb for typing all of this out. Serves me right for not reading the entire op though.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
Releasing the replays after the event shouldn't be any harder than doing it during it. In fact, it could be even easier, since you have a lot of things going on in the middle of the tournament. People are doing this because they don't understand their reasoning. If they gave a reason that wasn't full of holes, even if it wasn't one everyone liked, you could accept that. But this right now looks like removing a important part of the event for no valid reason at all.
It's not that we're missing the option to copy build orders, we're missing the option to see good games in that won't be casted, such as all the good players/games in the open bracket. MLG set itself apart from the Korean scene by allowing games that aren't in the spotlight to be casted/watched by ordinary people.
On July 30 2011 07:12 Bandino wrote: Why does everyone feel entitled to copy people's build orders (which they probably put a lot of work into) and get these replays. Get over it there are going to be no replays. It seems this community has started to overreact for any little change. Sure it makes for interesting drama to read, but overall it just deteriorates the community and people's opinion of said community, I mean just look at how everyone perceives the DOTA community.
There is an overreaction because their reason behind it is fucking stupid, it makes no sense at all. Maybe to protect the Korean guys build orders yes, but the DDoS thing seems so unrealistic. Everything can be worked around.
On July 30 2011 07:12 Bandino wrote: Why does everyone feel entitled to copy people's build orders (which they probably put a lot of work into) and get these replays. Get over it there are going to be no replays. It seems this community has started to overreact for any little change. Sure it makes for interesting drama to read, but overall it just deteriorates the community and people's opinion of said community, I mean just look at how everyone perceives the DOTA community.
They perceive the DOTA community that way because any time you join a game while trying/learning something new, people try to ban you.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
"How dare you take away the thing that was free before!!!! I demand a valid reason why you are taking away the thing that I got for free before. I will decide if the reason is valid, not you!!! If I don't like the reason, I will call you a liar and demand a reason I will accept! What, your taking it away because you don't want to deal with the issues it created and had a negative affect on your product people are paying for??? That's BS!!!! I demand you provide me with a better reason now!!!! Or I will continue to post in this thread about how angry I am!"
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
Obviously not. It doesn't mean that they can't release them after the event.
Even if that's a task MLG doesn't want to do after the fact, I imagine there would be a number of volunteers from TL to remove the sensitive information from these replays so that they can be released to the public after the fact. I lack the technical ability to do so, but I'm sure that people of R1CH's caliber would volunteer to do so.
The TL community at its best is pretty damn competent. Transparent 'satire' doesn't change that.
Okay so this still doesn't sidestep the "chat spam" issue. That's not going away just because they're not releasing replays. We've already discussed the whole "you can't get character codes from replays" thing (and the ones where you could do this via replayfu, they're not actually derived from replays IIRC, they're derived from back when the Battle.net Web profiles displayed the character codes, and that information can be referenced later).
What probably happened before and will no doubt happen again is that the character name will be displayed on the stream, and people (I'm pretty sure who) will just guess 1000 character codes until they get the right one, then it gets posted, then mass spamming occurs again. This is a fundamental Battle.net issue regarding how chat during Busy status is handled and not a replay issue.
I was unaware this issue would apparently make everyone go from looking forward to this MLG like never before to hating MLG deeply. The internet is such a fickle place.
But on topic, I can understand. Maybe they are pulling our leg, but I think they may just be playing it safe. Imagine if they said they WERE going to release them later, then couldn't... This thread would pale in comparison in terms of rage. If they say they NEVER will, and then it turns out they decide to (or are allowed to) release them, then everyone thinks that much more of them, and everyone gets what they want. It's for safety. They aren't doing this because they are big corporate jerks. And they can't charge for them, because, for one, the reason they just gave would clearly be a lie. So in the future either A., we will never get them, B. we will get them for free, but a couple weeks later, or C., certain replays will be released if the pros/blizz/whoever else allows them.
The good Sundance giveth and the good Sundance taketh away.
At least we were able to get the replays for previous events. I am disappointed at this news and regardless of the reasons they give it was a valuable resource to a lot of players and casters.
This was one of the unique features with MLG. It's a very big deal for the Korean teams to release any replays at all. With that said this would have been a perfect opportunity to obtain an actual tournament practised build.
Hopefully they review this as it was a big thing the community was looking forward to.
Kinda makes me regret getting gold membership. I know replays were free at colombus, however I liked colombus with everything. That's how events should be and made me purchase an mlg ticket again since Dallas. Only to notice mlg is taking away a big part of the experience(so many bracket matches will go unwatched) .
Also because vod system wasn't great I would watch whatever match I missed by replay.....
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
Stop being a hipster it's annoying. Plenty of informed people have posted in this thread saying how MLG's reasoning makes no sense. If you want to continue to be ignorant and be such a cool hipster than be my guest, just don't bold stuff it's even more annoying
After MLG Anaheim, we will be sending replay packs out to selected groups of casters, so that these never-before-seen matches can be commentated and then released for everyone to see.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
"How dare you take away the thing that was free before!!!! I demand a valid reason why you are taking away the thing that I got for free before. I will decide if the reason is valid, not you!!! If I don't like the reason, I will call you a liar and demand a reason I will accept! What, your taking it away because you don't want to deal with the issues it created and had a negative affect on your product people are paying for??? That's BS!!!! I demand you provide me with a better reason now!!!! Or I will continue to post in this thread about how angry I am!"
No, they said they would release the replays for particular casters to cast, not to the public. A lot of people prefer looking the replays themselfs than needing to watch the youtube video of a caster they may not like.
And your "irony" is starting to get annoying, specially since basically all your posts had wrong info in them.
On July 30 2011 07:16 Excalibur_Z wrote: Okay so this still doesn't sidestep the "chat spam" issue. That's not going away just because they're not releasing replays. We've already discussed the whole "you can't get character codes from replays" thing (and the ones where you could do this via replayfu, they're not actually derived from replays IIRC, they're derived from back when the Battle.net Web profiles displayed the character codes, and that information can be referenced later).
What probably happened before and will no doubt happen again is that the character name will be displayed on the stream, and people (I'm pretty sure who) will just guess 1000 character codes until they get the right one, then it gets posted, then mass spamming occurs again. This is a fundamental Battle.net issue regarding how chat during Busy status is handled and not a replay issue.
Another note, if you're watching either of the 2 'featured' games (the ones that aren't on the mainstage but have Plasma screens above the players' heads), there are times in between games when they send the RealID numbers to other players and it's visible on the screen. Obviously a dick move, but still possible.
Your idea also works and is more plausible. In summary, you're right, there's not a ton that can be done about the chat spam.
This is actually really sad. I mean Blizzard gain from the advancement of eSports more so with Starcraft 2 but yet they wont include a simple DND mode. How hard is it to do that?
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
"How dare you take away the thing that was free before!!!! I demand a valid reason why you are taking away the thing that I got for free before. I will decide if the reason is valid, not you!!! If I don't like the reason, I will call you a liar and demand a reason I will accept! What, your taking it away because you don't want to deal with the issues it created and had a negative affect on your product people are paying for??? That's BS!!!! I demand you provide me with a better reason now!!!! Or I will continue to post in this thread about how angry I am!"
Can you at least read the OP before spouting bullshit please?
They will not be releasing replays to the public, at all. Only a few select casters will be granted access to them.
MLG will no longer be making replays of Tournament matches available to the public.
and
After MLG Anaheim, we will be sending replay packs out to selected groups of casters
No replays will go out to the general public, just "selected casters".
As for the rest of your post, grow up. MLG is a business, putting on an event for which they make money in advertising and subscriptions. Customer feedback is entirely legitimate.
On July 30 2011 07:12 Bandino wrote: Why does everyone feel entitled to copy people's build orders (which they probably put a lot of work into) and get these replays. Get over it there are going to be no replays. It seems this community has started to overreact for any little change. Sure it makes for interesting drama to read, but overall it just deteriorates the community and people's opinion of said community, I mean just look at how everyone perceives the DOTA community.
There is an overreaction because their reason behind it is fucking stupid, it makes no sense at all. Maybe to protect the Korean guys build orders yes, but the DDoS thing seems so unrealistic. Everything can be worked around..
And if they came out and told the truth that they couldn't give out replays because they didn't want people copying build orders i bet you there still would be a bunch of folk on TL who would feel that they are entitled to those build orders. Overall I guess it's just how the internet works. Complain about everything.
I'd be able to swallow this better if they just came out and admit that Korean teams don't like releasing replays and it's part of the deal for the exchange program; but instead lying about the chat spam and misusing the term DDoS and ignoring alternatives such as releasing them after the event just makes me feel almost cheated for purchasing the HQ pass. Better yet, they might have gotten some guy who never touched SC2 before to write that announcement before even attempting to workaround the "DDoS" during Columbus. I gotta say, I'm getting a bad vibe from all this; between Husky & MrBitter, no HQ on both streams and now this happening.
On July 30 2011 07:10 RndmGdNck wrote: How can they think ppl are buying this? This a computer game community we are smarting then that.
This is awful.
This whole thread is devolving into yet another TL conspiracy witch-hunt.
There is a reason for that. MLG's excuses for not releasing the replays are full of holes, this has been pointed out plenty of times in the thread already.
MLG are at best mistaken and at worst intentionally lying to us.
I'm not going to jump to any conclusions as to which is the case here but either way it's in MLG's best interests to release some clarification asap.
This is a major disappointment and I'm hurt that MLG would choose to lie or be easily misinformed concerning the justification behind it.
I don't know if they realized how people were interfering with the tournament, so I'm not going to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon and immediately believe this was part of the GOM partnership negotiation being delivered with a diversion.
Wow, fuck. One of the best parts of the event cancelled.
They need to provide some solid technical proof, preferably in private to someone like Rich. If there really is a problem with the replay format, it needs to be reported to Blizzard so they can fix it for future events. Either way, from a technical standpoint, it should be easy to parse out or change any identifying information. If they've known about this flaw for a while, then it's entirely their fault for not having software to fix it.
I was considering buying a membership to help them reach the 100k goal, but if they refuse to release replays then that's not going to happen.
You can nab a players Battle.net ID through replay.message.events file which is inside the SC2 Replay MPQ File. However, there are no stored information of the player(s) IP, for that information is not needed for any of the replay files and overall purpose of the replay. Ergo, you can not in any shape or form use a replay file to DDOS attack much less even get an IP address.
Even if you do nab the players B.net number, through other means since the B.net ID on the replay is NOT your Character code, the best you can do is spam the hell out of the said player, who in return, can block you. GG!
If there is anyway to actually get a hold of MLG's staff to tell them how impossible it is to grab a players IP from a replay, that would be great. Highly doubt it however.
Otherwise MLG has a 2nd reason to not give replays, which is more valid IMO; man power. They probably want to spend their manpower resource to other venue's than providing the community with over 1,000 replays from all the games that have been played over the weekend.
On July 30 2011 07:24 Shaxe wrote: I'd be able to swallow this better if they just came out and admit that Korean teams don't like releasing replays and it's part of the deal for the exchange program; but instead lying about the chat spam and misusing the term DDoS and ignoring alternatives such as releasing them after the event just makes me feel almost cheated for purchasing the HQ pass. Better yet, they might have gotten some guy who never touched SC2 before to write that announcement before even attempting to workaround the "DDoS" during Columbus. I gotta say, I'm getting a bad vibe from all this; between Husky & MrBitter, no HQ on both streams and now this happening.
Honestly, I could even accept it if they said they were doing it to increase the value of their VODs service. You could argue wether that is fair or not, but it would at least make sense.
On July 30 2011 07:16 Excalibur_Z wrote: Okay so this still doesn't sidestep the "chat spam" issue. That's not going away just because they're not releasing replays. We've already discussed the whole "you can't get character codes from replays" thing (and the ones where you could do this via replayfu, they're not actually derived from replays IIRC, they're derived from back when the Battle.net Web profiles displayed the character codes, and that information can be referenced later).
What probably happened before and will no doubt happen again is that the character name will be displayed on the stream, and people (I'm pretty sure who) will just guess 1000 character codes until they get the right one, then it gets posted, then mass spamming occurs again. This is a fundamental Battle.net issue regarding how chat during Busy status is handled and not a replay issue.
hopefully some players get spammed and lag again so mlg has to post the replays again LOL?
On July 30 2011 07:12 Bandino wrote: Why does everyone feel entitled to copy people's build orders (which they probably put a lot of work into) and get these replays. Get over it there are going to be no replays. It seems this community has started to overreact for any little change. Sure it makes for interesting drama to read, but overall it just deteriorates the community and people's opinion of said community, I mean just look at how everyone perceives the DOTA community.
There is an overreaction because their reason behind it is fucking stupid, it makes no sense at all. Maybe to protect the Korean guys build orders yes, but the DDoS thing seems so unrealistic. Everything can be worked around..
And if they came out and told the truth that they couldn't give out replays because they didn't want people copying build orders i bet you there still would be a bunch of folk on TL who would feel that they are entitled to those build orders. Overall I guess it's just how the internet works. Complain about everything.
a ton of casters keep the production tab open which makes it very very easy to copy the build orders to a "T." All this does is slow down the process so players looking at the vod cant look at anything they want whenever they want.
Make no mistake about it, if a game gets casted that someone wants to steal the Build from, it will happen. Not releasing replays is not a way around that. in my opinion at least.
On July 30 2011 07:12 Bandino wrote: Why does everyone feel entitled to copy people's build orders (which they probably put a lot of work into) and get these replays. Get over it there are going to be no replays. It seems this community has started to overreact for any little change. Sure it makes for interesting drama to read, but overall it just deteriorates the community and people's opinion of said community, I mean just look at how everyone perceives the DOTA community.
There is an overreaction because their reason behind it is fucking stupid, it makes no sense at all. Maybe to protect the Korean guys build orders yes, but the DDoS thing seems so unrealistic. Everything can be worked around..
And if they came out and told the truth that they couldn't give out replays because they didn't want people copying build orders i bet you there still would be a bunch of folk on TL who would feel that they are entitled to those build orders. Overall I guess it's just how the internet works. Complain about everything.
I'm not really complaining, I know what I am saying will affect nothing, I am just confused as to why such a simple problem can be worked around without creating a drama.
They must have known there would be people frustrated by this.
On July 30 2011 07:12 Bandino wrote: Why does everyone feel entitled to copy people's build orders (which they probably put a lot of work into) and get these replays. Get over it there are going to be no replays. It seems this community has started to overreact for any little change. Sure it makes for interesting drama to read, but overall it just deteriorates the community and people's opinion of said community, I mean just look at how everyone perceives the DOTA community.
There is an overreaction because their reason behind it is fucking stupid, it makes no sense at all. Maybe to protect the Korean guys build orders yes, but the DDoS thing seems so unrealistic. Everything can be worked around..
And if they came out and told the truth that they couldn't give out replays because they didn't want people copying build orders i bet you there still would be a bunch of folk on TL who would feel that they are entitled to those build orders. Overall I guess it's just how the internet works. Complain about everything.
Obviously people would be annoyed at the lack of a service.
There would be people going 'aww so sad but I can see why they did it =(' Much more extreme than that and you would start to get warns, basically. Exaggerating slightly, but the complaints would be more laments than anything directional.
However, this isn't the lack of a service, it's about the lying about the motives on a lack of a service. Like how I wasn't annoyed at EG taking PuMa but WAS annoyed at Alex going after Milkis.
On July 30 2011 07:12 Bandino wrote: Why does everyone feel entitled to copy people's build orders (which they probably put a lot of work into) and get these replays. Get over it there are going to be no replays. It seems this community has started to overreact for any little change. Sure it makes for interesting drama to read, but overall it just deteriorates the community and people's opinion of said community, I mean just look at how everyone perceives the DOTA community.
There is an overreaction because their reason behind it is fucking stupid, it makes no sense at all. Maybe to protect the Korean guys build orders yes, but the DDoS thing seems so unrealistic. Everything can be worked around..
And if they came out and told the truth that they couldn't give out replays because they didn't want people copying build orders i bet you there still would be a bunch of folk on TL who would feel that they are entitled to those build orders. Overall I guess it's just how the internet works. Complain about everything.
It's not about entitlement, it's about VALUE. I get a lot of value out of watching those replays for builds/entertainment/whatever and I would pay MORE than the price of the HD pass to get just the replays. It just sucks to have no way of getting them as it's one of the best things about MLG for a lot of us.
On July 30 2011 07:24 Shaxe wrote: I'd be able to swallow this better if they just came out and admit that Korean teams don't like releasing replays and it's part of the deal for the exchange program; but instead lying about the chat spam and misusing the term DDoS and ignoring alternatives such as releasing them after the event just makes me feel almost cheated for purchasing the HQ pass. Better yet, they might have gotten some guy who never touched SC2 before to write that announcement before even attempting to workaround the "DDoS" during Columbus. I gotta say, I'm getting a bad vibe from all this; between Husky & MrBitter, no HQ on both streams and now this happening.
Honestly, I could even accept it if they said they were doing it to increase the value of their VODs service. You could argue wether that is fair or not, but it would at least make sense.
which would be one of the only legitimate reasons for doing it in my opinion. If that is the case, then it is a shitty way to go about it, but understandable since they are a business.
Koreans not wanting their builds shown (if that is indeed happening), would mean that no replays could be released at all to casters. because nothing is stopping them from casting games with the production tab open showing the entire build order =/
If only there was a way to circumvent battlenet so players and casters don't get random messages, something like a closed network working only locally without stuff coming from outside that network
Then it would be no problem to release replays for MLG.
Great, I was expecting to download a lot of these since the Europe timetable is so terrible that I can't stay up and watch it live anyway. At least with the replays you can go through every match you found interesting, but now we can't. Really sucks.
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
i guess its not the korean team pressure but more like they want to sell vods (if there are free replays why would anyone buy vods?!)
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
i guess its not the korean team pressure but more like they want to sell vods (if there are free replays why would anyone buy vods?!)
because not all games are casted
when you watch MLG throughout the next 3 days, you will not see every game played....you will miss games played by your favorite players and unkown players alike
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
"How dare you take away the thing that was free before!!!! I demand a valid reason why you are taking away the thing that I got for free before. I will decide if the reason is valid, not you!!! If I don't like the reason, I will call you a liar and demand a reason I will accept! What, your taking it away because you don't want to deal with the issues it created and had a negative affect on your product people are paying for??? That's BS!!!! I demand you provide me with a better reason now!!!! Or I will continue to post in this thread about how angry I am!"
No, they said they would release the replays for particular casters to cast, not to the public. A lot of people prefer looking the replays themselfs than needing to watch the youtube video of a caster they may not like.
And your "irony" is starting to get annoying, specially since basically all your posts had wrong info in them.
Well I'm annoyed at entitled esports fans get enraged over every little thing and acting like drama queens. This information was out MONTHS ago. MGL said on SotG(it could have been another show) that they would not be releasing replays any more because of the chat spamming and harassment. And if they don't want to release them at all, that is their choice.
Its a free service and they aren't providing it any more. If you don't like it, don't watch MGL and boycott them. Or don't pay for the HQ stream. Or continue to whine about it in this thread. But don't act like they are some evil, deceptive corporation bent on lying to you and milking you for every penny.
Man, this bums me out - I wanted to try my own hand at amateur casting some replays MLG D: Replay releasing was one of the things that put MLG on its own tier above other tournaments in my heart.
On July 30 2011 06:02 R1CH wrote: Technically this makes no sense. I haven't looked at the replay format in that much detail, but as far as I'm aware the only semi-personal data encoded in a replay is the battle.net ID of the players. This is the number in the URL of your profile if you view it on battle.net or your sc2ranks ID, this is NOT your character code. Unless someone has found a way to convert from battle.net ID to character code, this does nothing to stop people being added and spammed on battle.net since it wasn't possible in the first place other than by brute force guessing.
The best solution to the chat spam / lag problems is to set busy mode and join six chat channels before playing a game to prevent further invites. It seems MLG doesn't want to release replays (perhaps under pressure from Korean teams?) and is using this as an excuse.
i guess its not the korean team pressure but more like they want to sell vods (if there are free replays why would anyone buy vods?!)
Because watching a game being cast live in front of a screaming crowd is a completely different experience to watching a replay.
On July 30 2011 07:24 Shaxe wrote: I'd be able to swallow this better if they just came out and admit that Korean teams don't like releasing replays and it's part of the deal for the exchange program; but instead lying about the chat spam and misusing the term DDoS and ignoring alternatives such as releasing them after the event just makes me feel almost cheated for purchasing the HQ pass. Better yet, they might have gotten some guy who never touched SC2 before to write that announcement before even attempting to workaround the "DDoS" during Columbus. I gotta say, I'm getting a bad vibe from all this; between Husky & MrBitter, no HQ on both streams and now this happening.
These are the posts that bother me most. There's no room in your post for "I don't know all of the information." Instead, it's entirely, "I've come to the conclusion that they are purposefully lying to the community to actively coverup the truth."
Given all that MLG has done to regain trust and appreciation of the community, I doubt they would intentionally lie to the community... especially a lie that can easily be discovered to be false.
While this is purely my interpretation of the situation, I see it as this:
They knew that players getting spammed was a huge annoyance and problem. Whether bad information or a misunderstanding, they believe a replay can be used to determine a player's character code. When releasing the statement, they improperly decided to label it as ddos, when it's simply game lag problems caused by blizzard's awful chat features. To avoid the problems, they weren't going to release replays without cleaning them (if possible). However, why spend the additional man hours to collect, sort, clean, then upload the replays when they can simply choose not to release them.
addition: I'm also fine with no replays. I've always agreed with many of the progamers that replays shouldn't be released. There are a lot of subtleties you might miss from a vod, but from a replay it allows your BO and actions to be deciphered and hours and hours of your time now largely useless.
I still recall casting a bunch of matches from MLG Columbus from the early stages of the event that never got covered by the streams. Heck! i still got replay files of series involving some of the top names there, not covered till this day on a folder.
I also recall the ammount of unstreamed matches that were covered by several "smaller" casting channels (like mine) that allowed to compile such a huge library of VODs covering most of the event.
Now they're gonna be handed to a selected group of casters...i can only wonder how many games are gonna get "lost in translation". But hey! nothing else to do besides respecting the decision i guess. Gonna move on and focus on other events.
Starting here in EU at around 3am or so i can imagine the ammount of content i'll be loosing from the early stages of the tournament. Best of luck for this weekend MLG.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
"How dare you take away the thing that was free before!!!! I demand a valid reason why you are taking away the thing that I got for free before. I will decide if the reason is valid, not you!!! If I don't like the reason, I will call you a liar and demand a reason I will accept! What, your taking it away because you don't want to deal with the issues it created and had a negative affect on your product people are paying for??? That's BS!!!! I demand you provide me with a better reason now!!!! Or I will continue to post in this thread about how angry I am!"
No, they said they would release the replays for particular casters to cast, not to the public. A lot of people prefer looking the replays themselfs than needing to watch the youtube video of a caster they may not like.
And your "irony" is starting to get annoying, specially since basically all your posts had wrong info in them.
Well I'm annoyed at entitled esports fans get enraged over every little thing and acting like drama queens. This information was out MONTHS ago. MGL said on SotG(it could have been another show) that they would not be releasing replays any more because of the chat spamming and harassment. And if they don't want to release them at all, that is their choice.
Its a free service and they aren't providing it any more. If you don't like it, don't watch MGL and boycott them. Or don't pay for the HQ stream. Or continue to whine about it in this thread. But don't act like they are some evil, deceptive corporation bent on lying to you and milking you for every penny.
They said they would no longer be releasing replays during the event, this is the first we have heard of the possibility that we would be deprived of them completely.
And get off your high horse, paying customers have a right to criticise.
It's nothing more than a excuse. South Korea has always forbidden replays from being released of their pro-teams. Now since so many pro-gamers are from Korea to attend to MLG they basically told MLG don't release replays or the koreans won't play.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
"How dare you take away the thing that was free before!!!! I demand a valid reason why you are taking away the thing that I got for free before. I will decide if the reason is valid, not you!!! If I don't like the reason, I will call you a liar and demand a reason I will accept! What, your taking it away because you don't want to deal with the issues it created and had a negative affect on your product people are paying for??? That's BS!!!! I demand you provide me with a better reason now!!!! Or I will continue to post in this thread about how angry I am!"
No, they said they would release the replays for particular casters to cast, not to the public. A lot of people prefer looking the replays themselfs than needing to watch the youtube video of a caster they may not like.
And your "irony" is starting to get annoying, specially since basically all your posts had wrong info in them.
Well I'm annoyed at entitled esports fans get enraged over every little thing and acting like drama queens. This information was out MONTHS ago. MGL said on SotG(it could have been another show) that they would not be releasing replays any more because of the chat spamming and harassment. And if they don't want to release them at all, that is their choice.
Its a free service and they aren't providing it any more. If you don't like it, don't watch MGL and boycott them. Or don't pay for the HQ stream. Or continue to whine about it in this thread. But don't act like they are some evil, deceptive corporation bent on lying to you and milking you for every penny.
They said they would no longer be releasing replays during the event, this is the first we have heard of the possibility that we would be deprived of them completely.
And get off your high horse, paying customers have a right to criticise.
who cares if they send the replays to some casters, i think the main reason people want replays is so they can look at the builds and try to take something from it..
hope there are some smart people in charge who can listen to what people are saying and understand that releasing the repalys after the event does nothing but good for them and if they dont it will cause this shitstorm we're having right now.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
"How dare you take away the thing that was free before!!!! I demand a valid reason why you are taking away the thing that I got for free before. I will decide if the reason is valid, not you!!! If I don't like the reason, I will call you a liar and demand a reason I will accept! What, your taking it away because you don't want to deal with the issues it created and had a negative affect on your product people are paying for??? That's BS!!!! I demand you provide me with a better reason now!!!! Or I will continue to post in this thread about how angry I am!"
No, they said they would release the replays for particular casters to cast, not to the public. A lot of people prefer looking the replays themselfs than needing to watch the youtube video of a caster they may not like.
And your "irony" is starting to get annoying, specially since basically all your posts had wrong info in them.
Well I'm annoyed at entitled esports fans get enraged over every little thing and acting like drama queens. This information was out MONTHS ago. MGL said on SotG(it could have been another show) that they would not be releasing replays any more because of the chat spamming and harassment. And if they don't want to release them at all, that is their choice.
Its a free service and they aren't providing it any more. If you don't like it, don't watch MGL and boycott them. Or don't pay for the HQ stream. Or continue to whine about it in this thread. But don't act like they are some evil, deceptive corporation bent on lying to you and milking you for every penny.
They said they would no longer be releasing replays during the event, this is the first we have heard of the possibility that we would be deprived of them completely.
And get off your high horse, paying customers have a right to criticise.
You were paying for the replays?
I would be willing to.
And nice job on completely sidestepping all the cases of people pointing out the many inaccuracies in your posts.
On July 30 2011 06:53 Plansix wrote: I demand instant gratification on everything. I want the VODs, the replays and interviews all released as they happen. Really, I don't know why they don't let us be observers in the games too. First come, first served. And if the casters can't get in because the game is full, too bad. I'm a Team Liquid forum member and part of the community. Everything should be available to me at all times.
Seriously MGL, why don't you have every player go in, set to busy and open 6 chat channels every game. I don't care if you have to log out each players between sets, this is what needs to happen for me to get what I want. Sure, setting up the players takes time and you are focused on keeping the stream going. But that doesn't matter, I want my replays and you should force every pro to do this so I can have what I want.
And this DDoS crap. I have been to some hacking websites on the internet, you may have heard of it. Let me tell you, from the 20 minutes of research I have done and my knowledge from building one PC from parts I ordered off Newegg, that excuse is total crap. You can't DDoS someone from a replay. Sure it gives you their battle.net account information and then you can message them, that's it. There is no possible way in the world that you can DDoS someone once you know their account info and that they are logged into battle.net. So stop giving us this crap and release the replays. We demand it and its way more important that all of the other crap you are doing.
-Setting to busy is standard tournament procedure. Opening six chat channels would take all of ten seconds.
-R1ch (the guy quoted in the OP), from my understanding, is basically the official tech support/ trouble shooter for the teamliquid website. If someone reputable should know about what would and wouldn't allow DDOS attempts, it would be him.
R1ch may be correct about the DDoS thing, but my sarcastic statement above still holds true. People are acting entitled and dumb. MLG has way more important things to worry as live events are hard as hell to run. I'm sure they would love to release replays, but the harassment through battle.net doesn't make it worth it.
How on earth does that prevent them from simply releasing the replays after the event is over? I don't think many people would have a problem with that. It's the fact that we are being deprived of access to replays altogether and possibly under a false pretense that is getting people annoyed.
They said they will release replay packs later. Maybe they will release all of them, who knows? Or maybe they will release none, like the GSL and NASL. Maybe they will make your pay for them if you want them. Maybe they will destroy all the replays and ship you the parts of the burn thumb drives out of spite.
"How dare you take away the thing that was free before!!!! I demand a valid reason why you are taking away the thing that I got for free before. I will decide if the reason is valid, not you!!! If I don't like the reason, I will call you a liar and demand a reason I will accept! What, your taking it away because you don't want to deal with the issues it created and had a negative affect on your product people are paying for??? That's BS!!!! I demand you provide me with a better reason now!!!! Or I will continue to post in this thread about how angry I am!"
No, they said they would release the replays for particular casters to cast, not to the public. A lot of people prefer looking the replays themselfs than needing to watch the youtube video of a caster they may not like.
And your "irony" is starting to get annoying, specially since basically all your posts had wrong info in them.
Well I'm annoyed at entitled esports fans get enraged over every little thing and acting like drama queens. This information was out MONTHS ago. MGL said on SotG(it could have been another show) that they would not be releasing replays any more because of the chat spamming and harassment. And if they don't want to release them at all, that is their choice.
Its a free service and they aren't providing it any more. If you don't like it, don't watch MGL and boycott them. Or don't pay for the HQ stream. Or continue to whine about it in this thread. But don't act like they are some evil, deceptive corporation bent on lying to you and milking you for every penny.
Is is that hard to understand that most people are discussing the reasoning behind their action, specially since it doesn't seem like it will even work, and not dissing the company? Noone here is saying that they are evil, that there is no reason why they should do that. They released a statement that has quite a bit of holes in it and people are disscussing it. I couldn't care less if they did the same thing but gave a better reasoning behind it, like I said before.
If there in anyone overreacting here, it's you, regarding the intention of most of us.
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
EDIT: DDOS is a poor choice of words in our release. Chat spam on the game clients which lags the game is what was meant. EDIT: And yes, I know you can find other ways to get to the same information. But I can't stop those. I can reduce risk on things I can control. Not taking those steps is negligent.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
I still don't see any comments on why you don't want too release them after the event?
On July 30 2011 07:38 Plansix wrote: Well I'm annoyed at entitled esports fans get enraged over every little thing and acting like drama queens. This information was out MONTHS ago. MGL said on SotG(it could have been another show) that they would not be releasing replays any more because of the chat spamming and harassment. And if they don't want to release them at all, that is their choice.
Its a free service and they aren't providing it any more. If you don't like it, don't watch MGL and boycott them. Or don't pay for the HQ stream. Or continue to whine about it in this thread. But don't act like they are some evil, deceptive corporation bent on lying to you and milking you for every penny.
You've been acting like a bigger Drama Queen than anyone else in this thread. The SoTG they mentioned not releasing replays during the event, and that's it to the best of my recollection. No-one's saying it's not their choice. The only accusations of lying are from people who do not believe their stated reason is accurate, a contention you have not even argued with, though it's a bit premature.
MLG wants to build a business on fan support. For me at least, replays were a big part of this because it allowed me to step through the vast number of games that aren't being casted and take closer looks at games that I was interested in. That's no longer possible and I have less reason to support them.
I don't think the MLG people realize that the people that got the players on their friend's lists without any help at all from replays. You don't need them to do that.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
I still don't see any comments on why you don't want too release them after the event?
EDIT: Or is it about the monetizing point?
5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number.
Yes is was this section, the part where sat trucks cost a solid 6 figure number. That amount may be more than the house you are sitting in right now(depending on where you live).
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
I have no problem with this if it's really about #5 (i.e. "monetizing content"), but that should really just be an upfront reason given.
Also, MLG "lose[s] a tremendous amount of money every event"? Really? Either you're investing a ton of money into this every year for a very, very long time in the hope of being positioned well when things finally "take off", or this is just not true.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
EDIT: DDOS is a poor choice of words in our release.
Hi Lee, even if all that is accurate and correct, this isn't going to stop certain communities from just guessing character codes and spamming players anyway. I'm pretty sure this happened at Columbus and it's not outside the realm of possibility to expect it at Anaheim, much as I don't want that to happen.
Way to kill ESPORTS Sundance. Give us our free content please.
They're pulling a GSL, but saying it's because people are parsing info they can use to DDOS the players. Is R1CH sure they can't find anything even remotely like an IP Address or a character code from the replays?
Even if MLG is overreacting and simply confronting the problem of people trolling players by getting rid of everything that might cause the problem, how can we be all that mad? Wasn't it Puma at NASL that paused his game because someone was whispering him what his opponent was doing? Maybe it was Losira. Can't quite remember. Either way, it was a player actually having to raise his hand and tell the refs that someone was whispering him and fucking with the game. How can you honestly be mad at MLG for trying to stop that?
Sure, they can go Busy and six chat channels, but they're trying something. The problem will pop up if they force their players to go in as Busy and with the chat channels open. If they don't do that, then they honestly deserve every call of "Retarded" and "Are you fucking serious?"
But seriously.....are you guys pissed off enough at losing a free service, which you never had to pay for before, to not watch the awesome games this weekend? It's not like when you clicked "Accept" on the HQ Pass screen that you thought you were paying for replays. Those have always been free, so it's honestly up to MLG if they even want to offer the service. And they chose not to.
EDIT: Woooo, MLG_Lee! See, they knew it would suck for the community, but they did it as a way to protect the event. Not so EG-level evil, huh guys?
The only personal information in the replay files is the profile ID. This allows you to check out someone's profile on www.battle.net.
That's it. Where is there ANY risk if the replays get released after the fact?
It also allows you to bother the casters during a match, sending them messages if their Busy status resets again.
I was cringing several times last time, when Tastosis kept having 4chan trolls spamming them messages. Though I do not see why replays cannot be put up after the event, I see their reasoning.
I'd understand if it was a security issue, but things seem that could be worked out. Honestly, it's kinda unaccetable, hope they review the issue and remake their decision.
Also, the people considering that it's actually due to the SKs not wanting to reveal BOs - funny discussing this with people who probably hadn't had any contact with e-sports before SCII. Replaypacks for LANs are a must, everyone participating knows they are exposing their personal work, but they're doing it to actually succeed in the LAN.
Not to mention that a) It's obvious that how good a player is has absolutely nothing to do with a shitty BO every goldy can execute and b) The SK's Build Orders are exposed to the high-level foreigners who they play against, which the only ones that could really take advantage of them anyway.
Not quite sure how a replay can enable someone to DDOS the players and the event, but if it's a genuine concern I do'nt see why not. Although it does kind of suck that people can't watch replays of the pros to improve their play.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas?
4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. .
1.) what about releasing after the event?
4.) this has nothing to do with replays (other than maybe being able to get char. codes from them). and if you have to put something about setting "busy" and open six chats in the rules then that's a step you'll need to do. players will honor it and if they don't they'll be consequences for it. also you have refs...a ref checks to make sure they are set to busy and when they are then they give the "ok" to start the game
Hi Lee, even if all that is accurate and correct, this isn't going to stop certain communities from just guessing character codes and spamming players anyway.
Guess from 001 to 999? I think no troll is so retarded to waste their time in this way. It's so stupid in 99% the spam cannot be seen because of Busy-Mode.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv
Sent you an email, curious to see how this is possible. Still don't see how this affects releasing replays post-event though.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
EDIT: DDOS is a poor choice of words in our release.
My only hope is that you guys can figure out a way to release replays in the future. It's one of my favorite parts of MLG and it is something that separates you from other tournaments (like GSL). Casts are fun but replays are just an entirely different level of awesome.
I understand that you can't put the event at risk nor do I think anyone really want that. Please do try to find a solution though because replays are important.
As a computer science student I don't get the argument that it takes too long to process the replays. I don't know how exactly the data format works and if it is compressed or not but I am really sure that any kind of modern PC could finish such a simple task as replacing the players names with "player 1" and "player 2" (or just the players official names instead of their account names) in under an hour (edit: i mean for all of them together).
And I also can't understand how a ToS forbidding modifying replay files could be enforcable. How can you forbid someone to change a few bytes in a file? (but I don't know much about legal stuff so my common sense might fail me here.)
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
I still don't see any comments on why you don't want too release them after the event?
EDIT: Or is it about the monetizing point?
Just going to echo what this guy is saying. You talked about monetizing the event, but since you know how big of a deal releasing replays is to the community, then wouldn't that take precedence? Releasing them even a week after the event would be fine.
Hi Lee, even if all that is accurate and correct, this isn't going to stop certain communities from just guessing character codes and spamming players anyway.
Guess from 001 to 999? I think no troll is so retarded to waste their time in this way. It's so stupid in 99% the spam cannot be seen because of Busy-Mode.
I'm pretty sure there are bots that do this. You eliminate 99% of candidates since they are offline or not in game. Then you check match history on the remaining ones and you can be pretty much 99.999% accurate.
I don't wanna start a debate over me misunderstanding something, however
If character codes are the issue - you guys, MLG, do realise that most players have them public on some random league site, and that via google alone I could probably scoop the character codes for 80% of the players there (maybe not koreans)
Sorry if I misunderstood and there's some other info being extracted from reps, but if it's codes - they're already MORE than public.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
I still don't see any comments on why you don't want too release them after the event?
EDIT: Or is it about the monetizing point?
Just going to echo what this guy is saying. You talked about monetizing the event, but since you know how big of a deal releasing replays is to the community, and you make it clear yourself how you know this, then doesn't this take precedence?
Yea honestly if the not releasing replays post event is about money then just please state it. This whole run around thing feels like an EG press release . Next minute we going to get some form of internet show with MLG sundance and r1ch battling it out. Let's stop it before it gets there!
Hi Lee, even if all that is accurate and correct, this isn't going to stop certain communities from just guessing character codes and spamming players anyway.
Guess from 001 to 999? I think no troll is so retarded to waste their time in this way. It's so stupid in 99% the spam cannot be seen because of Busy-Mode.
So basically you're afraid that people will spam the players during the event if you release the replays DURING THE EVENT and you don't see any way around it...none at all (really?)........and then try to justify it by saying its to prevent DDoS, which is ridiculous.
Can you post the replays if we figure out all the nicks and codes from everyone and post in the internets? I am pretty sure it is doable so I'll be happy to have replay backs again, so it might be worth the effort, thanks <3
Excalibur's point is particularly chilling. I hope Blizzard can patch it out if that's the route of entry being used, maybe making character codes phone number length or implementing a true invisible/busy/ignoreeverything setting that doesn't bug out and reset.
Hi Lee, even if all that is accurate and correct, this isn't going to stop certain communities from just guessing character codes and spamming players anyway.
Guess from 001 to 999? I think no troll is so retarded to waste their time in this way. It's so stupid in 99% the spam cannot be seen because of Busy-Mode.
I'm pretty sure there are bots that do this. You eliminate 99% of candidates since they are offline or not in game. Then you check match history on the remaining ones and you can be pretty much 99.999% accurate.
even then 001 to 999 doesnt work entirely. as there are 4 digit codes out there.
Hi Lee, even if all that is accurate and correct, this isn't going to stop certain communities from just guessing character codes and spamming players anyway.
Guess from 001 to 999? I think no troll is so retarded to waste their time in this way. It's so stupid in 99% the spam cannot be seen because of Busy-Mode.
I'm pretty sure there are bots that do this. You eliminate 99% of candidates since they are offline or not in game. Then you check match history on the remaining ones and you can be pretty much 99.999% accurate.
even then 001 to 999 doesnt work entirely. as there are 4 digit codes out there.
4-digit codes only exist for common names like Josh, Michael, James, etc. Not for names like IMLosirA.
On July 30 2011 07:58 Shura wrote: i'll wait for rich's statement to see if this move is legit or purely commercial...
anyway, enjoy the few games we will have all ! :'(
I think if it was commercial, it would also be legit. They were pretty clear when they said that running the event cost money and they would like to make sure they can keep doing it.
Or they are building a money vault, like on Ducktails.
I'll tell you what MLG. If you start releasing replays again I'll start buying passes. Scouts honor, I will even post again to confirm that I've done it after this happens.
The issue isnt about character codes to spam players, and possibly lag them out. It is about MLG discontinuing their service to provide replays from the event to the public. They say they ill provide replays to their casters, and even individual players own their replays as well, and they can even release it to the public (which MLG cannot stop)
I love how people completely derail a thread the farther along it gets.
Hi Lee, even if all that is accurate and correct, this isn't going to stop certain communities from just guessing character codes and spamming players anyway.
Guess from 001 to 999? I think no troll is so retarded to waste their time in this way. It's so stupid in 99% the spam cannot be seen because of Busy-Mode.
I'm pretty sure there are bots that do this. You eliminate 99% of candidates since they are offline or not in game. Then you check match history on the remaining ones and you can be pretty much 99.999% accurate.
even then 001 to 999 doesnt work entirely. as there are 4 digit codes out there.
Anything below 8 digits gets cracked in seconds by any standard PC anyways, assuming that character codes are secure is ridiculous.
lol, they said DDOS. you cant scoop this from a replay. DDOS may only be a factor if they DDos the server that they are downloading the replays from, this may crash the router at the event. even so you can release replays after the event.
or you can be honest and say something like we will not be releasing replays to the public anymore. make something up that has nothing do do with computers because the computer nerds will tear you apart. Just say we dont want to pay for the service to host them or something.
also why dont you only release the replays for the open bracket, your VOD revenue will still come in because none of the games that are caster will be given out as replays
First and the most obvious statement = NO LAN. Secondly : Prepare to get charged for those or Casters will need to invest money in order to cast them. Finally, Dayum shame.
So much open bracket action that will be not covered.... how will anyone follow players games? So many epic moments in the open bracket never to be shared or experienced.....this is SO FAIL ON SO MANY LEVELS.
This seems like it's definitely a korean need going into MLG events. Gom won't release replays either (although that makes a little more sense) and that's why a lot of koreans don't like streaming as well.
Honestly though, MLGs aren't often enough to really warrant this.
If there was anything that i would want the community to be absurdly angry beyond logical sense it would be this. I love (LOOOOOVE) watching the MLG replays and is honestly about 20% of my enjoyment from the MLG experience. If they want to release them a week after the event or whatever that's fine.
Please MLG don't fucking do this! Anaheim could be the best event to date, and it will still be majorly hindered for me if you don't release replays.
On July 30 2011 08:14 SxYSpAz wrote: This seems like it's definitely a korean need going into MLG events. Gom won't release replays either (although that makes a little more sense) and that's why a lot of koreans don't like streaming as well.
Honestly though, MLGs aren't often enough to really warrant this.
If there was anything that i would want the community to be absurdly angry beyond logical sense it would be this. I love (LOOOOOVE) watching the MLG replays and is honestly about 20% of my enjoyment from the MLG experience. If they want to release them a week after the event or whatever that's fine.
Please MLG don't fucking do this! Anaheim could be the best event to date, and it will still be majorly hindered for me if you don't release replays.
Lee already said this has nothing to do with the koreans. He said it's an exploit. I'm sure R1ch will privatelly talk to him. If R1ch agrees, I'm sure noone else will them doubt.
I think someone should post on the battle.net forums about this issue.
Busy (currently) does not actually prevent messages sent to that person (still causes lag if say a few dozen players are spamming the player).
Make it so there's some sort of option that prevents messages from lagging a busy player (and/or make an "Invisible" mode where you appear offline and can't be added and can't even be talked to except maybe with friends or players from a white list).
On July 30 2011 08:09 Endure wrote: why dont they release it after the event?
Yeah. I don't understand the reason for them not to release replays because they can't "clean" all the replays in time. Can't they just make a simple app that will automate their "clean-up" process?
On July 30 2011 08:14 SxYSpAz wrote: This seems like it's definitely a korean need going into MLG events. Gom won't release replays either (although that makes a little more sense) and that's why a lot of koreans don't like streaming as well.
Honestly though, MLGs aren't often enough to really warrant this.
If there was anything that i would want the community to be absurdly angry beyond logical sense it would be this. I love (LOOOOOVE) watching the MLG replays and is honestly about 20% of my enjoyment from the MLG experience. If they want to release them a week after the event or whatever that's fine.
Please MLG don't fucking do this! Anaheim could be the best event to date, and it will still be majorly hindered for me if you don't release replays.
Lee already said this has nothing to do with the koreans. He said it's an exploit. I'm sure R1ch will privatelly talk to him. If R1ch agrees, I'm sure noone else will them doubt.
if you have a problem with lag because of people spam messaging you then all you have to do is not share any of your replays and only share them with specific casters and then it will be ok
On July 30 2011 08:14 SxYSpAz wrote: This seems like it's definitely a korean need going into MLG events. Gom won't release replays either (although that makes a little more sense) and that's why a lot of koreans don't like streaming as well.
Honestly though, MLGs aren't often enough to really warrant this.
If there was anything that i would want the community to be absurdly angry beyond logical sense it would be this. I love (LOOOOOVE) watching the MLG replays and is honestly about 20% of my enjoyment from the MLG experience. If they want to release them a week after the event or whatever that's fine.
Please MLG don't fucking do this! Anaheim could be the best event to date, and it will still be majorly hindered for me if you don't release replays.
Lee already said this has nothing to do with the koreans. He said it's an exploit. I'm sure R1ch will privatelly talk to him. If R1ch agrees, I'm sure noone else will them doubt.
what do you mean by "it's an exploit"?
They could use the Replays to trace players and spam messages, causing lag and disconnects. Some of the problems MLG had in the previous events where because of that. A big part of the problem is Blizzard fault for a shitty busy system, so exploit may not be the correct term. It has been discussed by people who know far more than me in the first pages, if you are really curious.
I think people are to hung up on character codes. This may have nothing to do with that. There can exist a packet falsified using the data from the replay, which will be forwarded to the player. (Remember that BNet 2.0 works a big router hiding all the accounts.)
I am not saying this is the case. But if it was, then clearly cause problems with limited bandwidth at such events as is this one. Remember there is 256 +16 players logged in at pretty much the same time. Abusing the battle.net session or even the protocol (Which is a black box) to DDoS the service would be catastrophic for the event.
I hope they release the replays after the event is over, otherwise its kind of dumb.
This is essentially chopping off 80% of the tournament, with only a miniscule amount of games being casted we miss out on most of the open bracket and some pool play, I really loved watching replays to learn some cool new builds and every event I learn some new timing.
I don't think it's even feasable to sell replays, we all know that as soon as the replays are made available to the public by any means they will find themselves on the internet one way or another.
You guys are also forgetting that since there is no GM its so incredibly easy to add players to your friend's list by simply going through random masters divisions, going through players you find's match history, and repeating.
You can literally add every single player at MLG as easy as ever right now.
On July 30 2011 08:09 Endure wrote: why dont they release it after the event?
Yeah. I don't understand the reason for them not to release replays because they can't "clean" all the replays in time. Can't they just make a simple app that will automate their "clean-up" process?
This is what I was going to ask. If they're worried about the replays being released during the event, why not just release them the day after the event? Are there other reasons for this?
On July 30 2011 08:20 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote: I think people are to hung up on character codes. This may have nothing to do with that. There can exist a packet falsified using the data from the replay, which will be forwarded to the player. (Remember that BNet 2.0 works a big router hiding all the accounts.)
I am not saying this is the case. But if it was, then clearly cause problems with limited bandwidth at such events as is this one. Remember there is 256 +16 players logged in at pretty much the same time. Abusing the battle.net session or even the protocol (Which is a black box) to DDoS the service would be catastrophic for the event.
I hope they release the replays after the event is over, otherwise its kind of dumb.
i think the biggest problem was the fact they would not release them after the event. It very understanble even with what we know so far that they don't do it during it. Still, there may be something else we don't know yet.
On July 30 2011 08:14 SxYSpAz wrote: This seems like it's definitely a korean need going into MLG events. Gom won't release replays either (although that makes a little more sense) and that's why a lot of koreans don't like streaming as well.
Honestly though, MLGs aren't often enough to really warrant this.
If there was anything that i would want the community to be absurdly angry beyond logical sense it would be this. I love (LOOOOOVE) watching the MLG replays and is honestly about 20% of my enjoyment from the MLG experience. If they want to release them a week after the event or whatever that's fine.
Please MLG don't fucking do this! Anaheim could be the best event to date, and it will still be majorly hindered for me if you don't release replays.
Lee already said this has nothing to do with the koreans. He said it's an exploit. I'm sure R1ch will privatelly talk to him. If R1ch agrees, I'm sure noone else will them doubt.
what do you mean by "it's an exploit"?
They could use the Replays to trace players and spam messages, causing lag and disconnects. Some of the problems MLG had in the previous events where because of that. A big part of the problem is Blizzard fault for a shitty busy system, so exploit may not be the correct term. It has been discussed by people who know far more than me in the first pages, if you are really curious.
okay, but a lot of people have said the obvious thing... as well as i have.
How does this matter if MLG releases them afterwards? and tbh i can't imagine an answer that i'll trust from them, since this was the most obvious solution to the problem and if lagging the players really was the reason and there was something wrong with this solution they would have been smart enough to address why this wouldn't fix the problem.
And btw, how could this not fix it? maybe i'm overlooking something, but it seems like there's alterior motives in play here
If they can strip the information at all, then they can write an application to automatically strip all the information extremely rapidly. Everyone should Tweet at @MLGBen and @MLG telling them that a script can handle this, assuming they're being honest. I even offered to help them write this, and I hope those of you who are knowledgeable regarding CS will do the same.
The phrase "this is why we can't have nice things" has never been more relevant.
The in-game spamming of players, the casters who were just re-casting games that were already available as MLG vods for youtube revenue with little or no attribution. sigh.
It's unfortunate because cramming as many games as MLG does into the 2 and a half days means it's almost impossible to cover adequately, but they need to in order to fund their prize pool. I guess a lot of the replays are going to be re-cast as MLG Live content as well? It's a pity, the replays are much more valuable as a player in order to look at specific builds or specific players.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv
Sent you an email, curious to see how this is possible. Still don't see how this affects releasing replays post-event though.
Basically this. But please keep in mind Lee you just gave even more ammunition for players to want to spam players and etc.
I can see whispers now "FREE THE REPLAYS" just in hopes the player forgets to set to busy. If you think that not releasing the replays makes the players vulnerable for the next event then that is one thing. But don't try to out smart the community by saying the risk is higher for post event replays versus when they are sitting at the event and everyone (that is going to troll regardless) is messaging and finding out the char codes anyways.
Please keep in mind MLG is one of the only LANs that stick to their guns when releasing replays. You are taking that away from yourself and your community. I hope this is not some ploy to start setting it up so gold members get replays + HD stream.
On July 30 2011 08:16 Goldfish wrote: I think someone should post on the battle.net forums about this issue.
Busy (currently) does not actually prevent messages sent to that person (still causes lag if say a few dozen players are spamming the player).
Make it so there's some sort of option that prevents messages from lagging a busy player (and/or make an "Invisible" mode where you appear offline and can't be added and can't even be talked to except maybe with friends or players from a white list).
Anyone want to make to help make a battle.net thread about this? Sadly though it's Friday which usually means no blues on the weekend (not sure if it's too late or not though).
Also even if a fix doesn't hit in time, as long as the fix comes at all (for future events) then that's good enough.
On July 30 2011 08:25 On_Slaught wrote: Well there goes MLG mondays
Not necessarily true, as they said, they'll be sending out replays to trusted casters to cast, so I'm sure if iccup put a request in they could get them. Though we don't know what "trusted" means in this case.
I will miss the replay packs, but will also not be tuning into day9 or of any other caster who's friends with JP just to watch MLG replays that nobody else has access to. Lame imho.
Well now MLG is just like any other tourney. I was attracted to MLG because they gave out the replays. I watched all 3 days of their tourneys, though, for the casting.
MLG is saying they won't be releasing replays AFTER the event. All the garbage about casters getting spammed or players getting spammed doesn't mean anything in this discussion. Please don't try to sympathize with MLG on this. It is quite obvious they aren't releasing the replays after the tourney because they want to sell said replays to casters.
On July 30 2011 08:25 On_Slaught wrote: Well there goes MLG mondays
Not necessarily true, as they said, they'll be sending out replays to trusted casters to cast, so I'm sure if iccup put a request in they could get them. Though we don't know what "trusted" means in this case.
Ya I just got to that part of the thread.
Hopefully Raelcun is one of those (I think it was him who does the show).
people forget pro's have actualy posted there names and codes in forums like team liquid and such in the past.. people have many ways to get them on their friends list already.,. a replay is just a twig in a forest to them.
A lot of this could be solved if Blizzard would add an option like, "Offline mode - Do not accept friend requests, chatroom invites, game invites, or private messages from anyone not already on your friends list."
But no, it's BNet 2.0. So good that you'll always want to be on it.
On July 30 2011 08:22 atmuh wrote: You guys are also forgetting that since there is no GM its so incredibly easy to add players to your friend's list by simply going through random masters divisions, going through players you find's match history, and repeating.
You can literally add every single player at MLG as easy as ever right now.
assuming they dont use their known battle ids for ro16 and up(or w/e) the method u describe shouldnt be an issue
I would not be suprised if MLG would actually go a head and release the replays at some point after the event due to the community reaction on this, trust me they are halo people they probably didn't realize how important these replays are to sc 2.
EDIT@someofthepeoplewhosaydon'tsupportmlg: Yeah lets fuck up what we have waited for since BW got huge in Korea, let's fuck SC2 in the butt by not supporting the companies that help this game grow as an esport, let's fuck all that shit and not pay and let's just wait for WCG each year so we get our one big event per year.
On July 30 2011 08:33 koonst wrote: people forget pro's have actualy posted there names and codes in forums like team liquid and such in the past.. people have many ways to get them on their friends list already.,. a replay is just a twig in a forest to them.
Except for the fact that they don't use their own account at MLG... at least not when playing on the stage.
Because of this decision by MLG I will not be purchasing the Gold membership I had planned to purchase (I have purchased several seasons of GSL and the first NASL season previously). In addition I will be using ad-blocking software when watching any MLG matches whether on their own streams or on youtube or bliptv channels of the privileged few who get to see the replays. I hope many others take these steps so they realize that doing this will not get them any more ad revenue or membership purchases.
On July 30 2011 08:32 Frek wrote: I really don't think anyone is getting the issue:
MLG is saying they won't be releasing replays AFTER the event. All the garbage about casters getting spammed or players getting spammed doesn't mean anything in this discussion. Please don't try to sympathize with MLG on this. It is quite obvious they aren't releasing the replays after the tourney because they want to sell said replays to casters.
Sadly this appears to be true. It is extremely easy to find out someone's code's and whisper them, with probably the vast majority of players codes publicly known somewhere. Perhaps this is to try and eliminate the casters from this, like MLGCasterA etc. but as has been said before it is relatively simple to do this via trial and error and is a relatively moot point after the fact (unless they somehow want to keep their IDs secret fo the entire pro-circuit, which seems naive to me).
On July 30 2011 08:33 rave[wcr] wrote: release the replays after the event!
On July 30 2011 08:33 rave[wcr] wrote: release the replays after the event!
Can someone please explain why this wouldn't work?!?!? WTF!?!?!
I don't know... this was my first thought though.
Maybe they have to use the same accounts afterwards? But I'm pretty sure that's not the case, otherwise they will have the same problems with the same trolls as last time.
Just another reason why no LAN is so annoying. Or at least have some private server or something that can be used at special events....Sounds like all the reasons the reps are not being released is to not expose any undo risks...still doesn't explain why they cant be released after.
also doesn't TLPD people use reps to enter the data of the games in from open bracket play? Guess we're not going to get many results in TLPD from any of the open bracket.
On July 30 2011 08:35 meursault wrote: Because of this decision by MLG I will not be purchasing the Gold membership I had planned to purchase (I have purchased several seasons of GSL and the first NASL season previously). In addition I will be using ad-blocking software when watching any MLG matches whether on their own streams or on youtube or bliptv channels of the privileged few who get to see the replays. I hope many others take these steps so they realize that doing this will not get them any more ad revenue or membership purchases.
So you're going to punish the people who make content and give back the community like iCCup, Husky, IPL, PsyStarcraft and Day[9] because you're angry at MLG.
On July 30 2011 08:33 rave[wcr] wrote: release the replays after the event!
On July 30 2011 08:33 rave[wcr] wrote: release the replays after the event!
Can someone please explain why this wouldn't work?!?!? WTF!?!?!
I don't know... this was my first thought though.
Maybe they have to use the same accounts afterwards? But I'm pretty sure that's not the case, otherwise they will have the same problems with the same trolls as last time.
i know for a fact that's not the case, at past mlgs they all have starter portraits, and last time they said they called blizzard for smurf account ids. Even if they had to spend $50 for an account it would be worth it, and they don't. they just call blizzard for ids
On July 30 2011 08:35 meursault wrote: Because of this decision by MLG I will not be purchasing the Gold membership I had planned to purchase (I have purchased several seasons of GSL and the first NASL season previously). In addition I will be using ad-blocking software when watching any MLG matches whether on their own streams or on youtube or bliptv channels of the privileged few who get to see the replays. I hope many others take these steps so they realize that doing this will not get them any more ad revenue or membership purchases.
Really? None of the other tournaments you mentioned release replays either, and you're just going to cut it off because they once had something cool and now are doing the same thing as the other tournaments?
I mean I'm as upset as everyone else here, but that's a bit much.
On July 30 2011 08:35 meursault wrote: Because of this decision by MLG I will not be purchasing the Gold membership I had planned to purchase (I have purchased several seasons of GSL and the first NASL season previously). In addition I will be using ad-blocking software when watching any MLG matches whether on their own streams or on youtube or bliptv channels of the privileged few who get to see the replays. I hope many others take these steps so they realize that doing this will not get them any more ad revenue or membership purchases.
So you're going to punish the people who make content and give back the community like iCCup, Husky, IPL, PsyStarcraft and Day[9] because you're angry at MLG.
Awesome logic there.
Not for all content on their channels. Only MLG content.
edit:MLG benefits from the relationship they foster with casters by giving them exclusive access to replays. This is a way to reduce that benefit.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
EDIT: DDOS is a poor choice of words in our release. Chat spam on the game clients which lags the game is what was meant. EDIT: And yes, I know you can find other ways to get to the same information. But I can't stop those. I can reduce risk on things I can control. Not taking those steps is negligent.
1. there is no risk. even it is, it cant be avoid by not releasing replays. 2. ok... i was originally thought this is due to korea pro's demand. thx for clarifying it's ur problem, mlg. 3. why do u even want to modify the replays? to avoid so called 'risk'? 4. if player forgot set to busy, it's their own problem. they are already adults. they can eat by themself and no need to wear diaper. cant believe pro's with 200+ apm wont be able to do this. 5. no offense. some casters are horrible. 6. no comment
On July 30 2011 08:35 meursault wrote: Because of this decision by MLG I will not be purchasing the Gold membership I had planned to purchase (I have purchased several seasons of GSL and the first NASL season previously). In addition I will be using ad-blocking software when watching any MLG matches whether on their own streams or on youtube or bliptv channels of the privileged few who get to see the replays. I hope many others take these steps so they realize that doing this will not get them any more ad revenue or membership purchases.
I'm doing this as well. Especially after how I was treated as a player at mlg columbus. (getting yelled at for asking why my seat was mixed up? Okay buddy.)
On July 30 2011 08:35 meursault wrote: Because of this decision by MLG I will not be purchasing the Gold membership I had planned to purchase (I have purchased several seasons of GSL and the first NASL season previously). In addition I will be using ad-blocking software when watching any MLG matches whether on their own streams or on youtube or bliptv channels of the privileged few who get to see the replays. I hope many others take these steps so they realize that doing this will not get them any more ad revenue or membership purchases.
So you're going to punish the people who make content and give back the community like iCCup, Husky, IPL, PsyStarcraft and Day[9] because you're angry at MLG.
Awesome logic there.
You realize they all make money? They don't sit on toilets making honey all day
I'm extremely disappointed. I was looking forward to studying the MLG replays in detail. Why can't they simply release them after the event to the public? This is a huge blow to me caring at all about MLG to be completely honest. With all the stream and scheduling problems they've had in the past, Columbus had me rooting for them to be the best, but this basically throws all of that faith away. Looks like that Gold membership isn't worth it, what a poor investment on my part.
so basically i dont get to watch hardly any of the games i wanted to watch for MLG... white-ra's games better be streamed from the open bracket or im not even going to bother watching the stream all weekend =/
kinda sucks but mlgs gotta do what is best for the event and everyone else involved and i think that this is fine although i do wish i could watch the replays
Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
if MLG can't explain why they can't release them after the event then i'm only left to put on my tin-foil hat and assume they are going to distribute them to whichever casters they'd like and then put those VODs on MLG's website in low quality for everyone with ads, and high quality for Gold members with little to no ads
Not releasing after the event is the real problem here. I don't want to study replays via some caster's VODs, I want to study them for myself. It's just absurd, use smurf accounts for god's sake.
On July 30 2011 08:51 jmbthirteen wrote: Another tournament that does something that GSL does and gets criticized for it while GSL doesn't!
What a surprise!
Its really different. GSL doesnt release replays because the Koreans do not want their plays studied by others. NASL doesnt release replays because they want to earn money (they are supposed to be released after the event to subscribers only).
The main reason so many is unhappy at MLG is their reasons for not releasing the replays are full of holes, which as many in this thread has point out.
Overall, I dont understand why they cant release it after the tournament, or even make it available to subscribers only if money is a issue.
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
That is good enough reason for me , but what is the reasoning behind not releasing them days after.
If MLG is doing this for money, so be it. This is a company first and people need to respect that. However a certain level of transparency need to be shown. I don't think many people would be against MLG for doing it for money, we just want to know the truth.
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
from the point of view of someone who knows nothing about this, why do replays even contain that kind of data? it seems so pointless
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
Not releasing it during the event is actually fine, can you see why they don't want to release it after the event? =(
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
On July 30 2011 08:51 jmbthirteen wrote: Another tournament that does something that GSL does and gets criticized for it while GSL doesn't!
What a surprise!
That's because we won't be able to change the mind of the people in charge of the GSL, not releasing replays is the Korean way. But its not uncommon for foreign tournaments to release replays and MLG has released replays from all their other tournaments.
I hope they change their minds and release the replays after the events, it would be a shame for so many of the weekends games to never be seen.
On July 30 2011 08:51 jmbthirteen wrote: Another tournament that does something that GSL does and gets criticized for it while GSL doesn't!
What a surprise!
That's because we won't be able to change the mind of the people in charge of the GSL, not releasing replays is the Korean way. But its not uncommon for foreign tournaments to release replays and MLG has released replays from all their other tournaments.
I hope they change their minds and release the replays after the events, it would be a shame for so many of the weekends games to never be seen.
I think the biggest reason is actually that GSL shows every single game. If we had Vods of every single game from MLG, it wouldn't be that big of a problem.
That, and the fact that we didn't really understand their reasons for not releasing them after MLG is over, it doesn't mean that most of us wouldn't understand it if they said they wanted to promote their vod, respect koreans, etc.
On July 30 2011 09:03 R1CH wrote: Unless the accounts are used for subsequent MLGs I don't see the harm in releasing replays after the event.
Yeah I'm calling bullshit on the phoney excuse. Whatever their reason I doubt its security. Most the players in MLG have replays on the internet anyway, and if its after the event, whats the risk?
On July 30 2011 09:03 R1CH wrote: Unless the accounts are used for subsequent MLGs I don't see the harm in releasing replays after the event.
I hope blizzard would support esports by providing a handful of free new temporary accounts to well established leagues
Yeah....... good luck with that.
This is sad news indeed. I was planning on studying many a replay to try and improve my game. I guess SC2 this weekend has to be purely for entertainment.
On July 30 2011 09:03 R1CH wrote: Unless the accounts are used for subsequent MLGs I don't see the harm in releasing replays after the event.
I hope blizzard would support esports by providing a handful of free new temporary accounts to well established leagues
They already do that no?
yeah they do. no excuse for this. There's a part of me that wants to believe that they'll look at the situation and go "well, hey i guess we could release these after the event." but there's obviously some other reason they don't feel necessary to tell the community about.
That's pretty shitty of you MLG. Now that you're all big and makin dollars you immediatly stop giving shit about us? cool. thanks for killing my hype right before anaheim starts
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
I now have two questions. one for you rich.
Rich, does there reasoning affect after the event? and if it does how so?
and what about all the replay sites out there hosting replays... why dont these have the same issue as mlg?
I'm still trying to figure out personally why they can't release them. Either they don't want to upload them from the Anaheim site or it's something in the replay itself, which I can only see the character name, and not the code.. There has to be something though.
rofl, if you want to chat spam pros it's not hard to get hold of their character code so I don't really get this. That and the fact they've released replays of most of these players before or the players themselves release their own replays which contain the same data.
Super disappointing. If Bliz had an actual Do not disturb set up this wouldn't be an issue at all. -.-
Argh. Annoying. I was really hoping to pick up some new Styles from nani and huk. It's nice even being able to go at x2 through replays of certain match ups just to get ideas.
Hi Lee, even if all that is accurate and correct, this isn't going to stop certain communities from just guessing character codes and spamming players anyway.
Guess from 001 to 999? I think no troll is so retarded to waste their time in this way. It's so stupid in 99% the spam cannot be seen because of Busy-Mode.
I'm pretty sure there are bots that do this. You eliminate 99% of candidates since they are offline or not in game. Then you check match history on the remaining ones and you can be pretty much 99.999% accurate.
even then 001 to 999 doesnt work entirely. as there are 4 digit codes out there.
4-digit codes only exist for common names like Josh, Michael, James, etc. Not for names like IMLosirA.
Since Blizzard, at least I assume, is giving MLG these accounts couldn't they give them accounts with 4 digit codes?
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
That is the problem with what MLG is doing. No reason to not release them after the event.
Disappointed fan here, I loved MLG for releasing replays. It encourages fans to tune in live IMO, so they can pinpoint replays they'd benefit from watching. Hopefully they'll release replays after the event?
this is incredibly unfortunate.. some form of post event release needs to be done as the release of these replays result in a worldwide increase in skill in all sc2 players who choose to watch them.
On July 30 2011 10:24 Rossi wrote: this is incredibly unfortunate.. some form of post event release needs to be done as the release of these replays result in a worldwide increase in skill in all sc2 players who choose to watch them.
Another disappointed fan and player here.
This is absolutely correct, PLEASE listen to your viewers.
On July 30 2011 10:24 Rossi wrote: this is incredibly unfortunate.. some form of post event release needs to be done as the release of these replays result in a worldwide increase in skill in all sc2 players who choose to watch them.
Another disappointed fan and player here.
This is absolutely correct, PLEASE listen to your viewers.
I totally agree, i can safely say i wont be giving MLG my money anymore, just because replays were such a big part of the service for me.
On July 30 2011 10:24 Rossi wrote: this is incredibly unfortunate.. some form of post event release needs to be done as the release of these replays result in a worldwide increase in skill in all sc2 players who choose to watch them.
Another disappointed fan and player here.
I learnt so much from MMA's play last mlg, was looking forward to learning from all the new replays :'( Would be brilliant if they could release replays after it's over, but if not at least we get to see some amazing matches :D
On July 30 2011 08:16 Goldfish wrote: I think someone should post on the battle.net forums about this issue.
Busy (currently) does not actually prevent messages sent to that person (still causes lag if say a few dozen players are spamming the player).
Make it so there's some sort of option that prevents messages from lagging a busy player (and/or make an "Invisible" mode where you appear offline and can't be added and can't even be talked to except maybe with friends or players from a white list).
Anyone want to make to help make a battle.net thread about this? Sadly though it's Friday which usually means no blues on the weekend (not sure if it's too late or not though).
Also even if a fix doesn't hit in time, as long as the fix comes at all (for future events) then that's good enough.
On one of Wheat's shows they said they would release the replays after the event because they had problems with players getting messaged so much they were getting spikes so they would release the reps after the event. I don't get why they won't release them at all. That's really sad.
MMA vs drewbie paused because MMA is getting mass whispered. This is really helping prevent that /not. But that has already been said before.
Having said that, I have to say that it's an incredibly baller move by MLG to make this decision to maybe prevent the spamming from happening. They must have known the response they would get from the community. As a fan I don't like it, and it's not helping... but from an organisational point of view I do think it's a good move to try anything to ensure a smooth tournament.
On July 30 2011 10:24 Rossi wrote: this is incredibly unfortunate.. some form of post event release needs to be done as the release of these replays result in a worldwide increase in skill in all sc2 players who choose to watch them.
Another disappointed fan and player here.
This is absolutely correct, PLEASE listen to your viewers.
I totally agree, i can safely say i wont be giving MLG my money anymore, just because replays were such a big part of the service for me.
That doesn't make any sense. The replays were free.
On July 30 2011 07:52 Mauldo wrote: Way to kill ESPORTS Sundance. Give us our free content please.
They're pulling a GSL, but saying it's because people are parsing info they can use to DDOS the players. Is R1CH sure they can't find anything even remotely like an IP Address or a character code from the replays?
Even if MLG is overreacting and simply confronting the problem of people trolling players by getting rid of everything that might cause the problem, how can we be all that mad? Wasn't it Puma at NASL that paused his game because someone was whispering him what his opponent was doing? Maybe it was Losira. Can't quite remember. Either way, it was a player actually having to raise his hand and tell the refs that someone was whispering him and fucking with the game. How can you honestly be mad at MLG for trying to stop that?
Sure, they can go Busy and six chat channels, but they're trying something. The problem will pop up if they force their players to go in as Busy and with the chat channels open. If they don't do that, then they honestly deserve every call of "Retarded" and "Are you fucking serious?"
But seriously.....are you guys pissed off enough at losing a free service, which you never had to pay for before, to not watch the awesome games this weekend? It's not like when you clicked "Accept" on the HQ Pass screen that you thought you were paying for replays. Those have always been free, so it's honestly up to MLG if they even want to offer the service. And they chose not to.
EDIT: Woooo, MLG_Lee! See, they knew it would suck for the community, but they did it as a way to protect the event. Not so EG-level evil, huh guys?
Erm.... I'm really skeptical myself and part of me feels like it's just a cop-out to further monetise the event at the expense of both players who seek to improve and nearly all but a select few casters.
However, there has been a huge rise recently in douchebags DDOSing progamers. Notable individuals to be hit by such attacks include Day[9] (during his daily webshow) and Destiny, so it does seem somewhat plausible. And if anybody has been following the Destiny case, Mr Bonnell has potentially lost hundreds if not thousands of dollars of potential income from some stupid fucking worse-than-script kiddie who (according to his stream and skype conversations) actually used a website that cost $20 a month to obtain Destiny's IP when it was easily obtainable through other methods.
However, who's to say that they're getting the information needed to DDOS those players from replays?
They could be getting it from an entirely different source, so I don't feel it is fair to just scapegoat replays in all this....
However, I do think something drastic needs to be done about the Battle.net issue. I think it's about time that Blizzard just gave in, implemented LAN support in Starcraft II and stopped trying to police ESPORTS. Otherwise, we're going to have more and more events continually ruined by this DDOSing/chat sniping/cheating crap, merely because Blizzard are being incredibly overprotective of their intellectual property.
In fact, a LAN hack has already been released (Which I won't link because I don't want to condone piracy.)
Sorry Blizzard, the pirates have won. Just give up already and stop plaguing your games with crappy feature removing methods of DRM.
This was one of the best parts of MLG. I had my ccard out to buy a pass before I read about only 1 stream in HQ and then this. I'm glad I didn't give them any money.
MLG just doesn't understand the nerd "real"life metagame.
You can't say there won't be replays anymore from a silly reason, the nerd rage will prove you wrong, mass lag you regardless even higher than what you were trying to avoid. Nerd rage man!!
That said, can you give us the replays pretty please? It seems to be proved the lag is just as Colombus and without replays Colombus will forever be your best event, Anaheim will be the event that had some matches that no one saw, like... so what? ;_;
Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
wow, I am really sad to see this is necessary, I've always spent the week following MLG getting any new builds or looking ways to refine timings...unfortunate I am really, really, sorry to hear this.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
At least try to ask Blizzard to change the replays IDs or whatever is the problem, but saying you won't release it as if it wasn't something people expected is sad, replays were a huge reason for people loving MLG.
The replays of the MLG games were my *****favorite part of MLG***** This news is just devastating to me T.T;;;
Couldn't MLG just release all the replays after the event is over? So sad about the loss of replays.
Edit: saw the mlg response a couple of posts up. Sorry, I'm not a tech guru. All I know is I loved being able to access the pro replays and analyze them in depth in my own free time. Almost everything I do in this game I pulled from or learned from MLG replays. I still <3 MLG, I'm just really really going to miss the replays. Hope yall find a way and the time to continue releasing the replays to the public.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
No offense Lee, but u might consider hiring professional OB for the game if u dont want release replays. The current OB sucks ...
And for god sake, we can see all the players ID in the VOD without any problem. And everyone here know the site sc2rank. Are you sure this is the only reason mlg dont want to release replays?
Well they already released the old replays and since most participants are the same, any potential hacker can use the replays already released by MLG and would only not be able to if the player did not participate in any of the competitions before Anaheim.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
then whats to stop people from exploiting this from the previous events you did release? making that argument entirely flawed. or what about players that have uploaded replays and stuff from other events. does this flaw still exist? im assuming it does as that is why your saying we cant have them after....
Basically what im saying above is, any high level player at that event, we can get a replay of regardless of whether they played at a previous MLG.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
what is the risk and why does it carry to the next event?
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
Every pro gamer at MLG has replays released. This is a silly response man. Please respect the internet more than THAT because a determined troll can bypass this step extremely easily.
This move by MLG is punishing the fans more than anything. It does not prevent this style of attack on the event.
Actually it does, because it is trivial for a progamer to buy another account and only use it for MLG, just as long as the indentifier doesn't get out. It can even have their ID as that doesn't have to be unique.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
You guys just focus on running an awesome event. The trolls will eventually crawl back under the bridge.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
You realize that it is shockingly simple to friend a player right? I am pretty sure as far as spamming the players goes, the cat is already out of the bag. Refusing to release replays does nothing to prevent players being spammed with invites. In the best case scenario people will simply try every possible friend code from 0-999 until they get it right.
If it really is that big of a problem, simply hold the community hostage for enough donations to cover the cost of a whole set of fresh accounts for every 2 events(you can change names once and get a new ID). This should come out to about $6000 per event (actually substantially less - more like $500/even because all the accounts you need are for the koreans and casters considering you don't require a fresh account for the event).
If you purchase a new set of caster accounts for every event you will be able to release the replays with no additional risk to your event logistics than what is already available.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
Unfortunately it makes me very sad every couple of months when an MLG goes on I get back in to starcraft because i can watch tons of high level replays and see the builds they do and tailor a few to add in to my game play. Was really looking forward to doing that again!
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
And seeing as you have released replays of the vast majority of these players before does that not cancel this out?
But yeh as others have said it is super to get char codes of pros and use them to spam/harass regardless.
I don't think this action was thoroughly thought out. As it has been said before, pros have already released a ton of replays- so their information already has been (apparently) compromised. Any more releases wouldn't change anything.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
There are replays from these players all over the internet already, I don't understand how MLG replays could be technically different from existing replays.
Pretty annoyed about this, used to love to watch the open bracket replays to see what i couldnt on streams. As some of those matchs if casted would be excellent.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
There are replays from these players all over the internet already, I don't understand how MLG replays could be technically different from existing replays.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
do you feel bad hiding the truth? i heard you guys say in an interview that you were calling up blizzard and asking for smurf accounts, and that they kept having to hand out more and more to you. so obviously not a big deal.
At least don't treat the community as a bunch of idiots. You want to get money from people watching the VODs? That's fine, completely understandable - but at least say it.
Also, MLG_Lee - you say "releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION" - can we expect some further technical investigation and possibly releasing them?
I dont understand this at all. You already admitted that there are way easier methods to gain this same information and yet you go on and hurt your fanbase with an action that is not going to reduce the problem at all because 1) everybody can still do it with a few clicks 2) the 2% people who will actually go through all the trouble Rich explained can STILL do this stuff without the repalys. I would understand if you took this action because it actually helped the event run significantly better but it does not seems to be the case. Maybe I am getting it wrong but so far it seems to me we need extra clarification .
On July 30 2011 12:59 Perfi wrote: At least don't treat the community as a bunch of idiots. You want to get money from people watching the VODs? That's fine, completely understandable - but at least say it.
try finding VODs of games which were not cast which should be the majority of all games
I was OK with giving Korean pros the advantage by seeding them in the top and only 1 in every group so they don't knock each other out but add to that the lack of any sorts of replays is just turning this toa mini GSL, I know this sounds whiny and stupid but between too many Koreans and no replays I've really lost interest in actually watching the games. Thanks for @MLGSC2Scores on twitter, though.
Also maybe talk to Blizzard to make all the MLG accounts with infinite name/code changes for every event?
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
Every pro gamer at MLG has replays released. This is a silly response man. Please respect the internet more than THAT because a determined troll can bypass this step extremely easily.
This move by MLG is punishing the fans more than anything. It does not prevent this style of attack on the event.
Exactly, this is nonsensical. Glad I held off on the pass until the first day of the event, MLG seems to be taking a lot of steps in the right direction but this is just silly. Will not be supporting them with a pass purchase after this.
On July 30 2011 12:20 OldManZerg wrote: Step 1: Look at GM rankings on battlenet. Step 2: Click on GM. Step 3: Add friend.
Ok that actaully DOESN'T work.
yes it does, go try it. Unless you mean it doesn't work because there is no gm yet, in which case you would be correct.
Well, let me rephrase. You can't message a GM without having them on real-ID. Try adding a GM you don't have on real ID and then sending a message or game invite. You cant. If you can add last season and do that its a bug (I haven't checked but since there is no GM league right now maybe this is why you think this).
On July 30 2011 12:20 OldManZerg wrote: Step 1: Look at GM rankings on battlenet. Step 2: Click on GM. Step 3: Add friend.
Ok that actaully DOESN'T work.
yes it does, go try it. Unless you mean it doesn't work because there is no gm yet, in which case you would be correct.
Well, let me rephrase. You can't message a GM without having them on real-ID. Try adding a GM you don't have on real ID and then sending a message or game invite. You cant. If you can add last season and do that its a bug (I haven't checked but since there is no GM league right now maybe this is why you think this).
No its not real id, you need there friend code, you cant just right clikc then add, you either need friend code or email.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them.
Is editing replays (stripping chat for example) really against Blizzard ToS? I would have to dig through the ToS, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim this before. So many people do this, including Day9.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them.
Is editing replays (stripping chat for example) really against Blizzard ToS? I would have to dig through the ToS, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim this before. So many people do this, including Day9.
I checked the ToS. I'm guessing Lee is referring to this:
I really don't think they should be, as others have put it well, punishing the fans.
Like others mentioned, there are already still super easy ways to find accounts' friend codes etc. and message them, etc.
As someone else mentioned a reason for this could be so they could get slightly higher views on VODs, but like someone else mentioned, the majority of games aren't casted.
Sad face. I thought i could watch more epic replays of Boxer finally it is so hard to find any of him.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them.
Is editing replays (stripping chat for example) really against Blizzard ToS? I would have to dig through the ToS, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim this before. So many people do this, including Day9.
I checked the ToS. I'm guessing Lee is referring to this:
Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
I'm no lawyer, but I don't think replays are considered part of the game.
Yeah, again, they fail at metagame of real life or they think we are stupid. Blizzard obviously won't sue them if they do it, even if it is against the TOS, common sense man. The law doesn't come to you, Blizzard needs to sue and they won't for obvious reasons. So stop giving bad reasons MLG >.>
I don't see a big problem. It's their event and t hey can choose to release or not release replays. They can upload replays on a thumb drive and put it into a glass bottle and throw it out to sea and all of us have to wait at beaches all around the world to see who gets it and I think it will still be up to them :p
Also anyone notice that... well, how could they have said DDOS but mean people chat messaging them?
I think R1CH is dead on, they probably have other reasons for not releasing them, but they realized "oops, people would know that you can't DDOS from that information" and so tried to "correct" it to something more believable, which fails in my eyes.
Blizzard needs to insert a hotfix that allows players to go "YOU CAN'T SEE ME" mode such that any form of chat doesn't even filter through.
Like what many others have said before, trolls who are bent on doing this would probably brute force their way through all the possible char codes and still chat spam the players.
Give the people what they want god damn it! I Hope JP will bring some sense to you people(mlg).. getting mlg replays casted by some random youtube caster who have basic understandings for the game is so bad..
2 streams at the same time, open and losers brackets unstreamed and even lots of pool play unstreamed. Really, your tournament model demands replays. Do what you have to do to release the replays, you do have options:
1) Edit the replays
2) Get new accounts for every season (ask Blizzard or something...) and post replays at monday.
3) Asks Blizzard to do something either about the replays or the "do not disturb" status, if you see a problem, help Blizzard eliminate it, don't just avoid it like that, it's so frustrating o.O
4) Tell us the truth so we can accept it straight foward and stop getting mad about this decision that can be circunvented for your given "reasons" >.>
why dont you just release all the replays AFTER the event, instead of just giving it to casters. it would solve all these problems and that way you dont need to find casters to cast EVERY single game as well.
if you're worried about pple remembering their names and then doing these chat spam at the next event, well the time deterrent should be enough for most and the same pple who would bother to wait that long and do, will actually have an easier time finding their names from watching the vods or looking up sc2ranks its not that hard!
The basic reason MLG is stating that yes we know this doesn't solve a problem but it might block one way to cause one problem.
The issue I have with this is this isn't even the obvious way to go about causing this problem. It is much more likely for a trouble maker to get the needed information to cause a problem through other means.
If I was going to do this, even if replays were out already, I wouldn't be going about it via mining replays for information.
I think it is safe to say that there IS a way to completely protect players from this. Require that all players in pool play or championship bracket to use MLG provided accounts that are one use for that tournament. It would cost money, 36 accounts in total would be needed. Assuming there is no deal that MLG would get from blizzard, this would total to around 1,800 dollars (50 x 36 rough estimate).
Now that isn't chump change but it is not event breaking at the same time. It does solve the issue 100%. There would be no chance for any issue as the replays could be released after the event is concluded. There is ways to cover this cost even (increase player pass cost by 10 dollars, with over 150 players this would quickly cover the cost is a simple quick idea). This way would be even safer than a no reply system for an unlistable amount of ways.
You say that MLG events are already money hogs and that the sat trucks alone cost in the six figures. I am very willing to suggest, support, and even contribute to any donation based system that would accomplish this. I know that would sound ridiculous to some but I am very confident that we would see enough money to fund "protection" of the players that we love to watch in replays.
I am not saying throw money at a problem to make me happy here. I am look at what MLG is stating here:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas?
and
EDIT: And yes, I know you can find other ways to get to the same information. But I can't stop those. I can reduce risk on things I can control. Not taking those steps is negligent.
I beg, implore, and ask you to consider that there IS ways to 100% solve this problem. The way MLG is currently set on does not accomplish its set goal of preventing chat spam attacks and it does harm the established player base. In this saturated market of professional StarCraft 2 I can't help but question why MLG would remove one of its defining unique points that its loyal customers are used to taking advantage of.
I, and every fan with my desires, can completely understand a delayed release of replays for this event in order to leverage a small margin of safety for the event that is live right now. I choose NOT to purchase the next months GSL in order to buy my pass to watch this event. I will not make that choice again if MLG doesn't stand up for its loyal fan base in the future.
The MLG replays provide me a huge look into the metagame of the pro level but it does so for a very small section of time (the metagame of one weekend!) . The GSL does that over a longer time (one month) but with a less exact resource. The replays of MLG, while not (yet) a easy to equate part of your profit, are a huge part of the value that we your customers place in your event.
I have faith that MLG, mainly because it seems to be a for the gamer organization at heart, will find a solution to this. I just want it to be clear what it feels like to me, a loyal customer up through and including this event.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them.
Is editing replays (stripping chat for example) really against Blizzard ToS? I would have to dig through the ToS, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim this before. So many people do this, including Day9.
I checked the ToS. I'm guessing Lee is referring to this:
Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
I'm no lawyer, but I don't think replays are considered part of the game.
Replays are a part of the game. You need the game in order to watch replay files. Why? Because they want the files to be small so they can be shared easily. The reason the replay files are so small are because they contain the bare essential data of what happend that game. Any 3rd party program used to watch sc2 replay files would have to be nearly half the size of sc2 itself because the replay files are basically just telling the game to reconstruct exactly what happened that game. The files aren't anything similar to a standard mpeg.
What they could do is have someone record the replays and release them in mp4 format which then wouldn't be part of the game, but that would defeat the purpose the replay's design. They want it to be easily shared. So I kind of agree that giving the replay files to casters would be the best course of action right now because they would release a video version available to everyone via youtube. Although I don't think this is the best course of action in the long term because this still sucks for obvious reasons.
shocking decisions, i cannot not see why you cannot release the replays after the event... also how replays in anyway being able to cause harm toa running tournament???
The only infor u can get is the names, the identifiers are because of the countless other 50 online cups where u need to provide it
His reasoning is laughable, not releasing replays because there is information that can be used for DDOS attacks? Everyone can just look up the open bracket, find the account and spam it. There is no information in the replay that cant be found more easily somewhere else. Moreover chat spam does not even remotely influence game performance if you are in busy mode, this is an overly cautious, idiotic measure, that does nothing but hurt the fans.
sucks, it's hard enough to keep up with the metagame and use the latest exact builds when you play as often as i do (not much at all anymore due to irl friend loving LoL and me playing that with them) was hoping to get caught up on whats what after mlg but guess not, VODs just dont cuz it as good as replays for me. that plus i dont even know where to find the VODs
It took me 29 pages of keeping it in, but I'm RAGING right now!
Why oh why are you taking away our replays MLG?!?! We all used to love you for that, something that set you apart from GSL. No matter how small, it still made a difference. But now it's gone.
One can only hope you decide to release the replays. I know you'll read this MLG, do it for the fans.
Damn, I kind of imagine that to the casual fan this isn't an issue, so it probably isn't a big priority for MLG. Like they said, they have to make money. But for me, access to all the replays (especially of the Koreans) was basically the best thing about MLG
Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out.
we can monetize content
This is what stood out the most to me. If we only release the replays to the casters that work for us we can make more money. A more logical explanation than using replays to ddos players and/or the event.
Security comes first - I have no problem with that. However it is a sad moment for Sc2 - the major tournament starts to protect themselves. It is ok for me- if I watch 300 times the "German lady shaver advertisment" - every time I switch red/blue channels but - if they say they lose money with every event then this is a problem long term because I doubt that the numbers of sc2 followers will go up - nor will they see money for any services from the existing fan base.
I appreciate the statement from MLG - but if they release 1 week later the replays - that should be save, isnt it ? or is that a problem for the next MLG? I think this is a Blizz issue that they have to solve ASAP not the new blue flame icon!
3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them.
this happens all the time - ever see one of those SC2rep messages in some high-level replay? Obviously Idra's not typing that ingame!
That said, will you be releasing the replays AFTER the event? Since the tourney will be complete, none of your security worries will be valid anymore.....
Still a pretty bogus thing to do, guess that means yet another person not giving a damn about this newest MLG....
All of this is about the money. They realised that they gain nothing if they give replays to the fans but potentially will make money by doing something else with replays. And they wouldn't do this if there is potential fans retribution, cos they know now that they got the fans for their balls and they can do anything from now on...
This is what stood out the most to me. If we only release the replays to the casters that work for us we can make more money. A more logical explanation than using replays to ddos players and/or the event.
On July 30 2011 17:40 Mesha wrote: All of this is about the money. They realised that they gain nothing if they give replays to the fans but potentially will make money by doing something else with replays. And they wouldn't do this if there is potential fans retribution, cos they know now that they got the fans for their balls and they can do anything from now on...
Wow, this is seriously pathetic. If they're actually keeping content from the fans so they can sell it, and saying its for 'security' reasons... Well it is the U.S.
Hmmm, this certainly does suck for fans, a great part of my anticipation for this MLG was being able to get my hands on the replays to analyse play in more depth than can be done just from VoD's. =/
Of course no-one at this stage doesn't know the full story, so there's no point in making rash judgements based on MLG being greedy, I just hope in the future there can be a compromise at least, I believe the replays are a huge part of the "package" that is the MLG events!
I'm so glad to see all the Matches from Tyler from the open bracket! Oh wait.. I will never have the Chance to, unless one commentator maybe casts one of the sets, fantastic.
Seriously, there is no reason not to release the replays after the event, I can understand that you won't release them during it, but after, cmon!
On July 30 2011 19:03 Cripp wrote: I'm so glad to see all the Matches from Tyler from the open bracket! Oh wait.. I will never have the Chance to, unless one commentator maybe casts one of the sets, fantastic.
Seriously, there is no reason not to release the replays after the event, I can understand that you won't release them during it, but after, cmon!
Of course theres a reason. A very good one. To "monetize" the replays.
On July 30 2011 19:05 nkwd wrote: No replay => watch VOD => pay for membership+more pv/uv for the website. Simple story, right?
Thats not it, they said they will be given to casters and made available for free anyway.
I am really disappointed, even if they switched to vods I would still be sad, its much harder to analyze a build order from a vod than it is from a replay, and I barely ever watch vods because they waste my bandwidth cap... I love looking at progamer replays for new builds, and MLG was the best source.
I sincerely hope they change their mind and release the replays after the event is finished.
Yesterday I read the "[MLG] Pro Circuit: Anaheim - Giant Steps" Article. Today I see a giant step into the wrong direction. I am very frustated about this decision and it takes a lot of the events value for me.
calling bullshit/do not support on this. people who are trollish enough to take it to this level are persistent enough to find a replay of people from past MLG's, other events, or just randomly posted ladder games. THERE IS NOTHING MLG CAN DO TO STOP PEOPLE FROM GETTING REPS OF HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS. just nothing. it's not fucking possible.
prove it to me that you can't go on a sc2 replay site using known names listed on the MLG player list and find replays you could only find at MLG, and i would concede that this move makes any difference at all. if it can't be done at all or without incredible amounts of time spent, then all this does is make the tournament worse by a lot. A LOOOT
maybe in some cases it's different, but i pretty much feel about this, how i feel about DRM and piracy. you're making your legitimate supporters seriously pissed off for a protective measure that is incredibly fragile to a persistent, knowledgable person
Why are we making a big deal about replays not being released by an event? GSL does not release replays (unless its a very special occasion) and i've never seen anyone make mention of it. Just because MLG used to do it and now doesn't anymore is an issue?
Be glad that they've released what they have, they had absolutely no obligation to release replays ever.
On July 30 2011 19:20 m2e wrote: Why are we making a big deal about replays not being released by an event? GSL does not release replays (unless its a very special occasion) and i've never seen anyone make mention of it. Just because MLG used to do it and now doesn't anymore is an issue?
Be glad that they've released what they have, they had absolutely no obligation to release replays ever.
I hope MLG will upgrade their VODs to some like GSL. Cuz now we cant watch specific games :<
Theres a bunch of reasons why replays shouldn't be released. And FXO have also stopped releasing replays for these reasons.
1) Other people profiting from an event that someone else forks money out for ... Its unacceptable in business. 2) Players being uncomfortable having replays en mass handed out to the general public (small problem)
These are the two main reasons I see for not providing replays. But VODS should always be provided. And as the industry grows, the amount of 'free stuff' is going to disappear because of the costs involved.
On July 30 2011 19:32 FXOpen wrote: Theres a bunch of reasons why replays shouldn't be released. And FXO have also stopped releasing replays for these reasons.
1) Other people profiting from an event that someone else forks money out for ... Its unacceptable in business. 2) Players being uncomfortable having replays en mass handed out to the general public (small problem)
These are the two main reasons I see for not providing replays. But VODS should always be provided. And as the industry grows, the amount of 'free stuff' is going to disappear because of the costs involved.
I 100% support MLG in the non release of replays.
I'd agree with you except they don't broadcast 90% of their games, so they are not even prepared to showcase the product themselves, why should they care if someone wants to recast it? You don't see anyone complaining about gsl because you can get nice vods of every single game.
I am biased in this because I don't like vods and prefer replays due to my shitty australian internet, but atleast the GSL provides you with a means of accessing the content, this is essentially saying nobody will ever see a large number of the games played. Whats the point of a tournament if you can't watch the games? If they get someone to cast every single replay I'll eat my words, but somehow I doubt it will happen, thats a LOT of games.
On July 30 2011 14:52 Oktyabr wrote: Blizzard needs to insert a hotfix that allows players to go "YOU CAN'T SEE ME" mode such that any form of chat doesn't even filter through.
Like what many others have said before, trolls who are bent on doing this would probably brute force their way through all the possible char codes and still chat spam the players.
? What would this do?
/dnd already does pretty much everything you could ever want... ( If only they would add it to bnet 2.0 like their previous bnet 1.0 games had... chat commands were pretty cool back then...) blocks all messages completely + you can't go back and read them either even if you wanted to
or they could just add "LAN" support for the game? also further reduces latency ( and no one could message them )
1) Other people profiting from an event that someone else forks money out for ... Its unacceptable in business.
Good idea, lets deny a service that fans dearly love, because it'd be awful if someone else made a couple of dollars. Yeah, lets fuck over thousands of fans instead, that 20$ that one commentator made from casting MLG replays on his youtube is RUINING ESPORTS I normally have a lot of respect for you and whatever you post Boss but this is just...
On July 30 2011 19:32 FXOpen wrote: Theres a bunch of reasons why replays shouldn't be released. And FXO have also stopped releasing replays for these reasons.
1) Other people profiting from an event that someone else forks money out for ... Its unacceptable in business. 2) Players being uncomfortable having replays en mass handed out to the general public (small problem)
These are the two main reasons I see for not providing replays. But VODS should always be provided. And as the industry grows, the amount of 'free stuff' is going to disappear because of the costs involved.
I 100% support MLG in the non release of replays.
I'd agree with you except they don't broadcast 90% of their games, so they are not even prepared to showcase the product themselves, why should they care if someone wants to recast it? You don't see anyone complaining about gsl because you can get nice vods of every single game.
I am biased in this because I don't like vods and prefer replays due to my shitty australian internet, but atleast the GSL provides you with a means of accessing the content, this is essentially saying nobody will ever see a large number of the games played. Whats the point of a tournament if you can't watch the games? If they get someone to cast every single replay I'll eat my words, but somehow I doubt it will happen, thats a LOT of games.
They should probably get the casters to cast the replays. Which it seems they are doing something similar so in the end the games will be seen... I think the actual top16 format is thething that needs to change.
I don't really care why they aren't releasing them. But this is enough for me to completely lose interest and I will not be buying a pass specifically because of this.
This is an awful awful move. You're going to prevent people from getting access to high level replays which are in very high demand, making a large amount of your audience angry because you want to prevent some chat spam? Is this April 1st?
i think it is completely stupid to do that, for the obvious reason that if a troll was really dedicated to annoying you and ruining your event, he WOULD FIND THE PLAYER'S ACCOUNTS no matter what. to prevent a way of doing so, you penalize the whole community. so basically, the hackers have succeeded right ? since because of them, none of us will get the replays. it makes just no sense at all.
On July 30 2011 19:57 Angry_Fetus wrote: This is an awful awful move. You're going to prevent people from getting access to high level replays which are in very high demand, making a large amount of your audience angry because you want to prevent some chat spam? Is this April 1st?
On July 30 2011 19:57 Angry_Fetus wrote: This is an awful awful move. You're going to prevent people from getting access to high level replays which are in very high demand, making a large amount of your audience angry because you want to prevent some chat spam? Is this April 1st?
Do you honestly believe thats the reason? rofl.
Did you honestly not read the OP? rofl.
EDIT: DDOS is a poor choice of words in our release. Chat spam on the game clients which lags the game is what was meant.
If you're referring to the scenario where this is just a money grab, then that is irrelevant, as I'm addressing their reasoning. Thanks for coming out though, appreciate it.
1) Other people profiting from an event that someone else forks money out for ... Its unacceptable in business.
Good idea, lets deny a service that fans dearly love, because it'd be awful if someone else made a couple of dollars. Yeah, lets fuck over thousands of fans instead, that 20$ that one commentator made from casting MLG replays on his youtube is RUINING ESPORTS I normally have a lot of respect for you and whatever you post Boss but this is just...
I appreciate your point of view, I really do.
But one thing that I have always been a true believer in is, you have to spend money to make money. Those who dont spend money in order to make money, generally do not have the interests of their chosen field at heart, and and in it for the money only.
The thousands of fans will get the VODS casted by selected casters from my understanding, which means that things are being done in a more business and less communal manner (sustainability).
Although it is a bit sad to not have free easy access to every single game (I soooooooooooooooooo want to see the slog v qxc games, but probably never will). I can understand exactly the point of this, and am moving that way myself, providing VOD access instead of replay access.
Eventually I think they will change their format so that more games are played/casted I think. Which then this discussion will probably never be remembered. Just right now they are packing so many games into 2 days that it makes it feel like we are missing out.
1) Other people profiting from an event that someone else forks money out for ... Its unacceptable in business.
Good idea, lets deny a service that fans dearly love, because it'd be awful if someone else made a couple of dollars. Yeah, lets fuck over thousands of fans instead, that 20$ that one commentator made from casting MLG replays on his youtube is RUINING ESPORTS I normally have a lot of respect for you and whatever you post Boss but this is just...
I appreciate your point of view, I really do.
But one thing that I have always been a true believer in is, you have to spend money to make money. Those who dont spend money in order to make money, generally do not have the interests of their chosen field at heart, and and in it for the money only.
The thousands of fans will get the VODS casted by selected casters from my understanding, which means that things are being done in a more business and less communal manner (sustainability).
Although it is a bit sad to not have free easy access to every single game (I soooooooooooooooooo want to see the slog v qxc games, but probably never will). I can understand exactly the point of this, and am moving that way myself, providing VOD access instead of replay access.
Eventually I think they will change their format so that more games are played/casted I think. Which then this discussion will probably never be remembered. Just right now they are packing so many games into 2 days that it makes it feel like we are missing out.
I suppose you're right. MLG isnt the 'bad guy' for looking out for themselves, but I still feel (and this thread shows) that they'll lose at least some viewers and fans because of this. Availability of tournament replays was one of the advantages that sc2 had over BW, and now thats gone too. Hopefully TL/DH dont decide to do this too.
On July 30 2011 20:07 Angry_Fetus wrote: If you're referring to the scenario where this is just a money grab, then that is irrelevant, as I'm addressing their reasoning. Thanks for coming out though, appreciate it.
Its not that clear that you were addressing the reasoning, but thanks for clarifying, my mistake
I think they are just jealous that the casters make a few bucks of their replays. But I think they don't see that the youtube casters did a big part to help starcraft where it is know. And I feel like it's a waste of money if they wanna pay the casters to cast every single game played in the open bracket (we probably wont have the chance to see them )
Anyway I dont like where this is going, because strategy wise you you miss so much if you watch a cast and don't look at the replay.
God bless w3's waaghtv, those were great times, simultaniously listening to a cast but controlling the camera yourself, that was good stuff =)
On July 30 2011 20:21 FXOpen wrote: When they have a libarary of VODS they will win the viewers and fans back...
Some of these games will be always better casted...
Not if you want to learn from them.
You can learn from VODS..... Most of the pros learn from GSL Vods etc.
Timing is there as there is the game clock, and usually the ingame camera is on everything significant.. Note the word "usually". Sometimes a bad cameraman can screw it up.
But this is now the fork in the road for the industry, whether it becomes completely professional, or whether it continues to be "just fun". And I think MLG are taking the right steps in this sense. Although there are other things they probably should have focussed on first.
Alot of false entitlement in this thread sadly, MLG is hosting the tournament so they can do with the replays what they want, and if they decide to sell replays in the end you're not obligated to buy them either and you can boycot MLG by not watching the tournament
All this "my replays me me me me" is making me sick
browsing in the full game lists of the players, i personally think it would take me 10 mins to find the account of ANY PLAYER in this tournament, and i'm convinced of this. why don't they tell us the real reason behind this?
On July 30 2011 20:24 hjkim1304 wrote: I actually agree with this decision o.O though im sad that i won't be able to see the replays
Sorry but... Why?
On July 30 2011 20:32 reki- wrote: Alot of false entitlement in this thread sadly, MLG is hosting the tournament so they can do with the replays what they want, and if they decide to sell replays in the end you're not obligated to buy them either and you can boycot MLG by not watching the tournament
All this "my replays me me me me" is making me sick
What? They're not selling the reps at all. I'm sure getting reps along with paying for the subscription thing would be reasonable...
I read MLG's clarification in the OP's edit. Only one of them addresses the solution proposed in this thread to release the replays after MLG is over, and that is the 'we have to monetize to make up for the costs'. I respectfully propose to MLG to rethink their business decision. Either offer the replays for free and win popularity with your clients as well as publicity, or sell the replays pack. Going with the choice to release the replays to selected casters, who will cast selected matches and post VODs seems to me like getting the worst of both worlds. People want to see the replays. There is demand. Capitalize on it by giving people what they want, either for free, or the ability to purchase it.
Well let's see... Games were played during 2AM - 9AM here so I couldn't watch them. Now I have to pay if I want to see the VoDs and replays won't be released. Looks like I won't see a single game from MLG Anaheim ... was so hyped for it ...
im really disappointed with this, was looking forward to replays of dongraegu i also dont understand what the problem with releasing the replays to the public afterwards is.
Well this absolutely sucks. The release of replay packs from each event was one of my most favorite things about MLG. It was a great way to get replays from so many top players to analyze and learn from their play.
On July 30 2011 20:21 FXOpen wrote: When they have a libarary of VODS they will win the viewers and fans back...
Some of these games will be always better casted...
''W e'' ''W a n t'' ''R e p l a y S'' got it?
you don't need replays,GSL doesn't offer them,are you upset that they don't?
I'll be fine with just VODs.
Ill be fine with vods if they work. But the reasons they are giving for not allowing access to replays are imo pure crap. If you put enough time in you can discover a character code from a player and spam them if thats their main worry well its pointless to worry about it :/
Not like the players dont have replays out there in general. And its not like MLG buys EVERYONE a NEW account for every MLG and then doesnt provide replays :/
so mere mortals wont see much, i am not into studying replays but they wont release them anyway, even after it is done, and i wont/cant pay for pass, so yeah. terrible.
On July 30 2011 20:21 FXOpen wrote: When they have a libarary of VODS they will win the viewers and fans back...
Some of these games will be always better casted...
''W e'' ''W a n t'' ''R e p l a y S'' got it?
you don't need replays,GSL doesn't offer them,are you upset that they don't?
I'll be fine with just VODs.
You dont really play, a lot of other people do and want to improve their game. Quite a few people look forward to mlg because of the replays, it's one of the features that set mlg apart from other tourneys.
Besides that some people prefer watching replays to vods, where you can control the camera and speed things up, or watch in first person view. There are some really good games in the open bracket that might not be casted.
On July 30 2011 20:21 FXOpen wrote: When they have a libarary of VODS they will win the viewers and fans back...
Some of these games will be always better casted...
''W e'' ''W a n t'' ''R e p l a y S'' got it?
you don't need replays,GSL doesn't offer them,are you upset that they don't?
I'll be fine with just VODs.
You dont really play, a lot of other people do and want to improve their game. Quite a few people look forward to mlg because of the replays, it's one of the features that set mlg apart from other tourneys.
Besides that some people prefer watching replays to vods, where you can control the camera and speed things up, or watch in first person view. There are some really good games in the open bracket that might not be casted.
how the hell did you get yourself those replays? No need to be like the hacker group anonymous simply because you can't get what you want.
OP did state the reason, whether we like it or not, they have the authority to make the call. They will suffer from less viewers if anyone really are so against the idea of not releasing any replay, not through a form like this.
come on, I thought this community is better than this
how the hell did you get yourself those replays? No need to be like the hacker group anonymous simply because you can't get what you want.
OP did state the reason, whether we like it or not, they have the authority to make the call. They will suffer from less viewers if anyone really are so against the idea of not releasing any replay, not through a form like this.
come on, I thought this community is better than this
how the hell did you get yourself those replays? No need to be like the hacker group anonymous simply because you can't get what you want.
OP did state the reason, whether we like it or not, they have the authority to make the call. They will suffer from less viewers if anyone really are so against the idea of not releasing any replay, not through a form like this.
come on, I thought this community is better than this
Nice to see you accuse someone of hacking for no reason. you're really a great member of this community you seem to value so highly.
There is a reason I stopped watching vods from youtube and am listening only to gsl or some big tournament casters. Guess now I have to sacrifice fun in order to learn something ( like listening to gretorp ot nasl.. what a pain ) and only if the caster decides to point things out (praying for that ). Good thing is that protoss is probably not going to dominate at this MLG which for once is a good thing cause I'm not gonna miss a lot of strategies. Thanks MLG for not inviting good protosses at least so nothing is missed (sorry Huk but since you are in group with DRG you can't be 1st in your group which means near impossible to win the tournament ). MLG replays was going to be the best learning tool but now the best is going to be watching livestreams ( good thing Sase is streaming )
I'm so incredibly disappointed that they decided to not release the replays :-\. i was really looking forward to seeing the strats that tyler was using in the open bracket. Just about the biggest thing I loved about MLG was the fact that I had a ton of replays after the weekend was over to enjoy. What they say makes sense especially after the clarification. (DDOS from a replay confused me at first) But this still sucks big time.
On July 30 2011 23:32 winthrop wrote: i prefer no release for replays since GSL did not release
Yeah, this is a great point.
While they're at it, MLG should consider changing their bracket system as single-elimination as it is obviously better. They could also consider breaking their tournament into 2 separate tournaments that occur over a month, one could be like a qualifier for the larger tournament which would be for a huge prize.
I mean, since GSL is so superior; why shouldn't MLG exactly replicate it?
great job ToD. i hope MLG takes that release as a little FU you guys are being pansies for holding out on the community thats been serving you all this time. shame on you MLG for doing this to the fans
This is slightly disappointing but I guess MLG has its grievances and I accept their reasons. However, I hope those "select casters" will do justice to the best of the open bracket.
That said, it surely is awesome to have a folder full of pro replays from Dallas and Columbus.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them.
Is editing replays (stripping chat for example) really against Blizzard ToS? I would have to dig through the ToS, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim this before. So many people do this, including Day9.
I checked the ToS. I'm guessing Lee is referring to this:
Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
I'm no lawyer, but I don't think replays are considered part of the game.
Replays are a part of the game. You need the game in order to watch replay files.
By this logic, custom maps are part of the game, so you can't make/edit those. You also need the game in order to input your actions, i.e. play it, so I myself must be part of the game too. (half joking, but you get the point)
By "part of the game" I take it to mean files that are essential to running sc2. A replay is more like a Word document, which is clearly not part of Microsoft Word.
Edit: I also just realized I payed $10 for VODs that are low quality. More reason to want the replays. (but definitely not the only reason)
After watching a few ToDs replays i am even more sad, because of the new devilLG money making policy. The games are fucking spectacular! Great! And i bet there are many many more good game replays we can't get.
ToDs anti 4 gate build is beautiful. All the best players in one place. Players play their best - performance and builds. No replays cos MLG managers can now afford not to provide replays to fans. Sad but true. But what can you do. If you dont like the no replays policy dont support them or watch mlg...
If people boycotted buying their pass until they put out the replays maybe we'll get the replays because theyll realize they are losing money by this move. I sure as hell won't be buying anymore passes and I'm sure there are free alternative ways to get the VODs if I looked hard enough.
On July 31 2011 01:15 Catgrooving wrote: If people boycotted buying their pass until they put out the replays maybe we'll get the replays because theyll realize they are losing money by this move. I sure as hell won't be buying anymore passes and I'm sure there are free alternative ways to get the VODs if I looked hard enough.
On July 30 2011 20:21 FXOpen wrote: When they have a libarary of VODS they will win the viewers and fans back...
Some of these games will be always better casted...
''W e'' ''W a n t'' ''R e p l a y S'' got it?
you don't need replays,GSL doesn't offer them,are you upset that they don't?
I'll be fine with just VODs.
OH waaait All the GSL games are casted, and MLG games are not!!!
Not giving replays to the community is freaking annoying. I can understand them not releasing them during the event, but why the hell not after the event - hell release them after a month but atleast give the wider audience chance to watch the games and analyze their favorite players on their own!
On July 31 2011 01:15 Catgrooving wrote: If people boycotted buying their pass until they put out the replays maybe we'll get the replays because theyll realize they are losing money by this move. I sure as hell won't be buying anymore passes and I'm sure there are free alternative ways to get the VODs if I looked hard enough.
Boycotting is not always the answer.
What do you propose then? Getting to Anaheim and physically forcing the staff to hand over the replays?
Man, this is dumb. I don't want to have to listen to DAY 9's 2 hr long commentary on a 15 minute game... Though he is very excellent at breaking down what he does, it's not practical for when I want to simply look something up... ... ... ...
I'm kinda pissed that I already spent money buying gold membership, because I THOUGHT that I would get the replays.
I am really sad about this. We are supporting SC2 by watching the streams and commercials. Many of us are even buying the passes. This event is suppost to be an event for the pros AND for the comunity. Since we are not even able to see many of our favorite players perform on the stage. Not providing the replays means, we will miss the perfromances of many players. This is really sad and watching the VODs a couple of weeks after the event is really not the same feeling. Especially after so terrible MLGs like Dallas, where we where supporting the event even though they had so many difficulties. This is really a step in the wrong direction. Not even taking into account that for many Europeans, which have to stay up all night and still might miss some of the games, they are not really able to follow such a nice Esports event with the new policy. I am really sad, but from now on this was my last MLG. Hope they will understand, that improving Esports only works with the fans and community and not without them.
I don't get why they wont release replays? Ploy to get people to buy their hd pass? From what i heard their vod system is utter crap, worse then nasl (which i hated). like 90% of the matches aren't broadcasted and i have to wait till people like hdstarcraft/totalbiscut/husky get the replay packs? I don't even listen to most commentary, the only people i can bare is tastosis.
First we accept koreans to our tournements now we secretly adopt their philosphy of no releasing replays?
I would pay 30 bucks for a year worth of replay packs, but vods where you can only see the first minute of the match?(i hope this was fixed and my point isn't valid on vods anymore)
Now the only time i get pro replays will be dreamhack, long live dreamhack!
This is definitely a big slap in the face right after dangling the prize pool increase over everyones head if they sell 100,000 passes or whatever it was. Honestly, decisions like these and not being able to have my 2 HD streams open makes me want to say fuck a prize pool increase. The games are great, but honestly half of MLG for me has always been studying the replays and analyzing them, then maybe trying some shit out on ladder.
hope dreamhack and IEM will still release their replays, as a gamer its much more enjoyable to study the games by urself instead of relying on the casters camera movement.
The more that I think about this the more annoying it is. It's not so bad that they're trying to make some money off of their replays.
But nobody likes a liar. Its clear now that the DDoS thing is kind of stupid, now that I looked up what that actually is. They should just be honest that they need to make more money instead of trying to make it seem like they're doing it for security reasons.
Ed: It would still be annoying but at least it wouldn't be insulting lol
It's such a huge shame since MLG is where lots of amazing new strats by Koreans are showcased, especially this one with the new ZvT playstyle of Slayers Terrans. DRG replays are also sick of course, and MVP.
I'm seeing a lack on logical consistency on MLG's part. Lee first says:
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: EDIT: And yes, I know you can find other ways to get to the same information. But I can't stop those. I can reduce risk on things I can control. Not taking those steps is negligent.
and then:
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
First, if MLG's legal representation is suggesting that MLG must completely reduce the risk on things within its control, it's time for MLG to fire the TTT lawyers it must have working in house and retain the services of a real law firm.
Second, even IF that were true (which it's not) and MLG won't release them after the event because of fear of pushing the risk to the next event (and presumably fear of liability for its "negligent" actions), then why are the replays from columbus and dallas still online and available? Many of the players in Anaheim (and presumably Raleigh, etc) played in those tournaments, with the same Battle.net account. If they're worried about a theory of liability through negligence, and simply releasing replays establishes said negligence, then all those previous replays, which are still up, are sufficient to prove that negligence.
I'm afraid it looks like the ONLY reason to not release the replays then is for the aforementioned monetization. MLG recognized they had a valuable commodity that they were just giving away and are now seeking to capitalize more fully on that content. To be sure, I have no problem with businesses making these types of decisions, but I also think the market (read community) should show its disapproval, if any. Much like Redbox, after gaining significant market share, raised its $1 price to $2 per DVD, MLG is seeking to increase profits. I only hope that, similar to the market reaction to Redbox's price increase, the SC2 community will vote with its wallet and forego contributing money to MLG until they resume distributing replays for free.
mlg have a heart? They fucking ask for more subs and then say fuck you fans, we'd like more money regardless. Every time i read the response in the Op i get more and more pissed. Trying to pass it off as something related to security is absolutely disgusting though. Really hope dh doesnt adopt this money grubbing tactic. Entirely lost the huge amount of respect i gained for the mlg staff i've seen in shows like sotg
It is really difficult to blame MLG for this, at least when you think about it logically. They are not responsible for the conditions that make it necessary to withhold the replays.
1. If none of us, the community, spammed the players like tools, this would not be a problem. 2. If battle.net had LAN support, this would not be a problem. 3. If battle.net had an adequate setting for blocking spam, this would not be a problem. 4. If blizzard did not make it possible to find character codes from replays, this would not be a problem.
MLG understandably wants to do everything it can to avoid any form of internet problems after all the shit we gave them last time. Hell, I bet they would still be releasing the replays even with the possibility of being spammed if everybody didn't jump down their throats last time (that was different internet problems and it was their fault, but it is easy to see how it would make them paranoid about any type of lag).
On July 31 2011 03:09 Gelenn wrote: It is really difficult to blame MLG for this, at least when you think about it logically. They are not responsible for the conditions that make it necessary to withhold the replays.
1. If none of us, the community, spammed the players like tools, this would not be a problem. 2. If battle.net had LAN support, this would not be a problem. 3. If battle.net had an adequate setting for blocking spam, this would not be a problem. 4. If blizzard did not make it possible to find character codes from replays, this would not be a problem.
MLG understandably wants to do everything it can to avoid any form of internet problems after all the shit we gave them last time. Hell, I bet they would still be releasing the replays even with the possibility of being spammed if everybody didn't jump down their throats last time (that was different internet problems and it was their fault, but it is easy to see how it would make them paranoid about any type of lag).
Reason 1 and 2 are so fun together.
1. If none of us, the community, pirated the games like tools, this would not be a problem. (LAN)
Anyway, you can't give up just because there are problems. If they think it is too troublesome to edit replays for us or ask Blizzard for new accounts every 2 months (new season) then I feel like it is also troublesome to support them just for a couple of vods or HD stream.
I wouldn't be pissed if they told us this decision 1 month ago or even 2 weeks ago. But they first sell the tickets then they tell people that now the service is worst than before (replays is more than half this tournament, open bracket is just too huge).
On July 31 2011 03:30 tl55555 wrote: i wonder how hard it would be to make a script to go through and replace the player ids with generic tournament ids
Easy. But now MLG_Lee is saying that editing replays is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I think he is referring to 2. E. + Show Spoiler +
Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
However, I do not think replays are intended in that statement, since they are not an actual part of the game (much like a Word document is not actually a part of MS Word).
It's always been seen as perfectly legitimate to strip chat from replays, etc. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone make the case that doing so is a violation of ToS.
On July 31 2011 03:30 tl55555 wrote: i wonder how hard it would be to make a script to go through and replace the player ids with generic tournament ids
Easy. But now MLG_Lee is saying that editing replays is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I think he is referring to 2. E. + Show Spoiler +
Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
However, I do not think replays are intended in that statement, since they are not an actual part of the game (much like a Word document is not actually a part of MS Word).
It's always been seen as perfectly legitimate to strip chat from replays, etc. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone make the case that doing so is a violation of ToS.
And I'm guessing you're a lawyer who specializes in matters such as these? If you're not why should your uninformed opinion mean anything w.r.t. appraising the legal validity of MLG_Lee's concerns?
I'm honestly a little disappointed with this decision made by MLG. I feel like that was a huge differential point between MLG and other famous tournaments around the world.
I really hope that MLG come back with replays for the next couple of tournaments, cause otherwise I won't have much of a reason to keep following it. Since the sound and quality of the stream are just horrible at anaheim.
Anyway, really wish the best of luck to MLG and really believe that they will step back on their decision.
On July 31 2011 03:30 tl55555 wrote: i wonder how hard it would be to make a script to go through and replace the player ids with generic tournament ids
Easy. But now MLG_Lee is saying that editing replays is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I think he is referring to 2. E. + Show Spoiler +
Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
However, I do not think replays are intended in that statement, since they are not an actual part of the game (much like a Word document is not actually a part of MS Word).
It's always been seen as perfectly legitimate to strip chat from replays, etc. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone make the case that doing so is a violation of ToS.
And I'm guessing you're a lawyer who specializes in matters such as these? If you're not why should your uninformed opinion mean anything w.r.t. appraising the legal validity of MLG_Lee's concerns?
If it helps, I'm a lawyer. I think there's a lot to be said for Zergoaster's arguments (although admittedly I've not researched these types of terms in the appropriate jurisdictions). Even if the ToS did prevent, it would take all of 30 minutes to draft a letter to Blizzard to get approval, and considering the amount of money Blizzard stands to gain from eSports gaining more popularity, I find it unlikely that they would decline to allow an exemption.
On July 31 2011 03:30 tl55555 wrote: i wonder how hard it would be to make a script to go through and replace the player ids with generic tournament ids
Easy. But now MLG_Lee is saying that editing replays is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I think he is referring to 2. E. + Show Spoiler +
Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
However, I do not think replays are intended in that statement, since they are not an actual part of the game (much like a Word document is not actually a part of MS Word).
It's always been seen as perfectly legitimate to strip chat from replays, etc. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone make the case that doing so is a violation of ToS.
And I'm guessing you're a lawyer who specializes in matters such as these? If you're not why should your uninformed opinion mean anything w.r.t. appraising the legal validity of MLG_Lee's concerns?
I'm not a lawyer, and do not claim to specialize at all. I'm just bringing up the question, not laying down the law. (Note, I said "I do not think", I did not make absolute statements, since I am not sure at all.)
I'm just curious. Which is why I'm going to post the question on the Blizzard forums.
On July 31 2011 03:09 Gelenn wrote: It is really difficult to blame MLG for this, at least when you think about it logically. They are not responsible for the conditions that make it necessary to withhold the replays.
1. If none of us, the community, spammed the players like tools, this would not be a problem. 2. If battle.net had LAN support, this would not be a problem. 3. If battle.net had an adequate setting for blocking spam, this would not be a problem. 4. If blizzard did not make it possible to find character codes from replays, this would not be a problem.
MLG understandably wants to do everything it can to avoid any form of internet problems after all the shit we gave them last time. Hell, I bet they would still be releasing the replays even with the possibility of being spammed if everybody didn't jump down their throats last time (that was different internet problems and it was their fault, but it is easy to see how it would make them paranoid about any type of lag).
Reason 1 and 2 are so fun together.
1. If none of us, the community, pirated the games like tools, this would not be a problem. (LAN)
Anyway, you can't give up just because there are problems. If they think it is too troublesome to edit replays for us or ask Blizzard for new accounts every 2 months (new season) then I feel like it is also troublesome to support them just for a couple of vods or HD stream.
I wouldn't be pissed if they told us this decision 1 month ago or even 2 weeks ago. But they first sell the tickets then they tell people that now the service is worst than before (replays is more than half this tournament, open bracket is just too huge).
Haha, yeah, it really does all go back to part of the community being tools. Your second point is also understandable from my point of view (expecting replays as part of the subscription but not receiving them). It really is a shitty situation all around.
If MLG truly cares about E-Sports they'll release the replays because this is going to delay the metagame if professional players who were not at MLG cannot analyze these replays.
i understand some of the concerns, however personally, i hate the change, i was looking forward to casting the games after the fact, which i can't do now since i highly doubt ill be one of the select few comentators to get a replay pack.
semi off topic, won't most of the concerns be fixed if blizzard implements a lan mode?
On July 31 2011 03:56 Gamegene wrote: If MLG truly cares about E-Sports they'll release the replays because this is going to delay the metagame if professional players who were not at MLG cannot analyze these replays.
On July 31 2011 03:30 tl55555 wrote: i wonder how hard it would be to make a script to go through and replace the player ids with generic tournament ids
Easy. But now MLG_Lee is saying that editing replays is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I think he is referring to 2. E. + Show Spoiler +
Modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
However, I do not think replays are intended in that statement, since they are not an actual part of the game (much like a Word document is not actually a part of MS Word).
It's always been seen as perfectly legitimate to strip chat from replays, etc. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone make the case that doing so is a violation of ToS.
The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors.
Replays are owned by Blizzard, and modifying them is a violation of TOS. MLG_Lee is completely correct.
While I absolutely hate throwing the "hurting e-sports" phrase around, Blizzard seriously needs to correct this problem. Tournaments and organizers are being thrown into extremely awkward situations due to lack of LAN support.
Are people seriously pissed off about not getting replays?
My god people DO complain about absolutely everything these days. I could care less whether the replays are released or not cause I don't take this game nearly that serious, and most of you guys shouldn't either.
A lot of what I'm seeing here is "OMGWTFBBQ I CAN"T WATCH THE PRO REPLAYS AND COPY ALL THEIR TIMINGS AND BUILDS!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
Just play the game for fun, and learn shit yourself. The games are available in VOD form and live (at least a lot of the really good ones) and don't feel as though you as a random person watching a stream have any entitlement to have ultimate access to every single match played in the convention center.
The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors.
Replays are owned by Blizzard, and modifying them is a violation of TOS. MLG_Lee is completely correct.
Good catch. I was looking at the end user licence agreement, which didn't have this.
Yeah it sucks, theres some korean replays I wanted to steal but chill the fuck out guys. GSL, NASL has anything else released replays? I'm surprised MLG ever did in the first place.
Give a kid a lollipop and take it away they will cry I guess though =/
On July 31 2011 04:19 CurLy[] wrote: Yeah it sucks, theres some korean replays I wanted to steal but chill the fuck out guys. GSL, NASL has anything else released replays? I'm surprised MLG ever did in the first place.
Give a kid a lollipop and take it away they will cry I guess though =/
GSL and NASL never gave bizarre reasons. Even if MLG's esoteric reasons are actually true, they would have been much better off to say "We want to control the rights to all our content, so we will no longer be releasing replays. Sorry."
It's just basic PR. Give the public a thread, and they will unravel the sweater.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas? 2) This has nothing to do with GSL or Korean players wanting to be protected on the replays. That was a point of discussion and all LXP players understand that MLG has the right to release the replays anytime we want to. 3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them. 4) The issues around this are not just technical, they're also rules based. Yes, we could require in the rules that every player sets busy (already the case) and opens six chats. But then what do you do if someone forgets and lags? Is it fair to allow a restart? or should we call them on a technical? We don't make these decisions lightly. 5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number. 6) Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
This step is being taken to protect the operations of the event. Replays are not going to be released at this event. When we have some more time to consider things and think through ALL the issues, we'll re-evaluate. But this is not a decision that we'll revisit here. We know how valuable this is to the community and we definitively listen to the community, I think we've proven that.
I appreciate constructive criticism and the satire is worth a good laugh too.
Bear in mind that at GotFrag (of which I was a founder and prez), we hosted .dem (replays for Counter-Strike) for every match we could find at every event. They're still available there. I know exactly how much we all love having access to the replays. And I know this is an unpopular decision with much of the community.
But see above for the straight scoop on why we're doing this.
EDIT: DDOS is a poor choice of words in our release. Chat spam on the game clients which lags the game is what was meant. EDIT: And yes, I know you can find other ways to get to the same information. But I can't stop those. I can reduce risk on things I can control. Not taking those steps is negligent.
i am sorry, but this is not an answer. are you seriously telling me that if some guy wants to fuck up your tournament with bots and spamming players, he will rather download replays, figure out how to get the accounts out of them then spamm them, or he will just browse through the game listings of the players for 5 mins, make himself a friendlist with all the guys at the tournament then start his business? you are basically trying to close chimney with your door open...considering the fact that there are no GM players, it's even easier to just add everyone... and more importantly you are making us all pay for the stupidity of a few, that you don't even prevent in the first place with your solution. if that was only a facade reason not to allow replays to be released, fine, now tell us the real reasons. you know, we know that santa doesn't exist, we aren't 3 years old, at least we could discuss the real reasons behind this. if you were sincere about the hacking thing, then i just proved you that it's inefficient, and wont solve anything, so please go back on your decision, it's not too late, you might even win some fans...
The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors.
Replays are owned by Blizzard, and modifying them is a violation of TOS. MLG_Lee is completely correct.
Good catch. I was looking at the end user licence agreement, which didn't have this.
MLG Lee is still incorrect. Blizzard wants to promote e-sports and they will support such things. This is obvious. You can't take a piece of paper (or digital document) as the truth ignoring everything else that is necessary to make it "illegal", Blizzard won't sue 100% guaranteed. If you are that worried, ask for permission, it's simple.
The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors.
Replays are owned by Blizzard, and modifying them is a violation of TOS. MLG_Lee is completely correct.
Good catch. I was looking at the end user licence agreement, which didn't have this.
MLG Lee is still incorrect. Blizzard wants to promote e-sports and they will support such things. This is obvious. You can't take a piece of paper (or digital document) as the truth ignoring everything else that is necessary to make it "illegal", Blizzard won't sue 100% guaranteed. If you are that worried, ask for permission, it's simple.
On July 31 2011 04:16 N3rV[Green] wrote: Are people seriously pissed off about not getting replays?
My god people DO complain about absolutely everything these days. I could care less whether the replays are released or not cause I don't take this game nearly that serious, and most of you guys shouldn't either.
A lot of what I'm seeing here is "OMGWTFBBQ I CAN"T WATCH THE PRO REPLAYS AND COPY ALL THEIR TIMINGS AND BUILDS!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
Just play the game for fun, and learn shit yourself. The games are available in VOD form and live (at least a lot of the really good ones) and don't feel as though you as a random person watching a stream have any entitlement to have ultimate access to every single match played in the convention center.
Don't tell other people how seriously they should take things.
In your terms, I guess, your argument amounts to-- "IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME SO IT SHOULDN'T MATTER TO ANYONE ELSE EITHER LOLOL"
Which is a very immature view and annoying to even read. The real reason that people are pissed about this isn't really that they took the replays away. It's that they tried to obscure their motives. MLG basically needs to sack up and be honest with us.
It's one thing to rip on casters, stages, interviews and all that kind of shit. I think that's stupid. But if I'm being lied to I'm going to complain about it.
^ yes if the excuse was legit i wouldnt be so mad. the excuse is doubtful at best and we can see that with holding the replays isnt helping the spam on the games at all. so why are they punishing the fans? give me a legit reason and i will support it. otherwise i will continue to rage
On July 31 2011 04:16 N3rV[Green] wrote: Are people seriously pissed off about not getting replays?
My god people DO complain about absolutely everything these days. I could care less whether the replays are released or not cause I don't take this game nearly that serious, and most of you guys shouldn't either.
A lot of what I'm seeing here is "OMGWTFBBQ I CAN"T WATCH THE PRO REPLAYS AND COPY ALL THEIR TIMINGS AND BUILDS!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
Just play the game for fun, and learn shit yourself. The games are available in VOD form and live (at least a lot of the really good ones) and don't feel as though you as a random person watching a stream have any entitlement to have ultimate access to every single match played in the convention center.
nobody cares about ur opinion, go back to consoles and your 12 y/o friends
On July 31 2011 04:16 N3rV[Green] wrote: Are people seriously pissed off about not getting replays?
My god people DO complain about absolutely everything these days. I could care less whether the replays are released or not cause I don't take this game nearly that serious, and most of you guys shouldn't either.
A lot of what I'm seeing here is "OMGWTFBBQ I CAN"T WATCH THE PRO REPLAYS AND COPY ALL THEIR TIMINGS AND BUILDS!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
Just play the game for fun, and learn shit yourself. The games are available in VOD form and live (at least a lot of the really good ones) and don't feel as though you as a random person watching a stream have any entitlement to have ultimate access to every single match played in the convention center.
It's quite surprising to me that you have over 1000 posts and don't understand how people can take this game that serious.
also, as someone on TL, you should realize that people love this game because of how competitive it is. I have fun being competitive, so don't act like this isn't a big deal jsut cause you don't give a shit.
On July 31 2011 04:16 N3rV[Green] wrote: Are people seriously pissed off about not getting replays?
My god people DO complain about absolutely everything these days. I could care less whether the replays are released or not cause I don't take this game nearly that serious, and most of you guys shouldn't either.
A lot of what I'm seeing here is "OMGWTFBBQ I CAN"T WATCH THE PRO REPLAYS AND COPY ALL THEIR TIMINGS AND BUILDS!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
Just play the game for fun, and learn shit yourself. The games are available in VOD form and live (at least a lot of the really good ones) and don't feel as though you as a random person watching a stream have any entitlement to have ultimate access to every single match played in the convention center.
Are people seriously pissed off about not getting replays?
My god people DO complain about absolutely everything these days. I could care less whether the replays are released or not cause I don't take this game nearly that serious, and most of you guys shouldn't either.
A lot of what I'm seeing here is "OMGWTFBBQ I CAN"T WATCH THE PRO REPLAYS AND COPY ALL THEIR TIMINGS AND BUILDS!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
Just play the game for fun, and learn shit yourself. The games are available in VOD form and live (at least a lot of the really good ones) and don't feel as though you as a random person watching a stream have any entitlement to have ultimate access to every single match played in the convention center.
Why the hell would you need to shit on people who have the passion to actually learn and improve and watch the games and evolution of thier favourite players? If I got to to watch MVP play with KiwiKaki and see how the direction he was going in tvp, a matchup that he struggles with I would be ecstatic. Part of what made MLG so great was that you could always go back later and explore a side of the tournament you didnt get to see before. There are events that don't show you every single game, and there are TONS of them at MLG.
Alot of QQ was because something that was offered before is no longer available and people arent satisfied with having it taken away from them. People are still spamming inane bullshit towards casters and players regardless of the replay release, so we do not agree with the decision behind restricting replay release.
to everyone who is saying you're going to cancel your subs: why do you watch nasl or gsl if they don't offer their replays?
GSL and NASL both offer VODS of ALL the games they play, something that mlg only does for the streamed games. NASL also offers replays of the qualifer and the open bracket tournament for download.
I understand if they want to try to make an extra buck with not releasing the replays so more people will watch VODS etc. And i am completely fine with it to support E-sports and what not. Though just say so (the reasons given, seem quite implausible)
On the same note: i am slightly annoyed because MLG releasing their replays is partially why i thought the event was so amazing and different from the others. We already have NASL and GSL not releasing replays, so to grab some pro-replays from MLG always felt like christmas to me. So its a shame they announced it, and i really sincerely hope they reconsider.
Another big part why i think replays are essential for MLG, is MLGs format. So many games go unnoticed now. I used to watch all the replays of previous MLGs of my favorite players even in lower brackets. However now i have the feeling 75% of the tournament goes past me without ever witnessing the games which is a damn shame. NASL and GSL at least cast all their games so we dont have to miss anything.
ps. im a caster, ill cast the games, gimme replays + Show Spoiler +
On July 31 2011 04:16 N3rV[Green] wrote: Are people seriously pissed off about not getting replays?
My god people DO complain about absolutely everything these days. I could care less whether the replays are released or not cause I don't take this game nearly that serious, and most of you guys shouldn't either.
A lot of what I'm seeing here is "OMGWTFBBQ I CAN"T WATCH THE PRO REPLAYS AND COPY ALL THEIR TIMINGS AND BUILDS!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
Just play the game for fun, and learn shit yourself. The games are available in VOD form and live (at least a lot of the really good ones) and don't feel as though you as a random person watching a stream have any entitlement to have ultimate access to every single match played in the convention center.
And your complaining about us complaining so you're kinda contradicting yourself there.
On July 31 2011 05:49 Butcherski wrote: Hello, from today untill the next MLG i will be bruteforcing every account of every player that got into the pools and got out of the open brackets. It will take me few minutes every day ( about the same time as watching 1-2 replays ) and a week before the event i will post it wherever i can including 4chan/tl/reddit and sending it to the various community troll like combat ex and deezer. I will also make sure that they will be used several times through the event.
You may ask yourself why would i bother ? The same reason that 4chan took down the ubisoft servers when they introduced the draconian DRM for assassins creed. Everytime a company introduces a harsh DRM system the game is sure to end up on the top of most pirated games. This is a very similiar situation you created. Your actions hurt the overwhelming majority while doing NOTHING to actually prevent the problem you have.
As you will know in a few weeks if someone is really set upon messing up your event they can do it JUST AS EASY without any replays. Your actions only hurt the consumers ( both paying and those on the edge ).
Get your act together and make the players have 6 open chat windows and release replays after the event.
This is 100% the wrong way to handle this. Please be more of a man than a child.
It seems to me that MLG is the one acting like a child, deceiving and outright lying to the community in order to sell replays to casters.
On July 31 2011 05:49 Butcherski wrote: Hello, from today untill the next MLG i will be bruteforcing every account of every player that got into the pools and got out of the open brackets. It will take me few minutes every day ( about the same time as watching 1-2 replays ) and a week before the event i will post it wherever i can including 4chan/tl/reddit and sending it to the various community troll like combat ex and deezer. I will also make sure that they will be used several times through the event.
You may ask yourself why would i bother ? The same reason that 4chan took down the ubisoft servers when they introduced the draconian DRM for assassins creed. Everytime a company introduces a harsh DRM system the game is sure to end up on the top of most pirated games. This is a very similiar situation you created. Your actions hurt the overwhelming majority while doing NOTHING to actually prevent the problem you have.
As you will know in a few weeks if someone is really set upon messing up your event they can do it JUST AS EASY without any replays. Your actions only hurt the consumers ( both paying and those on the edge ).
Get your act together and make the players have 6 open chat windows and release replays after the event.
This is 100% the wrong way to handle this. Please be more of a man than a child.
It seems to me that MLG is the one acting like a child, deceiving and outright lying to the community in order to sell replays to casters.
On July 31 2011 05:49 Butcherski wrote: Hello, from today untill the next MLG i will be bruteforcing every account of every player that got into the pools and got out of the open brackets. It will take me few minutes every day ( about the same time as watching 1-2 replays ) and a week before the event i will post it wherever i can including 4chan/tl/reddit and sending it to the various community troll like combat ex and deezer. I will also make sure that they will be used several times through the event.
You may ask yourself why would i bother ? The same reason that 4chan took down the ubisoft servers when they introduced the draconian DRM for assassins creed. Everytime a company introduces a harsh DRM system the game is sure to end up on the top of most pirated games. This is a very similiar situation you created. Your actions hurt the overwhelming majority while doing NOTHING to actually prevent the problem you have.
As you will know in a few weeks if someone is really set upon messing up your event they can do it JUST AS EASY without any replays. Your actions only hurt the consumers ( both paying and those on the edge ).
Get your act together and make the players have 6 open chat windows and release replays after the event.
This is 100% the wrong way to handle this. Please be more of a man than a child.
It seems to me that MLG is the one acting like a child, deceiving and outright lying to the community in order to sell replays to casters.
I agree. I also think that advocating e-terrorism in order to make things "right" sounds like one of the worst ways to right this wrong.
If you look at the number and size of my posts in this thread, you will quickly see that I am one of the more angry ones about this. I am not going to buy another MLG stream pass again if this comes to be. I will actively tell all of my sc friends to do the same. I will promote the GSL and NASL as better products as they give you a much broader scope of games because they are over time. The replays of MLG are what made it fun and valuable to me and many others.
I still think it is just disgusting to go and use a wrong that not only hurts MLG, but hurts players.
I skipped from the first page to this last page and I'm absolutely disgusted by how this thread has become. MLG has done nothing but good for the community and the entire Starcraft scene. Some of you TL-ers honestly have nothing to do other than sit on your computer and complain at every little thing under the veil of anonymity. I'm ashamed to be part of the same community as you guys.
On July 31 2011 06:22 Jtn wrote: I skipped from the first page to this last page and I'm absolutely disgusted by how this thread has become. MLG has done nothing but good for the community and the entire Starcraft scene. Some of you TL-ers honestly have nothing to do other than sit on your computer and complain at every little thing under the veil of anonymity. I'm ashamed to be part of the same community as you guys.
On the Internet, everyone is quick to assume the worst from everyone else. It's interesting how forum anonymity reveals your true colors.
On July 31 2011 06:22 Jtn wrote: I skipped from the first page to this last page and I'm absolutely disgusted by how this thread has become. MLG has done nothing but good for the community and the entire Starcraft scene. Some of you TL-ers honestly have nothing to do other than sit on your computer and complain at every little thing under the veil of anonymity. I'm ashamed to be part of the same community as you guys.
thanks for telling us how you feel...based on 2/37 pages of posts. Not a great sample size to make such sweeping accusations, but we'll let it slide.
On July 31 2011 06:22 Jtn wrote: I skipped from the first page to this last page and I'm absolutely disgusted by how this thread has become. MLG has done nothing but good for the community and the entire Starcraft scene. Some of you TL-ers honestly have nothing to do other than sit on your computer and complain at every little thing under the veil of anonymity. I'm ashamed to be part of the same community as you guys.
Just because they do good things for starcraft 2 does not mean people have to praise their every action. They are not doing it out of the kindness of their heart. They are a business and their primary motive is to make money. We are the customers and they should be interested in our feedback, in this case because they are trying to solve a problem with an ineffective solution, which ultimately punishes the fans.
On July 31 2011 06:22 Jtn wrote: I skipped from the first page to this last page and I'm absolutely disgusted by how this thread has become. MLG has done nothing but good for the community and the entire Starcraft scene. Some of you TL-ers honestly have nothing to do other than sit on your computer and complain at every little thing under the veil of anonymity. I'm ashamed to be part of the same community as you guys.
Complaining about things is how we, the customers, let MLG know that they have done something that we don't like.
On July 31 2011 06:22 Jtn wrote: I skipped from the first page to this last page and I'm absolutely disgusted by how this thread has become. MLG has done nothing but good for the community and the entire Starcraft scene. Some of you TL-ers honestly have nothing to do other than sit on your computer and complain at every little thing under the veil of anonymity. I'm ashamed to be part of the same community as you guys.
Just because they do good things for starcraft 2 does not mean people have to praise their every action. They are not doing it out of the kindness of their heart. They are a business and their primary motive is to make money. We are the customers and they should be interested in our feedback, in this case because they are trying to solve a problem with an ineffective solution, which ultimately punishes the fans.
totally agree with this statement, they are what they are because of the community.
Im sure that if there is any way they can release the replays they will, and im pretty sure that wont happen untill the tourney is finished. Also being angry at them for this is pretty silly, since they cant even say what exactly the issue is.
On July 31 2011 06:45 TheAwesomeAll wrote: Im sure that if there is any way they can release the replays they will, and im pretty sure that wont happen untill the tourney is finished. Also being angry at them for this is pretty silly, since they cant even say what exactly the issue is.
Lee said he could edit the replays and the problem would be solved. So he said there is a solution that we would love, he is just not doing it! because Blizzard could sue them!! (really???)
We demand a good excuse/reason or replays, we are not that bad, we give options...
On July 31 2011 06:45 TheAwesomeAll wrote: Im sure that if there is any way they can release the replays they will, and im pretty sure that wont happen untill the tourney is finished. Also being angry at them for this is pretty silly, since they cant even say what exactly the issue is.
Lee said he could edit the replays and the problem would be solved. So he said there is a solution that we would love, he is just not doing it! because Blizzard could sue them!! (really???)
We demand a good excuse/reason or replays, we are not that bad, we give options...
This is kinda ridiculous, its not like they're playing with accounts that are only used for MLG games, people are playing on their personal accounts, any info that can be phished from MLG replays is also widely available for 90%+ of players...
The reasoning from MLG simply does not make any sense. Are they trying to tell us that there is harm in releasing replays to the public? What kind of harm or danger is there exactly??? If there is, then this should be Blizzard's concern and not MLG. If there was some potential harm, then we wouldn't be able to save replays from ladder games, custom games, or ANYTHING.
Fine, if they want to be like GSL and not distribute replays ok. But provide better streams or vods to the fans. GOMTV has excellent VOD quality. And I already payed for a gold membership which is useless. THAT'S WHAT I'M PISSED ABOUT!
On July 31 2011 06:15 Frek wrote: It seems to me that MLG is the one acting like a child, deceiving and outright lying to the community in order to sell replays to casters.
Do you have any evidence what-so-ever that this is the case at all? It would certainly be the first time I've ever heard of replays being sold to a caster in the entire history of SC2.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
People need to stop freaking out.
On July 31 2011 07:35 rave[wcr] wrote: i like the E-Terrorism idea. go terrorize those MLG people until they release the replays!
On July 31 2011 06:15 Frek wrote: It seems to me that MLG is the one acting like a child, deceiving and outright lying to the community in order to sell replays to casters.
Do you have any evidence what-so-ever that this is the case at all? It would certainly be the first time I've ever heard of replays being sold to a caster in the entire history of SC2.
The evidence is the explanation given in the OP is patently ridiculous.
Crucially:
EDIT: And yes, I know you can find other ways to get to the same information. But I can't stop those. I can reduce risk on things I can control. Not taking those steps is negligent.
This is more than ridiculous, its false, except when viewed entirely in a vacuum. If all that is necessary is bruteforcing 3 digits to acquire the relevant information, removing a separate method, even if its significantly easier, will do between nothing and almost nothing to the occurrence of whatever it is that Lee is worried about.
More to the point: he can stop the other ways. He can hold the entire tournament from replays, he can provide new accounts for every game, or whatever. There do exist options, but he ignores them because they are obviously untenable for other reasons.
Crucially, one of those reasons is that spectators would be pissed. The "e-terrorism" (rofl) mentioned above demonstrates that this is true in this case as well, while at the same time demonstrating the absurdity of Lee's primary argument.
All of this argument applies only if replays provide no information that cannot be bruteforced - but if they do, we need proof of this. Its not sufficient to say "we wont release that because then people might do it" when you just removed the vector by which it can be done.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
took long enough to get that out of you
you could have said that from the beginning and it wouldn't have been a problem....not having replays sucks, but most are more upset about the half-truths that were told and being given the runaround
"no replays because we're turning them into VODs for premium content"......boom easy....not "omg ddos attacks....no wait... chat spam....no wait...what was the first thing i said?"
still some people would be upset sure.....but please don't treat us as fools
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
You would have done better imo to just say this in your initial release about your decision to not release replays.
"we're not going to be releasing replays because we need/want to make more money by only releasing them to casters we like and trust and putting ads on the vods."
more reasonable and believable than
"...replay packs contain data which can be used to DDOS the player- and the event."
Either way I don't like not having access to the replays but at least your latest response makes sense. Even though I don't like it I do understand that MLG is a business and needs to make money in order to stay in business.
For me as a fan it is just so sad no beeing able to watch the games of my favorite players. Just imagine u are watching the soccer world cup and all the fans from all the countries want to cheer for their team. But then they say that they will only show one quarter final on tv and the fans from the remaining 6 teams are not able to watch their team perform. And after the world cup is over, they will show the other 3 quarter finals on tv. Who would ever want to watch the games a couple of weeks after the tournament? Beeing able to watch the games, that could not be shown on the stream, at the same day was the only thing that made MLG the coolest event. Just watching 10 games on the stream, even containing match ups I don't want to see is just not the MLG I used to like watching. Either show all the games on stream or release the replays.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
you're only responding to people with the dumbest comments. No one logical thinks you're selling replays to casters, however the only reason you've given for why you can't release them after the event is because these players use the same accounts.
I've read interviews where MLG has stated problems with spam and them asking blizzard for smurf accounts. why does that all of a sudden not work? and if that was for some reason invalidly posted in interviews, then why couldn't that be the solution?
But you probably won't respond to me because I'm a logical person asking reasonable questions.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
You would have done better imo to just say this in your initial release about your decision to not release replays.
"we're not going to be releasing replays because we need/want to make more money by only releasing them to casters we like and trust and putting ads on the vods."
more reasonable and believable than
"...replay packs contain data which can be used to DDOS the player- and the event."
Either way I don't like not having access to the replays but at least your latest response makes sense. Even though I don't like it I do understand that MLG is a business and needs to make money in order to stay in business.
So basically the DDoS comments were a lie and all just a lame excuse to cover up the fact that MLG wanted to make more money than just saying they wanted more money to begin with =/
then we just go full circle again, if they said that they wanted to make more money outright. then we would cross into the other thread about the prize pool being terrible and sundance wanting to cut it if MLG doesnt get more subs... =/
The vods will probably be terrible and weeks after the event as well.. and only cover a select few games, and not cover every game from the open bracket.... If you cover every game im supportive of the idea, if not im not a fan of this idea at all...
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
If this is the reason for not releasing replays, that's fine, but I think trying to hide behind a faux security issue is what's riling everyone up.
don't blindly believe all that you hear... it's usually about $$ anyways since it is a business like any other business, it's purpose is to generate revenue
Solution is in the OP anyways... busy+6channels and it's quoted from r1ch in the OP
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
If this is the reason for not releasing replays, that's fine, but I think trying to hide behind a faux security issue is what's riling everyone up.
Except there really is a security issue and R1CH himself commented that it seems legit after talking to Lee privately. (page 22)
It's also been confirmed that Blizzard is aware of it and will fix it. MLG will revisit the issue after that's done to determine if they'll release replays in the future. So regardless there's no hiding behind a "faux security issue" because it's a legit concern therefor no reason for anyone to be riled up by it.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
If this is the reason for not releasing replays, that's fine, but I think trying to hide behind a faux security issue is what's riling everyone up.
Nothing about what he said discredits his original reason of the security issue; only distributing replays to trusted casters implies they won't fall into the hands of those who will abuse the information within them.
There is so much distrust and sensationalism in this thread. I could care less why they chose to withhold replays, but the people "100% obviously concluding" that everything Lee's said means it's simply MLG pocket cash need to get off their high horse.
i think this was really poorly managed by mlg - first they post about how they're worried about ddos attacks, which anyone with any idea about anything knows is just categorically untrue. when called out on that, they change it to being worried about people spamming the players which:
a. is preventable by just going dnd, something that even stuff like tl opens require players to do b. isn't affected by the release of replays anyway, despite lee's mysterious comments to the contrary
then they post about how they want to create ad revenue by releasing the replays only to certain casters to produce. personally i think this really sucks because replays were one of my favorite parts of mlg, but at least this reason makes a little bit of sense. next time just say this straight up, guys.
On July 30 2011 08:56 R1CH wrote: Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event.
How about releasing them after the event? Does erring on absolute caution apply after the event as well?
Nice to have your input and thoughts on this. Thanks.
well thats all fine...if the vods are put up I mean I don't need a replay to get a build i can infer timings on a vod...but here's the question, will there be vods?
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
took long enough to get that out of you
you could have said that from the beginning and it wouldn't have been a problem....not having replays sucks, but most are more upset about the half-truths that were told and being given the runaround
"no replays because we're turning them into VODs for premium content"......boom easy....not "omg ddos attacks....no wait... chat spam....no wait...what was the first thing i said?"
still some people would be upset sure.....but please don't treat us as fools
When I read the OP, I thought it was quite clear that they were handing it over to popular casters without any fee. Didn't really see how someone could misinterpret that. I guess a lot of people have to be crystal clear, heh.
On July 31 2011 08:46 rycho wrote: i think this was really poorly managed by mlg - first they post about how they're worried about ddos attacks, which anyone with any idea about anything knows is just categorically untrue. when called out on that, they change it to being worried about people spamming the players which:
a. is preventable by just going dnd, something that even stuff like tl opens require players to do b. isn't affected by the release of replays anyway, despite lee's mysterious comments to the contrary
then they post about how they want to create ad revenue by releasing the replays only to certain casters to produce. personally i think this really sucks because replays were one of my favorite parts of mlg, but at least this reason makes a little bit of sense. next time just say this straight up, guys.
Spamming players is like a ddos attack. How else would you describe it? There is no dnd. only busy. Most players arent even aware of 6 channels and busy so enforcing it the day before mlg would be impossible. Ninja rule changes that can actually cost players with dqs is alot worse than just breaking a promise with viewers. That way mlg can say they attempted to preserve the spirit of competition after the mass dqs last event for noshows. MLG should of announced this earlier but whatever. What is done is done and mlg remains THE event to watch.
On July 31 2011 08:39 xBillehx wrote:Except there really is a security issue and R1CH himself commented that it seems legit after talking to Lee privately. (page 22)
It's also been confirmed that Blizzard is aware of it and will fix it. MLG will revisit the issue after that's done to determine if they'll release replays in the future. So regardless there's no hiding behind a "faux security issue" because it's a legit concern therefor no reason for anyone to be riled up by it.
R1CH said:
"Lee has given me his reasoning in private, but I don't have enough information to know if it's technically valid or not. Erring on absolute caution, I can see why they don't want to release replays during the event."
The reasoning is chat spam (or as MLG Lee called it 'DDOS'). MLG even made a highlight reel of chat spam and it continues to today, so it's obvious that not releasing the replays has had 0 impact on it. So even if there is some way to extract character codes through a B.Net loophole it has had 0 actual impact on prevention. (Also, it's an exploit that no one has actually discovered for a year except a MLG admin? Seems unlikely) I mean, there's all sorts of other details too, including that MLG has already released literally hundreds of replays in the past and that cannot be undone.
This makes me very sad, because I am very busy this weekend so I'm going to miss at least 75% of the matches. I'm about to watch my first match so far, Kiwi vs Moonan which is on right now... I will force my schedule around the finals though!!! I NEED to watch the finals.
I was looking forward to VODs so excitingly... UGH!!!!
This is my second post in this thread...and must say just thinking about this is still making me feel sick to my stomach in disappointment of this choice. I hope MLG reconsiders their stance on this.
While it's a bummer that MLG won't be releasing replays, advocating e-terrorism is just disgusting.
Downloadable replays were my favourite part about MLG events, it's a shame they decided to do take that option away, but ultimately it's their decision. I'm just glad I decided to wait and see how Anaheim goes before purchasing a membership.
On July 31 2011 09:13 wellAdjusted wrote: As a paying customer, I want replays, not VODs.
As a paying customer, I don't really care either way.
I can see people accepting MLGs reasoning, and living with it. But how could you not care either way? Didn't you have fun downloading the replays and looking at all the little things missed in the casts? Or watching the matches from the player cam? Maybe I'm being a dork, but I found it quite magical and will definitely miss it.
On July 30 2011 11:41 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, the same players come to all our events. So releasing replays after the event AT THIS POINT, WITHOUT FURTHER TECHNICAL INVESTIGATION, is just moving the risk to the next event.
Every pro gamer at MLG has replays released. This is a silly response man. Please respect the internet more than THAT because a determined troll can bypass this step extremely easily.
This move by MLG is punishing the fans more than anything. It does not prevent this style of attack on the event.
This point remains to be touched upon. I think everyone can agree that not releasing replays live during the event is a good idea. But not releasing afterwards because the same players will be at future MLGs? If someone plans in advance to harass specific players, they can find replays of any pro player online with 0 effort. This won't deter them or 'reduce risk' in any way.
This is punishing 99.99% of your loyal fans to try and stop the 0.01% who are going to do this crap one way or the other. The 'monetizing content' angle is the only one that makes sense, which is dissapointing if that's the case.
On July 31 2011 09:13 wellAdjusted wrote: As a paying customer, I want replays, not VODs.
As a paying customer, I don't really care either way.
I can see people accepting MLGs reasoning, and living with it. But how could you not care either way? Didn't you have fun downloading the replays and looking at all the little things missed in the casts? Or watching the matches from the player cam? Maybe I'm being a dork, but I found it quite magical and will definitely miss it.
I don't care because I download and watch replays. But that's just me.
Of course there are others who do like to and for them, this is probably an important issue.
Obviously pretty disappointed, but major tournaments providing replays is a privilege (paid or otherwise), not a right. Whenever the public is given access to top Korean replays it's special bonus.
Being a terran player, I'm going to miss MVP and the SlayerS' terran replays the most. Being able to those reps is an invaluable learning experience. Providing the reps to some YouTube commentators with no game knowledge or insight is not a substitute.
Man I really hate when someone chooses to lie to me about something I don't care about, something that doesn't matter, or something that I would have been fine with if they had just told me the honest truth. If you don't want to release replays I'm fine with that, but you didn't have to lie about it.
On July 31 2011 11:05 starcraft911 wrote: Man I really hate when someone chooses to lie to me about something I don't care about, something that doesn't matter, or something that I would have been fine with if they had just told me the honest truth. If you don't want to release replays I'm fine with that, but you didn't have to lie about it.
it's not just that they lied about it, it's that they think we're stupid enough to not ask the most simple question ever.
I want the replays and I find MLG's defense extremely questionable. Its so transparent its actually insulting.
The security concerns are completely alleviated by releasing the replays after the event. If the players are spammed after the event while playing at home that is not MLG's fault. It is clearly Blizzards fault. Every single player who has their games casted already recieve messages all the time, their BNet IDs were bruteforced long ago. So arguing that you wish to prevent security concerns is nothing short of bullshit.
The number of people who may not buy a HD pass because replays are not available FAR outweighs the number of people who would not buy a HD pass even if replays were available. This is evidenced by the fact that the announcement came after the event had started. Again, trying to argue to the contrary on this is pure bullshit.
The Koreans don't want the replays released, and you cant directly monetize the replays for MLG. The truth shall set you free.
The solution is to make first person VODs of each player with the production tab left open!
Doesn't need commentary or anything. Its not an ideal situation, but it is a compromise. It gets around the reasons they have listed for not releasing the replays, and it would at least partially satisfy the majority of the player base. They could even make them only available to paying members and therefore make money off it.
On July 31 2011 14:09 TenthGear wrote: The solution is to make first person VODs of each player with the production tab left open!
Doesn't need commentary or anything. Its not an ideal situation, but it is a compromise. It gets around the reasons they have listed for not releasing the replays, and it would at least partially satisfy the majority of the player base. They could even make them only available to paying members and therefore make money off it.
I agree with you totally editing the replays is a better fix. But they said:
"3) Modifying replay files (not reading them) is a violation of Blizzard's ToS. I maybe could get permission to do it, but there's a lot of legal issues tied up in that. We already know how to do it. But we'd have to check them all before releasing them."
Hence I was thinking for other options, realistically they probably just don't want to release them because some players don't want their reps released and they won't make money off it either way. Sad day for the fans.
On July 31 2011 14:09 TenthGear wrote: The solution is to make first person VODs of each player with the production tab left open!
Doesn't need commentary or anything. Its not an ideal situation, but it is a compromise. It gets around the reasons they have listed for not releasing the replays, and it would at least partially satisfy the majority of the player base. They could even make them only available to paying members and therefore make money off it.
this might actually work. but i still hate you MLG for taking away these replays. IMMvp vs DongRaeGu on champ bracket and ill never get to analyze it on my own.
Meh, not as big of a deal as everybody is making it. I don't see people whine about GSL/NASL/etc replays. Sure, replays are nice, but they were an unusual (yet great) feature in the first place.
On July 31 2011 09:07 bucckevin wrote: I'm very late to the party but this is just MLG's lame attempt to sell more VOD passes.
Replays > VODS.
its an issue with chat spam, blizzard is looking into it and we might get replays regardless. There is no reason to presume they are some evel organization haunting for our money.
On July 31 2011 14:09 TenthGear wrote: The solution is to make first person VODs of each player with the production tab left open!
Doesn't need commentary or anything. Its not an ideal situation, but it is a compromise. It gets around the reasons they have listed for not releasing the replays, and it would at least partially satisfy the majority of the player base. They could even make them only available to paying members and therefore make money off it.
This would be a VERY good compromise.
Seconding this. I'd imagine it'd be fairly easy to do, though the uploading of all of those could be a nightmare.
On July 31 2011 14:09 TenthGear wrote: The solution is to make first person VODs of each player with the production tab left open!
Doesn't need commentary or anything. Its not an ideal situation, but it is a compromise. It gets around the reasons they have listed for not releasing the replays, and it would at least partially satisfy the majority of the player base. They could even make them only available to paying members and therefore make money off it.
This would be a VERY good compromise.
Seconding this. I'd imagine it'd be fairly easy to do, though the uploading of all of those could be a nightmare.
Laughing so hard over here. Even with no commenting doing this for all replays would be astronomically expensive.
It's also still a lot worse than just getting the actual replays.
On July 31 2011 04:16 N3rV[Green] wrote:My god people DO complain about absolutely everything these days. I could care less whether the replays are released or not cause I don't take this game nearly that serious, and most of you guys shouldn't either.[*Editor's note: No reasoning supplied, apart from a detailing of one's own desires and level of interest in replays]
Yep, your subjective perspective and desires are superior to all other's. * Classic egomaniac.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
...so, again, they confirm they won't release replays solely to sell more HQ passes?
At least they haven't stooped to the level of showing ads mid-game! (prays this doesn't give them any ideas...)
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
...so, again, they confirm they won't release replays solely to sell more HQ passes?
At least they haven't stooped to the level of showing ads mid-game! (prays this doesn't give them any ideas...)
You're finding it difficult to comprehend the very basic English that he used. Re-read what he said.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
...so, again, they confirm they won't release replays solely to sell more HQ passes?
At least they haven't stooped to the level of showing ads mid-game! (prays this doesn't give them any ideas...)
You're finding it difficult to comprehend the very basic English that he used. Re-read what he said.
Please stop being so hateful. It's destroying my vibes man.
On topic, I'm very sad that MLG is retracting their replays. I will never again have the chance to steal players' builds. I think that it's doing much more bad than good, but who am I to tell a guy who has pros feeding him what they want and don't want. I'm very sad and wish they could bring it back though. MLG has a reputation of being fucking awesome coming to fan feedback, so I have high hopes for a revival of the replay tradition.
On July 31 2011 14:24 aksfjh wrote: Meh, not as big of a deal as everybody is making it. I don't see people whine about GSL/NASL/etc replays. Sure, replays are nice, but they were an unusual (yet great) feature in the first place.
GSL NASL
THEY CASTED ALL THE GAME
BUT WE MISS A TON OF GAME IN MLG (openbracket etc.)
On July 31 2011 14:24 aksfjh wrote: Meh, not as big of a deal as everybody is making it. I don't see people whine about GSL/NASL/etc replays. Sure, replays are nice, but they were an unusual (yet great) feature in the first place.
GSL NASL
THEY CASTED ALL THE GAME
BUT WE MISS A TON OF GAME IN MLG (openbracket etc.)
MLG is held over one weekend whereas GSL and NASL both took >1 month to finish. Also, I'm sure none, if any, of the Code A qualifiers were broadcasted. I think the only equivalent would be Dreamhack, but even they didn't cast the BYOC tournament.
MLG does something very minor and now people get mad at them? They are not doing this for money in the first place, they are doing it for a smoother MLG/Player experience. Everyone here who is getting mad at MLG is basically saying, "I want this, but they won't let me have it, they are therefore evil." This is what kindergarten children think. You have plenty of other places to get replays from if you want to analyze a pro. MLG was really the only tourny to actually release replays, now they don't. That doesn't make them an evil monster it just means they changed something. If you are going to get mad at MLG for not having replays, then go harass NASL, GSL, DH, etc to release theirs. I bet you they will give you almost the exact same answer as MLG now, it is for the players protection.
On July 31 2011 16:33 graph1k wrote: MLG does something very minor and now people get mad at them? They are not doing this for money in the first place, they are doing it for a smoother MLG/Player experience. Everyone here who is getting mad at MLG is basically saying, "I want this, but they won't let me have it, they are therefore evil." This is what kindergarten children think. You have plenty of other places to get replays from if you want to analyze a pro. MLG was really the only tourny to actually release replays, now they don't. That doesn't make them an evil monster it just means they changed something. If you are going to get mad at MLG for not having replays, then go harass NASL, GSL, DH, etc to release theirs. I bet you they will give you almost the exact same answer as MLG now, it is for the players protection.
You obviously haven't read the thread have you.
There are better ways to deal with the spam issue. Why punish the fans when there are alternatives?
On July 31 2011 14:24 aksfjh wrote: Meh, not as big of a deal as everybody is making it. I don't see people whine about GSL/NASL/etc replays. Sure, replays are nice, but they were an unusual (yet great) feature in the first place.
GSL NASL
THEY CASTED ALL THE GAME
BUT WE MISS A TON OF GAME IN MLG (openbracket etc.)
MLG is held over one weekend whereas GSL and NASL both took >1 month to finish. Also, I'm sure none, if any, of the Code A qualifiers were broadcasted. I think the only equivalent would be Dreamhack, but even they didn't cast the BYOC tournament.
Code A qualifiers is not really comparable at all. Dreamhack was pretty impressive in that it casted pretty much every match in the group stage onward (a lot more groups than MLG) since they had like 5 streams, oh and they also released all the replays. The BYOC at DH isn't as comparable to the open bracket at MLG either, since there are only 16 pool play spots at MLG. The open bracket becomes completely stacked with pros, at Dreamhack pretty much all the pros are seeded into the group stage, and there was a BYOC stream if you wanted to see it.
Anyways, he is right and the fact remains that in all of those tournaments it will possible to see every single match. After this announcement there are a lot of great matches that we will never get to see from the open bracket, since not everything will be casted even if they do hand out the replay pack to a few casters.
I really think MLG should reevaluate the reasoning behind why they are not releasing replays or come up with an alternative solution to circumvent the issues as to why they are not releasing the replays.
I actually cried for the first time in like 5 years when i saw this thread title...
obviously they don't cast all the games..or even close to all the games. So this simply means we will not ever see many of the games played at this tournament.....
On July 31 2011 16:33 graph1k wrote: MLG does something very minor and now people get mad at them? They are not doing this for money in the first place, they are doing it for a smoother MLG/Player experience. Everyone here who is getting mad at MLG is basically saying, "I want this, but they won't let me have it, they are therefore evil." This is what kindergarten children think. You have plenty of other places to get replays from if you want to analyze a pro. MLG was really the only tourny to actually release replays, now they don't. That doesn't make them an evil monster it just means they changed something. If you are going to get mad at MLG for not having replays, then go harass NASL, GSL, DH, etc to release theirs. I bet you they will give you almost the exact same answer as MLG now, it is for the players protection.
on all this events, we are able to see all games, on MLG we see only few of many games, thats why replays are that important on MLG.
I don't understand why they don't just release the replays after MLG is over. MLG has always released replays; it was one of my favorite things about the tournament.
This issue shouldnt be that divisive their is no reason they cannot release repays after the finals have ended
if they use championship(MLG accounts for champ bracket) accounts then they can purchase a name change or buy new accounts the cost of which would be a pittance. I know it would be stupid but seriously i would atleast be willing to pay 10-15$ to see cruncher and a couple other peoples open bracket replays. (did they even cast the slayers alica game vs. tod cause i really want to see that too.)
On July 31 2011 16:33 graph1k wrote: Everyone here who is getting mad at MLG is basically saying, "I want this, but they won't let me have it, they are therefore evil." This is what kindergarten children think. You have plenty of other places to get replays from if you want to analyze a pro. MLG was really the only tourny to actually release replays, now they don't. That doesn't make them an evil monster it just means they changed something. If you are going to get mad at MLG for not having replays, then go harass NASL, GSL, DH, etc to release theirs.
MLG has released replays repeatedly in the past with no problems. Why is the MLG Columbus replay pack not ruining Anaheim? Because it doesn't make a difference.
If someone was determined to spam a player, all they have to do is find a *single* person who played in the tournament, and follow the chain of Match History games to find any account they need. Finding BNet IDs through encoded replay data would be the hardest possible way to do it. That's part of why people are mad at MLG: they basically lied to us to justify not releasing them instead of being upfront about the "issue," which turns out to hardly be an issue at all.
Nobody thinks MLG is evil for this, just stupid. This was a valuable resource to a lot of players, and now suddenly it's been denied to them for no reason. You can say 'well GSL and NASL don't release them,' but they have monetary reasons not to, while MLG does not.
Imagine you stay at a hotel for several nights. One night, they take away your pillows, claiming that the risk of you smothering the staff and suffocating them is too high. Maybe once they develop suffocation-free pillows you can have them back, they say. Would you be pissed?
On July 31 2011 16:33 graph1k wrote: Everyone here who is getting mad at MLG is basically saying, "I want this, but they won't let me have it, they are therefore evil." This is what kindergarten children think. You have plenty of other places to get replays from if you want to analyze a pro. MLG was really the only tourny to actually release replays, now they don't. That doesn't make them an evil monster it just means they changed something. If you are going to get mad at MLG for not having replays, then go harass NASL, GSL, DH, etc to release theirs.
MLG has released replays repeatedly in the past with no problems. Why is the MLG Columbus replay pack not ruining Anaheim? Because it doesn't make a difference.
If someone was determined to spam a player, all they have to do is find a *single* person who played in the tournament, and follow the chain of Match History games to find any account they need. Finding BNet IDs through encoded replay data would be the hardest possible way to do it. That's part of why people are mad at MLG: they basically lied to us to justify not releasing them instead of being upfront about the "issue," which turns out to hardly be an issue at all.
Nobody thinks MLG is evil for this, just stupid. This was a valuable resource to a lot of players, and now suddenly it's been denied to them for no reason. You can say 'well GSL and NASL don't release them,' but they have monetary reasons not to, while MLG does not.
Imagine you stay at a hotel for several nights. One night, they take away your pillows, claiming that the risk of you smothering the staff and suffocating them is too high. Maybe once they develop suffocation-free pillows you can have them back, they say. Would you be pissed?
On July 31 2011 16:33 graph1k wrote: Everyone here who is getting mad at MLG is basically saying, "I want this, but they won't let me have it, they are therefore evil." This is what kindergarten children think. You have plenty of other places to get replays from if you want to analyze a pro. MLG was really the only tourny to actually release replays, now they don't. That doesn't make them an evil monster it just means they changed something. If you are going to get mad at MLG for not having replays, then go harass NASL, GSL, DH, etc to release theirs.
MLG has released replays repeatedly in the past with no problems. Why is the MLG Columbus replay pack not ruining Anaheim? Because it doesn't make a difference.
If someone was determined to spam a player, all they have to do is find a *single* person who played in the tournament, and follow the chain of Match History games to find any account they need. Finding BNet IDs through encoded replay data would be the hardest possible way to do it. That's part of why people are mad at MLG: they basically lied to us to justify not releasing them instead of being upfront about the "issue," which turns out to hardly be an issue at all.
Nobody thinks MLG is evil for this, just stupid. This was a valuable resource to a lot of players, and now suddenly it's been denied to them for no reason. You can say 'well GSL and NASL don't release them,' but they have monetary reasons not to, while MLG does not.
Imagine you stay at a hotel for several nights. One night, they take away your pillows, claiming that the risk of you smothering the staff and suffocating them is too high. Maybe once they develop suffocation-free pillows you can have them back, they say. Would you be pissed?
On July 30 2011 07:16 Excalibur_Z wrote: Okay so this still doesn't sidestep the "chat spam" issue. That's not going away just because they're not releasing replays. We've already discussed the whole "you can't get character codes from replays" thing (and the ones where you could do this via replayfu, they're not actually derived from replays IIRC, they're derived from back when the Battle.net Web profiles displayed the character codes, and that information can be referenced later).
What probably happened before and will no doubt happen again is that the character name will be displayed on the stream, and people (I'm pretty sure who) will just guess 1000 character codes until they get the right one, then it gets posted, then mass spamming occurs again. This is a fundamental Battle.net issue regarding how chat during Busy status is handled and not a replay issue.
There is actually a far easier way to get character codes through bnet which I discovered and will not disclose. ;p but your point is still valid.
On July 31 2011 17:07 hasuterrans wrote: I don't understand why they don't just release the replays after MLG is over. MLG has always released replays; it was one of my favorite things about the tournament.
i think they want us to buy their VODs rather than watching it for free
Man I really wish they would release the replays after the event, it'd be nice to go over and analyze the replays to figure out exactly what the players were doing. I can't blame them though, this is profitable for them in terms of increased VoD pass purchases, and it shows that they really want to protect the players' security in a sense. But I hate how matches from the open brackets and non-VOD can't even be viewed at all =( sad day for me.
MLG is held over one weekend whereas GSL and NASL both took >1 month to finish. Also, I'm sure none, if any, of the Code A qualifiers were broadcasted. I think the only equivalent would be Dreamhack, but even they didn't cast the BYOC tournament
This is not the case, Dreamhack had casters for the BYOC, they just weren't on-site.
On July 31 2011 18:08 Exstasy wrote: There have been 10+ Responses all asking the same question but they have all been ignored.
Why can't they just release the reps after the Event?, This won't affect the event in any way .
Someone explain this to me T.T
(I need MVP and DRG Reps =/ )
Their reasoning is that the casters and players use the same accounts for every event, so they can't release them or they'll just get spammed the next tournament.
For some reason they don't realize that if anyone wanted to get account codes, they could just look at the MLG Columbus replays. And it would only work for certain, older accounts, so as far as I know they could just create new accounts for the casters and be perfectly fine.
On July 31 2011 18:08 Exstasy wrote: There have been 10+ Responses all asking the same question but they have all been ignored.
Why can't they just release the reps after the Event?, This won't affect the event in any way .
Someone explain this to me T.T
(I need MVP and DRG Reps =/ )
the reason is really simple: I guess the special casters will release their vods on the mlg site to which you only get access if you have a mlg pack. At least this is my guess
On July 31 2011 18:08 Exstasy wrote: There have been 10+ Responses all asking the same question but they have all been ignored.
Why can't they just release the reps after the Event?, This won't affect the event in any way .
Someone explain this to me T.T
(I need MVP and DRG Reps =/ )
Their reasoning is that the casters and players use the same accounts for every event, so they can't release them or they'll just get spammed the next tournament.
For some reason they don't realize that if anyone wanted to get account codes, they could just look at the MLG Columbus replays. And it would only work for certain, older accounts, so as far as I know they could just create new accounts for the casters and be perfectly fine.
Well I guess the people spamming the casters during games can't get the rest of the IDs via match history anyway. Oh wait. ;d;d;d;
Pity. But for the record, I'm also of opinion that there's just stupidity behind this decision, and not actual greediness.
On July 31 2011 18:08 Exstasy wrote: There have been 10+ Responses all asking the same question but they have all been ignored.
Why can't they just release the reps after the Event?, This won't affect the event in any way .
Someone explain this to me T.T
(I need MVP and DRG Reps =/ )
the reason is really simple: I guess the special casters will release their vods on the mlg site to which you only get access if you have a mlg pack. At least this is my guess
I think this may be my first post, but i must say.. The replay pack was my favorite thing about MLG. Especially since its rare to grab a korean pro replay. Its hard to go back and really analyze anything with a vod and with DJwheat controlling what you actually see.... im usually trying to click on the minimap myself....
This is silly, ruin one of the best features of MLG just to try and make a dent in an annoying practice?
I appreciate that MLG cant sell replays or modify them without getting sued by Blizzard or something but still, why? This wont end the practice you claim it will, a much better solution would be to open a discussion with Blizzard behind closed doors about implementing features in the game to eradicate this practice rather than punish us for the acts of a few which so far, havent ruined an event, a few games may have lagged but from what I've seen theres none have been stopped for more than a minute or so, and those cases are rare.
On July 31 2011 07:33 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, no one said we were going to "sell replays to casters"--we said we would work with casters we trust and like to produce VoDs.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
Why are you responding to the most minor of concerns here?
There's quite an obvious backlash to this decision, and if MLG is really "for the fans", what are the chances of a reversal of this horrible decision..
On July 31 2011 14:24 aksfjh wrote: Meh, not as big of a deal as everybody is making it. I don't see people whine about GSL/NASL/etc replays. Sure, replays are nice, but they were an unusual (yet great) feature in the first place.
The reason nobody complains about GSL and NASL replays is that THEY CAST EVERY GAME, in MLG we see about 1/3 of the games played, and with the arrival of many Korean pros through the pool/open brackets, we have the chance to get a rare rep pack from some of the greatest players in the world. It was one of the greatest aspects of MLG in the past, now not so much.
Why do they expect to get 100K subscribers when they have severely lowered their product quality with bullshit reasoning. There has been no way to convert bnet id into a character code since last October, when it was patched out.
This sucks.. MLG reps were the BEST thing ever. I dont like watching every stream for countless hours even though I gladly pay for it (just for support).
If they choose not to publice replays it is their decission. I hope the reason behind this is just because they don't want pro players tactics to be revealed as easily as they would just release replays. Either way, it is still sad not to see replays.
MLG releasing replays made it my favourite tournament ever. Now that they removed that feature I have become a sad panda.
I still don't see it as a reason BIG enough to stop giving replays to the public. "DDoS" can't be prevented by you MLG. It is a matter that Blizzard has to fix.
Ask the players to give you permission releasing the replays. If some refuse, don't release those players replays but if some agree, please do release theirs. Some replays are better than no replays at all.
On July 31 2011 18:08 Exstasy wrote: There have been 10+ Responses all asking the same question but they have all been ignored.
Why can't they just release the reps after the Event?, This won't affect the event in any way .
Someone explain this to me T.T
(I need MVP and DRG Reps =/ )
the reason is really simple: I guess the special casters will release their vods on the mlg site to which you only get access if you have a mlg pack. At least this is my guess
On July 31 2011 22:23 XiGua wrote: MLG releasing replays made it my favourite tournament ever. Now that they removed that feature I have become a sad panda.
I still don't see it as a reason BIG enough to stop giving replays to the public. "DDoS" can't be prevented by you MLG. It is a matter that Blizzard has to fix.
Ask the players to give you permission releasing the replays. If some refuse, don't release those players replays but if some agree, please do release theirs. Some replays are better than no replays at all.
They made a mistake by claiming that you can be DDoS'ed by a replay file, they admit that now. Actually I'm not even sure what they are claiming can be done through a replay file, they're not saying.
On July 31 2011 22:23 XiGua wrote: MLG releasing replays made it my favourite tournament ever. Now that they removed that feature I have become a sad panda.
I still don't see it as a reason BIG enough to stop giving replays to the public. "DDoS" can't be prevented by you MLG. It is a matter that Blizzard has to fix.
Ask the players to give you permission releasing the replays. If some refuse, don't release those players replays but if some agree, please do release theirs. Some replays are better than no replays at all.
They made a mistake by claiming that you can be DDoS'ed by a replay file, they admit that now. Actually I'm not even sure what they are claiming can be done through a replay file, they're not saying.
Once can figure out the character name and code of a player and then spam whispers and invites etc to harass him during the play. Obviously, you can't be "DDoSed by a replay file"
On July 31 2011 22:23 XiGua wrote: MLG releasing replays made it my favourite tournament ever. Now that they removed that feature I have become a sad panda.
I still don't see it as a reason BIG enough to stop giving replays to the public. "DDoS" can't be prevented by you MLG. It is a matter that Blizzard has to fix.
Ask the players to give you permission releasing the replays. If some refuse, don't release those players replays but if some agree, please do release theirs. Some replays are better than no replays at all.
They made a mistake by claiming that you can be DDoS'ed by a replay file, they admit that now. Actually I'm not even sure what they are claiming can be done through a replay file, they're not saying.
Once can figure out the character name and code of a player and then spam whispers and invites etc to harass him during the play. Obviously, you can't be "DDoSed by a replay file"
On July 31 2011 22:23 XiGua wrote: MLG releasing replays made it my favourite tournament ever. Now that they removed that feature I have become a sad panda.
I still don't see it as a reason BIG enough to stop giving replays to the public. "DDoS" can't be prevented by you MLG. It is a matter that Blizzard has to fix.
Ask the players to give you permission releasing the replays. If some refuse, don't release those players replays but if some agree, please do release theirs. Some replays are better than no replays at all.
They made a mistake by claiming that you can be DDoS'ed by a replay file, they admit that now. Actually I'm not even sure what they are claiming can be done through a replay file, they're not saying.
Once can figure out the character name and code of a player and then spam whispers and invites etc to harass him during the play. Obviously, you can't be "DDoSed by a replay file"
Character name yes, not the code.
Really? I thought code was there. Well i checked https://github.com/GraylinKim/sc2reader/wiki/Replay.details which seems to indicate that you can get real id from the file, which is even worse (not sure if the source is reliable though)
This will happen sooner or later, just a matter of time. Beside reasons that MLG stated, not releasing replay is a way to protect players from being over studied thus make the game less fun. In BW, no replays of any tourney in Korea was released( not counting the early years ). This will make copy a build or study a player much harder thus make games that played in tournies seems more prestige and more fun.
This sucks for the mass but I believe most pro are welcoming this.
On August 01 2011 01:31 Caphe wrote: This will happen sooner or later, just a matter of time. Beside reasons that MLG stated, not releasing replay is a way to protect players from being over studied thus make the game less fun. In BW, no replays of any tourney in Korea was released( not counting the early years ). This will make copy a build or study a player much harder thus make games that played in tournies seems more prestige and more fun.
This sucks for the mass but I believe most pro are welcoming this.
This approach is dumb. If that's the case, they might as well stop streaming their games because a lot of intel is gained by your rivals. The more involved the community is in watching and understanding the game, the better it is for the sport on a whole. We aren't living in the past where this kind of freedom was limited.
On August 01 2011 01:50 DaemonX wrote: Hang on...if its risk to the event, why not just release the replays after the finals?
I call BS.
Because that means the risk goes onto the next event..
This is irrelevant because most players already went to Columbus and MLG released those replays so MLG should already be at risk anyway... it's obviously just a thinly veiled cover story so they can make us pay for vods or watch tons of advertisements, gotta love selling out
Blizzard released the MMA vs Losira replays from Columbus. They have valuable information about the caster ID's. Why isn't MLG begging Blizzard to stop advertising MLG, oh that's right I mean "endangering the quality of the casts".
On August 01 2011 01:50 DaemonX wrote: Hang on...if its risk to the event, why not just release the replays after the finals?
I call BS.
Because the casters & some of the players will use the same accounts for future events.
They can strip all info from replays. However, they say this is against ToS (while selling a replay is definitely prohibited, the ToS is less clear about this situation). Of course Blizzard would NEVER prosecute them for doing so, and if they wanted to be safe, a simple request letter would surely result in permission.
everytime we have an amazing game the joy of it is sapped by the knowledge that we wont get to see the replays of that amazing game. fuck you very much MLG
I wan't to see all games for Ret and steal all his gosu builds .
btw. It's not like you can't get you hands on replays from these players anyway T.T (or did MLG provide all the players with a new account just for mlg?)
On August 01 2011 01:31 Caphe wrote: This will happen sooner or later, just a matter of time. Beside reasons that MLG stated, not releasing replay is a way to protect players from being over studied thus make the game less fun. In BW, no replays of any tourney in Korea was released( not counting the early years ). This will make copy a build or study a player much harder thus make games that played in tournies seems more prestige and more fun.
This sucks for the mass but I believe most pro are welcoming this.
Nobody would mind if this was the stated reason. The problem is this isn't the reason why they're saying.
I think the problem with not releasing the replays is, that they are showing only a small percentage of the played games on stream. When GSL does not release their replays that is not a big deal because they do stream any single game. So i guess it would be better to a) publish the replays or b) make a system with less games, so that it is possible to show more of them on stream.
It just feels bad when you see games like Naniwa vs IdrA and others in the Bracket but there is no chance for you to watch them...
On August 01 2011 06:07 mumpfel wrote: I think the problem with not releasing the replays is, that they are showing only a small percentage of the played games on stream. When GSL does not release their replays that is not a big deal because they do stream any single game. So i guess it would be better to a) publish the replays or b) make a system with less games, so that it is possible to show more of them on stream.
It just feels bad when you see games like Naniwa vs IdrA and others in the Bracket but there is no chance for you to watch them...
Exactly, we just missed Naniwa vs Idra and Ganzi vs Ret, those are huge matches -_- And the only way we'll get to see them is a husky cast or some crap.
On August 01 2011 07:39 EliteReplay wrote: i have the feeling that they will release the replays after 1 week. MLG may realize inst a good move to not release them.
annoyingly, I doubt that, They'll probably go through with their plan to send them to Casters to make Vods. And Vods just aren't the same =/
Not releasing the replays after the event is over, shows that they just want money for it. Look on any replay site and you can get the same details as you get from MLG replays. Silly excuse to say that you dont want to release the replays while thousands of others released replays aswell, and if it really were that big of a deal blizzard would fix(tm) it. In my eyes a bit sneaky to use this argument to get money out of it through ads, dont go and hide behind some silly excuse because it looks pretty obvious to me...
Edit funfact: It seems that someone (perhaps himself) already released some of ToD's replays, perhaps it's because it doesn't bother him?
Why do people take the fact that MLG is not releasing Anaheim replays and automatically jump to the conclusion that the reasoning behind it is to make more money? Some of the conspiracy theories that are going on in this thread are just mind numbing. Are people really this incapable of reading?
It's clear that the decision was made for multiple reasons, one of which being to help prevent interference of Anaheim and future events. They never claimed that this would somehow solve the problem. They only stated their suspicions that it could potentially be a liability and they'd rather err on the side of caution in this case.
Also, I don't understand where people are making the connection between not releasing replays and selling more HQ passes. The two things literally have nothing to do with each other.
Honestly, is this really a surprise to people? This was discussed literally right after Columbus and Lee stated clearly back then (I think it was on one of DJWheat's shows) that they were looking into the replay issue after the problems they encountered during that event...
If you want to blame anyone for ruining your replay-viewing experience, blame the idiots that are being dicks with their stupid spamming of the players and casters, which made MLG suspect replays as a liability in the first place. MLG is just attempting to respond to an existing problem to the best of their ability and make the best of a unfavorable situation. I don't understand how people are expecting them to just sit on their asses just because it MIGHT not be an effective solution.
I get that many of you aren't happy with this decision, but they are going to be releasing the replays to casters so most likely you will be able to see the games through the casts. I know it's not the same thing, but try to be a little less judgmental. Their decisions don't really fall outside the realm of reason given the situation.
On August 01 2011 08:47 LegendaryZ wrote: Why do people take the fact that MLG is not releasing Anaheim replays and automatically jump to the conclusion that the reasoning behind it is to make more money? Some of the conspiracy theories that are going on in this thread are just mind numbing. Are people really this incapable of reading?
It's clear that the decision was made for multiple reasons, one of which being to help prevent interference of Anaheim and future events. They never claimed that this would somehow solve the problem. They only stated their suspicions that it could potentially be a liability and they'd rather err on the side of caution in this case.
Also, I don't understand where people are making the connection between not releasing replays and selling more HQ passes. The two things literally have nothing to do with each other.
Honestly, is this really a surprise to people? This was discussed literally right after Columbus and Lee stated clearly back then (I think it was on one of DJWheat's shows) that they were looking into the replay issue after the problems they encountered during that event...
If you want to blame anyone for ruining your replay-viewing experience, blame the idiots that are being dicks with their stupid spamming of the players and casters, which made MLG suspect replays as a liability in the first place. MLG is just attempting to respond to an existing problem to the best of their ability and make the best of a unfavorable situation. I don't understand how people are expecting them to just sit on their asses just because it MIGHT not be an effective solution.
I get that many of you aren't happy with this decision, but they are going to be releasing the replays to casters so most likely you will be able to see the games through the casts. I know it's not the same thing, but try to be a little less judgmental. Their decisions don't really fall outside the realm of reason given the situation.
On August 01 2011 08:47 LegendaryZ wrote: Why do people take the fact that MLG is not releasing Anaheim replays and automatically jump to the conclusion that the reasoning behind it is to make more money? Some of the conspiracy theories that are going on in this thread are just mind numbing. Are people really this incapable of reading?
It's clear that the decision was made for multiple reasons, one of which being to help prevent interference of Anaheim and future events. They never claimed that this would somehow solve the problem. They only stated their suspicions that it could potentially be a liability and they'd rather err on the side of caution in this case.
Also, I don't understand where people are making the connection between not releasing replays and selling more HQ passes. The two things literally have nothing to do with each other.
Honestly, is this really a surprise to people? This was discussed literally right after Columbus and Lee stated clearly back then (I think it was on one of DJWheat's shows) that they were looking into the replay issue after the problems they encountered during that event...
If you want to blame anyone for ruining your replay-viewing experience, blame the idiots that are being dicks with their stupid spamming of the players and casters, which made MLG suspect replays as a liability in the first place. MLG is just attempting to respond to an existing problem to the best of their ability and make the best of a unfavorable situation. I don't understand how people are expecting them to just sit on their asses just because it MIGHT not be an effective solution.
I get that many of you aren't happy with this decision, but they are going to be releasing the replays to casters so most likely you will be able to see the games through the casts. I know it's not the same thing, but try to be a little less judgmental. Their decisions don't really fall outside the realm of reason given the situation.
You didn't read the thread....did you?
All I read was a bunch of whining and accusing MLG of money grubbing and ripping off customers. If there's something else in the 40+ pages of actual substance rather than ridiculous conjecture, please feel free to point me to it.
Admittedly, I'm a bit sick of all of the MLG hating at this point when it seems pretty clear to me that they've done nothing but repeatedly try to satisfy what's all too often a ridiculously ungrateful fanbase for at least the past 3 events. I'm all for keeping companies honest with criticism, but it's really starting to get a little bit ridiculous.
On August 01 2011 08:47 LegendaryZ wrote: Why do people take the fact that MLG is not releasing Anaheim replays and automatically jump to the conclusion that the reasoning behind it is to make more money? Some of the conspiracy theories that are going on in this thread are just mind numbing. Are people really this incapable of reading?
It's clear that the decision was made for multiple reasons, one of which being to help prevent interference of Anaheim and future events. They never claimed that this would somehow solve the problem. They only stated their suspicions that it could potentially be a liability and they'd rather err on the side of caution in this case.
Also, I don't understand where people are making the connection between not releasing replays and selling more HQ passes. The two things literally have nothing to do with each other.
Honestly, is this really a surprise to people? This was discussed literally right after Columbus and Lee stated clearly back then (I think it was on one of DJWheat's shows) that they were looking into the replay issue after the problems they encountered during that event...
If you want to blame anyone for ruining your replay-viewing experience, blame the idiots that are being dicks with their stupid spamming of the players and casters, which made MLG suspect replays as a liability in the first place. MLG is just attempting to respond to an existing problem to the best of their ability and make the best of a unfavorable situation. I don't understand how people are expecting them to just sit on their asses just because it MIGHT not be an effective solution.
I get that many of you aren't happy with this decision, but they are going to be releasing the replays to casters so most likely you will be able to see the games through the casts. I know it's not the same thing, but try to be a little less judgmental. Their decisions don't really fall outside the realm of reason given the situation.
You didn't read the thread....did you?
All I read was a bunch of whining and accusing MLG of money grubbing and ripping off customers. If there's something else in the 40+ pages of actual substance rather than ridiculous conjecture, please feel free to point me to it.
Admittedly, I'm a bit sick of all of the MLG hating at this point when it seems pretty clear to me that they've done nothing but repeatedly try to satisfy what's all too often a ridiculously ungrateful fanbase for at least the past 3 events. I'm all for keeping companies honest with criticism, but it's really starting to get a little bit ridiculous.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number.
It is at least partially about making money. Do your research before you post.
its not like gsl releases any replays, and we dont get all up in arms about that. so why should we get mad at mlg when theyve done this for quite awhile. yeah it sucks but doesnt mean they are evil.
On August 01 2011 08:47 LegendaryZ wrote: Why do people take the fact that MLG is not releasing Anaheim replays and automatically jump to the conclusion that the reasoning behind it is to make more money? Some of the conspiracy theories that are going on in this thread are just mind numbing. Are people really this incapable of reading?
It's clear that the decision was made for multiple reasons, one of which being to help prevent interference of Anaheim and future events. They never claimed that this would somehow solve the problem. They only stated their suspicions that it could potentially be a liability and they'd rather err on the side of caution in this case.
Also, I don't understand where people are making the connection between not releasing replays and selling more HQ passes. The two things literally have nothing to do with each other.
Honestly, is this really a surprise to people? This was discussed literally right after Columbus and Lee stated clearly back then (I think it was on one of DJWheat's shows) that they were looking into the replay issue after the problems they encountered during that event...
If you want to blame anyone for ruining your replay-viewing experience, blame the idiots that are being dicks with their stupid spamming of the players and casters, which made MLG suspect replays as a liability in the first place. MLG is just attempting to respond to an existing problem to the best of their ability and make the best of a unfavorable situation. I don't understand how people are expecting them to just sit on their asses just because it MIGHT not be an effective solution.
I get that many of you aren't happy with this decision, but they are going to be releasing the replays to casters so most likely you will be able to see the games through the casts. I know it's not the same thing, but try to be a little less judgmental. Their decisions don't really fall outside the realm of reason given the situation.
You didn't read the thread....did you?
All I read was a bunch of whining and accusing MLG of money grubbing and ripping off customers. If there's something else in the 40+ pages of actual substance rather than ridiculous conjecture, please feel free to point me to it.
Admittedly, I'm a bit sick of all of the MLG hating at this point when it seems pretty clear to me that they've done nothing but repeatedly try to satisfy what's all too often a ridiculously ungrateful fanbase for at least the past 3 events. I'm all for keeping companies honest with criticism, but it's really starting to get a little bit ridiculous.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number.
It is at least partially about making money. Do your research before you post.
Monetizing in this context means serving ads.
Wow, really ripping off the consumers, aren't they? Also, did I ever say that money was not a part of it? I'm sure it is, but I'm also sure it's more of an afterthought considering that they were talking about the potential liability immediately after the problems at Columbus, long before any mention of monetizing it. And no, this isn't some sort of insider knowledge. It was stated in a pretty public way without all of the cries and moans found in this thread. Either way, it takes a huge leap to go from "We're going to be putting ads." to "MLG is just doing this to sell more HQ passes."
How about we drop this image of a money grubbing corporation abusing its customers and taking all they can when that's clearly not the case here nor has it been through at least the past 3 MLG events. Seriously, it always has to be something with you people. They try to make up for Dallas by acknowledging vouchers for Columbus. When Columbus has its problems, they try to make things right by giving everyone HQ for free. As far as Anaheim goes, they've been working hard to stay on top of problems that customers are having with their streams and voucher codes. Yet, despite all of these clear indications that MLG is working to satisfy the community and its customer base and cater to them, people take small things like this and make them out to be a uncaring corporation just out to leech money from people.
I get it, people aren't happy that replays aren't being released. Honestly, get over it. Despite popular opinion on this thread, it's pretty clear that this actually ISN'T about money and anyone who's actually read the thread and has listened to what Lee actually had to say since Columbus ended would know that. Of course it's much easier to put on a tin foil hat and cry about the sky falling than it is to believe that a corporate entity might actually have an interest in treating their customers right and trying to put out a quality product so I suppose I'm really not surprised...
On August 01 2011 08:47 LegendaryZ wrote: Why do people take the fact that MLG is not releasing Anaheim replays and automatically jump to the conclusion that the reasoning behind it is to make more money? Some of the conspiracy theories that are going on in this thread are just mind numbing. Are people really this incapable of reading?
It's clear that the decision was made for multiple reasons, one of which being to help prevent interference of Anaheim and future events. They never claimed that this would somehow solve the problem. They only stated their suspicions that it could potentially be a liability and they'd rather err on the side of caution in this case.
Also, I don't understand where people are making the connection between not releasing replays and selling more HQ passes. The two things literally have nothing to do with each other.
Honestly, is this really a surprise to people? This was discussed literally right after Columbus and Lee stated clearly back then (I think it was on one of DJWheat's shows) that they were looking into the replay issue after the problems they encountered during that event...
If you want to blame anyone for ruining your replay-viewing experience, blame the idiots that are being dicks with their stupid spamming of the players and casters, which made MLG suspect replays as a liability in the first place. MLG is just attempting to respond to an existing problem to the best of their ability and make the best of a unfavorable situation. I don't understand how people are expecting them to just sit on their asses just because it MIGHT not be an effective solution.
I get that many of you aren't happy with this decision, but they are going to be releasing the replays to casters so most likely you will be able to see the games through the casts. I know it's not the same thing, but try to be a little less judgmental. Their decisions don't really fall outside the realm of reason given the situation.
You didn't read the thread....did you?
All I read was a bunch of whining and accusing MLG of money grubbing and ripping off customers. If there's something else in the 40+ pages of actual substance rather than ridiculous conjecture, please feel free to point me to it.
Admittedly, I'm a bit sick of all of the MLG hating at this point when it seems pretty clear to me that they've done nothing but repeatedly try to satisfy what's all too often a ridiculously ungrateful fanbase for at least the past 3 events. I'm all for keeping companies honest with criticism, but it's really starting to get a little bit ridiculous.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number.
It is at least partially about making money. Do your research before you post.
Wow, really ripping off the consumers, aren't they? Also, did I ever say that money was not a part of it? I'm sure it is, but I'm also sure it's more of an afterthought considering that they were talking about the potential liability immediately after the problems at Columbus, long before any mention of monetizing it. Either way, it takes a huge leap to go from "We're going to be putting ads." to "MLG is just doing this to sell more HQ passes."
How about we drop this image of a money grubbing corporation abusing its customers and taking all they can when that's clearly not the case here nor has it been through at least the past 3 MLG events. Seriously, it always has to be something with you people. They try to make up for Dallas by acknowledging vouchers for Columbus. When Columbus has its problems, they try to make things right by giving everyone HQ for free. As far as Anaheim goes, they've been working hard to stay on top of problems that customers are having with their streams and voucher codes. Yet, despite all of these clear indications that MLG is working to satisfy the community and its customer base and cater to them, people take small things like this and make them out to be a uncaring corporation just out to leech money from people.
I get it, people aren't happy that replays aren't being released. Honestly, get over it. Despite popular opinion on this thread, it's pretty clear that this actually ISN'T about money and anyone who's actually read the thread and has listened to what Lee actually had to say since Columbus ended would know that. Of course it's much easier to put on a tin foil hat and cry about the sky falling than it is to believe that a corporate entity might actually have an interest in treating their customers right and trying to put out a quality product so I suppose I'm really not surprised...
I'd love to believe MLG gave a shit, I really would, But if you believe any corporation ISN'T solely basing all of their decision making on increasing revenue then you're living in a dream world. It would be great if they didn't, it'd be great if people didn't exploit cheap labour etc, but they do. Companies care about money. That's the sad truth. As much as i enjoy MLG their main care is profit, they are a business.
On August 01 2011 09:28 Exstasy wrote: I'd love to believe MLG gave a shit, I really would, But if you believe any corporation ISN'T solely basing all of their decision making on increasing revenue then you're living in a dream world. It would be great if they didn't, it'd be great if people didn't exploit cheap labour etc, but they do. Companies care about money. That's the sad truth. As much as i enjoy MLG their main care is profit, they are a business.
And just because they are a business and their financial gain is their ultimate goal, it's impossible to believe that they might actually care about the integrity of their product or treating their customers right?
Where in the world does it say that you can't care about both?
And also, that's a pretty common and convenient thinking error. Apply a generalized argument (often unfounded itself) to a specific situation to validate your belief despite clear evidence to the contrary. I say that your generalization is unfounded because there are actually plenty of corporations that aren't solely basing all of their decision making on increasing revenue. There are corporations that are satisfied with carving out a niche market for themselves and many corporations that believe in producing quality products rather than skimping on parts. Not every company is out to be Walmart.
On August 01 2011 09:10 Golgotha wrote: its not like gsl releases any replays, and we dont get all up in arms about that. so why should we get mad at mlg when theyve done this for quite awhile. yeah it sucks but doesnt mean they are evil.
We at least get to see all the GSL games, here there are hundreds of games that don't get shown (obviously otherwise you'd need like 20 streams lol) but still it has been awesome to get to watch the replays afterwards. Sadly it looks like that opportunity has been revoked
On August 01 2011 09:28 Exstasy wrote: I'd love to believe MLG gave a shit, I really would, But if you believe any corporation ISN'T solely basing all of their decision making on increasing revenue then you're living in a dream world. It would be great if they didn't, it'd be great if people didn't exploit cheap labour etc, but they do. Companies care about money. That's the sad truth. As much as i enjoy MLG their main care is profit, they are a business.
And just because they are a business and their financial gain is their ultimate goal, it's impossible to believe that they might actually care about the integrity of their product or treating their customers right?
Where in the world does it say that you can't care about both?
im hoping they act exactly like big busineses (oil companies, telecommunications, etc.). because those companies get shit done. i want to see mlgs every month for years to come.
On August 01 2011 09:10 Golgotha wrote: its not like gsl releases any replays, and we dont get all up in arms about that. so why should we get mad at mlg when theyve done this for quite awhile. yeah it sucks but doesnt mean they are evil.
Replays from the open bracket are all we get content wise from that portion of the tournament which is the biggest part of an MLG event. To the people saying to get over it and it's a small thing, it really isn't. having no replays means hundreds of games will never be experienced. Not releasing replays lowers the content of the event in my opinion. Whitera vs Demuslim for example played some absolutely amazing tvp in losers bracket offstream and now the best we have is to hope some caster casts the game sometime soon.
If MLG is using this as a way to make more money that's fine I applaud that, but to deny experiencing open bracket play especially when the streams are focused on pool play for 90% of the event is bad.
From home now we get 2 hours of open bracket coverage early on Saturday (open winners round 5 and open winners round 6) and that's it for the entire event from the open bracket which honestly is starting to have higher quality competition than some inconsistent pool players playing bad games in the pools.
On August 01 2011 09:23 LegendaryZ wrote:I get it, people aren't happy that replays aren't being released. Honestly, get over it. Despite popular opinion on this thread, it's pretty clear that this actually ISN'T about money and anyone who's actually read the thread and has listened to what Lee actually had to say since Columbus ended would know that. Of course it's much easier to put on a tin foil hat and cry about the sky falling than it is to believe that a corporate entity might actually have an interest in treating their customers right and trying to put out a quality product so I suppose I'm really not surprised...
There is no security issue. So if the reasons are security issues and monetizing, but the former isn't an issue, then there's only one reason left.
You can get the user ID via searching their name on battle.net, sc2ranks, or any other site that indexes players. One can also get replays of such players already typically — maybe not all of them, but most of them or almost all of them.
If player ID is the only information in the replay, WTF is the point of denying people the replays?
Are they replays at least going to be given out after the event, or what?
On July 30 2011 05:45 udgnim wrote: the Koreans were the most often targeted players of this happening. MLG has brand new SC2 accounts specifically for the Koreans to play on, and they basically used up their limit at MLG Columbus because of the amount of spam whispering the Koreans were getting.
Interesting, although I'm not sure if that would really affect things any differently.
On August 01 2011 08:47 LegendaryZ wrote: Why do people take the fact that MLG is not releasing Anaheim replays and automatically jump to the conclusion that the reasoning behind it is to make more money? Some of the conspiracy theories that are going on in this thread are just mind numbing. Are people really this incapable of reading?
It's clear that the decision was made for multiple reasons, one of which being to help prevent interference of Anaheim and future events. They never claimed that this would somehow solve the problem. They only stated their suspicions that it could potentially be a liability and they'd rather err on the side of caution in this case.
Also, I don't understand where people are making the connection between not releasing replays and selling more HQ passes. The two things literally have nothing to do with each other.
Honestly, is this really a surprise to people? This was discussed literally right after Columbus and Lee stated clearly back then (I think it was on one of DJWheat's shows) that they were looking into the replay issue after the problems they encountered during that event...
If you want to blame anyone for ruining your replay-viewing experience, blame the idiots that are being dicks with their stupid spamming of the players and casters, which made MLG suspect replays as a liability in the first place. MLG is just attempting to respond to an existing problem to the best of their ability and make the best of a unfavorable situation. I don't understand how people are expecting them to just sit on their asses just because it MIGHT not be an effective solution.
I get that many of you aren't happy with this decision, but they are going to be releasing the replays to casters so most likely you will be able to see the games through the casts. I know it's not the same thing, but try to be a little less judgmental. Their decisions don't really fall outside the realm of reason given the situation.
You didn't read the thread....did you?
All I read was a bunch of whining and accusing MLG of money grubbing and ripping off customers. If there's something else in the 40+ pages of actual substance rather than ridiculous conjecture, please feel free to point me to it.
Admittedly, I'm a bit sick of all of the MLG hating at this point when it seems pretty clear to me that they've done nothing but repeatedly try to satisfy what's all too often a ridiculously ungrateful fanbase for at least the past 3 events. I'm all for keeping companies honest with criticism, but it's really starting to get a little bit ridiculous.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
5) Releasing the replays to casters that we work with and trust is the least risky way to get SOME of this content out. I know it's not everything that everyone wants. At the end of the day though, we can fund events because we can monetize content. Keep in mind that we lose a tremendous amount of money every event. Our productions are not cheap. Sat trucks alone are a solid six figure number.
It is at least partially about making money. Do your research before you post.
Wow, really ripping off the consumers, aren't they? Also, did I ever say that money was not a part of it? I'm sure it is, but I'm also sure it's more of an afterthought considering that they were talking about the potential liability immediately after the problems at Columbus, long before any mention of monetizing it. And no, this isn't some sort of insider knowledge. It was stated in a pretty public way without all of the cries and moans found in this thread. Either way, it takes a huge leap to go from "We're going to be putting ads." to "MLG is just doing this to sell more HQ passes."
How about we drop this image of a money grubbing corporation abusing its customers and taking all they can when that's clearly not the case here nor has it been through at least the past 3 MLG events. Seriously, it always has to be something with you people. They try to make up for Dallas by acknowledging vouchers for Columbus. When Columbus has its problems, they try to make things right by giving everyone HQ for free. As far as Anaheim goes, they've been working hard to stay on top of problems that customers are having with their streams and voucher codes. Yet, despite all of these clear indications that MLG is working to satisfy the community and its customer base and cater to them, people take small things like this and make them out to be a uncaring corporation just out to leech money from people.
I get it, people aren't happy that replays aren't being released. Honestly, get over it. Despite popular opinion on this thread, it's pretty clear that this actually ISN'T about money and anyone who's actually read the thread and has listened to what Lee actually had to say since Columbus ended would know that. Of course it's much easier to put on a tin foil hat and cry about the sky falling than it is to believe that a corporate entity might actually have an interest in treating their customers right and trying to put out a quality product so I suppose I'm really not surprised...
Wait I'm pretty sure that you're missing the part that it really IS about money.
On August 01 2011 09:10 Golgotha wrote: its not like gsl releases any replays, and we dont get all up in arms about that. so why should we get mad at mlg when theyve done this for quite awhile. yeah it sucks but doesnt mean they are evil.
no one would be pissed if they listed the reasons that GSL has for not releasing replays, but they said it's about something that's easily fixable. So if that's the problem, fix it, and give us replays. If it's for the same reasons as GSL, then say that from the beginning, people might be pissed, but not directly at MLG
Okay I made topic (but closed before I could replay ) and even if they are not releasing replays, someone should still tell Dustin Browder to fix the Busy issue (spam chat still lags the game).
Anyway, anyone at MLG and happen to see Browder there? Tell him about the lag issue.
Regardless, this appears to be an exploitable thing (lagging a player) and it should be fixed.
If nothing else, select like a top 10 of the best games and release those at the very, very least, Rain-Boxer game 1 is one of those replays I'd save forever. We need something MLG please, throw us a bone.
On August 01 2011 12:21 Rasun wrote: If nothing else, select like a top 10 of the best games and release those at the very, very least, Rain-Boxer game 1 is one of those replays I'd save forever. We need something MLG please, throw us a bone.
nah, fuck that, i want em all. lol. i guess that would be better than nothing though. ToD has his saved on sc2rep.com
Yea, timezones fucked me up. All I was really able to see were the last games of each day. Not nearly as close to the previous MLG experience, when I could watch the reps of previous games that I'd missed.
Get cracking removing those codes or whatever has to be "done" to get those replays out, MLG. The community is watching you, hoping you do the right thing.
i love hearing about all these awesome games i missed out on and in order to watch them im going to have to go through VODS with a caster i may or may not like where i will have to spend a frustratingly long time tracking back and forth if i want to learn anything. Not to mention all the threads popping up with VOD issues. To watch the 50 - 100+ games we missed out and to expect it all to be VODS is just incredibly inefficient.
wow the good protoss games from MLG weren't streamed Naniwa vs idra Huk vs sjow sheth vs naniwa How am i going to watch that games? You are totally making fun of all protoss players and no i dont care about some youtube caster
On August 01 2011 12:30 MrShankly wrote: dammit why does blizzard have to fuck up SO much
There is no problem on Blizzard's end.
well they could have been better about putting in b.net to block the invite/chat spam; saw someone on destiny's stream one time repeatedly inviting him to a party. very annoying. it is also sad that can also somehow cause lag. there should definitely be a blocking feature to prevent that.
if blizzard puts that in and/or modifies the replay format, then MLG will have no excuse to not release the replays. hopefully they read/see what's going on and implement it
On August 01 2011 13:16 quantumslip wrote:well they could have been better about putting in b.net to block the invite/chat spam; saw someone on destiny's stream one time repeatedly inviting him to a party. very annoying. it is also sad that can also somehow cause lag. there should definitely be a blocking feature to prevent that.
if blizzard puts that in and/or modifies the replay format, then MLG will have no excuse to not release the replays. hopefully they read/see what's going on and implement it
B.Net chat management could be better, absolutely. However, there is no problem with the replay format. Having the B.Net profile information in the replay is a good thing.
What Lee has essentially come out and said is that his team has managed to find the 3-4 digit character codes required to add a player to your friends list in Stacraft 2, something that was previously thought to be impossible because the data did not exist.
Until this claim is verified with proof of concept to a trusted source (i.e. R1CH) , this claim that the replay can be used for denial of service holds no weight and replays pose zero risk to MLG.
There are easier ways to add players onto friends list to spam them than replays.
It is obvious that restricting replay release is more about monetization than anything else. What they should to is give Gold members access to replays or even create a higher level of support than Gold with replay access if necessary ($50-$100 per year). They could make you sign a TOS that says you aren't allowed to share them or make vods out of them without their permission and sue any replay site or caster that violates the TOS.
I kind of wonder if the recent in-game linking of replays by blizzard has something to do this and Blizzard and MLG are discussing replay monetization options for Heart of the Swarm. While replay monetization would be disappointing it would be better than no options for access to tournament replays.
Screw VODs. There are a ton of games not casted that i want to watch. I really don't want to have to watch these games casted by husky or HD. Withholding this replays clearly is going to do nothing, the public has access to pro player character codes regardless of the replays being released or not. What a joke
When I first saw this article, all I could think of is an atrocity committed against competitive fans of the scene. I died quite a bit inside when they didn't even cast DRG vs Tyler that they even scheduled to appear. That was before I even encountered the news of them choosing not to release the replays.
We're being completely screwed by a service we practically expect. I already had to dedicate a lot of effort to avoid watching Husky cast(my personal opinion of him is bad, etc.). I would hate to see the replays I actually want to study to be released, only to be casted again. I don't care that people are potentially going to see the games as VODs given that it's extremely hard to watch those games as a educational experience. When we factor in the insane multitasking ability of many of these players we seek replays from, we have to account for the fact that so many key moments in these games will go unseen and only watching them through a replay is going to break them down to us.
I understand that MLG wants to generate revenue from this content - this is ok in my opinion. But they need to find a suitable way to publish this wealth of good games for the community. They should not ignore that international viewers from other timezones can´t stay up the whole night to watch live streams. In addition only a minority of all games were casted.
I´m from Germany and I would pay for the replays of MLG Anaheim. I loved the replay pack from MLG Columbus.
Wait so MLG is basically saying that because you can find a player's bnet name and identifier from a replay, it is unsafe for them to release replays?
I understand that MLG is a business, but just be fucking honest, you're doing it to generate extra revenue. No one would blame you for saying you needed to cover costs, we all love the content MLG provides, but this is rank corporate bullshit you're trying to pull here. Anyone with a will to fucking get someone's bnet ID is going to do it regardless of whether or not its in the form of a replay released from MLG, much less from previously released MLG replays. And then to lie about it and call it a DDoS is completely ridiculous. Losing faith in MLG honesty.
On July 30 2011 07:46 MLG_Lee wrote: A couple points of clarification:
1) Releasing replays exposes the event to risk that we're not comfortable with. Happy to debate the level of relative risk, but it's there. If I can remove ANY risk from the event, I'm going to. Do any of you really think I or anyone else at MLG want to repeat Dallas?
The part of repeating dallas because of releasing replays is hilarious, and just confirms how unprofessional someone can be, trying to incur fear of something that makes no sense in hopes that people will shut up and accept the faulty reasoning for not releasing replays.
Wasn't MLG the only major global SC2 event, i wouldn't watch it anymore just to think about some of the people that are running it.
This is so sad especially when basically the reason is [at least what I undestood] that you dont want people to spam casters and players. Is it so hard to buy four new accounts for casters every event? Most of the IDs of well known players is known anyway and there are still old replays from which they can get thisinformation. I undestand that you want to protect yourself, but I think this is the worst precaution ever. And honestly huge blame in this is on Blizzard. If you find a way to release these replays, make it available only for MLG members. Im sure that you would make some dollars. We want them so badly!!! Please find a way :'(
I'm so sad they won't release replays >< One of my favortie part about MLG was exploring the hundreds of replays, which occupied me for like a month after the event, and finding new interesting stuff I don't understand the risk (perhaps there is), and why they wouldn't rename the players (can be scripted). Bleh.
Quick question... does anyone think that the DDOS claim is bogus, and the lack of replay release is a player request? We had Boxer, MVP, DRG and some other first time Koreans coming over, and it can be notoriously difficult to get ahold of raw replays of these guys. They are managed rather tightly. On top of that, Slayers came over showcasing a nearly brand new TvT style they may not want aped.
Am I just paranoid? Seems right to me.
Either way, I'd pay another $10 for the replay pack.
I think this is good for the players because it won't allow people to see the exact timings of their builds. Lets say you spend 15 hours developing your own build and it turns out to be successful. If somebody has just one replay of it, they can learn the timings of the build within an hour after you put all the effort in perfecting yours which is unfair imo. Here is a comparision:
A student studies for a week straight for the upcoming test and scores an A+. The class clown who never studied but sits beside him sees his answers, copies them, and makes the exact same grade. Completely unfair to the player that invested his time in devoloping his strategy.
That is why I feel players are more comfortable displaying new strategies in the GSL and Brood War because pro reps are not released. But, this is also very bad for the people who want to learn, commentate replay analysis on youtube, or just casually enjoy watching a replay being free to click where ever without listening to a commentator. So, it has its advantages and perks. Personally, I think the replays should not be released (for my first reason mentioned above). Imagine if Flashes 2011 tournament replays were released. Everybody would see his decision making, builds, timings, timing attacks, and strategy and emulate it until it reaches perfection. Which makes a player vulnerable because their replays are up for analysis for other teams to break down their style. However, they could have very solid play (like MVP) doing regular syles so its not like its a big deal if anybody copies.
However, some of the games were not casted. I think they should have had somebody cast those games and post them up on their website rather then not showing them at all.
Stop trying to hide behind this whole "DDOS" attack, when R1CH clearly called BS on this.
Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
"I'M NOT GOING TO EVEN DEFEND MYSELF. I have no way of defending this with any actual proof so I'm just imply that R1CH is mistaken and that I'm (PROBABLY NOT) going to give him a real reason outside of the public ear."
Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
"I'M NOT GOING TO EVEN DEFEND MYSELF. I have no way of defending this with any actual proof so I'm just imply that R1CH is mistaken and that I'm (PROBABLY NOT) going to give him a real reason outside of the public ear."
They already said they misspoke by calling it DDOS...
Not going to discuss in a public forum how you can get to the chat name. That's like teaching people how to break your own event ;p R1CH, love to chat with you about it some offline/inpriv.
"I'M NOT GOING TO EVEN DEFEND MYSELF. I have no way of defending this with any actual proof so I'm just imply that R1CH is mistaken and that I'm (PROBABLY NOT) going to give him a real reason outside of the public ear."
I seriously think Tlers find a reason to whine about everything. If they do not want to show the reps, they do not have to. It is their tournament and they can host it however they like.
Kind of sucks... Would enjoy stealing the builds. I am a gold member w/ MLG so if this is some ploy for them to get people to buy membership to view the VODs it makes me sad
One of the most enjoyable things about Brood War was downloading replays from all the clan leagues WGTCL, ICCUPCL, PGTOUR, BWCL, etc - and watching all the pros play with friends. That is how I spent most of my time on USEast, and watching those replays made me enjoy the game so much more.
With SC2 not only can you not watch replays with friends, but replays just don't exist in the first place. So fucking retarded. To me, personally, that takes a big chunk of what makes an RTS game enjoyable. Watching pros play and analyzing builds.
Alright I've finally read all the posts, it took approximately a hour and twenty minutes. I wanted to be well informed and after reading R1CHs and Lees comments I've decided to make a post.
Lee says the term "DDoS"ing was missused and explains why they won't be releasing replays, basically because of possible damage it _could_ cause them in future events, alright lets let this fly for now.
He was the founder of gotfrag but as I've been a part of that forum and community gotfrag had premium membership which allowed indepth understanding of things such why is player A nading that exact spot etc, you couldn't get all the info needed for improvement from .dem (demos)
So lets say that Counterstrike Demo = Starcraft 2 Vod, while the Starcraft 2 replay is something that would be a counterstrike demo + premium membership, the replay is afterall the ultimate tool for learning in Starcraft 2.
Ok now lets talk about MLG doing stuff "for the fans". Ok, theres been a ton of stuff they did for the community, BUT its important to note all these things they did "for the fans and the community" had direct impact of improving their buissness and they fit their buissness model so, while on the other hand releasing replays could be potentially harmful for people buying HQ passes and VOD access since mid quality is actually to watch the stream is quite decent and with the replays released you got everything that you basically.
So quite simply releasing replays = bad buissness in the future, which is harmful for MLG but not because of DDoSing or spamming players with messages and trolling, we're not imbecils.
I could all slide IF there was a VOD for EVERY match played in the MLG, but theres only a handful compared to all the games played there, maybe the player I want to see isn't the best player in the world but hes someone I'm a fan of so why don't I have that right?
With all this being said, I've bought membership on MLG due to how good Columbus was for me as a spectator.
This one I pay for and I can't watch both streams in HQ due to how poorly it was resolved and there are no replays, so basically I paid for a worse expirience then Columbus which once again was FREE.
Now lets go back to the scapegoat of reasons, as a few people already pointed out if I want to spam player I won't go trough the hassle of looking for his character code trough a fucking replay, I'll google it and guess what? I'll find it for 80% people competing.
So if your gonna deny us features you previously gave out for free, and make the ones you pay in a way that you also have to see ads, AND most importantly give out reasons that only a 5year old or a complete idiot could believe and try to pass it off as for the "good of the players and the community", please don't insult our intelligence and simply say "I want to make more money etc" and at least be honest about it.
Well, most of the players have replays released already... Without any 'DDOS' troubles... I don't know why we can't have the Reps.
MLG promotes players coming back, but every player who has been to any MLG before Anaheim had his replays released, so if there was a risk, wouldn't some player have been affected already?
And else; the solution: Purchase a couple of Player Accounts for MLG. Call them: Player 1 Player 2 Player1 Player2
MLG uses an overlay to show the scores in the BOX anyways, so it only affects the mouse- over part. It would however make it hard to sort the replays out, but that's more of a logistic problem.
Maybe this has been repeated many time (sorry haven't read thread) but the technical explanation doesn't make sense.
If I add a single person who competes in MLG I can get every player on my list with no real trouble.
Player A loses his first match to B and falls to the losers bracket. I add B. I add A's next opponent C and B's next one D. Then I also add C and D's previous games. Etc. Eventually I'll get to pool play. Hell, once I get to casted matches I can add the casting accounts used to observe the game and by game 2 I'll have the accounts.
That's ignoring that all the big name players have replays out there somewhere from a TLOpen or NASL or something.
I mean maybe this just hasn't been thought of. Or maybe they hope the a-holes who would disrupt the event are too lazy to do this. But I think its more likely this is trying to open a new avenue for revenue or a condition from Korean players.
On August 01 2011 22:25 MrCon wrote: I'm so sad they won't release replays >< One of my favortie part about MLG was exploring the hundreds of replays, which occupied me for like a month after the event, and finding new interesting stuff I don't understand the risk (perhaps there is), and why they wouldn't rename the players (can be scripted). Bleh.
same here, i'm really really really hoping they reconsider. The fact MLG released replays was a big part of me to purchase goldmembership to support the tournament. Due to timezones (and me being sick too) i was only able to watch a tiny bit live. The VOD system is not really anything special, so was rooting for replays.
please please reconsider MLG There are tons of ways to prevent any risks (as many people posted in this thread)
Replay package was the thing that made the MLG the best event in my eyes. You have brilliant games casted, but as a player. The replay pack was my bread and butter to really use to improve myself.
Now my reason to follow MLG just went away. Sad decision and not pleased by it at all, despite the issues you're claiming.
MLG replay was what made MLG stand out. It could be in a package you bought to watch VODs etc. Sad to see those replays which occupied me for a month after (trying different races etc). Really bad decision what ME is concerned.
I'm not privy to the technical details, but I could see it be the case that their satellite trucks for internet have a limited IP range. And thus, even if they release the replays after this event then it would still give enough information for "hackers" to affect future events.
And i guess it's impossible to completely and confidently "clean" a replay file of the information that MLG is concerned about? I could see that being the case.
I guess they figure the cost of hiring a network engineer to combat DDoS attacks is more than the loss of revenue / loss of customers they'll get from not releasing replays.
On August 02 2011 04:36 rave[wcr] wrote: i hate you MLG for ruining this tournament for me
Hysterics serve no purpose other then renforcing the image of TL as a bunch o' dramallamas.
How do they not know that there is no security risk in the replays yet? How many times do people have to tell them the specific information they contain? They aren't exactly hard to open up and look at the contents to confirm.
Ignoring for a moment the immense stupidity and greed that is enshrined in the failure known as bnet 2.0, this explanation just doesn't make sense. Think of all the people playing at these events that already have replays available, it just doesn't make sense that these MLG replays would represent a grave security risk when most of the players release replay packs themselves all the time.
With only VODs available we will never see the open bracket matches. We will all miss out on matches with Destiny, White-Ra, LiquidTyler, and many other awesome players.
On August 02 2011 12:23 InstantKarma wrote: With only VODs available we will never see the open bracket matches. We will all miss out on matches with Destiny, White-Ra, LiquidTyler, and many other awesome players.
I've already seen an open bracket match cast between MToD and SlayerS_Alicia on sc2casts.com
I have faith we'll be seeing a lot more replay releases. My buddy travelers saved his replays after facing white-ra. Knowing MLG won't be releasing replays any more, the players should prepare and bring a USB if they want their games casted.
I enjoyed watching the replays in first person last MLG, I don't need them commentated, it was really interesting to see how they played. I don't mind paying for them either :3
I havent read through the entire thread, but since the event is over the risk that they were worried about is gone, is it not? Why can the replays not be released a week after the event passes?
On August 02 2011 12:23 InstantKarma wrote: With only VODs available we will never see the open bracket matches. We will all miss out on matches with Destiny, White-Ra, LiquidTyler, and many other awesome players.
I've already seen an open bracket match cast between MToD and SlayerS_Alicia on sc2casts.com
I have faith we'll be seeing a lot more replay releases. My buddy travelers saved his replays after facing white-ra. Knowing MLG won't be releasing replays any more, the players should prepare and bring a USB if they want their games casted.
ToD's games were released by himself and Millenium. It's not MLG.
holding replays during the event makes sense. but after the event they should be released. It's like part of what tournements are about. people work on their strats behind close doors and then bust them out at tourneys where there after the replays are up for grabs. if replays are up for grabs that's just holding back the huge amount of learning still left to be done with starcraft.
I think they can still do their monetized VoDs. A lot of people are too lazy to watch replays and just go to VoDs. yeah maybe some non-MLG casters will pick up the replays but that's just more incentive for MLG to produce good VoDs. Which I think they have the ability to do. there are several games that have been done multiple times by commentators, people just go to who they like the best.
i guess i just hope enough people bought gold passes so that MLG doesn't have to hold replays to make ends meet.
or maybe all the players will just release their replays and side step MLG completely that be pretty kool.
Watching commentated Vods is not the same as going through replays. Going through replays on your own is much faster and more efficient and lets you see whatever is on the map that you want. It's much more educational. Vods are just for entertainment. I understand their reasoning, but I'm really disappointed because there were a lot of great Terran builds that I wanted to rip off.
@MLGSundance Working out the plan 4 releasing Anaheim SC2 replays. @MLGLee and Clap are the guys you want to thank for this. Official word coming soon.
wow this just sucks, i wanna get better and watching replays of pros is something one would do to get better. please release this, its too much paon and hassle not too
On August 24 2011 03:19 sc_oldboy wrote: Does anybody know if they were finally released or did i miss something?
They are still waiting for Blizzard to patch the game... so we will eventually get the replays, but we won't care anymore about these outdated matches (patch/metagame).
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AXtRt.jpg)
. Next minute we going to get some form of internet show with MLG sundance and r1ch battling it out. Let's stop it before it gets there!
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AGykz.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8887/screenshot20110801at155.png)
